Talk:Doughnut/Archive 1

Origin of hole in Doughnuts
I have my own theory about the hole. I am originally from Belgium. In Belgium, what we commonly call "Beignets" are made with a slice of apple, cored (leaving a flat disc of apple with a round hole in the middle), dipped in batter, and deep fried. Because the apple slice is cored, and because we use a rising batter (traditionally using beer as a leavening agent), the end result has exactly the same shape as an American donut (but, I would argue is much better...). I am always shocked to find that no one ever refers to this as a possible origin for the shape of the donut... seems pretty obvious to me. Eric Ponslet

Deleted a little bit in the Origins section, since it adds nothing and is not encyclopedia quality: "Or maybe, some random person dropped dough into the the frier,and had to get it out by puncturing the middle of that ball of dough. Therefore, this created the "signature" hole in the doughnut." 83.70.163.196 19:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Addicted to Doughnuts?
I don't know if American popular culture implies that cops are addicted to doughnuts. That should be maybe changed to love or especially like eating. VarunRajendran

Chichis - unfried donuts?
There are many references on the web (possibly all repetitions of a single reference) to 'chichis' as being a type of Spanish doughnut (in direct comparison/cunjuction with porras and bunelos).

The only chichis recipes I have found that are not cocktail recipes, are for sweet 'chewy fruit balls' which don't seem to involve frying, so can't really be doughnuts (unless we invent the new category of unfried doughnuts, not quite as unconventional as it sounds, when you consider the well established 'cookie dough ice-cream' where the dough wasn't intended to be used to make cookies!


 * I live in France, and Chichis are a staple of carnival fair food here, and they are definitely made from deep fried batter. Kind of beignet in the French mind, though I'm not sure what the relationship is between the doughnut and the French beignet. --Svartalf 03:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I am a Jelly Doughnut
Kennedy was actually correct: by saying 'I am a "Berliner"' he expressed his emotional affinity to post-war Berlin. This is correct German and hits the point. The way he said it, it meant that he is true son of the city. If he would have said 'I am "Berliner"', it would have meant that he is simply living there (which was of course not the case). He was simply expressing his emotional attachment the people living in Berlin in the times of the cold war. He was very much appreciated for that at that time, and most of those who remeber his visit still do appreciate what he said as an act of solidarity. In fact, Kennedy was and is still one of the most popular US politicians over here here (which is definitly not the case with the piece of junk sitting in the white house over there right now!)


 * Another urban myth bites the dust. So, in German, are "I am emotionally attached to Berlin" and "I am a jam doughnut" identical in print? -- Heron


 * A "Berliner" can also mean "Berliner Weisse", wheat beer with raspberry syrup - but in context, no one will confuse any of the three meanings. Henry Troup


 * Same goes for 'I am a Frankfurter' (type of sausage), 'I am a Hamburger'. If you are from Limburg, you should watch out, though, since this is also a quite smelly cheese :-) --Guest

By saying "ein", he was referring to a singular noun, rather than the plural usage of Berliner, therefore this is an accurate translation rather than a mistranslation. He actually said he was a doughnut, whether he meant it or not. (155) 5 Aug 05.
 * See Ich bin ein Berliner and its references for coverage of the topic. -- Norvy (talk) 15:44, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

It is wrong too. (155) 5 Aug 05.

Isle of Wight
Under the history section, what's the evidence behind the isle of wight claim ? --Imran 00:00 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * A hyperlink has been inserted into the main page to address the Isle of Wight issue.


 * Ericross

I am NOT a Dutch doughnut
The Dutch do not call doughnuts oliebollen -- this term is reserved for actual oliebollen, raisin-filled dough balls traditionally had around the New Year celebrations. Doughnuts are called, believe it or not, 'donuts'. (No, not doughnuts, unless it happens to say that on an imported wrapper...) --JRM


 * JRM above adds some interesting and useful detail about Oliebollen and New Year celebrations. Many recipe books do indeed refer to Oliebollen as "Dutch Doughnuts" (and a few call them Dutch Donuts"). Consequently, I am reintroducing this into the article (together with the New Year celebrations aspect) but I would obviously defer to anyone who can illustrate why this is definitely unreasonable.


 * Ericross

I am NOT a French Market doughnut
A beignet is rectangular and has no hole, and although the ingredients are sometimes similar, it has a slightly different consistency than doughnuts, probably because the dough in the center of the beignet, being left intact, cooks at a different temperature than the dough surrounding it. It's more like a fritter without the filling (think of a Dolly Madison pie without the jelly), and at least in New Orleans, it's served with a healthy dusting of confectioner's sugar.

Some recipes do call beignets "French Market doughnuts", or refer to beignets as doughnuts. But I think the use of the word "donut" in such a context is to bridge a foreign idea (the beignet) to a familiar one (the doughnut), but is not meant as a literal synonym. Is an English muffin anything like a blueberry muffin?

I think this is the same objection that JRM had regarding "oliebollen", and why Ericross is misinterpreting "Dutch donuts". In other words, the recipe books using the phrase "Dutch donuts" are trying to bridge a foreign idea (oliebollen) to a familiar one (the doughnut), but not the other way around.

For example, somebody in China could describe "spaghetti" to his children as "the Italian chow mein", although it's clearly meant as an analogy, not a synonym.

WTH is the image?
Will somebody explain just what kind of screwed up doughnut that's supposed to be in that image? It looks more like a chili dog in a sesame seed bun than any donut I've ever seen. -- Cyrius|&#9998; 19:02, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Vandals?
Is it just me or has somebody vandalised this page with references to sperm and ejaculation? Should somebody remove these parts?


