Talk:Donji Kraji/Archive 1

Lower Towns have just changed the name
Lower Towns have just changed the name. Nowhere did not get away! It is a significant part of the Bosnian medieval and modern history!

Yahadzija (talk) 19:01, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Which data?
"This article needs additional citations for verification". What & which, please?

Yahadzija (talk) 07:31, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Scope
This region was a medieval province. The information prior or after Middle Ages is unnecessary.--Z oupan 14:13, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Major WP:CFORK WP:SCOPE problems fixed.--Z oupan 14:24, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Map


A new map should be created which shows the approximate extent of Donji Kraji.--Z oupan 15:21, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Issues concerning NPOV, MOS and WP:VERIFY
First thing first: User should learn their ways through Wikipedia terminology, at least to some degree, so that they can stop abusing label "vandalism", "vandalizing", "vandal" against me and my contribution ! I am not "vandal" and my contribution doesn't fall under "vandalism" (WP:VANDALISM) ! User:Ceha appeared on 2 July 2019‎ with an edit consisting of thorough albeit unwarranted removal of name "Bosnia" from text, with an explanation that they are balancing for the sake of neutrality. Is it not bizarre to expect discussion on removal of the name "Bosnia" from the article on historical Bosnian region. I came on 14 July and contributed 2279 KB in several consecutive edits, whit User:Ceha appearing same day, following me from article where he also reverts all my contribution, and reverted everything in one sweep move with following edit-summary: "please stop vandalism, region of Donji Kraji was part of mulitiple medieval entities". User:Ceha should read through WP:FOLLOWING, since he relentlessly following me from one article to another and reverting my edits, as visible per History and dates of contribution.

Thankfully, Wikipedia doesn't appreciate personal opinions of its editors, instead Wikipedia requires references on reliable sources from its editors.

This article has multiple issues, with lots of original research. Most troubling aspect are: original research (WP:OR), verifiability (WP:VERIFY), neutrality (WP:NPOV), and use of weasel words per (MOS:W2W). Already very thinly referenced, this article has a troubling issue with these included references being based on pretty problematic interpretation of its source. Article is riddled with such statements, whose referenced sources telling different story altogether - in other words article is riddled with misleadingly interpreted or deliberately misinterpreted sources - here's few examples:
 * example 1:
 * article statement:
 * "From the 13th century on, the region was more often called Donji kraji Slavonije than Donji kraji Bosne or Donji kraji Bosanski."

is misinterpreted from given source to mislead, which state:
 * source statement:
 * ''"Od 13. stoljeća ne nazivaju se više Donji kraji Salvonije, nego Donji kraji Bosne ili Donji kraji bosanski."
 * (Since 13th century onward name "Donji kraji Slavonije" was never again mentioned, instead region is ever-since called "Donji kraji Bosne" or "Donji kraji bosnaski.").''


 * example 2:
 * article statement:
 * "Vjekoslav Klaić placed the territory of Olfeld west of Usora, based on the 1244 document and citing Konstantin Josef Jireček, who described it to be in the northwest (of medieval Bosnia), towards Croatia, encompassing Kotor on the Vrbanja, Jajce and Ključ on the Sana."

again, misinterpreting of given source to give a misleading notion - source doesn't place region of Donji Kraji "northwest of medieval Bosnia", instead source clearly says "they were somewhere in Northern Bosnia", and goes in full as follows:
 * source statement:
 * "Pita se sada još, gdje su bili ti dolnji kraji ili Olfeld. Sudeć po listini od g. 1244. bili su negdje u sjevernoj Bosni na zapadu oblasti Usori. To nam potvrdjuje i dr. Jireček koji veli: »Dolnji kraj (das Unterland) lag im Nordwesten gegen Kroatien3 (Kotor ander Vrbanja, Jajce, Ključ an der Sana u. s. w.)«. Iz domaćih ćirilicom bosanskom pisanih spomenika znademo, da je u dolnjih krajih bilo mjesto Lušci*, ali to mjesto nije danas poznato."
 * (Now we are still asking, where were those Lower Ends or Olfeld. Judging by the document from 1244, they were somewhere in Northern Bosnia, west from Usora county. This is confirmed by Dr. Jireček who says: "The Lower Ends (das Unterland) lies in the northwestern toward Croatia (Kotor ander Vrbanja, Jajce, Ključ an der Sana u. S. W.)". From the local Cyrillic scripts of the Bosnian written monuments, we know that Lušci village was in the Lower Ends but this place is not known today.)


 * example 3 - of contentious statement where two references exists but both sources remain unreachable for confirmation (also contains weasel words):
 * article statement: "That area included several parishes: Pliva, Zemljička, Vrbanjska and Mrenska, ruled by the Trpimirović, with whose time some authors bind the name Donji Kraji (Lower Ends)."

These kind of deliberate misinterpretations and misleading statements is impossible to replace with the correct ones, simply because User:Ceha and few other IP with a same and complete disregard for reliable sources and other norms set by Wikipedia guidelines, revert in sweeping undo moves, without constructive explanation and/or suggestions.

This is concerning both, closely interrelated and possibly WP:COAT articles, this one and Turkish Croatia article. Every edit which I tried to make in last couple of days, with this goal in mind, including interrelated possibly WP:COAT article Turkish Croatia, was reverted with single bewildering rational "stop with this vandalism". User:Ceha simply refuse any intervention with what he perceives should be how Wikipedia (editors) writes about history of Bosnia and Croatia and using (or not) ethno-national labeling of historical events, personalities, places, properties, etc. This leads to unsolvable, stand off position, which slowly escalating into slow but persistent edit-war and now multiple braking of 3RR. At one point in his edit-summaries he supposedly expressed desire to resolve problems on Talk page, but he didn't notice that I alredy started Talk page discussion in multiple instances long time ago. And when he eventually appeared it turned out that all he wished is to quarrel and exchange baseless accusation, which is exactly what he left behind - a tirade of personal insinuations and accusations (User:Ceha discussion initianation looks like this: Talk:Turkish_Croatia).

Anyway, rest of this article is turned into ground for scent-marking by ethno-national POV, with User:Ceha unwarranted removal of any mention of Bosnia whose historical county this region was. Article is in its entirety populated with slanted WP:OR, weasel words and phrases ("some sources"), excessive editorializing, all quite apparent. Article is at times misleading and lacking both in NPOV, and sufficient context. This article require some outside influence, desirably someone with an advantage of having experience with the dynamic in Balkan scope of the project (administrative prerogatives wouldn't hurt either). Problematic issues as follows:
 * original research, original research, and original research (WP:OR);
 * exceptional claim (WP:EXCEPTIONAL);
 * misleading (Wikipedia:Inaccuracy, Wikipedia:Oversimplification / WP:OVERSIMPLIFY, WP:N, WP:WEIGHT);
 * lacking in refs, misleading interpretation of sources (WP:IRS);
 * some claims lean exclusively at other heavily contested Wikipedia article via wikilinks (WP:CIRC)
 * slanted toward one particular perspective (WP:RNPOV);
 * lacking in NPOV (WP:NPOV);
 * use of weasel words and phrases (MOS:W2W > WP:AWW);
 * excessive editorializing (MOS:W2W > WP:EDITORIAL)
 * lacking in sufficient context for those unfamiliar with the subject (WP:PCR);

I am raising issue by issue here and I will talk on each point with anyone serious and willing to mend problematic parts. Meanwhile I am restoring version prior to User:Ceha unwarranted revert.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  23:25, 17 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Why are you making nationalistic accusations? Point of wikipedia is NPOV, and N in it means neutral, not nationalistic.
 * Area was part of Croatian kingdom as Pliva parish, why are you traying to erase that?

--Čeha (razgovor) 00:55, 20 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I am not interested in editor's opinions, unless editor can provide reliable sources and placed them in appropriate manner in references, editor is advised not to disrupt article and other editors in their constructive contribution. In particular, editor should learn guidelines and how to establish discussion and conduct accordingly, while avoiding following from article to article and reverting (WP:HOUNDING), aggressive ad-hominem tone (WP:NPA), and loaded language (WP:IUC).-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  15:27, 20 July 2019 (UTC)


 * You are accusing others for your own acts. If there is something to discuss, this are the pages were it should be done. --Čeha (razgovor) 18:32, 20 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Entire Talk page of listed issues is here since 17 July, so you either provide sources or walk away, it's a huge project. I am getting tired of nothing but petty ad-hominems, edit-summary abuse, and so on.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  23:31, 21 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Again, be serious and comment on the changes which you find lacking. Ad hominem will bring you nowhere. --Čeha (razgovor) 07:50, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Discussion, round 2
Howdy hello! I recently closed an ANI thread about this page as a content dispute. I am thus pinging the editors involved, with the hope that they will use this page to discuss the issue in a civil fashion and come to a consensus. . Captain Eek  Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 21:12, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Well, we can start with my reproach on issues which I brought up in July (see above previous discussion)?!-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  22:33, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
 * , Can I get a short, 4 sentence, overview of the issue? Captain Eek  Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 22:36, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

I have to include translations !

It's a very thinly referenced article, most troubling issue is with these included references being based on pretty problematic interpretation of its source. Article is riddled with such statements, whose referenced sources telling different story altogether - in other words article is riddled with misleadingly interpreted or deliberately misinterpreted sources - here's for starters:
 * example 1:
 * article statement:
 * "From the 13th century on, the region was more often called Donji kraji Slavonije than Donji kraji Bosne or Donji kraji Bosanski."

is misinterpreted from given source to mislead, which state:
 * source statement:
 * ''"Od 13. stoljeća ne nazivaju se više Donji kraji Salvonije, nego Donji kraji Bosne ili Donji kraji bosanski."
 * (Since 13th century onward name "Donji kraji Slavonije" was never again mentioned, instead region is ever-since called "Donji kraji Bosne" or "Donji kraji bosnaski.").''


