Talk:Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge/Archive 1

Mentoring page
Discussion moved from User talk:Valereee/ER.

There was consensus to move this discussion over from the mentoring page. For anyone looking for diffs in future, any edits made before this timestamp were first added to User talk:Valereee/ER. SarahSV (talk) 14:42, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

It says de Kuegelen moved to Italy with Ohlfsen-Bagge in 1902 from St. Petersburg to avoid the Russian revolution, that Ohlfsen-Bagge was an Australian sculptor, that they're buried together at Campo Castio and describes their tombstone. That's about it. Do you want me to pull the refs out? --valereee (talk) 15:25, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * , one of us could email the article to anyone who wants it. SarahSV (talk) 17:38, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Sarah, thanks! I wasn't sure what the rules were when an article had been deleted for 'presumptive copyvio' --valereee (talk) 17:54, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Emailing it to a couple of editors should be fine, especially when one is the creator. SarahSV (talk) 18:01, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * ,, I told Elisa I'd grab a copy of it before it disappeared but didn't manage to get to it. She knows best which info she wants to move from de Kuegelen's page to Ohlfsen-Bagge's, but seriously, no rush. I just noted the redlinks in that talk page thread I had with her and it reminded me. Victoria (tk) 19:57, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * , I've copied it into an email and sent it to you and Elisa! --valereee (talk) 22:18, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's helpful! Victoria (tk) 22:55, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

First of all I would fix the main article itself. I wrote it and unfortunately there is a 20% copyvio with my own blog. Of course I do not have an issue with that, but it's better to fix it. 16.7% copyvio is with, which is also the source for my own blog, so the copyvio is similar. 16.0% of copyvio is with [(http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/54824444)], an article from 1926 (so still under copyright) 13.0% copyvio is with her obituary from 1948. 8.3% is copyvio with, article from 1908, now in Public Domain, maybe it's just necessary to add the PD template to the source 8.3% is copyvio with, article from 1920, now in Public Domain, maybe it's just necessary to add the PD template to the source 6.5% is copyvio with, article from 1922, now in Public Domain, maybe it's just necessary to add the PD template to the source 6.5% is copyvio with, article from 1935 4.8% is copyvio with, article from 1933 2.0% is copyvio with, her obituary As for her partner, under personal life I would just add some bio details: That is all, in the Kuegelgen's article there was also the tombstone transcription that highlights the fact they were more than ordinary friends (Inseparable friends / They found together the eternal rest / On 7 February 1948 / In the last expression of a friendship / Stronger than death) but it's good to not include it if it's considered copyvio. Elisa.rolle (talk) 08:24, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * "Theodor Kullak's Neue Akademie der Tonkunst" --> if also institution names have to be fixed, I suppose the best approach is to or remove it totally or translate it "New Academy of Tonkust"
 * "She moved to Italy in 1902 with her companion, the Russian Baroness Hélène de Kuegelgen." --> "In 1902 she arrived in Italy, that will become her final residence. Following was her Russian companion, the Baroness Hélène de Kuegelgen."
 * "Josef Alteneisel, Prince-Bishop of Brixen in the Tyrol" --> this is a person name, should be fine, shouldn't it?
 * "a bust of Nellie Stewart" --> basically a name, but if we have to fix it, "a sculpture of Nellie Stewart" (don't like it very much, thought)
 * "Police said the deaths were accidental." --> "According to the police, the death of the two women was an accident."
 * "under the relief bust of the god Dionysius, one hand raised in a gesture of blessing" --> "above their tombstone there is a sculpture by Ohlfsen-Bagge, a bas-relief of Dionysius, the greek god, with an hand blessing them"
 * "at Theodor Kullak's Neue Akademie der Tonkunst" --> see above
 * "She moved to Italy in 1902" --> see above
 * "Princess Maria Rospigliosi (formerly the American heiress Marie Reid Pankhurst)" --> "Princess Maria Rospigliosi, who before marrying was Marie Reid Pankhurst, an heiress born in New Orleans in 1870 )"
 * Josef Alteneisel, Prince-Bishop of Brixen in the Tyrol --> see above
 * "a medallion portrait of the Australian Prime Minister, Billy Hughes." --> "the bas-relief of Australian Prime Minister, Billy Hughes, to be reproduced in a medal."
 * "a War Memorial at Formia" --> "creating a sculpture in Formia honoring the soldiers died during World War I."
 * "the Non-Catholic Cemetery in Rome, Campo Cestio" --> "Campo Cestio in Rome, known as the Protestant Cemetery."
 * "under the relief bust of the god Dionysius, one hand raised in a gesture of blessing." --> see above
 * "with an invitation to become a pupil" --> "she was offered to join the school as a student."
 * "Museum of the Petit Palais, Paris" --> "exhibithed at the Petit Palais in Paris."
 * "the marble figure at the base represents the grief of the citizens of Formia for their fallen war heroes. The inscription, translated into English, reads:—"O, my country! The life thou gave me I return to thee."" --> see above, already explained it's for the soldiers died in WWI, therefore we can remove this sentence.
 * "Among her smaller works were bronze bas-relief heads of Balfour" --> "She made also smaller pieces, in particular bas-relief portraits in bronze, of Balfour"
 * "gold medals for sculpture, painting and fresco work" --> "her work was awarded by"
 * "the Italian Government for a War Memorial at Formia" --> see above
 * "The Awakening of Art in Australia" --> see above
 * "the only woman in Italy" --> "as a woman the only one in Italy"
 * "a mural painting of "St. Anthony of Padua"" --> "a murals of St Anthony of Padua"
 * "Beda College, in the Via S. Nicola da Tolentino" --> this is an address, do we have to change it?
 * "the head of Dionysos in grey stone" --> "a bust of Dionysos, made in stone"
 * "a mural painting of "St. Francis of Assisi" with Australian birds" --> "a murals of St Francis of Assisi adorned with birds typical from Australia, the home country of the artist"
 * "Beda College, in the Via S. Nicola da Tolentino" see above
 * "Police said the deaths were accidental." --> see above
 * "Hélène (or Elena) de Kuegelgen was the daughter of Pavel Kuegelgen and Alexandra Zhudlovsky. The Kuegelgens were a socially relevant family originally from Germany, near the Baltic Sea: one uncle was a doctor at the court of the Tsar and anothe was the editor of the German newspaper Petersburger. Other two relatives were painters at the court of the Tsar." --> please check source to avoid copyvio.


 * Hi, Elisa! There is a way to donate your own writing, info is at Donating copyrighted materials. But it's probably easier just to reword enough.

your blog
Re: Theodor Kullak's Neue Akademie der Tonkunst: I would not consider this a copyvio. It's the actual name of the academy and the full name of the (founder?).

Re: In 1902 she arrived in Italy, which would become her final residence. Following was her Russian companion, the Baroness Hélène de Kuegelgen. (tweak for idiomatic English.) I consider this barely a copyvio, but the fix is good to prevent even a small one.

Re: Josef Alteneisel, Prince-Bishop of Brixen in the Tyrol: yes, that's fine too, person's name and title, very few ways to say this so I would not consider it a copyvio

Re: bust of Nellie Stewart: not a copyvio

Re: Police said: your fix is good

Re: Dionysius: Tweak to your fix for idiomatic English: under the relief bust of the god Dionysius, one hand raised in a gesture of blessing" --> "above their tombstone there is a sculpture by Ohlfsen-Bagge, a bas-relief of Dionysius, the Greek god, with a hand raised in blessing.

--valereee (talk) 09:57, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

cemeteryrome
Re: first two, as you say fixed above

Re: Princess Maria Rospigliosi: fix is good

Re: fourth, fixed above

Re: "a medallion portrait of the Australian Prime Minister, Billy Hughes." --> "the bas-relief of Australian Prime Minister, Billy Hughes, reproduced in a medallion." fix is good, tweak for idiomatic English

Re: "a War Memorial at Formia" --> "creating a sculpture in Formia honoring the soldiers who died during World War I." I would not have flagged this as a copyvio, but your fix is fine, slight tweak for English

Re: Non-Catholic cemetery: I would not have considered this a copyvio, but fix is good

Re: final, fixed above

--valereee (talk) 10:19, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

gov.au
Re: "with an invitation to become a pupil" --> "she was offered a place in the school as a student." fix good, tweak for English

Re: Museum of the Petit Palais, Paris" --> "exhibited at the Petit Palais in Paris.": I would not consider this a copyvio, but fix is fine

Re: "the marble figure at the base represents the grief of the citizens of Formia for their fallen war heroes. The inscription, translated into English, reads:—"O, my country! The life thou gave me I return to thee.", yes, this one's a definite copyvio, and if you've given the context already then removing it is the best fix

--valereee (talk) 10:30, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

obit
Re: "Among her smaller works were bronze bas-relief heads of Balfour" --> "She also made smaller pieces, in particular bas-relief portraits in bronze, of Balfour" good fix, tweak for English

Re: "gold medals for sculpture, painting and fresco work" --> "her work was awarded by" : Earwig for me wouldn't show this as fixing it, although it's a again barely copyvio. I'd suggest "She was awarded gold medals for painting, sculpture and fresco work by the French and Italian governments.

final: fixed above

1908 article
no copyvio

1933 article
Re: "the head of Dionysos in grey stone" --> "a bust of Dionysos, made in stone" Barely copvio but fix is good

Re: "a mural painting of "St. Francis of Assisi" with Australian birds" --> "a murals of St Francis of Assisi adorned with birds typical from Australia, the home country of the artist" This one isn't showing up for me in Earwig as copyvio at all. Tweak for English: a mural of St Francis of Assisi adorned with birds typical of Australia, the home country of the artist

Final as above --valereee (talk) 10:46, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Personal life
Re: Hélène (or Elena) de Kuegelgen was the daughter of Pavel Kuegelgen and Alexandra Zhudlovsky. The Kuegelgens were a socially relevant family originally from Germany, near the Baltic Sea: one uncle was a doctor at the court of the Tsar and anothe was the editor of the German newspaper Petersburger. Other two relatives were painters at the court of the Tsar

There is no copyvio here with the source. I would suggest these tweaks for English: Hélène (or Elena) de Kuegelgen was the daughter of Pavel Kuegelgen and Alexandra Zhudlovsky. The Kuegelgens were a socially important family originally from Germany, near the Baltic Sea; one uncle was a doctor at the court of the Tsar and another was the editor of the German newspaper Petersburger. Two other relatives were painters at the court of the Tsar.

