Talk:Double push

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I've heard Hedrick say in interviews that he uses the dp on ice occasionally, not always, that it depends on the situation. As I watch him in the Olympics I see him use it a from time to time. It's hard to tell for sure on ice.

In response to the "Tone" marker, I've attempted a significant rewrite of this article. This is my first significant contribution to wikipedia, so all constructive comments are welcome. Still to do: Daniel Barlow 01:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * finish up the "Advantages" and find one or more sources to substantiate the claims in the earlier draft that I added "some hold" and "some claim" weasel words around. (Publow says DP-on-ice is not possible, but things may have moved on since then)
 * find or create appropriate pictures/diagrams
 * more on the "when is a skater ready to learn DP" controversy
 * mention DP workshops (Publow, Matzger, etc)
 * History paragraph is kind of stilted

Web references for DP on ice
http://www.racereports.net/ReportDetail.asp?Race=150 http://www.fasst.com/articles/2004jan/2004jan-inline-evolution.htm http://www.askaboutskating.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3607&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Daniel Barlow 18:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

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I did a total rewrite _07:05, 9 February 2006 Gary84 (total rewrite)_. I'm not sure why all the discussion I included about inside edges vs. outside edges got deleted by various people, I thought it was pretty good. I'm missing something...? This language added about "Some claim it's possible ..." I mean... of course it's possible to do it on ice, go to an ice skating facility and try it yourself, it's not a "some claim", it's an "it is". It's not very effective on ice, but you can briefly feel force against the outside edge... can't you?

Good call. The more interesting question is probably not whether it's possible but whether it's more useful than classic push - as you say, it's not very effective. If only "I tried it myself, it's obvious" was a verifiable source, wikipedia would be ... well, bigger, for a start ;-)  Daniel Barlow 20:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Comparative explanation of ice blade profiles needed somewhere
Comment from 147.10.92.159 that got lost in editing but deserves a home somewhere : "Basically, an ice blade can never be perpendicular to the ice, it must always be on either the inside or outside edge (note, this does not apply to ice hockey blades or figure skating blades, they have a recess in the centre of the blade allowing for stability when the blade is perpendicular to the ice) ."

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Gary84 says,

1. DP On Ice. The proof in the pudding for the success of DP on inlines was competitors winning medals with it, and other competitors copying the technique. Hedrick, as we all saw in the Olympics, did incredibly well overall, especially for a newbie to ice speedskating with an unrefined technique. The key question we are all dancing around is, how much of his success is attributed to using the DP on ice? That's a hard question to answer without feedback from him, the coaches and the competitors who took part. Personally I think it played an important role. Based on his success in the Olympics I think it's reasonable to assume that the ice speed skating world is studying the video and experimenting with the technique. I agree that citations from the experts is what is needed.

2. Right, Left, and Edge. I think it is very important to use the words "right foot" and "left foot" and "inside edge" and "outside edge" in the language that describes the mechanics of the DP. I see you added some of this language back in, but not to the same extent that I originally had it. I would like the article to contain a description of the DP that is sufficient for an avid amateur recreational inline skater, who does not know how to do it, and wants to try it, to "get it" and do it. We need to try to read what it written, from the standpoint of a beginner, and ask ourselves if we think it's clear.

1) Very true, and I'd add biomechanics experts to that list. I'm not so much dancing around the question as freely admitting we don't know yet.    To the best of my knowledge it's not yet been adopted by other competitors and there's no clear mechanical reason it should help - it might be that Hedrick has found a way to go faster which others can usefully adopt, or it be a quirk of his particular physiology, or it might just be that he slips back into old habits under pressure and his muscle memory for the DP is so good that it makes him go faster despite being less effective.  I'd rather the article left this open until we know more than speculated without facts.

2) In fact I haven't touched that part of the text since your previous comment, so I guess you were looking at an older version (or maybe it just doesn't look as bad on second reading as it did at first ;-) At this point I think what would add most to it is a couple of diagrams showing birds-eye views of the wheel tracks in classic push and DP.  http://home1.gte.net/pjbemail/dpfront.html has the kind of thing I'm thinking of (I'm not sure about the rest of the analysis there, but the diagrams are good).

This is an encyclopedia not a "how to skate" guide, so I don't think this needs to be a tutorial - if you want to learn to doublepush, find a coach or instructor who'll teach you. (Besides, if we're going to write a doublepush tutorial then maybe we should first do an effective classic push tutorial - wikipedia doesn't have one of those either). But I do agree it needs to be clear enough that a skater can at least recognise DP when it's happening - and ideally to distinguish it from the various kinds of fake doublepush that abound (understeer without actual push being the most common). Daniel Barlow 21:55, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

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Gary84 says,

2. I am an avid recreational inline skater, by no means elite. Sometimes I use the DP. When I do, I can definitely feel the force of my own weight during the underpush. I can feel the velocity boost too. If someone wants to add some discussion about the physics of it here, then perhaps it will be quantized. I've seen the websites that go into the detail, like the only you referenced. Interesting stuff.

Yes, it does not need to be a tutorial. That was helpful discussion Daniel. I made some minor edits, shortened sentances, eliminated run-ons, and restored some edge language. As you know, the golden rule is that if you can eliminate a word without losing the essential point then you should eliminate the word.

--- Nice edits - that does make it a bit clearer. When I have more some free time I'll have a go at that diagram, but probably not for a few days at least Daniel Barlow 10:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)