 * example 2:
 * article statement:
 * "Vjekoslav Klaić placed the territory of Olfeld west of Usora, based on the 1244 document and citing Konstantin Josef Jireček, who described it to be in the northwest (of medieval Bosnia), towards Croatia, encompassing Kotor on the Vrbanja, Jajce and Ključ on the Sana."

again, misinterpreting of given source to give a misleading notion - source doesn't place region of Donji Kraji "northwest of medieval Bosnia", instead source clearly says "they were somewhere in Northern Bosnia", and goes in full as follows:
 * source statement:
 * "Pita se sada još, gdje su bili ti dolnji kraji ili Olfeld. Sudeć po listini od g. 1244. bili su negdje u sjevernoj Bosni na zapadu oblasti Usori. To nam potvrdjuje i dr. Jireček koji veli: »Dolnji kraj (das Unterland) lag im Nordwesten gegen Kroatien3 (Kotor ander Vrbanja, Jajce, Ključ an der Sana u. s. w.)«. Iz domaćih ćirilicom bosanskom pisanih spomenika znademo, da je u dolnjih krajih bilo mjesto Lušci*, ali to mjesto nije danas poznato."
 * (Now we are still asking, where were those Lower Ends or Olfeld. Judging by the document from 1244, they were somewhere in Northern Bosnia, west from Usora county. This is confirmed by Dr. Jireček who says: "The Lower Ends (das Unterland) lies in the northwestern toward Croatia (Kotor ander Vrbanja, Jajce, Ključ an der Sana u. S. W.)". From the local Bosnian Cyrillic scripts of the written monuments, we know that Lušci village was in the Lower Ends but this place is not known today.)


 * example 3 - of contentious statement where two references exists but both sources remain unreachable for confirmation (also contains weasel words):
 * article statement: "That area included several parishes: Pliva, Zemljička, Vrbanjska and Mrenska, ruled by the Trpimirović, with whose time some authors bind the name Donji Kraji (Lower Ends)."

Let's this conclude this day, and I will continue to bring point-by-point issues tomorrow?-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  22:40, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Just to clarify: I made mistake in writing, in previous (July) discussion - author says: "in local Bosnian Cyrillic scripts of the written monuments" and not "the local Cyrillic scripts of the Bosnian written monuments".-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  22:52, 19 November 2019 (UTC)


 * example 3 - contains contentious statement where two references exists but both sources remain unreachable for confirmation (also contains weasel words). However, Marko Vego and Pavao Anđelić, two most prominent Yugoslav historians of Medieval Bosnia, both Bosnian Croats themselves, don't mention Trpimirović or that they ruled there, at least for the period from cca. 1150 onward, after the name and the polity of Donji Kraji was constituted, which makes those "some historian" even more inappropriate, especially since we have Vego's and Anđelić's account on the name etymology, derivation and appearance, and on area and rulers general history since 12th century ("some authors bind the name Donji Kraji" to Trpimirović has no basis in sources)--- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  23:36, 19 November 2019 (UTC)


 * There's a lot here to wade through.
 * Example 1: I think this is an uncontroversial change that was originally added due to a mis-translation of the text back in 2015. I'll go ahead and make it and add the source I identified at ANI.
 * Example 2: Is there a misunderstanding here as well? I need to check the reference in the current article, but the current revision of the article clearly states "in the northwest (of medieval Bosnia)" so there's really no difference between the two? I think northwest is more precise. My guess is you read the current text as "Donji Kraji was northwest of Medieval Bosnia" i.e. not in Bosnia? But that is not what is in the text.
 * Example 3: I have something else to do but will take a look at this later. SportingFlyer  T · C  02:39, 20 November 2019 (UTC)


 * If you claim for Ex.2 what I think you claim, in that case I never heard of such clumsily sentence structure - in other words, there is no need for confusing readers with parenthesis, nor for the preposition in "xy area in northwestern Bosnia" - it's always "part of northern Croatia" never "part in north of Croatia"; it's always "eastern United Stats", "southern Adriatic Sea", "western coast", "that xy area is situated in northwestern Bosnia", and so on.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  03:30, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * "in the north of the country" is perfectly acceptable phrasing, I think the parentheses didn't help. I've edited both Example 1 and Example 2 into the text as I don't think these are at all controversial changes. Onto example 3... SportingFlyer  T · C  09:54, 20 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Marko Vego is a person who's work or views can not be described as pro Croatian. The names of his books also show strong political bias; "History of Zachlumia from the coming of Slavs to uniting with Bosnia in 1322".
 * As for Klaić phrase; "Vjekoslav Klaić placed the territory of Olfeld west of Usora, based on the 1244 document and citing Konstantin Josef Jireček, who described it to be in the northwest (of medieval Bosnia), towards Croatia, encompassing Kotor on the Vrbanja, Jajce and Ključ on the Sana.", it should be correct. Donji Kraji, as a region is west from Usora, and northwest from medival Bosnia, or Vrhbosna.
 * Words Bosnia in this phrase; ::"Pita se sada još, gdje su bili ti dolnji kraji ili Olfeld. Sudeć po listini od g. 1244. bili su negdje u sjevernoj Bosni na zapadu oblasti Usori. To nam potvrdjuje i dr. Jireček koji veli: »Dolnji kraj (das Unterland) lag im Nordwesten gegen Kroatien3 (Kotor ander Vrbanja, Jajce, Ključ an der Sana u. s. w.)«. , refers to today's' state Bosnia and Herzegovia, nod medieval one.
 * As for Trpimirović rule. That dynasty rules til 1097. It covers Croatia, Dalmatia, Panonia... And large parts of Bosnia. As for Donji Kraji... DAI (administrando di imperio) in that area speaks of Croat Parish of Pliva.
 * Later, that area is source of noble Croatian house of Hrvatinići, as vasals of Šubići family...
 * Slavonian magnates, house of Babonići, also held some territories in north of Donji Kraji, and part of it (they ruled all the way to river Bosnia).
 * In short. These are medieval times, not 21 century states. First sorces of history of that area (DAI) speaks of a parish Pliva in Croatian state ruled by Trpimirovići in middle of 10th. century. It is an area in Upper Vrbas, and Sana valleys, home area of house of Hrvatinići, and border area of mediaval banovinas of Slavonia, Primorje/Croatia and (Vrh)Bosnia. Hrvatinići where Šubić vasals, later they became vasals of Kotromanići, and northern parts of area also belonged to Slavonian nobles Babonići, feud of which was mostly between rivers of Bosnia (and beyond), Sava, Kupa and Kapela/Gvozd mountain.
 * After death of Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić, most prominent noble of house of Hrvatinić, parts of Donji Kraji where transfered to the house of Kotromanić, which ruled as bans (and later kings) in Bosnia. Some towns, like Jajce or Ključ where "king's towns" at the time.
 * There are interesting maps, like this;
 * https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/hr/e/ef/Hrvatska_Pavla_%C5%A0ubi%C4%87a.jpg
 * https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/hr/e/ee/%C5%A0ubi%C4%87evska_Hrvatska.jpg
 * https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.e-sfera.hr%2Fdodatni-digitalni-sadrzaji%2Fc4916d48-08ae-435a-af5d-019a57ba2462%2Fassets%2Fimage%2Fkarta_velikaske_obitelji.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.e-sfera.hr%2Fdodatni-digitalni-sadrzaji%2Fc4916d48-08ae-435a-af5d-019a57ba2462%2F&docid=7O6VrgNEopnZnM&tbnid=CJQ82bvNGbSXNM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwi7ltPU5fjlAhURJFAKHYhZBL4QMwhpKBwwHA..i&w=2210&h=2026&bih=969&biw=1920&q=baboni%C4%87i&ved=0ahUKEwi7ltPU5fjlAhURJFAKHYhZBL4QMwhpKBwwHA&iact=mrc&uact=8
 * https://www.e-sfera.hr/dodatni-digitalni-sadrzaji/c4916d48-08ae-435a-af5d-019a57ba2462/assets/image/karta_velikaske_obitelji.jpg
 * https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Oligarchs_in_the_Kingdom_of_Hungary.png/880px-Oligarchs_in_the_Kingdom_of_Hungary.png
 * https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Realms_of_Hrvatini%C4%87i.png