Elisa, this is impressive. Very good detail work! --valereee (talk) 10:53, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm done! --valereee (talk) 10:56, 22 September 2019 (UTC)


 * ✅ Now copyvio is 8.3%, and mostly from the PD sources for which I added the template. Elisa.rolle (talk) 10:59, 22 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Nice work. 8.3% for an article with 15 sources would alarm no one. :) --valereee (talk) 11:01, 22 September 2019 (UTC)


 * , remember that there should be no copying of text, no matter the copyright status of the source. I checked just one sentence and found that it was copied: "Her great-grandfather, Robert Howe, was the Victorian Government Printer in the early days." Copied from this article in The Register: "her greatgrandfather, Robert Howe, was Victorian Government Printer in the early days".


 * The best way to summarize is not to go line by line changing a few words, but to read the sources and work out how you would express the same material. I know it can be difficult to do this with early lives when there is often sparse information, but when you find yourself typing "in the early days" and the meaning isn't obvious (in the early days of Australia, of that area, and when was that?), that's a sign that you need to write it differently, or leave it out and just say he was a government printer. And maybe google it to find out what it means (was he a printer or the printer?). SarahSV (talk) 01:00, 23 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I asked above if I could skip to check that copyvio considering the source was Public Domain. I did not introduce it now, it was already in the article, and I concentrated in the not public domain sources mostly becuase that were also the one with the higher % of copyvio. Of course it the higher % was for a Public Domain source, I would have checked also that. But the combination of Public Domain and lower % gave me the push to check more risky sentences. I'm not sure I will be able to do something today, I have family obligations, but will try within the week. Elisa.rolle (talk) 06:04, 23 September 2019 (UTC)


 * , regarding the PD text we're discussing, you added it on 10 October 2017 when you created the page. But there's no deadline for any of this, so please go at your own speed. SarahSV (talk) 06:12, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
 * This is so strange...Earwig doesn't flag that, apparently because the source text is divided up by lines, so it's parsing it as:


 * her


 * Line 2.0.56


 * greatgrandfather, Robert Howe, was Vic-


 * Line 2.0.57


 * torian Government Printer in the early


 * Line 2.0.58


 * days,


 * ...and it only flagged "Government Printer in the early," so didn't return an appropriate score. Is this a thing with trove.nla.gov.au, or is it a thing with digitised stuff in generall? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Valereee (talk • contribs) 11:17, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

, I wouldn't rely on Earwig. It misses a lot and it returns false positives. It's better to look at sentences and compare with the sources. The issue here is that a sentence in the source is read and slightly altered, then the next, and so on, which produces a lot of close paraphrasing. A couple of examples:
 * Source: The fund raised will be devoted to the needs of Australians and New Zealanders maimed and permanently disabled in the war.
 * WP: The funds raised were devoted to the needs of Australians and New Zealanders permanently disabled in the war.
 * Source: Under the patronage of Dame Margaret Davidson, an exhibition of pastels and bronze medallions ...
 * WP: under the patronage of Dame Margaret Davidson, she exhibited pastels and bronze medallions ...

The best way forward is for Elisa to read several sources about each issue wherever possible (e.g. the move to Russia), take notes without copying sentences, then write up the notes in her own words. See the first and second bulleted paragraphs of Victoria's assessment. SarahSV (talk) 15:35, 23 September 2019 (UTC)


 * There's a book that is partly about her but currently not used as a source: Eileen Chanin and Steven Miller, Awakening: Four Lives in Art, Wakefield Press, 2015. ISBN 978-1743053652


 * Sydney Morning Herald article here that mentions two Robert Howes who were the second and third Government Printers of New South Wales. SarahSV (talk) 04:40, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Note that the National Library of Australia introduces a note of doubt about this: "She claimed that her great-grandfather was the Sydney convict printer, Robert Howe." Also see George Howe (printer). SarahSV (talk) 05:53, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Inscription
I'd quite like to add the tombstone inscription to the article. We can do it in a block quote. Whose translation is it, do we know? --valereee (talk) 11:37, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Mine, I translated it for the Wikipedia article that got deleted (I'm Italian native speaker). Elisa.rolle (talk) 12:33, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I think you could add the original text, in a block quote, then the translation. In the edit summary you can put 'translation my own' or something. --valereee (talk) 13:52, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅, I added also the redirect from Helene to Dora. Elisa.rolle (talk) 14:18, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Some general comments
Huge apologies for not posting earlier but I've not been able to get here and honestly have only read this thread partially, but wanted to get a post up if I can. Adding some general comments here re Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge, sorry if they're not in order. Please feel free to refactor if necessary.
 * First, when I was working with Elisa re the assessment I found this source which looks quite good to me. It's a high quality secondary source, and before we were interrupted on her page I meant to bring it to Elisa's attention. If information already in the article is included in the source, I'd suggest swapping out. I haven't had the chance to look yet; but will. I also think we might be able to add an image of one of her medallions, perhaps with a well-written fair use tag - would know better than I.
 * Second, I wondered if it might be a good idea if Elisa had a sandbox to play around in? do you think you might be interested in setting up a sandbox, or even multiple sandboxes? If so, let us know and someone can teach you how to do that. Personally I love sandboxes because only I edit there and I can work peacefully. I've been working for months at User:Victoriaearle/Kate Greenaway and expect to do quite a bit more there before starting the main space work. Please feel free to peek over my shoulder - though my sandboxes are always messy! It's where I play and fling sand around.
 * Next, we can't rely on Earwig. Earwig was developed for en.wp to emulate Turnitin a tool used in academia and now American high schools to check for plagiarism. It's a good tool, but it's very blunt and only checks for copy/paste. It's not meant to teach how to read and extrapolate from sources. I used it for about a decade in classrooms at a higher education institution and finally stopped because a. it doesn't do what I wanted to teach the students, re how to paraphrase vs. copypaste (reminder too I placed some how-to links on this thread and I must put those here); and b., the students became too obsessed with the percentages. The best method, the method I've followed throughout looking at all of these articles, is to pull the sources, read them, and then match to the text. That's extremely time-consuming and the reason we need to so many people on board to help, but I'm sure we can all do this.
 * Finally, I wondered how any of you might feel about moving conversations re articles to the article talk pages? The downside is that the conversations will be more public and visible, anyone can chime in, but the upside is that we'll be keeping discussions re articles on the relevant talk pages. Alternatively, we might be able to utilize talk page for this page. Or we can keep going as we have been, just throwing out ideas and welcome to hear replies.
 * Don't forget my mantra! There's no deadline! Will try to check back as often as I can, but in the meantime anyone should feel free to ping me if there are questions, etc. Victoria (tk) 16:43, 23 September 2019 (UTC)


 * No objection to moving discussion to article talk --valereee (talk) 17:12, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Ditto, no objection. SarahSV (talk) 17:39, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Restart
Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge is an article that was on my list to discuss with Elisa when I was working with her on her talk page. Unfortunately that effort was interrupted but I'd chosen the article for a number of reasons and would have had some follow-up questions, so I think this is a good place to restart.

I've taken a quick look at the article today, after the recent edits. In the "Early life" section, first para, the last sentence says, "Her great-grandfather, Robert Howe, was the Victorian Government Printer in the early days." cited to this 1922 source. The source says, "and her greatgrandfather, Robert Howe, was Victorian Government Printer in the early days", same source, second para, a few sentences down. Because of its 1922 date the source is in the public domain, but in my view copying verbatim from the text absolutely must be avoided, for a variety of reasons that have already been explained.

So let's ignore the tick mark and restart with this article. Here's a suggested process that I think will help and hopefully everyone can pitch in:
 * 1) Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge is an interesting woman and there are a number of sources available. The first step is to make a list of all the sources. I see that Sarah has added a few to the further reading list. I'm not able to see the Taylor & Francis one, so that could be sent to me, I'd appreciate it.
 * 2) Next, read the sources from top to bottom. There are some overlaps and some discrepancies, i.e the 1922 newspaper article tells us her father was born in Poland, the 1908 article tells us he was Scandinavian and our article says he was Scandinavian. The only way to find these types of discrepancies is to read all the sources and make notes.
 * 3) Note-taking can be done in any number of ways: my method is to work from hard copies, make scribbles that don't capture the language in the source, then transcribe to the my sandbox (more scribbling, more distance from the source) and finally pull it all together in main space.
 * 4) Elisa should have a sandbox for notes and any work she wants to do. I suggest something like User:Elisa.rolle/Work, (right now it's red, clicking it and adding text will turn it blue). Any word can be used after the backslash, I just randomly chose "Work".
 * 5) Next, fill the sandbox with a list of all the sources. Read the sources. Fill the sandbox with notes from the sources. Now go to back to the article and make corrections. The phrase "and make corrections" sounds easier than it is; the article text has to be checked against the sources and rewritten entirely.

This post has gotten too long, might feel overwhelming, but it's a scratch outline of the process we need to follow for success. In the meantime I'll fill User:Victoriaearle/Tutorial with relevant links such as this link explaining summarizing that will be used for the "and make corrections" portion of the article writing.

Fwiw, I think Ohlfsen-Bagge is interesting and has the potential of being a really stunning piece, so it's worth putting in the time. If I'm coming off as overbearing, bossy, cranky, please don't hesitate to tell me!

Pinging, , , , , and to be certain everyone sees this. Hoping for comments, feedback, etc. Thanks, Victoria (tk) 19:15, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * You aren't coming off as any of those things! :) --valereee (talk) 19:25, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * seen, but I need to wait the weekend. during the week I'm working 9 to 18 and then I'm volunteering for a charity event that will take place on December 8, so the only time left I have is over the weekend, I'm sorry. Elisa.rolle (talk) 20:18, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * No need to be sorry to have a life WP isn't urgent.  I think you have done a great job here and your comments are extremely helpful. SusunW (talk) 21:42, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * please don't feel any pressure at all! There's absolutely no rush. Wikipedia isn't a job; your real life always comes first. I just wanted to post while I could, because I can't be here every day either. Victoria (tk) 23:07, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

draft page
I re-read all the sources and took down notes. I created the draft page to work on it. As soon as I think I'm complete, I will let you know. Meanwhile if you would like to change something on the main article, would you please do it on ? otherwise I fear they will get lost (anyway I'm watchlisting it so in case I will record the changes). --Elisa.rolle (talk) 08:49, 28 September 2019 (UTC)


 * ✅ Dora_Ohlfsen-Bagge is reviewed and double checked with as much sources I could find and access. I did not copied but first read, took down notes, and then rewrote with my own words. Hope is fine, please double-check. Elisa.rolle (talk) 23:54, 28 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi Elisa, thank you for all the work you put into this. That has helped a lot.


 * One of the issues is the reliance on primary sources. This can cause several problems, including that we're unable to judge the accuracy of any given point, which is why (for example) there are multiple countries of origin for the father. In addition, according to this bio (which is a copy of "Ohflsen Bagge (Ohflsen), Dorothea (Dora)" in Joan Kerr (ed.), Heritage: The National Women's Art Book, 1995, p. 420), she "gave different versions of her expatriate career to different reporters on her visits back to Australia". In situations like this, we need reliable secondary sources to sort it all out. See WP:SECONDARY.


 * It would therefore help to read the chapter on Ohlfsen-Bagge in Chanin, Eileen; Miller Steven (2015). Awakening: Four Lives in Art. Mile End, South Australia: Wakefield Press. ISBN 978-1743053652 Are you able to borrow this through an inter-library loan?


 * It's worth mentioning something about images, because I see you've uploaded another two. Our image copyright policies are complicated. In brief, to be on Commons, images must be free of copyright constraints in the United States and in their country of origin. Images that are only free in the United States can be uploaded to Wikipedia. Whether a photograph is free depends on the date it was first published, not the date it was taken, and in some cases on age or death of author. Anything published before 1924 is free in the United States. See the Hirtle chart for more details.


 * If none of the images in the article are free, you can upload one of her to Wikipedia as "fair use" for the lead and perhaps an example of her work for the body of the article. If we get to that point, one of us can explain how to do it. SarahSV (talk) 06:25, 29 September 2019 (UTC)


 * I live in Italy so the inter-library loan is unlikeable. I would have been willing to buy the kindle if it was available but I saw it is only in paperback . --Elisa.rolle (talk) 08:46, 29 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The copyright cover the photo of a opera if the photo itself has artistic value and it's under declared copyright. But if the image is of an opera (just the opera nothing around it), then it's the copyright of the opera you have to evaluate, and in the two images I uploaded the artist is dead for more than 70 years and the opera was exhibited before 1923, so it's in Public Domain in the United States. Elisa.rolle (talk) 08:46, 29 September 2019 (UTC)


 * BTW I double checked cause I had a feeling: the photos were taken by Dora in 1914 and 1915, so they are 100% Public Domain: before 1923 and artist died more than 70 years ago. Elisa.rolle (talk) 08:50, 29 September 2019 (UTC)


 * What you say is correct for a two-dimensional work—PD-Art—but not (I believe) 3D. Coins are regarded as 3D so medallions presumably are too. See Commons:When to use the PD-Art tag and specifically the section "6.6 Photograph of an old coin found on the Internet". SarahSV (talk) 15:13, 29 September 2019 (UTC)


 * SarahSV, the photo itself is PD (other than being the coin illustrated on the photo); the photos are from the archive of Dora, and were taken in 1914 and 1915, so they too are obliging the PD (a work of art published before 1923, therefore PD in the United States). That is what I checked, this photo [] was taken by Dora (signed) in circa 1915 and this photo [] was taken in 1912 (not signed but in Dora's archives). Elisa.rolle (talk) 16:41, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * When were they published? SarahSV (talk) 16:57, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Aside that you can suppose they were "published" as soon as taken, therefore before 1923, cause when I said they are from Dora's archives, I meant they are her portfolio, what she used to promote her work, but in any case it's a mood point, Dora died more than 70 years ago (71 this year) and therefore the copyright status has expired (70 years after the death of the author holding the copyright)
 * If the work was Never Published, Never Registered Works (most likely this case) --> In the public domain in the U.S. as of 1 January 2019: Works from authors who died before 1949 (Dora died in 1948).
 * Works First Published Outside the U.S. by Foreign Nationals or U.S. Citizens Living Abroad (not likely but Dora was living in Italy and was Australian) ---> Date of Publication: Before 1924 In the public domain or Works Published Abroad Before 1978 (Solely published abroad, without compliance with US formalities or republication in the US, and not in the public domain in its home country as of 1 January 1996 (but see special cases) In public doman 95 years after publication date (so in out case 2010 and 2007 in our case)
 * Works Published Abroad After 1 January 1978 ---> 70 years after the death of the author
 * So in all three cases (Dora never published it in her life, Dora published it in her life, Dora never published it in her life and someone else published it after her death), we are in Public Domain due to the fact 70 years passed from the death of Dora (that is the worst case scenario). Elisa.rolle (talk) 17:28, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * In the case of the photograph of the Mussolini medallion, the same website credits Ohlfsen as the author of the photograph. But for File:The_Awakening_of_Australian_Art_by_Dora_Ohlfsen.jpg, it says "creator unknown". The metadata gives the name of a gallery photographer, although that may have been from when it was digitized. It would make sense to ask them. How about the first two photographs of Ohlfsen (the lead and first section)? Do you know who the authors were and when the images were first published? SarahSV (talk) 17:41, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * "The metadata gives the name of a gallery photographer" it could not be him, the creator is unknown but the date is 1915 therefore if it was not Dora, it was in any case copyright expired cause 1915+95 years = 2010.
 * As for the other two portraits of Dora, the first one is on the archives as well, where it's stated it was taken in London by unknow photographer in 1908
 * The second one is from the Cemetery of Rome newsletter where it's stated it's from 1908 too (without copyright notice) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elisa.rolle (talk • contribs) 18:26, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the detailed responses. I hadn't intended to get into images in such detail, but in brief the file pages should reflect what the best sources say about the image, and the right tags should be used. Otherwise the images are likely to be challenged in future. For example, File:Dionysius (c.1930), plaster cast.png says Ohlfsen-Bagge was the photographer, but the source doesn't say that. The NSW art gallery has a better quality image but it's unsigned and undated. The file page also needs a US tag.
 * The more pressing issue is how to get a copy of the Chanin/Miller chapter. SarahSV (talk) 05:17, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * just a note on this: File:Dionysius (c.1930), plaster cast.png even if the source doesn't say that, you can clearly see Dora's sign on the bottom right. So she is the author of the plaster cast AND of the photo. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 06:08, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out. SarahSV (talk) 06:24, 30 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Elisa, you might be able to get the chapter by posting a request here. I have similar issues in Mexico -- no public libraries, no interlibrary loan, and my IP is often blocked from accessing sources in the US and UK because it originates here. Also I did not know if you saw my response on WiR on Orlando. I worked for a year to get us access to Cambridge's Orlando collection. You can apply for it at the Wikipedia Library. Apply for Cambridge Core and specifically ask for access to the Orlando collection. If you need something ASAP, Rosie and I both have access. SusunW (talk) 15:22, 29 September 2019 (UTC)