--Čeha (razgovor) 12:34, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * The information above backs up the source I found here (page 18) and posted on the ANI thread.
 * , the article as it stands is rather unclear and perhaps that's the nature of the sourcing - "Sources judge around the year 1244 (Donji Kraji) was somewhere in northern Bosna to the west of Usori province" - if "northern Bosnia" here means modern-day Bosnia the article should be updated to reflect that?
 * In short, how should the sentence in example 2 read above?
 * Also Čeha what's the best source for the Trpimirović rule? We should mention their rule chronologically. SportingFlyer  T · C  13:28, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * "in the north of the country" is perfectly acceptable - "north of Bosnia" is confusing - so, you did good to edit that bit, right?
 * Also and  I am not interested in opinionated comments, like Ceha's espoused above, on widely accepted and mainstream modern and contemporary Yugoslav and post-Yugoslav scholarship, and especially not interested in espousing, and/or creating article based upon, pro-Croatian views - @Ceha for pro-Croatian views you should open yourself a blog. I am not interested in questioning of widely accepted modern, post-modern and all contemporary mainstream scholarship without any evidence or evident ideological contamination - between Vjekoslav Klajić and Vego/Anđelić precedence falls at Vego and Anđelić per WP:AGEMATTERS.-- ౪ Santa ౪  99°  16:19, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * @Ceha your "cuckoo's egg" which is "Medieval Bosnia = Vrhbosna" also won't pass, now that we have experienced editors involved.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  16:36, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Same is for "Croatian house of Hrvatinić" or hint that Hrvoje Vukčić was somehow a Croat - for this one you will need some really hard evidence in post-modern and contemporary scholarship. As for Trpimirović, in his lifetime "Donji Kraji didn't exist under that name nor as some kind of toponym or any kind of polity, geo entity, and so on.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  16:42, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * When Ceha speaks of Trpimirovic, or any subject of (only Bosnian?) history, the name of the game is "anachronism", or both varieties of historical misplacement, temporal and spatial - these attempts to confuse need relentless scrutiny.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  16:59, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * @SportingFlyer Following sentence is strange: "From the 13th century on, the region lost its historic name(?) Donji kraji Slavonije and became to be known either(?) Donji kraji Bosne or Donji kraji.
 * First, "lost" its "historic" name - name can't be "lost"; and second, is the name "Donji kraji Slavonije" only worthy of being "historic" or is the name "Donji kraji (Bosne)" also worthy of being labeled "historic"? Not only that this in-article new version is confusing from the point of view of historiography, it's also extremely suggestive, leading readers to believe that previous name is somehow more "historic", and maybe even more legitimate, or at least that "new" one is imposed or less historical, and so on.
 * Why is my own construct so repulsive, despite being much more adequate regarding its source-text: "From 12th century onward names derivations "Lower Pannonia", "Lower Slavonia" or "Donji kraji Slavonije" was never again mentioned, and region is ever-since interchangeably called "Donji kraji Bosne" and/or "Donji kraji bosnaski"."; in this version there is no "lost" names, no suggestions, and it can be tweaked, if must, some more as long as it will correspond to its source.
 * As we can see, source doesn't mention "Donji kraji Slavonije" as the only name for that area during the same period, before area became known as "Donji kraji Bosne" and/or "Donji kraji bosnaski", region was called by at least three different derivations "Donja Panonija"/"Lower Pannonia", "Donja Slavonija"/"Lower Slavonia", "Donji kraji Slavonije" - but even more importantly, region has even older derivations of the same name, going back to the Roman times. So, which one is "historic" is POV.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  17:20, 20 November 2019 (UTC)


 * "From 12th century onward names derivations "Lower Pannonia", "Lower Slavonia" or "Donji kraji Slavonije" was never again mentioned, and region is ever-since interchangeably called "Donji kraji Bosne" and/or "Donji kraji bosnaski"."; in this version there is no "lost" names, no suggestions, and it can be tweaked, if must, some more as long as it will correspond to its source. CHARTER OF KING STEFAN DABIŠA TO HIS DAUGHTER STANA, The Charter was created on 26th of April 1395 in Sutjeska. "In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, amin. We, Stefan Dabisha, by the mercy of Lord God, the king of Serbs, Bosnia, Primorje, Zachlumia, Donje Kraje, Zapadne strane, Usore, Soli and Podrinje," Original historical document from  beginning of the 15th century mentione Bosnia and Donje Kraje separated as two entities or area. Mikola22 (talk) 17:47, 20 November 2019 (UTC)


 * There is and this historical document as well: Charter was created on 12th of August of 1434 in Potkreševo. In the first half of XV century. "In name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. We, voyevoda Đurađ, by grace of God voyevoda od Donjih Kraja, nephew of famous and highly respected memory lord herzog Hrvoje, son of knyaz Voislav, with my sons, with knyaz Petar and knyaz Đurađ" Mikola22 (talk) 18:07, 20 November 2019 (UTC)


 * , first, if you really want to contribute to this discussion (and the article) constructively, please see WP:BOTTOMPOST and WP:TPL. Regarding your arguments, please learn about following essential English language Wikipedia policies WP:RSPRIMARY, WP:PSTS, WP:PRIMARY, WP:SECONDARY, WP:TERTIARY, and especially WP:AGEMATTERS. You should read and always keep in mind that Balkan scope is covered by WP:ARBMAC.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  18:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * If you claim something "and region is ever-since interchangeably called "Donji kraji Bosne" and/or "Donji kraji bosnaski" and if that clame is denied with original documents then as an editor and in good faith you  should find historians and books that speak about Donji Kraji in the 14th and 15th century, no, you stick to some book which is legitimate but not in good faith. My historical data belong to the original research which is not allowed but that  not mean that they not exist, it just says that your source is not completely accurate. Mikola22 (talk) 18:55, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * So, correct me if I am wrong: you want us to reject academic historiography and proper historians' interpretation of primary source in favor of your own ?
 * Again, please learn the Talk page layout guidelines. I can't and i don't want to fix your posts every time you comment here.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  19:14, 20 November 2019 (UTC)


 * I cannot find any information about "Donji kraji Bosne" where to find this information? I only know about mention of Donji Kraji. Mikola22 (talk) 19:41, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Can you, please, first stop playing with copy/pasting only portion of colon punctuation marks, and learn how to properly post in TP, and then I will give you source text which you asked. Here, let me offer you a hand: you carefully highlight and copy/paste entire row of colons from previous comment and add one more by typing , rest you can learn here → WP:BOTTOMPOST and WP:TPL.-- ౪ Santa ౪  99°  20:03, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Give me information that talks about "Donji kraji Bosne". Where are they? Mikola22 (talk) 06:25, 21 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Let's go one by one.
 * 1. Best source of Croatian rule in Pliva is DAI https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_upravljanju_carstvom, https://hr.wikisource.org/wiki/O_upravljanju_carstvom/Gl._XXX._Pri%C4%8Da_o_provinciji_Dalmaciji ;
 * Njihova je zemlja bila podijeljena u 11 županija a to su: Hlebiana, Tzenzena, Emota, Pleba, Pesenta, Parathalassia, Brebere, Nona, Tnena, Sidraga, Nina, a njihov ban (boanos) ima (u vlasti) Kribasan, Litzan, Goutzeska. . In Byzantine Greek, laters b is pronunced v, so Pleba in Greek is translated as Pliva, which is name of local river which goes in river Vrbas in town of Jajce. There is also idea that part's of (future ) Donji Kraji where part of Imota parish https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/226788
 * https://books.google.hr/books?id=YIAYMNOOe0YC&pg=PA199&lpg=PA199&dq=king+michael+kresimir&source=bl&ots=l_5qFRqu0D&sig=v39V3R7Mk3N0YXzNCuPFB58RDs8&hl=hr&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=pliva&f=false The district perfects mentioned in charters and inscriptions during the ninth century had by now mulitplied, especialy in the regions in the interior, such as Pset, Pliva and Livno (all in western Bosnia), which had recently fallen under the rule of Croatian dukes, western Bosnia mentioned here is todays state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, not medieval one.
 * 2. sentence should be like this: "Sources judge around the year 1244 (Donji Kraji) was somewhere north of Vrhbosna and west of Usora province, towards Croatia, encompassing Kotor on the Vrbanja, Jajce and Ključ on the Sana."" I think it's neutral, and is basicly giving geographical location of the county.
 * 3. @Santasa, you mentioned Vego, I mentioned his crediability.
 * 4. Medieval Bosnian core is Vrhbosna. Banate in medieval Bosnia included few little provinces which changed hands often, such as Usora (with Soli), Vrhbosna, Donji Kraji...
 * 5. Hrvatinići were a family from Pliva, were subjects of Croatian bans of Šubići, and they had possesions in Croatia, which makes them qualified as "Croatian" house. It's surname is basicly translated as "Little Croats". They were also subjects of Bosnian bans, latter they were proclaimed as "vice-kings" of Bosnia, and last christian king in Bosnia (as Turkish vasal in Lašva) was from their family, so there is a little bit of duality between two states.
 * 6. Trpimirović are a dynasty, not a person. Trpimir who begun that dynasty was a person. Pliva parish is the area from which Donji Kraji originate, posibly with parts from neighbourhoud parishes...
 * 7. I also never heard that Donji Kraji were called Donji Kraji of Slavonia, or Donji Kraji of Bosne. In most of the charters, Donji Kraji and Bosnia (and Usora) are treated in same way. Can you give source of mentioning of Donji Kraji as Donji Kraji of Slavonia/Bosnia? --Čeha (razgovor) 20:40, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * 1. DAI is WP:PRIMARY and is deconstructed and dismanteled by historiography thoroughly - so, it's NOT BEST source for much of anything except for proper historians to give us their interpretation;
 * But whatever DIA is or isn't is irrelevant for this article, which deals with Donji Kraji, and not with fabled Croatian kingdom from 9th to 10th century, when Donji Kraji didn't exist under that name;
 * 2. sentence you are suggesting is unacceptable y because it is based on your misinterpretation of sourced text and is basically WP:OR (it's also horrible Google translation of the source-text, which you than mixed with some of your inventions);
 * 3. you have other avenues (AN for contesting reliability of sources) to dispute Marko Vego's credibility as one of the most respectable Yugoslav medievalist, and acceptable source for history of Medieval Bosnia, and this is not the one;
 * 4. what is "core" of medieval Bosnia is irrelevant - everything else you talk about is your opinion and I personally like to rely on proper historiography for information regarding history and on reliable WP:SECONDARY sources;
 * 5. Hrvatinić, whose most prominent member was titled "Grand Duke of Bosnia, Knyaz of Donji Kraji, Duke of Split", also referred that way in scholarship and works by medievalist Gordan Ravančić, PhD. Assistant director of Croatian Institute of History, and most prominent contemporary Croatian medievalist Neven Budak, were family which served Bosnian bans and kings for the majority of times in which family had its reign, and their reign is decently documented so it shouldn't be great problem for you, or anyone else for that matter, to prove what they were or were not;
 * your deliberation on the family name etymology is your own invention and just another fallacy which isn't grounded in reality - Hrvatin, from which family name Hrvatinić is derived is all-Slavic name, not just Croatian, and doesn't takes root in ethnonym Hrvat (Croat) or as you claim "little Croat", or whatever - not to mention that you don't have source for your etymological games - prominent Serbs of that time were also named Hrvatin, so Serbian lord Hrvatin held Rudine near Gacko while his brother of Vojin held Gacko (1327) - (Tomović 2011, pp. 357, 361.)
 * 6 and 7 are some discernible mingling of your usual anachronistically bungled people, places and eras.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  21:52, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Prominent Serbs of that time were also named Hrvatin that Serb is originally Croatian if is named as Hrvatin, or his ancestor was Croat. "The personal names Hrvatin (since 1301), Hrvajin (since 1475), Hrvo (since 1475), Hrvoje(Croat) (since 1475) and Hrvat(Croat) (since 1475) are also found throughout eastern Herzegovina in the Middle Ages" so they are not Serbs they are Croats. How did you think determine someone's origins in medieval times? It is one of the indicators of personal origin. Mikola22 (talk) 06:45, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Ethnic questions in middle ages are comlex matter. Have you read the article? Those names mostly show Croatian conection, but not alway, yes. --Čeha (razgovor) 09:38, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Let's get back on tracks w/o talking in circles
My three sentences are both removed few days ago by Ceha without explanation, and I am not sure why. SportingFlyer made some, I will put it mildly, harsh comments on my entire version, but basically not being NPOV - so let's try again: (I copy-pasted references via article history page previews so not all of them are here and they are not whole. These below are references of another editor from discussion above, who left them with RefList template)-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  22:22, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Marko Vego derives the name of Donji Kraji from the name of Roman province Lower Pannonia, or later Lower Slavonia, (Hadžijahić - Povijest Bosne u IX i X stoljeću (2004) and Vego - Postanak (1982)) while Pavao Anđelić deduce that the name Donji Kraji (Lower Ends) "also has a certain relation to the rest of (Upper) Bosnia", where the terms "Lower" and "End" refers to a border area that is below from the geographical point of view, and in terms of altitude and terrain configuration, in relation to the rest of Bosnia.(Hadžijahić; Anđelić - Studije (1982) pg 10-11) From 12th century onward names derivations "Lower Pannonia", "Lower Slavonia" or "Donji kraji Slavonije" was never again mentioned, and region is ever-since interchangeably called "Donji kraji Bosne" and/or "Donji kraji bosnaski".(Vukičić-Gošić (1985)) During the reign of Hrvatinić family, since the beginning of 13th century, the territory of Donji Kraji included areas and parishes around Sana river, Glaž, to Grmeč mountain on the west and to the middle course of the Vrbas river on the east, thus covering entire region of Sanica, and later included Uskoplje, Pliva, Luka, Vrbas, Zemljanik (Resnik), Vrbanja, Tribava (Trijebovo), Mel, Lušci and Banjica, and on occasions Dubica.
 * I'm not sure those sentences were in and of themselves problematic - the whole change was about 5,000 bytes so substantial and did introduce some NPOV, so we can go back in and add back the good changes (as has already occurred.) There are parts of the article that could definitely be improved. Most importantly, I don't see much actual conflict here, just misunderstandings, so if everyone involved could do your best to support what you're trying to add with sources and not comment on the opinions of others that would go a lot further to improving the article. I personally have no POV in this and am doing my best to read the sources and determine what facts we should add to the article and what sentences need to be reworded.
 * I'm going to have to check the sources to see if they support what's said there which I will do later - not saying this is right or wrong yet, so please do not take this the wrong way
 * The source doesn't support "never again mentioned" or "ever-since" as these words imply it's been known as such for eight centuries. It also doesn't mention "Lower Pannonia". Perhaps we should just remove the sentence from the article?
 * I'm not sure what's wrong with the sentence "Sources judge around the year 1244 (Donji Kraji) was somewhere north of Vrhbosna and west of Usora province, towards Croatia, encompassing Kotor on the Vrbanja, Jajce and Ključ on the Sana." Santasa99, how would you write the sentence? The only change I would make is to identify at least one of the sources.
 * The sentence I proposed was awkward and I fixed it, the current sentence in the article is "From the 13th century on, texts stopped referring to Donji Kraji as Donji kraji Slavonije, instead calling it Donji kraji Bosne or Donji kraji Bosanski." which I think is accurate. SportingFlyer  T · C  01:33, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * The sentence I proposed was awkward and I fixed it, the current sentence in the article is "From the 13th century on, texts stopped referring to Donji Kraji as Donji kraji Slavonije, instead calling it Donji kraji Bosne or Donji kraji Bosanski." which I think is accurate. SportingFlyer  T · C  01:33, 21 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Hopefully I will reply in shortest possible way - your post is quite OK, don't worry too much:
 * Source:"Sudeć po" as "Source judge" is clumsy and bad translation - sources don't judge, historians do, so it should be "Judging from the sources/documents"
 * "Vrhbosna" is not mentioned in any of the source texts ! Not in any context, way, shape and form, and I am absolutely certain that you won't find any which mention it in this context, that's just another of Ceha's "cuckoo's egg" in attempt to promote his deep feeling that Bosnia should be reduced to some small parish within the medieval state, and we shouldn't insist in putting it in the article - "Vrhbosna" is very specific entity and is just one of the small parishes of Medieval Bosnian state.
 * Just a small tweak and mostly as you already suggested upon of my initial post, and I already agreed with you in the beginning of "Round 2" discussion (I am not sure why you changed it again, practically reverting yourself) - here's sentence which corresponds to its source-text: "From primary sources, around the year 1244, (Donji Kraji) was somewhere north in Bosnia, west of Usora province and towards Croatia, encompassing Kotor on the Vrbanja, Jajce and Ključ on the Sana."
 * NOTE 1: This is rephrased sentence from translated source-text, but note that the source is more than 100 years old and even if take it in its entirety as literally translated we wouldn't need to fear of copy rights infringement.
 * NOTE 2: If your mentioning of "Vrhbosna" originate from my article edit which Ceha reverted, than what happened is just a misunderstanding - I have mentioned "Upper Bosnia" but not in context of location (like in this sentence which describes its geo location), instead I mentioned it in context of etymology as it is discussed by historian Anđelić (and later mentioned in Hadžijaić's) very specifically in that regard in his own deliberation on name origin, so he found that it could be some relation between "Donji" (lower) and "Gornji" (upper) in terms of usual Balkan's topographical orientation (rivers have Upper course and Lower course - Donja i Gornja Bosna, Drina, Sava, etc; villages, plateaus and plains also have "Gornji Milanovac", "Donji Milanovac", etc)
 * This last point is perfect. (I hope that I covered it all and in correct order, if I made some lapses in understanding or explanations, you will ask me tomorrow)-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  02:58, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * And, however, I missed one point:
 * You are referring to this:
 * -"Od 13. stoljeća ne nazivaju se više Donji kraji Salvonije, nego Donji kraji Bosne ili Donji kraji bosanski."
 * -and my literal translation and closest rephrasing was (English): "Since 13th century onward name "Donji kraji Slavonije" was never again mentioned, instead region is ever-since called "Donji kraji Bosne" or "Donji kraji bosnaski".
 * And you are right, the source doesn't says "never again mentioned" or "ever-since", but that doesn't mean exactly not supporting it, because source says "ne nazivaju se više" - literally "they called no more" - only lapse is "onward" and "ever-since", and you are really absolutely correct, that could imply all this time, from 12th c till present day.
 * There is no possible reason to remove it and deprive readers of the info, especially since you gave us an excellent version in: "From the 13th century on, texts stopped referring to Donji Kraji as Donji kraji Slavonije, instead calling it Donji kraji Bosne or Donji kraji Bosanski.", just scratch "on", change "Donji Kraji" with "it"/"region"/"area"/"territory", and add all three derivations "Donja Panonija", "Donja Slavonija" (you asked which source says Donja Panonija and Donja Slavonija - Anđelić and Hadžijahić, former or both, not sure now), and "Donji kraji Slavonije", because source says were used (there is, really, no possible reason to deprive readers of the info on all name derivations), and you have perfect and informative sentence - "From the 13th century, texts stopped referring to it/region/area as "Donja Panonija", "Donja Slavonija", "Donji kraji Slavonije", instead calling it "Donji kraji Bosne" or "Donji kraji Bosanski".-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  03:40, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * If you can't find Anđelić, you can download it here to check it.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  05:13, 21 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Santasa, why are you commenting me instead of the article? That's not going to rase "good faith".
 * Vrhbosna is core of Banate in medieval Bosnia.
 * Marko Vego derives, that is his personal opinion. The same did Pavo Anđelić. There are no primary sources on that. Could you, please, find a chapter where the region is called Donji Kraji Bosne or Donji Kraji Bosanski, or mention of them as Donji Kraji Slavonije?
 * If not, I think that that sentence is a surplus. If sources egist, that phrase "From the 13th century on, texts stopped referring to Donji Kraji as Donji kraji Slavonije, instead calling it Donji kraji Bosne or Donji kraji Bosanski. is ok.
 * As for sentence From primary sources, around the year 1244, (Donji Kraji) was somewhere north of upper Bosnia, west of Usora province and towards Croatia, encompassing Kotor on the Vrbanja, Jajce and Ključ on the Sana. could be also good translation. Vrhbosna litteraly means upper Bosnia, where Vrh equals mountain top. Sentence is basicly geolocation.
 * As for your deleted sentences, I didn't have anything to do with it, nor I can't find it anywhere in history changes? --Čeha (razgovor) 09:57, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Vrhbosna is not Upper Bosna. Vrhbosna is located in geographical Upper Bosna (area from Vrhbosna to Vranduk, roughly, if you want to find more detailed information, check Google Books), and is one of many župa's in the region of Bosna. Vrhbosna literally means "the peak of Bosnia". Mhare (talk) 12:38, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * exactly my point, "Upper Bosna" is geographical term just like "Upper Drina", "Upper Una", "Upper Mississippi", "Upper Columbia", "Upper Danube", and so on - geographical areas around the significant rivers are always named upon directionality and rivers' course stage, so we have Upper and Lower Neretva. On the other hand we have name of the parish "Vrhbosna" which is organizational, that is political and ecclesiastical term. Upper Bosna isn't Vrhbosna, that's another fallacy.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  18:57, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * three points:
 * if source-text say one thing, we can rephrase that to avoid copy-right infringement, but we won't tell something else, we will tell exactly what the source-text says - that's the general rule of the project, English wikipedia;
 * your evaluation of the source authors' validity is your own, and isn't relevant at all, unless you have a some friggin' hard evidence to prove that they are unfit for use in English wikipedia (as I explained to you in previous section, you have avenues to explore that, I am referring you to AN for sources); I really do understand that you strongly feel that Bosnian and Croatian topics should only use, as you said it above in previous discussion section, "pro-Croatian" sources and authors, but that's your problem not of this community.
 * regarding your rhetorical gymnastics with names: you need to understand that "Vrhbosna" isn't "Upper Bosna", Vrhbosna is the name of the organizational unit, at the time both political and ecclesiastical, while Upper Bosna is geographical place, a toponym! It's completely another matter that Vrhbosna name etymology probably find the name root in geographical terminology, that is, when the inhabitants of the area decided to organize themselves politically, they probably chose Upper Bosna toponym as their reference point for naming their new parish. Don't confuse these two things, and don't confuse etymology with the political unit.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  19:32, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * @Ceha, I can't say anymore if you are doing this in "good faith" or not, but I will give you information on organizational affairs of medieval Bosnian state (both banat and kingdom) in political term, so that we can end this debate on "Vrhbosna is core of Medieval Bosnia" which is fallacious claim - like all medieval states Bosnia too was comprised of several smaller organizational units called in Bosnia of that time "oblasti"/"zemlje" (counties/lands). The following list were "oblast"/"zemlje" of both banat (later phase) and kingdom: Ban's/King's Land, Donji Kraji, Usora, Soli, and Hum. That's it, threr are no other "oblast"/"zemlja", and there are no Vrhbosna because Vrhbosna was only a parish, just one of many parishes within Ban'/King's land!-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  20:00, 21 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Let's go one by one, again.
 * @Mhare, yes, and not. Upper Bosnia can be geographical term, but in medieval times, that kind of names can be (and in particular example is) province names. On this map Vrhbosna is in yellow (borders could be debated), as "core" Bosnia; https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/hr/b/bd/Bosna.jpg that's upper range of river Bosnia, right?
 * In this map it's light green http://cro-eu.com/galerija-fotografija/albums/userpics/10001/Sl_%202_%20Zupe%20Lika%2C%20Gacka%20i%20Krbava%20u%20srednjem%20vijeku.jpg
 * And in this https://docplayer.net/docs-images/87/97423771/images/164-0.jpg it's small area around today's Sarajevo, the area which before Turks had the name Vrhbosna, again parts around upper stream of river Bosnia.
 * Vrhbosna is coined from two words, vrh and bosna, where vrh means mountain top, or sorce or upper stream, and Bosna refers to the river. Basicly, Vrhbosna is upper Bosnia, and in that area exists parish with the same name....
 * @Ceha, I think you lost yourself in those maps. Basically, Vrhbosna is not upper Bosna, and they are not synonymous. Please, check literature. You are mixing a lot of the stuff. That in "yellow" is not Vrhbosna. Stick to well established sources, Santasa has provided really good ones and very authoritative for medieval Bosnia. Mhare (talk) 18:26, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * @Mhare, I'm sorry, but you are wrong :D That yellow is Vrhbosna, original core of Banate in Bosnia, later mostly ban's land, with probable exclusion of Lašva and Brod Parishes. I realy don't see what should be of the issue. Vrhbosna is one of the provinces in banate, such as Usora (ok, Usora was some times in 13th and 14th century part of Mačva Banate, and in some times independent of Banate in Bosnia, but...). I offered synonim, as for geolocation. What is the name of that yellow area if not Vrhbosna or Upper Bosnia, which would be aprouvable? Ban's land? Bosnian core? --Čeha (razgovor) 18:10, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * You don't even try to find the information. You clearly don't do well in these matters. Vrhbosna is territory that covers today's Sarajevo. That what you refer as Vrhbosna is Upper Bosna, just one of many parts of whole region of Bosna. Vrhbosna is župa centered in confluences of rivers Miljacka and Željeznica and it's territory is marked by mountains Romanija, Jahorina, Trevebić, Bjelašnica and Igman. There is a long way and many other župa's to Vranduk, and one of the first one is Vogošća. Now, open one of your many maps and see where is Vogošća, and where is Vranduk. I won't discuss it anymore about this matter. Mhare (talk) 19:04, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * @Mhare, province/land and Parish can have same name. Look at this map; https://docplayer.net/docs-images/87/97423771/images/164-0.jpg
 * Map in lower left angle, called Župe najstarije Bosanske države u X. st. There is a parish called Bosna around Visoko. Vrhbosna was larger area than today's Sarajevo canton, altough medieval name for Sarajevo was Vrhbosna. Again, I don't have any problem in calling the area of cca today's Zenica and Sarajevo cantons as Upper Bosnia. What is the name of ban/king's land in medieval Bosnia? Upper Bosnia, Vrhbosna, or? --Čeha (razgovor) 17:52, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * ps. there is a cute map showing medieval territories in territory of todays BiH; https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Historical_regions_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina.svg/250px-Historical_regions_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina.svg.png look at the names in gray. --Čeha (razgovor) 18:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * @Santasa, 1. that's the point, yes.
 * 2. I said that Marko Vego work is not historicly correct, is biased, and as such should be further confirmed. What's the problem with that?
 * 3. There exists differences between Upper Bosnia and Vrhbosna, but those differences are pretty small and two words can be treated basicly as synonimes. In upper sentence we are trying to geolocate territories of Donji Kraji, right? What's the point of that sentence?
 * 4. As for your last sentence, Vrhbosna/Upper Bosnia is Ban's/King's land, core territory... It's the name for that kind of territory (borders aside) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrhbosna, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counties_of_the_Independent_State_of_Croatia (look at the map and Vrhbosna Parish)