 * It's not just a chapter it's a whole book. And yes I see the answer for Orlando. there is a link to the wikipedia library where to apply? Elisa.rolle (talk) 16:41, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Here . Log in (I'm pretty sure it just requires pushing the button, at least mine does) and then selecting what sources you want to have access to. They'll process it and usually within a week to two weeks you will get access. SusunW (talk) 17:40, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Draft comments from Victoria
Apologies for not being around this weekend! I think I didn't explain myself well: what I meant to say was that Elisa should set up a sandbox for note-taking, etc., but not so much as a draft to be redirected to the article in mainspace. Is this something we even do? If not, how do we fix it? I'd do something convoluted like copy-pasting current version back to User:Elisa.rolle/sandbox/Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge, undo the redirect, then copy-paste the text back to main-space to sync all the edits, then delete the draft page. But that sounds too complicated! Thoughts? 21:58, 30 September 2019 (UTC) Pinging, , , , , and (also, is does this page on people's watch or do we need to ping for every post?). Victoria (tk) 21:58, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I am probably the least technical person here and cannot answer your questions. I create everything in draft space and then move it to mainspace. Have only used a sandbox a few times. Usually it just holds notes and sources for the next article I am going to start. SusunW (talk) 22:17, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * just delete [User:Elisa.rolle/sandbox/Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge]? I wasn't sure what I could or not do on the main space, but at this point it's better to stay there. If there is no evident copyvio (and at this point I hope there is not), all other edit can be done directly there on mainspace? Elisa.rolle (talk) 22:42, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm just really confused. I didn't know we can redirect from draft space to main space? Hoping to hear from one of the admins here. Otherwise we can use it as a sandbox, rename or something. Another thing is that I do have comments re the article, but would like to get this situation sorted first. What I meant, when I mentioned "sandbox" was to use a space to make notes, etc., not to rewrite an article. I've never done that, but I know people do, so I just think this is an issue of miscommunication on my part. Victoria (tk) 22:53, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Elisa, you could just remove the redirect. SarahSV (talk) 23:02, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * sure easily done. Elisa.rolle (talk) 06:33, 1 October 2019 (UTC)


 * This is on my watchlist, but it's always okay to ping me, and often a good idea as I'm not always in perfect control of my watchlist. Has the original question been answered? Because I'm not sure I'm following it correctly lol --valereee (talk) 11:55, 1 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Hold on. Just as a point of clarification: no one should copy-paste content as it loses its attribution properties. Instead, follow the process described here. If someone isn't comfortable doing it themselves, no problem, just let me know, and I will be glad to take care of it. --Rosiestep (talk) 15:18, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I made it overcomplicated but whenever I copy/paste from a sandbox to main space, which I do all the time, I always attribute in the edit summary "copied from blah blah" because as you say we need to retain attribution. Anyway, huge apologies for making an issue where there is one. I simply didn't understand why the sandbox was redirected to the article and didn't know the redirect could be simply removed. Anyway, will hold on. Thanks. Victoria (tk) 16:02, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

this might all sound like a lot of work, but in fact it is a lot of work to get an article right, and currently the article is rated B-class, so we should try to get it to that point. Also, to really be able to edit without running into problems in the long term, it's worth taking the time on this single article and work through the various issues raised. It's always a good idea to use secondary sources instead of primary sources when available (and there are many available), to make sure there aren't discrepancies or that there's no close-paraphrasing. Seemingly small issues like how to link appropriately, how to format citations appropriately, how to fill in image files appropriately are all part of getting it right. Remember WP:Wikipedia is a work in progress applies to all articles (except maybe featured articles), any article can always be improved, and that's how good editing skills are gained that are necessary and can be translated and used with other articles. This is a good article to use as a teaching tool since you were only recently unblocked. Asking questions on a talk page and having you answer is one thing, but now we need to start putting those things into practice. Remember, we have all the time in the world. Victoria (tk) 20:03, 1 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Elisa, I found a 2004 Oxford Art Online biography of Ohlfsen by Stella Free that I obtained thanks to Bruce1ee at WP:RX, and he kindly agreed that I could send it to you. Did you receive it? If not, let me know and I'll resend.


 * You can use Free—at least until you get hold of Chanin and Miller—to begin to pull together a version based less on primary sources. For example, there is confusion about when Ohlfsen left Australia for Berlin. Free 2004 says it was 1886 when Ohlfsen was c. 17. The article currently says: "In 1883 Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge moved to Berlin", based on three sources: Elmes 1908, which doesn't mention a year that I can see; Speck 2018, which says it was 1892; and Hughes 2015, which also says 1892 (Speck and Hughes are reviews of Chanin and Miller). I notice that Free says Ohlfsen was born in 1870, rather than 1869; I assume that's an error on her part.


 * Similarly with where the father comes from, secondary sources are needed to pull together something definitive. Please take Victoria's advice and try using a sandbox to take notes from the best sources until you're ready to summarize. Per User:Valereee/ER, any lengthy additions should be brought here to be checked first. SarahSV (talk) 13:08, 1 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I included Free's sources, double-checking what I had already did. Elisa.rolle (talk) 14:40, 1 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Another date for the move to Berlin: Greg Reeves, "Australia's sons in medals remain", The Sydney Morning Herald, 24 April 1991, p. 26: "In 1885, at just 16, she left rural Victoria to study in Berlin." Note that this source says she was a secretary to the US ambassador in Moscow, not a spy. The story seems to be based on an article about Ohlfsen by Ken Sheedy in Australian Coin Review, August 1989. SarahSV (talk) 14:06, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Mussolini
In case I forget, I'll leave a note here about a source for a quote from Ohlfsen about Mussolini. It's "Dora Ohlfsen and Mussolini", The Sydney Morning Herald, 14 February 1925, p. 26. Quote begins: "He is, indeed, a man quite above the ordinary ...". SarahSV (talk) 13:47, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw these words in various sources, but I did not want to investigate much; my fault, I admit here, I'm not much for investigating or writing about Mussolini. If someone else wants to do it, it's probably better and they will do a more impartial job than me. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 14:04, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I noticed this too. There does seem to be some connection with Mussolini who either commissioned works or recommended his friends or acquaintances commission work from her. Per NPOV it's not something we can ignore and when editing we have to put our biases aside. That sometimes a really difficult thing to do, but it's one of our pillars. Victoria (tk) 14:12, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, I did say she was an early supporter. But indeed, I did not use her words in any other part of the article, so I applied the same approach. But I think it's clear from the article that she was a supporter of Mussolini and much of her commissions arrived from that political party. I even added the thesis of the suicide once that political party failed, and so did her commissions. Elisa.rolle (talk) 14:17, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks. I'm not completely caught up and haven't had the time to read through completely. Am on my way out for a while, but will do a thorough read-through this evening. I'll probably post comments directly to the talk page. Victoria (tk) 14:20, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I think the relationship with Mussolini needs to be developed. Ohlfsen said she was in the crowd in 1922 during the March on Rome. Free 2004 writes:


 * "Dora was strongly influenced by the cult of dynamic he-men forging history, in line with early Italian Fascism. With modernist overtones, her art is a celebration of idealized figures in their prime, conveying patriotic themes and nationalistic sentiment. Dora secured many commissions among the new political and military elite, executing a portrait medallion of Mussolini, which was officially presented to him in 1926. ... The defeat of Fascism brought the demise of the Italian monarchy and all that had been cherished by Dora. In the immediate post-war years, Dora and Elena were forced to sell their belongings for food. They both died while they were sleeping as the result of a gas-leak, although it remains unclear whether it was by design or accident."


 * The Sydney Morning Herald quote from Ohlfsen is as follows ("Dora Ohlfsen and Mussolini", The Sydney Morning Herald, 14 February 1925, p. 26). This comes after the newspaper explains that Mussolini had given her two-hour sittings at the Palazzo Chigi while he worked and received visitors.


 * "He is, indeed, a man quite above the ordinary, and positively exudes magnetism. He speaks French and German perfectly, and, beginning English last year, can already sustain a conversation in it. His beautiful voice when speaking is like a 'cello bowed by a great artist. I have modeled him wearing his 'dictator's' expression. His face changes with such swiftness and facility that I found I had to choose one aspect, and stick to it, awaiting a chance renewal. His sittings were during a very hectic period (which still continues), but he was always amazingly calm, insolent, and dominating. He promised that I should paint a futuristic picture of him later on."


 * SarahSV (talk) 15:51, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Académie française
Re: "At the same time she was named an 'Immortel' (Immortal) of the Académie française."