Sources - check it, rephrase it, don't change its content & context
Three or four sentences, 3-4 days, enormous discussion and we still don't have finite results, which adequately carries informations from the source text !? Here's sources crucial in this debate:
 * Pavao Anđelić - Studije o teritorijalno-političkoj organizaciji srednjevjekovne Bosne - pg. 11 (Donji Kraji) and pg. 238 (Donji Kraji)
 * Vego - Postanak srednjevjekovne bosanske države - pg 38-42 (Donji Kraji)
 * Hadžijahić - Povjest Bosne u 9. i 10. stoljeću (Hadžijahić just reiterating Anđelić and Vego, per his footnotes) - pg 133 (Donji Kraji)

with those of Jiričik who cited Klajić, which we already discussed both its translation and phrasing, and we have all the necessary ingredients for decent prose which corresponds to these sources, without changing its context and meaning, and without inventing some stuff or skipping to include other.

@SportingFlyer, based on these sources, we should at least be capable of agreeing on these two, it seemed that we were really close in above discussions: - "From primary sources, around the year 1244, (Donji Kraji) was somewhere north in Bosnia, west of Usora province and towards Croatia, encompassing Kotor on the Vrbanja, Jajce and Ključ on the Sana." - "From the 13th century, texts stopped referring to it/region/area/territory as "Donja Panonija", "Donja Slavonija", "Donji kraji Slavonije", instead calling it "Donji kraji Bosne" or "Donji kraji Bosanski."

Let's check it, properly translate it, rephrase it if it's properly translated and properly rephrased (unless they are free from copy-right infringement), and use it without changing its content & context, and let's wrap this one up.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  22:52, 21 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Can you scan those pages and put tem on imgur or something like that? I would realy like to see primary sources of that, as for lines;
 * - "From primary sources, around the year 1244, (Donji Kraji) was somewhere north of upper Bosnia, west of Usora province and towards Croatia, encompassing Kotor on the Vrbanja, Jajce and Ključ on the Sana."
 * - "From the 13th century, texts stopped referring to it/region/area/territory as "Donja Panonija", "Donja Slavonija", "Donji kraji Slavonije", instead calling it "Donji kraji Bosne" or "Donji kraji Bosanski."- this line is basicly wrong. Firstly, Donji Kraji where part of Roman province of Dalmatia, not Panonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia#/media/File:Pannonia03_en.png, and Donja (Lower) Slavonija is that one by the Danube, noth that one in Upper stream of Vrbas (and Sana). Is there any mention of area before 13th century as Dolnji Kraji? To my knowledge, first mention of them is in 1244 with Usora and Soli, as one of elemental parts of Banate in Bosnia, in charter of king Bella IV to Bosnian Bishop (dominican Ponsa) has the rights of collecting church taxes in Usora, Soli and lower parts. https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/317236 page 29. And in that chapter, there is name Olfed, which comes from hungarian name Alföld, which means lowlands. No mention of Panonia, or Slavonia at all... I would put the line "From the 13th century, texts started referring to it/region/area/territory as Olfeld, which comes from hungarian name Alföld, which means lowlands, and from which low parts-Donji Kraji are derived" --Čeha (razgovor) 18:02, 22 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Enough time has passed since my last discussion, and since you are making demands that are not sensible, I am now including these two lines into the article this TP. Since you can't make sensible objection (not to mention that you are asking me to infringe author/publisher's copy-rights), and since those two objections directed specifically at these two sentences are insensible:
 * - first, demand that the word "upper" be included, although it doesn't exists in source text, while it has no other clear reason beside some kind of your personal preference which subtly changes context and push POV;
 * - and second is your own opinion, your own interpretation of what's in some maps, or more precisely your WP:OR, in which I am not required to be even interested - I am using these proper historians (from listed sources) for proper interpretation of history and its primary sources.
 * You have your opinion, and you are free to act as you please.
 * After all these months of mistrust and mistreatment, and after you just expressed further mistrust in my literal reading and translation of these sources, you are now making such an incredible demanding requests, exceeding all that English wikipedia guidelines advise. But here's my advice to you - if you can't find some online version of these texts to inform yourself on its content, and since you don't trust me, you can find these authors in your first next-door library in Croatia (even if you are residing in small town) easily because these are highly regarded academics in all former-Yugoslavia countries as well as internationally. But I also advise you to acquire or get acquainted with those authors works, because I intend to use it throughout of this article, of xcourse with some additional authors if such need arise.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  02:07, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I am wrapping this one up, and intend to archive it in several hours form now, to clear TP space for further edit-discussion.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  02:26, 23 November 2019 (UTC)


 * You are doing that without consensus. Lower Panonia is qouted only by Vego, that territory was not part of Roman Panonia, and you are declining to give, quote or scan any other sources which would back up that.
 * As for first qoute, you changed it. Article speaks of Usora Province, and for you it is disputable to speak of Vrhbosna province? Ok, than original translation should stay. I was hopping for compromise, I was traying to find synonims, but you clearly don't wont to cooperate.
 * In every normal discusion there is a rule that someone who is making the claims must prove them, not the other way round. --Čeha (razgovor) 18:00, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Please respect TP
@Ceha, please respect discussion - editors SportingFlyer and Mhare both accepted, sources and my arguments, (Mhare in his last written post, and Flyer had not object on my last proposition for a long enough time) - that's consensus. Now you continue to sabotage TP discussion with this relentless circumlocution. You have no sources to confirm what you are arguing - you are expressing just your own opinion, and what you think historians' credential in discussion are, and you are basically asking that we drop their (legit historians') proper interpretation of history (and primary sources) in favor of your own interpretation !? Your arguments boils down to what you like and what you don't like. Regarding "Upper Bosna" inclusion - you are relentlessly trying to include that word despite the fact that word is not mentioned in the source text in that particular context. When I tried, before this discussion, to include mention of "Upper Bosna" in source proper context, you originally reverted it more than 3 times without any discussion, and now you are cherry-picking that topological term from my previous edits, and after I pointed at it in the source, and you want to use it completely out of context - sorry, fellow editor, just like your insistence on Hungarian language to label Donji Kraji as "Oldfeld", this too is just yet another way to distract and confuse, in attempt to distance medieval Bosnian state as far as possible from Donji Kraji without any reasonable and sourced argument. Please respect TP and restrain from reverting thees few sentences, without reason and after 3-4 days of painstaking discussion over sources, because it seem as if you are trying to sabotage any further work on this article by making it impossible, for starters, to even go through these 2 or 3 lines of text.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  07:05, 24 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Santasa, the point of talk pages is not to bring persons with the same opinion, and than claim quantitave majority, this is not a vote, but to find a compromise. There are two issues:
 * 1. that Donji Kraji are north from Bosnian core (upper Bosnia, Vrhbosna, or whatever you want to call it), and that you are rephrasing the whole sentence by replacing preposition of with preposition in. The sentence is clear. It's about geopositioning Donji Kraji. It's the lands towards Croatia (core), west of Usora, and north of Bosnia (core), or Vrhbosna, UpperBosnia, in any way you like to call the province. Otherways there would be no need to mention Usora province, or towns which are in it. It is in todays north Bosnia and Herzegovina, or Bosnian Krajina. Sentence should be clear.
 * 2. It's very simple, that statment is not correct. You can't quote anybody. Is there any need to qoute osman historical Aali; https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aali who calls Bosnians Croats? Donji Kraji weren't ever part of roman Panonia, nor were called that. Parts around Jajce were recorded in DAI as part of Pliva parish, not something else. Glaž, Sana, Vrbas (and even Dubica) where part of medieval Slavonia (and Zagreb diocese), but they were not part of original Donji Kraji province, nor they had anything with it's name...
 * I gave you map from ex yugoslav atlas which clearly shows Donji Kraji province https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/hr/e/ef/Hrvatska_Pavla_%C5%A0ubi%C4%87a.jpg where is the problem?--Čeha (razgovor) 18:14, 24 November 2019 (UTC)