I can't find any reference to her on the Académie française website, where it seems they list the 733 "immortels". SarahSV (talk) 16:01, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

It seems there have been nine female members, listed here. According to that list and the WP article Académie française, the first woman was elected in 1980. Perhaps Ohlfsen-Bagge was a candidate. SarahSV (talk) 16:19, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Lede diction
was reverting "lifelong partner, Russian artist Helene de Kuegelgen" back to "lifelong Russian partner..." an oversight? –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 18:44, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi, that she was an artist would need a source. I have a vague memory of seeing one, but I think it was from Ohlfsen. Something independent would be better. SarahSV (talk) 19:09, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I know literally nothing about her, I was just going off this article itself, which states that she was an artist. But "her lifelong Russian partner" is poorly phrased, that's the bit I wanted to deal with. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 20:21, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I've removed artist until we find better sourcing for it. What do you see as the problem with "her lifelong Russian partner"? SarahSV (talk) 20:31, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * In case it's Russian you object to, I've removed it, so it now reads: "In 1948 Ohlfsen and her lifelong partner, Hélène de Kuegelgen ..." Hope that's okay. SarahSV (talk) 00:47, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Suggestions/comments
Hi, below I'm posting a list of suggestions/comments that are still outstanding. I'll be going through section-by-section, and adding in batches. Apologies for taking so long to get to this:

Early life

 * First sentence, "Ohlfsen-Bagge was born in Ballarat, Victoria, Australia,[1][2][3][4][5]" has five citations. It's not a disputed fact and doesn't require so many citations. Take a look at Citation overkill about this. Let's remove all the citations from the 1920s and earlier per WP:Primary. Suggest using this only. Once that's done, I'll remove the inline comment.
 * ✅ --Elisa.rolle (talk) 12:23, 6 October 2019 (UTC)


 * See Manual of Style/Linking. I've added links for Ballarat & Melbourne. Have we checked for the reservoir? Or for Gong Gong?
 * ✅ --Elisa.rolle (talk) 12:35, 6 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Moving from Melbourne to Sidney only needs a single citation. It's not disputed. Same for Sidney High School; no need for 5 citations there.
 * ✅ --Elisa.rolle (talk) 12:36, 6 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I added an interlanguage link for the piano teacher; see Template:Interlanguage link for markup.
 * OK


 * As for sourcing, according the National Library of Australia, "The story of her fascinating expatriate career is somewhat complicated by the different versions of it she gave the Australian press on visits to this county",. This is an important sentence because it's telling us that the press accounts are not reliable. Thus it's best to swap out press accounts for secondary wherever possible.
 * ✅ --Elisa.rolle (talk) 12:37, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

When these fixes have been made I'll swing through for a copy edit and add another batch of comments. Anything mentioned here that applies elsewhere, i.,e too many citations, link work, etc. can be done now as well. Thanks, Victoria (tk) 20:12, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
 * How do feel about combining the two paragraphs because the section is relatively short? Take a look at MOS:PARA.
 * Sorry not sure which sentence you are referring to. Elisa.rolle (talk) 12:38, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The National Library of Australia tells us in the middle of the second paragraph, "The story of her fascinating expatriate career is somewhat complicated by the different versions of it she gave the Australian press on visits to this county". It's an important sentence for the following reasons:
 * It casts doubts on the press accounts written during her Australian visits, and there's no reason to assume that doubt is only confined to the expatriate career.
 * The press accounts are primary sources and it's always best to get information from a secondary source if one exists.
 * Because this Wikipedia article is the easiest to find on the web, (it's not behind a paywall, it's top in the search, etc.) it's our responsibility to verify the information the best we can.
 * We have some secondary sources available, so we should remove primary and replace with secondary sources wherever possible.
 * Because there are discrepancies throughout in the sourcing, it's best to take notes from the various sources available and make decisions which information to add or modify based on those notes

A few more comments in this section:
 * "Initially living in Melbourne, from 1870 to 1880, in 1880 the family moved to Sydney[5][6]" > not necessary to use two sources for this. Which do you think would be the best. It doesn't have to be one of these, it can be another.
 * ✅ Elisa.rolle (talk) 19:28, 6 October 2019 (UTC)


 * "During this time she also studied pianoforte under Henri Kowalski [fr],[7][8]" > not necessary to have two sources here. A good secondary source can be substituted. Also, neither of the cited sources mention pianoforte which is a different instrument than piano.
 * ✅ --Elisa.rolle (talk) 19:31, 6 October 2019 (UTC)


 * "Ohlfsen-Bagge was born in Ballarat, Victoria, Australia,[1] the daughter of Christian Herm Ohlfsen-Bagge, who was originally from Norway,[1] and Kate Harison, an Australian.[1]" > this sentences are now cited to only a single source. Two of the citations can be removed.
 * ✅ --Elisa.rolle (talk) 19:32, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

More later, Victoria (tk) 17:14, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks Elisa. It's coming along and the edit window is now much less cluttered. I'll work my way through the next section and post comments in a separate section but don't worry about having to work on them until you have time. I'm aware of your work commitment and of the time difference. In the meantime I'll also do some copyediting throughout. Victoria (tk) 21:42, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Berlin (1883-1896)

 * "In about 1883[1] Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge moved to Berlin[8]" >> some discrepancies here. First no need to use split the sentence with multiple citations. It's not disputed that she went to Germany but there are various dates for when she went.
 * Current citation The National Library of Australia, says she went to Germany in 1883.
 * But The New South Wales Art Gallery tells us she went to Germany in 1886. (Btw - this was the source I was looking for when I renamed the ref here and I made a mistake.) I'm surprised we're not using this source.
 * Oxfort Art Online also has the 1886 date
 * Speck writes she went to Germany in 1892
 * How do you think is the best way to deal with these various dates? Whichever date is determined to be the most likely should be changed in the text & in the section header. Input from other editors welcomed here, fwiw. Victoria (tk) 15:44, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Since Moszkowski moved to London in 1887 and to Paris in 1897 and did not teach in Berlin during that time it's likely the correct date is 1883. Elisa.rolle (talk) 17:16, 7 October 2019 (UTC)


 * That's interesting, thanks. So that link goes to a reprint of a 1907 book. Here's the 1907 edition. Moszkowski is only mentioned on these pages. In case you can't see it, one page is the index pointing to page 648; that page gives a couple of sentences about Moszkowski but doesn't mention moving to London or Paris or any dates. Are there other sources to pin this down? Another possibility is that Ohflsen did in fact go in 1886, studied with him for a year or 18 months before she developed neuritis and he left Berlin. Victoria (tk) 18:14, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I found this source that mentions he moved to Paris permanently in 1897, but nothing about London in 1887. Victoria (tk) 18:18, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia "In 1887 he was invited to London where he had the chance to introduce many of his orchestral pieces. There he was awarded honorary membership of the Royal Philharmonic Society. Three years later his wife left him for the poet Ludwig Fulda and a divorce was issued two years later." Source is this one "Lazaros C. Triarhou, Moritz Moszkowski, Vol. 67 No. 6 (2012), European Neurology. Accessdate: 10 June 2012" but I'm not sure the linking is correct.Elisa.rolle (talk) 19:28, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * here they say he was awarded an honorary membership, but not that he moved... maybe the wikipedia article is too generic. Elisa.rolle (talk) 19:31, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * So I think it's best to focus on Ohlfsen sources instead of trying to run down Moszkowski. Two Ohlfsen sources give the 1886 date, Free (Oxford Art Online) and NSW Art Gallery, a couple of sources don't give a specific date, this review and this newsletter, authored by her biographer Stephen Miller; and a few give the 1883 date. It's really annoying when something like this happens. We can either decide to stick with the 1883 date and ignore the other sources, but we really shouldn't do that. Personally I think it's a bit too early; she would have been only be 14 years old in 1883 (possibly 15, depending when she left for Germany), and the 1892 date seems a bit late. If I were writing this I'd probably hedge and not give a date and then write a footnote explaining that the date she left Australia is unknown, with dates as early as 1883 suggested and as late as 1892. But it's not uncommon to run into a situation like this with biography sourcing and I'm interested to know how others would deal with this? Victoria (tk) 20:57, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , I'd probably state it as something along the lines of "She moved to Berlin in 1883 (source) or 1886 (source)" unless I had multiple sources giving one date and only a single source saying the other and I didn't think that single source was for whatever reason more likely to be correct. --valereee (talk) 21:37, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , 14 or 15 is not so young considering the time. I too tried to count, considering she attended Sydney High School, but truth be told, women usually attended just primary school; my mother (and we are talking of the 1940s) had to fight everytime to continue her studies: at 10 years old her parents found her a job and the nuns of the school she was attending told them it was a good idea to let her continue, and considering at the time she was the first child and no brothers around, they let her continue; at 13 years old it was again a fight, but she managed to complete a professional institution and even, to her own expenses, enrol to college (which she did not complete, but at the time for a woman in Italy to attend college was unheard of). In Italy the study course is: 6-10=primary, 11-13=secondary 14-18=high school. So 14 or 15 would not be too early for her to attend a conservatory to continue her music career. Elisa.rolle (talk) 07:17, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Ohflsen was born in 1869. According to Free 2004, she attended Sydney Girls High School from 1884 to 1886. If she went to Berlin in 1883, that means she left Australia for Berlin (travelling alone, according to the first source below), then returned to Australia to go to school. But other sources say that she went from Berlin to Russia. Also, 1883 sounds too early for her to have moved to Europe without her family. I haven't been able to find a source that says Moszkowski moved to London. Sources:


 * "About 1883", in Design and Art Australia Online: "The story of her fascinating expatriate career is somewhat complicated by the different versions of it she gave the Australian press on visits to this county; but essentially it appears that, having shown great promise as a pianist, she travelled alone to Germany in about 1883 in order to continue piano studies under Moritz Moszkowski in Berlin, then was forced to abandon this with the onset of neuritis."
 * 1885, in Greg Reeves, "Australia's sons in medals remain", The Sydney Morning Herald, 24 April 1991, p. 26: "In 1885, at just 16, she left rural Victoria to study in Berlin."
 * 1886, in Free (Oxford Art Online), 2004: "In 1886 she left Australia to continue musical studies in Berlin at Kullak’s Neue Akademie der Tonkunst under Moritz Moszkowski (1854–1925)."
 * 1886, in Art Gallery New South Wales: "In 1886, she travelled to Europe to continue her piano studies in Berlin but had to abandon her promising musical career after developing neuritis in her arm."
 * No date, in Steven Miller, "Dora Ohlfsen: Australian by birth, Italian at heart", Friends of the Non-Catholic Cemetery in Rome, Winter 2013: "Dora had moved to Russia from Berlin after completing piano studies at Theodor Kullak's Neue Akademie der Tonkunst."
 * 1892, reportedly in Chanin, Eileen; Miller Steven (2015). Awakening: Four Lives in Art. Mile End, South Australia: Wakefield Press. I don't know what the book says, but the book reviews (e.g. Speck) say 1892.