 * This insinuations and claims are part of the philosophy that I warned about on TP of Turkish Croatia. I was just waiting for the sentence "Bosnians are Croats". Čeha on several occasions showed he doesn't respect the literature, and quite frankly, has said some things that showed he does not understand the matter. As this is encyclopedia, we are not here to publish our own views or thinking. Instead, we should use best available sources. And I am so sorry, that does not include internet portals, hosted images and so on. Mhare (talk) 09:53, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Ad hominem, when you are out of arguments? :)
 * I gave you maps from yugoslav atlas, and a bunch of references... I'm realy sorry that you can't have normal discussion, without repeating a few authors as a Holly letter... --Čeha (razgovor) 15:59, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * No Ceha, User:Mhare did not resort to ad-hominem against you, he is focused and up exact up to on point, describing your engagemts by citing WP policies and guidelines. Your behavior is well documented as disruptive, and described as such not only by other neutral editors but admins as well - in this very thread you carelessly and overbearingly accused me of "bring(ing) persons with the same opinion" without a shred of evidence, which is in breach of WP:ARBMAC as WP:Casting aspersions, and that alone should be enough for some kind of sanction - I guess you referring to Mhare but maybe also to SportingFlyer, which is in line with your habitual dispersion of conspiracy, which you and Silveri(j)e claim exist between various admins and myself, and against entire Croatian nation. Up until this point you may have been encouraged by my failure to put together a good AN, but I am getting better, while you are continuously showing disrespect for policies and guidelines of this project. You are sabotaging Talk page, and you are practically blackmailing editors into accepting your interpretations and opinions or else, you are ready to drag them into edit-war.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  16:39, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I realy do not know what to say to this reapeating acusations. Wikipedia should be NPOV, so I'd like to (again) call you to put aside your POV, and stop producing toxic atmosphere. For example, you wanted to include name reference to Lower Pannonia (your post of 20th November), but when I gave you map which clearly shows that Donji Kraji were not part of Roman Panonia, you didn't appologise, you didn't even say that you are sorry or thanks, you just  changed your oponinon and quoted Jelena Mrgic. You are constantly calling me names, but you do not have arguments to respond to my questions or suggestions. Could you please stop? Your behavior is... unWikipeadian to  say the least. --Čeha (razgovor) 19:09, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I will repeat again, you did told wrong facts about names of regions and clearly had misconceptions about Vrhbosna and Upper Bosna and the whole subject. I am sorry if you interpreted that as an attack, maybe I should used different wording. I've told you where are you making errors, and you ignored that, and just continued throwing maps at us, and speculating (!) about how to name things. I won't engage in that kind of discussion, and your actions can be interpreted as sabotaging, for sure. Mhare (talk) 19:21, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * This is a disscusion, I was giving you arguments, and am trying to be NPOV and reach a consensus. I am realy sorry for your lack of good faith. --Čeha (razgovor) 21:00, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Donji Kraji mediation
please, Sir, would you now be able to make some review of Donji Kraji TP (from section which you initiated: Talk:Donji_Kraji) so that you can give us some inputs from your perspective - editor Ceha sabotaging all that we discussed for three long days, in which editors Mhare, editor Flyer, editor Ceha and myself all participated to various degree. Editor Ceha simply has no regards for any arguments evident in sources, and employs variety of circumlocutory rhetorical tactics, which now uses as an excuse for "round 2" of reverts and with obvious intent to edit-war if we do not comply with his requests and personal opinions, based on what they believe TP and things discussed there (authors-historians and sources) should be interpreted. Now editor even accuses me of "bring persons with the same opinion" to the TP, which is blatant breach of WP:Casting aspersions since editor was, of course, unable to produce any evidence. I hope you will be able to pars through the necessary information and find out what exactly is going on and what is the right/best way to resolve this stall. Since, discussion is certainly long you may have some questions - I will wait for your response, thanks.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  05:10, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * , As I see it, the debate concerns one line of text From the 13th century, texts stopped referring to it as "Donja Panonija", "Donja Slavonija", "Donji kraji Slavonije", instead calling it "Donji kraji Bosne" or "Donji kraji Bosanski. You are using this 1985 set of papers as a reference. Can you provide the exact paper that discusses that? It would probably clear things up quicker. disagrees with the sentence, for reasons that aren't quite clear to me, perhaps they could explain in 3 sentences or less?
 * As a general note, "primary sources" has been tossed around a bunch. In this context, a primary source would be something like a letter from the 13th century. That of course isn't allowed, we need modern scholarship. Captain Eek  Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 05:51, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I understand that for uninvolved editor it must be painful to see this TP, but it's this or AN with editors who bring strong personal feelings into editing Wikipedia.
 * It concerns more than just that one line - it concerns refusal to accept historians without any evident reason, it concerns insistence on changing context with inclusion of unmentioned terms, places displaced geographically and temporally, with circumlocutory avoidance to accept obvious info presented in sources, playing games with prepositions to change context, interpretation of what amount to consensus, presentation of personal preferences, interpretation and opinion as condition to avoid edit-war.
 * The sentence you are asking for is contextual sources description: post-modern historian Marko Vego (who is Croat like our fellow editor Ceha, who reject him on grounds of not being "pro-Croatian"(!?) discuss the name and location in his book from 1982. pp38-42, more specifically at pp.38, where he states how that territory is known in primary sources from earlier times as Donja Panonija and Donja Slavonija, later Donji Kraji Slavonije. In link you provided above (which serves as ref in article), Vukičić and Gošić state on, pp.75 (available in snippet preview here, that : "Od 13. stoljeća ne nazivaju se više Donji kraji Salvonije, nego Donji kraji Bosne ili Donji kraji bosanski." (English: "Since 13th century name "Donji kraji Slavonije" was never again mentioned, instead region was called "Donji kraji Bosne" or "Donji kraji bosnaski."). So, instead of using two sentences I used one sentence with contextual usage of two references (and to phrase it in a way to avoid copy-right infringement) - if I placed Vego into reference at the end of the paragraph than we can move it behind this statement, however statement is good and shouldn't be problematic in any conceivable way, not the least as WP:OR for instance, as we are still in solid ground when using context in proper manner.
 * Meanwhile, I have not yet come to the point where I am going to use the work of historian Jelena Mrgic, and her 2002. book titled ""Donji Kraji, which is entirely devoted to this medieval county - at pp.27 and pp.28 she reject existence of "Donji Kraji Slavonije" altogether, and reject previous etymological discussions among historians, such as Klajić, Jiriček and even Vego, and derives it from geography (altutude and topography) and political demarcation as a product of solely local Bosnian origin (Mrgić is Serbian and pretty immersed into "pro-Serbian" interpretation of Balkan history, so if she is willing to give some credit to medieval Bosnians and their state in this regard, we should listen).
 * But editor Ceha's denial of that line is just distraction, editor reject sources whenever that source goes against what he think should be included into prose - in this case he reject Marko Vego, without any reasonable argument or evidence whatsoever, and even goes s far to claim that Vego is unacceptable because he is not "pro-Croatian" (I think in his first post at the beginning under "Round 2"), meanwhile Vego was, and his work still is, one of the most prominent medievalist recognized for his work bot domestically and internationally. Editor Ceha also tries to change context with some of his own interpretations, little inventions and deliberate confusions with geography and etymology, which is behavior we can discuses, if you are interested, in follow-up to this one.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  13:35, 25 November 2019 (UTC) (The last edit was my 10 thousandth Emoji u1f386.svg -- ౪ Santa ౪  99°  14:00, 25 November 2019 (UTC))
 * It's very simple. Area was border in medieval and frequently changed hands. Province had it's name, and it wasn't anytime called Donji Kraji Bosanski, or Donji Kraji Slavonije. Vego (nationality irrelevant) was a member of communist party, and his works had ideological background. There is no primary source, which would confirm his conclusions.
 * As for Mrgić, I agree that the name (Donji Kraji) comes from the valleys between the hills. I'm just against any additional label, because we do not have proof for it.
 * As for Klaić, it's also very simple. He wrote geolocation of the territory, and the same thing goes for others...
 * @Captain Eek Did you catch my point? --Čeha (razgovor) 16:21, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * No, Ceha, what you like and dislike is irrelevant, as well as your opinion. On the other hand your behavior is quite relevant as well as your condescending tone and WP:OWNERSHIP attitude.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  16:44, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Sanatasa, you are constantly discussing me, and this page should be about the arguments and Donji Kraji. Have you read this and this? It's your link, which describes your behaviour, not mine. Please, can we talk about the topic, and not wikipedia editors? --Čeha (razgovor) 18:54, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * , Please stop attacking Ceha. Comment on content, not contributors. Do not mention Ceha's conduct again, unless they do something egregious which would warrant a trip to ANI. But I don't think that is likely. We're here to iron out a linguistic and historical dispute, not throw punches.
 * I would opt to not use Vego, and instead use the more modern scholarship of Mrgic. So what does that mean for content? Do we add anything? Or keep it the way it is? Captain Eek  Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 02:39, 26 November 2019 (UTC)


 * OK, I am, after all, too tired and too friggin' distraught after being endlessly drilled for 4 days (have you even read whole thing, one can only take so much) and lead by the nose by one editor who, I strongly believe, has no intention of discussing and/or accepting any of the arguments for which two other editors and myself worked and tried to "iron-out" 3-4 sentences for four days, so that I am now keeping my eye balls in one and half of a brain in the other jar.
 * I am not going to address editor at all anymore, just like smart cookie editor User:Mhare who decided to refuse of being dragged into endless loop of senseless request (like one in which editor requests scanned pages of my books uploaded somewhere for proof! how about that for "good faith") and rejections. However, since you are a mediator, the best way to continue discussion would be if you are willing to take over arguing, and I will only suggest bits of source text form authors whose credential are indisputable, unless some evident flaw can be presented - we can argue between two of us on such and similar issues. This way we are going to avoid any interaction, let alone trowing punches.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  06:20, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Vego 1982 is not modern enough, you want Mrgić - here's Mrgić:
 * Rodonačelnik vlasteoske bosanske porodice Hrvatinića, knez Hrvatin Stjepanić, nosio je 1299. godine titulu "kneza Donjih Kraja bosanske zemlje" (comes partium provinciarum inferiorum terre Bosnensis; comes de inferioribus confiniis Bosne). Stoga, porijeklo ovog termina ne može da se veže za Ugarsku i "Donje karjeve Slavonije", kako je mislio Vego, več je u pitanju domaći naziv za dio bosanske države. Epitet Donji oslikava nadmorsku visinu ove oblasti, dok ime Kraji svakako označava pogranične oblasti (Lat. confinii) bosanske države. - Mrgić, 2002, pp.28
 * Now, we can translate this bit and rephrase it, if you can argue for its inclusion into prose. But before we get to work over this one, shouldn't you check editor's most recent edits in the article history, where they removed everything that was agreed upon between Flyer, Mhare and myself, and included additional unsupported claims and weasel words.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  07:16, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * , history isn't exact science. No doubt that WP:AGEMATTERS when we shovel through historiography in search for the best sources to put in reference, but all historians' research is important, and in this case, all authors from mid-19th century Klajić, all the way to 2002 Mrgić, including Anđelić 1960'-70', Vego 1970'-80', Hadžijahić 1980'-00', worked their way through their historical searches by relying on those before them, and they all used to correct each other, attempting to upgrade on the works of their predecessor, and improve picture of the pasts. However, they all also making mistakes of their own, all the time.
 * So, in essence, there is no ultimate truth in historical researches, there is only sometimes blurred, sometime sharp and focused picture but which is always just a patchwork made of bits and pieces of all these authors findings through time.
 * The only difference between, say, Klajić's research and Mrgić research is in evolution and advancement of methodology and and evermore interdisciplinary approach. However contemporary post-modern historian like Mrgić will never even think of rejecting Klajić, as the first modern Croatian historian, who worked in second half of the 19th century, just because she may think that he became irrelevant.
 * For our article Mrgić's book "Donji Kraji" (2002) is a great source, the best which I can think of, but if we want to develop this article properly we need all of them, from Klajić to Anđelić, to Vego and Hadžijahić, and everyone else who researched this subject and is credible, mainstream historian with good credential.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  09:24, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I think we should concentrate in following issues:
 * 1. Is there a mention of Donji Kraji before 1244 charter? If not, the sentance how were they called before that lacks any meaning.
 * 2. Are addional labels realy necessary? Name of the province is Donji Kraji, possesive form is not recorded, and as such it should be not used.
 * 3. If there is consensus in 1 and 2, than phrase From the 13th century, texts started referring to the territories as "Donji kraji", in the meaning of lower parts, valleys between the mountains. should be enough.
 * 4. As for From primary sources, around the year 1244, Vjekoslav Klaić citing Konstantin Josef Jireček placed the territory somewhere north of medieval Bosnian core, west of Usora county and towards Croatia, encompassing Kotor on the Vrbanja, Jajce and Ključ on the Sana. bold part is opened for discusion? I think that the phrase should be good, would anyone like to phrase it better?
 * @Santasa, history must rely on some sources, it's shouldn't be part of todays politics... --Čeha (razgovor) 21:19, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I simply refuse to discuss unwarranted contextual interference into materials provided by literature, except rephrasing to avoid copy-rights infringements, any other removal of important and informative bits of text, or invention of terms, names, phrases and context unsupported by literature is sheer POV pushing.
 * When editor User:Ceha was cautioned for his tactics here on TP, they successfully incited User:CaptainEek into accusing me of attacking editor Ceha, while requesting me to stop with the suggestion that ANI (which Captain already removed once) is unlikely. Meanwhile, editor Ceha, who complains about my discussion of his tactics, himself in his postings here expressed some of his views and insinuations of my motives and behavior:
 * Santasa, history must rely on some sources, it's shouldn't be part of todays politics; and earlier on achieved level of consensus between Flyer, Mhare and myself: Santasa, the point of talk pages is not to bring persons with the same opinion, and than claim quantitave majority,...; implying all kind of stuff, most notably in first example that my insistence on literature and proper reading of it is somehow politically driven, and in second example that I have solicited other editors to agree with me or that I invited other two participants in discussion through canvasing; similar pattern appeared in exchange with User:Mhare who warned on editor Ceha ideological POV pushing, after editor Ceha argued: 2. It's very simple, that statment is not correct. You can't quote anybody. Is there any need to qoute osman historical Aali who calls Bosnians Croats? to which editor Mhare replied: This insinuations (editor Mhare refers to editor Ceha insinuation that his agreement with me is solicited, and continues in his reply) and claims are part of the philosophy that I warned about on TP of Turkish Croatia. I was just waiting for the sentence "Bosnians are Croats". Čeha on several occasions showed he doesn't respect the literature,.., to which editor Ceha again replies: Ad hominem, when you are out of arguments? :) I gave you maps from yugoslav atlas, and a bunch of references... (they didn't, really - and continues) I'm realy sorry that you can't have normal discussion, without repeating a few authors as a Holly letter....
 * From this it's quite apparent that editor Ceha stubborn rejection of literature, and constant request in changing context given in these sources is sheer ideologically driven standpoint, and can't be resolved in TP.
 * Meanwhile, since Captain didn't respond on my previous post in last 24 hours, I removed undiscussed edits, while TP discussion is in full swing, in which editor Ceha removed everything that was agreed between Flyer, Mhare & myself, and included additional undiscussed and unsupported claims, words and phrases w/t weasel words ("powerful", "temporary", "briefly"), which can't be found in source text let alone interpreted, changing context throughout.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  04:53, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 * ౪ Santa ౪ you obviously follow politics of Jelena Mrgic-Radojcic and that's your right but not in good faith. Proving that Serbs are from the time of Porphyrogenitus in Bosnia makes no sense(it is enough to look at historical data on the strong Vlach colonization in the Turkish era). You pressing  term "Bosnia" which supposedly would originally be related to the Serbs but it is not history. We have to keep those data and sources that exist and which are not politics, also here must be and consensus which you do not have. Mikola22 (talk) 06:42, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 * While, authors Vjekoslav Klajić, Ferdo Šišić and Mladen Ančić, as well as editor Ceha, all think that in Bosnia, since "7th century", only ethnic Croats live - however, these authors' works, just like Mrgić's, can not and will not be disqualified on that grounds, because we can carefully go around such ideological background, if one is too evident or can be identified at all. Anyway, what is your own opinion on who are the people who settled and live in Bosnia? And don't imply what I'm trying to "press" with the country name "Bosnia" in an article on history of Bosnia, and what not. This is an article on the history of the medieval Bosnian state, and a county that is one of its constituent parts in the Meddle Ages, not about Serbs and Croats, nor Serbia or Croatia.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  07:18, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 * We're talking about Donji Kraji, regarding of peoples who settled and live in Bosnia probably for Serbs here originally came Serbs for Croats came Croats and for Bosniaks came Bosniaks. Who is right I wouldn't know. Genetics will say that in the future and then we will be smarter and more concrete. Mikola22 (talk) 11:57, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 * @Santasa, you are still commenting me, and not the article. Please stop.
 * I will return to last good version. If you have any comment why something is wrong, talk pages are place to discuss it. --Čeha (razgovor) 13:07, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Ceha has problematic views on medieval sources for Balkans, I am afraid. This is a big red flag, and we should consider it going forward. Mhare (talk) 14:19, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 * What's wrong in LJPD? --Čeha (razgovor) 18:26, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 * It states that upper Bosnia was part of the Croatia during Krešimir II. It was also part of Croatia later during Pavao Šubić and his son. What's wrong with that, those are historical facts? --Čeha (razgovor) 18:30, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