Until we get hold of Chanin and Miller, I think we should say "in or around 1886", perhaps with a footnote describing the discrepancies. I've emailed Sydney Girls High School to ask if they can confirm the dates she attended. SarahSV (talk) 14:06, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

It was 1892. See "Miss Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge", The Sydney Mail and New South Wales Advertiser, 14 January 1893: " A few weeks ago, at the Misses Albu's benefit concert, Miss Bagge played with M. Kowalski with her uniform success, and, perhaps stimulated by the example of Miss Emilia Wood, she decided to go to Europe to study. This was made easy by generous aid from a girl friend to whom Fortune has been bountiful, and by substantial help from others. The Hon. F. B. Suttor, Minister for Education, and Herr A. Pelldram, Consul-General for Germany, both interested themselves in Miss Bagge's behalf, and the young lady sailed in the German steamer Oldenburg, intending to enter one of the Berlin schools, and before returning to the colony hoping to visit France also."

The Illustrated Sydney News says she left Australia in December 1892 with Emilia Wood: "Miss Emilia Wood, who leaves Australia on Monday next, will be accompanied during her term of study by Miss Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge, the clever Sydney pianiste." There are more articles at this link at trove.nla.gov.au. SarahSV (talk) 13:23, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

"Musical and Dramatic Notes", The Sydney Morning Herald, 24 June 1893: mention of her being taught for free in Berlin by Moskowski and other news from her time there; it looks as though it's a letter from her.

"A few lines from Berlin", The Sydney Mail and New South Wales Advertiser, 13 January 1894: more information from Ohlfsen in Berlin, including a mention of Moskowski directing the Philharmonic in Vienna and Pest.

A Sydney Musician", Inquirer and Commercial News, 6 November 1896: "Amateurs of music will regret to hear that Miss Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge, the young pianist who left this city to study at Berlin, has been obliged to give up work for a time in order to recruit her health (says a Sydney contemporary). Miss Ohlfsen-Bagge studied at Berlin under Herr Moskowski and Fraulein Emma Koch until last autumn, when she broke down, and went to visit friends at Aromenbaun?, on the Gulf of Finland. The young artist has now settled for a time at St. Petersburg ..." SarahSV (talk) 14:14, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks . That's helpful. I suspected it might be 1892 because that's date the NSW Art gallery gives and it goes on to say she returned to Australia in 1912 after a 20 year absence, so that makes more sense. Also, somewhere, can't remember where, I think I read that her collection at the Art Gallery is curated by biographer Steven Miller - I'll try to pin that down.
 * this might seem like a lot of work to you, and honestly it is. But accuracy is important. The best way to deal with a discrepancy is to try to dig a bit more; if additional sources can't be found then we have to note the discrepancy in the article. Everyone works differently but the way I find discrepancies is when I take notes from the sources. However it's done, either on a pad of paper, or a text file, or a sandbox, the process of writing down all the facts from the various sources will make discrepancies glaringly obvious, saving time in the long run.
 * A couple of points:
 * Though you changed the date in this edit, the ref cited uses the 1886 date. Plus I mentioned previously that the sentence doesn't need a ref after the date and a separate one at the end. It looks like Sarah has fixed that.
 * I changed the link for the 1890 financial crash here, because it doesn't make sense that she had a breakdown in 1890 (the date previously there) if she wasn't yet in Berlin; it makes sense for that to have happened later. But I'm not convinced I have the right link; our article History of Australia doesn't seem to have a link for the Great Boom, mentioned at the beginning of the 4th paragraph. Which link do you think makes the most sense?
 * Does all of this make sense? Victoria (tk) 20:14, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry Victoria, I'm leaving tomorrow for the US for a 12 days journey and it's already pretty late here in Italy. I will have to take a break and come back to this later. Elisa.rolle (talk) 20:18, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Not a problem. Let us know when you are ready to return to editing. Enjoy your trip! Victoria (tk) 20:35, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Elisa, I hope you have a safe journey and enjoy your time in the US.
 * Victoria, in the absence of Miller and Chanin, we can use the book reviews combined with the best primary sources. One of the reviews, Hughes 2015, says of the Berlin situation:
 * ""Dora was a talented pianist and like many gifted European migrant children, was sent back to the 'old country' (where the real culture was) to continue her musical studies, which she completed in Berlin. She played for the Kaiser and was about to embark on a performance career when she suffered a breakdown. The reason she gave was too little money. The crash of 1890 had taken its toll on her father's capacity to finance her further, so she retreated to Finland to recuperate with friends. There she met her life-long partner, the Countess Elena von Kügelgen ...""


 * The crash of 1890 would explain why her 1892 move to Berlin had to be financed by people other than her family. Recall "Miss Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge", The Sydney Mail and New South Wales Advertiser, 14 January 1893: "[The move] was made easy by generous aid from a girl friend to whom Fortune has been bountiful, and by substantial help from others. The Hon. F. B. Suttor, Minister for Education, and Herr A. Pelldram, Consul-General for Germany, both interested themselves in Miss Bagge's behalf ..."
 * Also see "Musical and Dramatic Notes", The Sydney Morning Herald, 24 June 1893, which quotes a letter from her about someone having lent her a piano and Moskowski giving her free lessons, from which we can perhaps infer that money was tight.
 * The following is just a thought for now. The 24 June 1893 SMH article says she left for Berlin "early in the year". Our primary source for 1892 is an article implying that she left with Emilia Wood, but I found a passenger list for the ship on which Wood sailed in December 1892, and Ohflsen wasn't on it. If in fact she left in early 1893, it could explain why some sources wrote 1883: it may have begun as a typo. As I said, just a thought. SarahSV (talk) 14:24, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , yes I agree. I've replaced the link with the one that was there. I've had to be out for a few days and fell behind, but I also think without the proper sources it's hard to know what's what. Anyway, since Elisa will be gone for a time, taking a small break from this. Victoria (tk) 00:34, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Inscription2
the article is looking really great! A few weeks ago I bookmarked this German source from g-books. It's only a snippet but the snippet includes the gravestone inscription, if we need a secondary source for that. It's in German, the first three words that are visible say "die inschrifft lautet (the inscription is) and then it has the entire inscription in Italian. You might not be able to see it; if not and if it's something you think might be useful let me know and I'll send a screenshot. In the meantime, thanks for stepping up here. As soon as I can get to it, I'll leave a message for re mentoring & my availability; not looking great for a little while. Victoria (tk) 00:42, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , thanks, and thank you for the book link. I think we're okay for the inscription. I found another source with more details about the inscription and grave, which I'm about to add, assuming I can ever find which tab it's in. Your suggestion that we start the collaboration with this article was well-timed! There have been several articles about the Art Gallery of New South Wales exhibition, Dora Ohlfsen and the facade commission, that began this month. There's another one here at artdaily.com. SarahSV (talk) 19:07, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

, not sure what's going on with the edits. Some of the edits are errors, e.g. removing that the chariot race was on the wall, and that the cancellation wasn't a financial issue (it was, at least in part). SarahSV (talk) 01:02, 18 October 2019 (UTC)'''
 * Point taken. I was editing for clarity and flow, and have fixed some things in between. The on the wall claim didn't make much seance on its face. Ceoil  (talk) 01:04, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * It was hanging on the wall. You changed another section to say that the photographs of the chariot race had been rejected, but it was the commission that was cancelled, at least in part (I believe) for financial reasons. Also, what does this mean, and was Mary Jay living in Rome? I thought it had been an extended visit. SarahSV (talk) 01:15, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah ok fair cop; late at night here, but the intention had been to remove the phrase "during a time" which is a bit needless as 'the time' had already been well established. Its shaping up to be a very fine article nonetheless, and as a VA editor would like to help. Ceoil  (talk) 01:36, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I searched and can't see that "during a time" was in the article, so I'm not sure which bit wasn't clear, but I've tried to clarify the "on the wall" part, which now says: "The chariot-race plaster cast created for the Art Gallery of New South Wales was hanging on the wall ...". SarahSV (talk) 01:50, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * If I clr/find the word 'time' on earlier versions, I get 16 instances. But fine, I'm gone. Apologies for the hardship.  Ceoil  (talk) 02:01, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

International Exhibition of Fine Arts in Rome
Regarding this:

"In 1905 three of her portrait bas-reliefs were shown at the 75th International Exhibition of Fine Arts in Rome, and in 1907 she exhibited medallions and bas-reliefs at "L'Esposizione di Belle Arti"."

I can't find out whether the International Exhibition of Fine Arts in Rome is L'Esposizione di Belle Arti in Roma. I assume it is. Leaving a note here in case anyone knows. SarahSV (talk) 01:01, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

typo
Elisa, there's a probable typo in the quote in the Mussolini section: We stood on chairs there still 5:30 which should possibly be We stood on chairs there till 5:30, but I don't like to change a quote unless I can get to the source. --valereee (talk) 20:23, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Recent expansion
It might be helpful to summarize the recent changes to the article, including a few issues that have cropped up:


 * Since 14 October I've expanded the article from c. 2,500 to 4,889 words. (Dr pda's script lists this as 2,220 words to 3,909 words readable prose size.)
 * I've added a "Selected works" section, with the aim of listing all the work that sources mention. If we ever find enough sources, this could be turned into a table with titles, dates, description, images, and whether extant.
 * The sources are somewhat inconsistent. I've added a paragraph about this and quoted the historian Ros Pesman saying that Ohlfsen and the journalists enjoyed producing a dramatic account of her life. Care should be taken when using the tertiary sources: a few are misleading on a couple of issues and others simply copy earlier tertiary sources.
 * I've added several quotes from Ohlfsen to give readers an idea of her personality.
 * Re: images, I've uploaded and added several, including the four photographs of the chariot race that she sent to the Art Gallery of New South Wales. I retained the lead image but uploaded a larger file without the background. (I first tried removing the smudges but couldn't get rid of them all.) I've sent out several emails asking for releases, including of photographs of the war memorials.
 * Re: newspaper titles, I've followed Hart's Rules (8.2.7, p. 143) and the Chicago Manual of Style (8.170, pp. 531–532). This means not capitalizing the definite article unless the title consists of the definite article and just one other word, and omitting the definite article where it does not modify the title. Quoting Hart's Rules, this gives us: "The Economist; the New Yorker; he wrote for The Times and the Sunday Times; he was the Times correspondent in Beirut; in the next day's Times".
 * Ohlfsen left Sydney on the Oldenburg. We don't have an article on the ship that I can see. It wasn't SMS Oldenburg (1884), a German warship. It seems to have been this steamship built in 1890 in Glasgow. Here are details of its voyage from Sydney to Port Adelaide on 24 December 1892, which is when Ohlfsen reportedly left. I don't know how she got to Bremen, and I haven't found her name on passenger lists, although I've found her friend Emilia Wood who left Sydney around the same time.
 * Our photograph of the Anzac medal (the side with the woman) is almost certainly rotated wrongly, but sources differ as to the correct rotation and which side is the front. One gallery website shows it rotated in different ways on different pages. I have emails in to art galleries and numismatics experts about this. I uploaded the version currently in the article because the source released it under a cc-by licence. Although much of Ohlfsen's artwork is PD in the US (perhaps all), photographs of it may not be free because photographs of three-dimensional art create a new copyright.

I hope this is helpful. The more I've worked on the article, the more interesting I've found her. I'd really like to see the letters she sent the Art Gallery of New South Wales, which apparently span 1908 to the 1920s. Anyway, that's about it for now. SarahSV (talk) 16:35, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Update on the Anzac medal rotation: at the graphics lab has kindly fixed it. SarahSV (talk) 20:00, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm so sorry I wasn't of much help, but if I can do something, reading something or check something else, please let me know. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 22:23, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi, don't worry. I just decided to go for it, and the more I do, the more interesting I find her, so I've kept going.I'm currently trying to track down a copy of Rivista di Roma from May 1908 or thereabouts, which apparently had a feature on her. The HathiTrust has a copy (see here), but it's not available for copyright reasons. I've emailed to ask why, and I'm waiting for a response. Would a library near you have a copy? I'm also trying to find out which building she had her studio in, and whether she lived there too. It sounds odd that both women lived in the same apartment for nearly 50 years. Ultimately I'd like to find a photograph of the building. I may have one already (someone emailed one), but I'm not sure of the copyright status yet, and I want to check that it's the right building. SarahSV (talk) 22:38, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
 * For the Rivista di Roma, I can try to see the Emeroteca here in Padua; of course it would be in Italian, and I can help there too. Elisa.rolle (talk) 09:25, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , that would be very helpful. I don't know which edition it was. An Australian source in May 1908 called it a "recent" edition, and a photograph of Ohlfsen was apparently on the cover. It would be great to get a photograph of that cover to add to the article. I've found two sources for the number of the building she lived in: Via di S. Nicola da Tolentino 72, so I'm going to try to organize a free image of it. It's directly opposite San Nicola da Tolentino agli Orti Sallustiani. There's a plaque on the building about Augustus Saint-Gaudens, who it seems had a studio there or nearby, as apparently did Louisa May Alcott. SarahSV (talk) 19:59, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The Library at the "Deputazione di storia patria per l’Umbria" should have the whole 1908 year of the Rivista di Roma. I wrote to them asking for a copy of the article on Dora. Let's see if they reply. Elisa.rolle (talk) 08:45, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , that's great, thank you. There's still a possibility of getting it from the HathiTrust, and if both possibilities fail, we can try to get it from the university that gave it to the HathiTrust. I've got some of the text. It's the cover and layout that I'd really like to see. SarahSV (talk) 23:26, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * bad news, the emeroteca checked but they skip #4,5,6 ( they said it's probably #5 ). Btw they said #2 is February but #7 is April... so #5 is not May as we believe. Elisa.rolle (talk) 10:05, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , thank you for checking anyway. Looking at these editions on Google Books, it seems the magazine was bi-monthly, which would explain the confusion. I have a citation for the Ohlfsen article: Jahn Aruturo Rusconi, "Un'artista della medaglia", Rivista di Roma, anno xii, fascicolo v, 10 marzo 1908, p. 149. Apparently it contains an image, in black and white, of the de Kuegelgen medallion. SarahSV (talk) 18:51, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
 * has downloaded the article from HathiTrust and uploaded it to Commons. See Category:Dora Ohlfsen in Rivista di Roma. Valereee, I gave it its own category; I hope that's okay. It's a really interesting article with images of several pieces I hadn't seen before. Valereee, thank you again for doing this. SarahSV (talk) 20:10, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Any time! And its own cat was a good idea! --valereee (talk) 20:15, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , now in the article complete with fancy template. SarahSV (talk) 21:09, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , do you want for me to translate it? Elisa.rolle (talk) 21:14, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , I don't want to ask you to do that, because it would be a lot of work, and I don't know how much more of it we could use in the article. But it would be very nice to know what it says, and the translation could be added to its own page on Commons and to the article category. So I'll leave it up to you to decide on cost/benefit and how much time you want to spend on it. Either way, thank you for offering. SarahSV (talk) 22:42, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Dionysus
In case anyone wonders why I removed the top image as non-free and added the second, there's confusion about the copyright status. One of them (I was told the bottom one) was taken by Ohlfsen and sent to her niece, who gave it to the Art Gallery of New South Wales. It wasn't published in Ohlfsen's lifetime, she died before 1949, and I believe it was first published on the gallery website, so we can upload it as PD-US-unpublished. But the top one is signed by her and therefore seems more likely to be the one that she took, so I'll make more inquiries.