I am with Mhare in his conclusion, and as I said few paragraphs above, it's quite apparent that editor Ceha stubborn rejection of literature, and constant request in changing context given in these sources, and constant reiteration of supposed willingness to discuss, which is nothing more than attempt to game the system by locking this article TP in endless loop of neverending restarts and repetitions - this situation can't be explained as "content dispute" anymore - it is what it is - ideologically driven disruption, and can't be resolved in TP. From this enormous discussion can also be seen that on my part I really did not spare on time and effort to resolve this issue - I have found reliable literature from credible mainstream historians (two Croatians, one Serbian, and one Bosnian - I have accepted one which was already included in refs, namely 19th century Croatian historian), I insisted on truthful reading of these source-texts. All this took me nowhere - the discussion often revolved around editor Ceha's back-and-forth from misreading and misinterpretation of suggested literature to outright rejection of authors on unacceptable grounds of pure ideological standpoint and personal preference (author is rejected because his views can not be described as pro Croatian, author was a member of communist party, referring to all of these scholars editor rejected them because editor Mhare was repeating a few authors as a Holly letter). TP was practically locked in almost endless loop from the beginning. I hope that Mhare, CaptainEek, or someone else will be able to find and suggest approach how to resolve this setback. That would really be great, and I would appreciate it, because I have invested too much of a time and effort on this article and discussion, only to find myself at the whim of editor who is willing to discuss everything line-by-line until we all go blind, while editor continue to edit page regardless.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  18:50, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Mrgić's book "Donji Kraji" (2002) as a source?
Here is a review of Mrgić's book ."It is not clear to her or she cannot at least accept that medieval term Donji Kraji has nothing to do with today's name of Bosnian Krajina." page 96. "Thus, it seems that to Jelena Mrgic-Radojcic "the epithet Donji" (in the name Donji Kraji) indicates altitude of this area, anyone who looks at the geographical map of Bosnia and Herzegovina can be convinced that this area is extremely mountainous (whether it is necessary to spend words at all on introduce the concept of "altitude mindset in the Middle Ages) page 97. "The consequence however is to focus on the unprovable proof of Srpstvo(Serbian origin), lack of time and space to reflect on real historical problems, and thus such texts appear to be ordinarily silly and meaningless" page 97. "The simplicity of the claim that all places where Serbs live today are from the beginning Serbian" page 98. etc.. Mikola22 (talk) 15:20, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, that is the problem with some authors which confuse history with politics...
 * Thank you for pointing this critique--Čeha (razgovor) 21:20, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * So, guy, Mladen Ančić, who hangs with the Croatian ardent ultra-nationalists from Croatian Party of Rights (mostly its Bosnian branch), spewing Islamophobic rhetoric about Bosnian Muslim, writing apologias in Croatian media about Ustasha salute "Za Dom Spremni" as it's being revived and used by the Croatian Neo-Nazis and the members of the very same party with whose leadership Ančić befriended, is somehow relevant to give us assessment of Mrgić book - he dismisses Mrgić's arguments as "unprovable proofs" for Serbdom of Bosnaska Krajina history by introducing arguments and "unprovable proofs" for the Croatian nature and origins on the same area of Bosnia? Well, we can all rejoice, we have interpreters of ideological bias in academia and scholarship, which means less troubles in choosing only those carrying only truth and nothing but the truth.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  18:26, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * ? http://www.unizd.hr/povijest/nastavnici/prof-dr-sc-mladen-ancic https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mladen_An%C4%8Di%C4%87
 * What are you talking about?
 * By the way, Croatian Party of Rights (mostly its Bosnian branch) is not islamophobic, they see Bosniaks as "islamic Croats", but it's marginal and extreme right party, in most of it's views.
 * Why are you showing bias to Croatian history in today's BiH? Anybody else is good, but Croat's not?
 * If I am not mistaken, you even declined that Bihać was a meeting place of Croatian Parliament, on the discussion of Turkish Croatia, right? --Čeha (razgovor) 22:27, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Weasel words
What are weasel words in this changes? What is disputable https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donji_Kraji&oldid=prev&diff=928221214. We can go phrase by phrase. --Čeha (razgovor) 18:29, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I am afraid we are way past talking. This should be addressed by person of authority. You know very well what are the weasel words, and you (I hope) know that Original research is not permitted, yet it is in the revision. I don't really need to comment adding Seminar papers as a source. Also, your newest blunder is calling John Van Antwerp Fine Jr. book as an unreliable source, while claiming that Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja is valid source. Regarding this I will not do anything, but I am surely going to find somebody who will and put an end to this. I fully support Santasa version, as he cited well known authors like Marko Vego, Vjekoslav Klaić and Jelena Mrgić, and finally several authors from papers of Academy of Sciences and Arts of Bosnia and Herzegovina. This is totally unacademic what you are doing by including these kind of sources, and calling Fine an unreliable source. We've exhausted talking. Mhare (talk) 19:05, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I gave you historical critisism from Neven Budak about the Fine. I am sorry that we can not speak and that you and Santasa are mixing politics with history. History is based on sources, and not on the politics. Vjekoslav Klaić is a good historian, Marko Vego is unfortinuly a biast one. User Mikula provided us with critisism about Jelena Mrgić, also. If you think that history should be determined by politicians, and not sources, than we realy do not have anything to talk about. --Čeha (razgovor) 19:51, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Dispute resoloution
To everyone involved in this talkpage, please comment on content, not the contributor. However, at this point I think it is time to engage in formal dispute resolution via the dispute resolution noticeboard. I will go ahead and open a dispute resolution case. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 19:01, 27 November 2019 (UTC)