I'm also trying to get a release for the photograph of her grave (with Dionysus) that's on the Cimitero Acattolico website. SarahSV (talk) 00:13, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Rivista di Roma
Italian Text: Le arti così dette minori stanno risorgendo e nella considerazione del pubblico e in quella degli artisti. Era tempo! Da troppo lunghi anni l'attivita degli artisti si è rivolta a dipingere grandi quadri o a scolpire grandi statue, quasi che nella mole si riconoscesse il merito dell'artista, trascurando tutte le varie e molteplici forme minori dell'arte che per tanti secoli avevano formato il vanto degli artisti e il piacere degli uomini. L'arte si è andata a poco a poco allontanando dal pubblico e dalla vita per restringersi in una muta torre di avorio donde la sua voce non ha più avuto il modo di farsi udire. Da qualche anno fortunatamente, il grande movimento iniziato in Inghilterra dal gruppo di preraffaelliti in favore dell'arte decorativa (il solo movimento che abbia lasciato veramente traccia di sé), ha risvegliato mirabili energie in ogni campo dell'arte, preparando una rinascita di arte applicata che darà frutti rigogliosi, magnifici e duraturi. Fra i vari generi maggiormente trascurati, uno dei più interessanti e dei più degni di attenzione è senza dubbio l'arte della medaglia che in questi ultimi tempi specialmente è discesa ad un grado di decadenza doloroso, presso tutti i popoli. Nell'attuale risveglio per le arti decorative, la medaglistica è stata assai poco curata. Solo da pochissimi anni alcuni geniali artisti francesi, e primo di tutti lo Charpentier, si sono rivolti a ravvivare e rialzare quest’arte nobilissima tanto male considerata. Dietro lo Charpentier si è avviata fortunatamente una giovane scuola che lascia bene sperare per la rinascita dell'arte della medaglia in tutta Europa. Intanto ecco che la lontana, lontanissima Australia ci reca un esempio ed un ammaestramento prezioso. Quella vasta terra, apparsa da tanto poco tempo alla luce della civiltà, ha mandato tra noi un'elettissima artista, che fin dalle sue prime manifestazioni, fin dalle sue prime opere, si e gagliardamente affermata per spirito giovanile, audace e indipendente. Nella pittura come nella scultura Miss Dora Ohlfsen ha saputo perseguire la sua visione con un entusiasmo ed una fede che molti uomini dovrebbero imitare, se pure la fede e l’entusiasmo si possono imitare. Nei pochi anni del suo soggiorno in Roma la geniale artista ha rivelato nel mondo artistico cosmopolita che vive e lavora tra noi, un temperamento dei più interessanti e dei più affascinanti, fatto di robustezza e di grazia squisita. Attratta fin da principio dall'arte della medaglia, la signorina Ohlfsen ha alternato la pittura con questa scultura sottile e suggestiva, e mentre eseguiva alcuni grandi ritratti ad olio ed a pastello, che sono e saranno a lungo ammirati come la manifestazione di un ingegno severo e personale, riposava la sua mano e il suo spirito nella creazione di alcuni medaglioni e di alcune placchette, impeccabili nella forma, e di un gusto perfetto. Perché la signorina OhIfsen ha saputo costringere nel breve spazio di una medaglia tutto il carattere, tutta la grazia, tutto il pensiero delle persone raffigurate. Essa ha indicato così un più ampio orizzonte all'arte della medaglia, costringendo nel suo breve cerchio tutta l'ampiezza di un ritratto perfetto. Nei suoi piani bassi e schiacciati, nei suoi chiaroscuri appena accennati dalle ombre, essa raccoglie tutta la squisita armonia di un profilo femminile come il carattere robusto e duro di un profilo maschile. Talchè in questi ultimi anni accanto al ritratto di Mattia Battistini, a quello dell'arcivescovo di Trento, a quello del pittore Basilici e ad altri numerosi, sono quelli della contessa de Lutzow, della principessa Rospigliosi, di donna Nicoletta Grazioli, di Miss Hodgson, di M.lle de Kuegelgen, di Salomea Krusceniska,, che non rivelano soltanto la grande varietà dell'arte e la perfetta abilità dell'esecuzione, ma eprimono con la forma migliore dell'evidenza la personalità varia delle varie persone, colta nei suoi aspetti più significativi e più fuggevoli. Così l'arte della medaglia apre innanzi a sè tutto un nuovo orizzonte, per il quale si riattacca assai strettamente alla fioritura magnifica della medaglistica italiana del ‘400. Lo spirito di un Pisanello, d'un Boldù o d'un Matteo dei Pasti rivive nelle tenui e robuste medaglie della giovanissima scultrice. Esse, nelle loro forme sottili, schiacciate, nei piani bassi e moderati che hanno un giuoco di luce e di ombre necessariamente ristretto, vibrano di un intenso spirito E mentre nei ritraiti maschili è cosi energicamente espresso il carattere ed il pensiero, in quelli femminili alita uno spirito di grazia così sottile e così languido, quale i grandi prototipi del Quattrocento non hanno saputo esprimere. La grazia e La soavità e l'eleganza femminile più raffinala e più moderna che la scultura tenta ancora invano di esprimere, e la pittura non riesce sempre a rappresentare interamente hanno trovalo la loro migliore celebrazione in queste deliziose medaglie di bronzo e d'argento. Così l’asprezza della materia e la ristrettezza della mole non impediscono e non turbano l'armonia delle cose, che nella loro perfetta misura non subiscono limitazione di spazio, ma si rivelano nella loro più piena interezza. E in tal modo dal ritratto in medaglia è facile e necessario passare alla vera composizione, della quale, oltre la graziosa placchetta qui riprodotta, ci dà un delicato ed espressivo esempio la bella medaglia che celebra il sorgere dell’Australia. Nel rovescio di questa medaglia la scultrice ha tentato, con audacia senza pari, la rappresentazione di un ampio e solenne paesaggio sul quale pascolano le greggi custodite dai guardiani. E la rappresentazione, con la sua vasta prospettiva, è riuscita quanto mai viva ed efficace, dimostrando ancora una volta che le difficoltà della tecnica scompaiono innanzi all'entusiasmo della fede sincera di un artista. Così l'opera della giovane scultrice appresta non pochi e non effimeri ammaestramenti, e sta ad indicare le vie migliori per le quali l'arte della medaglia può arrivare alle sue più alte espressioni. di vita, come talune tra le più famose medaglie del nostro Rinascimento.

English translation: The so-called minor arts are being resurrected and taken into consideration by the public and the artists. It was time! For too long years the activity of the artists has turned to large paintings or large statues, almost as if the artist's merit was recognized in the bulk, neglecting all the various and multiple minor forms of art that for so many centuries had formed the pride of the artists and the pleasure of men. The art has gradually gone away from the public and from life to shrink into a silent ivory tower from where its voice has not had the means to be heard. For some years fortunately, the great movement started in England by the group of Pre-Raphaelites in favor of decorative art (the only movement that has really left a trace of itself), has awakened wonderful energies in every field of art, preparing a revival of applied art that will give lush, magnificent and long-lasting fruits. Among the various genres most neglected, one of the most interesting and most worthy of attention is undoubtedly the art of the medal, which in recent times especially has descended to a degree of painful decline, among all peoples. In the present awakening for the decorative arts, the medal has been very little cured. Only a few years ago some brilliant French artists, and first of all the Charpentier, turned to revive and raise this very noble art, so badly considered. Fortunately, behind the Charpentier, a young school has begun which bodes well for the revival of the art of the medal throughout Europe. Meanwhile, here is the far, far away Australia, which gives us an example and valuable training. That vast land, which had appeared for such a short time in the light of civilization, sent an elite artist among us, who from her earliest manifestations, right from her earliest works, has affirmed herself with a youthful, bold and independent spirit. In painting as in sculpture Miss Dora Ohlfsen has been able to pursue her vision with an enthusiasm and a faith that many men should imitate, even if faith and enthusiasm can be imitated. In the few years of her stay in Rome, the brilliant artist revealed in the cosmopolitan artistic world that lives and works among us, a temperament of the most interesting and most fascinating, made of strength and exquisite grace. Attracted from the beginning by the art of the medal, Miss Ohlfsen alternated painting with this subtle and suggestive sculpture, and while performing some large oil and pastel portraits, which are and will be long admired as the manifestation of a severe and personal geniality, she rested her hand and her spirit in the creation of some medallions and some plaques, impeccable in shape, and of a perfect taste. Because Miss OhIfsen knew how to force all the character, all the grace, all the thought of the people depicted in the short space of a medal. She thus indicated a broader horizon to the art of the medal, forcing in its short circle all the breadth of a perfect portrait. In her low and flattened floors, in her chiaroscuro barely touched by the shadows, she collects all the exquisite harmony of a female profile like the robust and hard character of a male profile. In recent years, alongside the portrait of Mattia Battistini, that of the Archbishop of Trento, that of the painter Basilici and many others, are those of the Countess de Lutzow, of the princess Rospigliosi, of Donna Nicoletta Grazioli, of Miss Hodgson, of M.lle de Kuegelgen, of Salomea Krusceniska, which not only reveal the great variety of art and the perfect ability to perform, but they express with the best form of evidence the varied personality of the various people, caught in their aspects more significant and more fleeting. Thus the art of the medal opens up before itself a whole new horizon, for which it is re-attached very closely to the magnificent flowering of the Italian medals of the ‘400. The spirit of a Pisanello, a Boldù or a Matteo dei Pasti revives in the tenuous and robust medals of the very young sculptor. They, in their thin, flattened forms, in the low and moderate planes that have a necessarily restricted play of light and shadows, vibrate with an intense spirit of life, like some of the most famous medals of our Renaissance. And while in the male portraits the character and thought is so energetically expressed, in the feminine ones she breathes a spirit of grace so subtle and so languid, which the great prototypes of the fifteenth century were unable to express. The grace and gentleness and the most refined and modern feminine elegance that the sculpture still tries in vain to express, and the painting does not always manage to represent entirely have found their best celebration in these delicious bronze and silver medals. Thus the harshness of the material and the narrowness of the bulk do not prevent and do not disturb the harmony of things, which in their perfect measure do not suffer from limitation of space, but reveal themselves in their fullest entirety. And so from the portrait in the medal it is easy and necessary to pass to the true composition, of which, besides the graceful plaque reproduced here, it gives us a delicate and expressive example of the beautiful medal that celebrates the rise of Australia. On the flip side of this medal, the sculptress has attempted, with unparalleled audacity, the representation of a large and solemn landscape on which the herds guarded by the guardians graze. And the representation, with its vast perspective, has succeeded as much alive and effective as ever, proving once again that the difficulties of technology disappear before the enthusiasm of an artist's sincere faith. Thus the work of the young sculptor prepares many and not ephemeral teachings, and indicates the best ways for which the art of the medal can reach its highest expressions. the Italian was very arcaic, but this should be a good translation. Elisa.rolle (talk) 10:10, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * , thank you very much for doing this. I started posting it on a sub talk page, but I want to check first that this is your own English translation. If it's a Google translation, it might be under copyright, so we could use bits of it but couldn't (I assume) post it in its entirety. SarahSV (talk) 20:13, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * , another thing that I did not know, sorry. I'm not s professionale translator so I usually start from a draft with Google and then check sentence by sentence if it's correct. The he/she/it were wrong and I think some single words, but the majority, to my surprise was correct. So please delete the above text I do not want to incur in a trouble. I did not know it wasn't allowed. Elisa.rolle (talk) 08:23, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
 * see here: --> "Given the situation of a Wikipedian using Google to translate compatibly licensed content, it is very unlikely that the use of that content on Wikipedia violates any Google copyrights. Assuming that any derivative copyright attaches, it is most probable that the Wikipedian would own it. Since the source material is presumably available by CC-BY-SA 3.0 or a similar license, the translated work would be safe for use on Wikipedia as long as its source is properly attributed." Elisa.rolle (talk) 09:16, 2 November 2019 (UTC)