 * and what's with the "yeast-mustard" thing? Henry Troup

Prefer "doughnut" over "donut"
These are spelling variants of the same word, not synonyms, so this article should be consistent in which form it uses. Since the article's title is already "doughnut" (with "donut" redirecting here) I took the hard-like approach of replacing every occurrence of "donut" with "doughnut", except where the former occurred as part of a proper noun (as with "Dunkin' Donuts"), a quoted phrase, or a link.

I request that future editors of this article adopt this convention as well. jmac 19:37, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Alternate production method for ring doughnut
Ring doughnuts are sometimes made by frying a ring of dough, so that there is no "hole" to be fried separately. For instance, this is how Krispy Kreme makes them. (If you haven't been to a Krispy Kreme to see their doughnut-making machine in operation, plan a trip!) --Brouhaha 21:31, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

One thing I've never understood is: if the hole in the middle is to prevent raw dough in the middle, how are non-holed doughnuts (such as filled doughnuts) made?

The non-ringed doughnut is made and baked. And then the donut is pushed into a tube which is on a jam/filling filler. A button is pressed and the filling is "injected" into the donut, this is why many jam filled donuts have "holes" in. I know this from a bakery in an ASDA store I worked on once. Also the reason (I believe) that non-ringed donuts do not get raw dough in the middle is the way the donut is made. Ring donuts tend to be much denser and tough. Whilst non-ringed donuts are soft and more spongy. I hope this helps clear your questions and such. Falc 14:17, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

To answer the question you have to understand there are basically two types of donuts in North America and Europe, cake and yeast.

Cake are almost always now ring shaped and are the more dense types and different flavors, such as the chocolate donut or "French" crullers. They are prepared by making the batter and then fried. Originally they were not ringed but with various mechanical means they could make them into rings. This is the kind you see when the batter is directly fried. for cake holes an interchangeable part of the machine is used.

Yeast are your basic glazed and filled type donuts, also used for fritters and most other fancy items you find in a donut store. Here the batter is made and allowed to raise similar to bread. Then it is cut into rings or shells(for filled) this is done using different cutters, at this time you also get the hole. some places put a hole into a ring so the finished product is an shell with a nice design. Excess holes and extra dough is just rolled out and recut, some amount is kept aside to make fritters and other items both baked and fried. The rings,shells,holes and etc are placed on racks and then put into the proofer(a hot box with high humidity) so that they will raise. They are then fried or baked. For fring there is really no difference in time if they are rings or shells, the hole in the middle does not matter much with your modern high temperature fryers, you might get a few that have a small part of them uncooked but with the filling pushed into them the consumer would never know.

For your basic glazed ring they are glazed a few mins after being pulled from the grease, so that they are hot and the glaze just puts a thin coating on them if done when they are cold the coating is thick. The shells are allowed to cool to room temperature and then covered in powdered sugar and filled by mechanical or pasty bag means. WD 13 Oct 2006

Vandalism?
Article says that in Czech republic doughtnuts (or their alternative) are called "Cheregi". I'm from Czech republic and I didn't ever heard this word, it even doesn't sound like a Czech word. The list of foreign terms should be verified.

Research shows that the original place where this was found these online under 'Czech Republic' is proving hard to find, but there are several references to 'Slovak' for this term 'Cheregi', so that aspect will now me included in the article.

Ich bin ein Berliner
''American president John F. Kennedy, during a 1963 visit to Berlin, famously declared "Ich bin ein Berliner" which means "I am a jelly doughnut." He should have said "Ich bin Berliner" meaning "I am a citizen of Berlin." ''

or

''American president John F. Kennedy, during a 1963 visit to Berlin, famously declared "Ich bin ein Berliner" which can be mistranslated as "I am a jelly doughnut." See Ich bin ein Berliner''

The Ich bin ein Berliner article states the jelly donut translation is wrong. I think the article should just state that the quote is often mis-translated and leave the rest up to the Ich bin ein Berliner article. If someone wants to know what should have been said or if what Kennedy said was actually correct they can visit the other article. commonbrick 21:22, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Is this really that relevant to the Doughnut article? I'm not sure any mention of it is warranted.  -- Norvy (talk) 15:13, 5 August 2005 (UTC)


 * No. I've taken it out. commonbrick 19:57, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Severe pruning of FAQ section
I believe, quite firmly, that the FAQ section is inappropriate for a number of reasons: FAQ's should not be in an encyclopedia; the questions are not "typically asked"; the whole tone implies the reader is dim-witted; and some of the material is so inane it detracts from the rest of the article, which is long enough without it. I would prefer to delete it all, but some of the material seems worth keeping, so I am going to change stuff around. If anyone has a problem with this, please discuss here. --Mothperson 14:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The FAQ was started by two people arguing about the definition of a donut. I think "Variations and Specialties by Region" could also be eliminated too; it adds nothing to the article. The "Types" section is also pretty useless in my opinion. Maybe Types and Specialties could be merged into one article about donuts around the world so they don't clutter up the main article. commonbrick 16:27, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. You want to do it?  I'm afraid if I start, well...  I'll help.  Why don't you take out what you think is useless, and I'll come back later and do some work, too.  The thing was getting me down earlier.  I had just whacked out Fudge Puppies when I decided perhaps it was was time to leave before I got too crazy.  Thanks. --Mothperson 16:56, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I renamed types to regional variations, and really weeded out a lot of stuff that wasn't doughnut appropriate. I changed fried dough foods to a see also, where they really belong (and a number already are).  I also removed the list of doughnut names in other countries as suggested above.  And I did a bunch of little changes.  -- Norvy (talk) 16:07, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks Norvy. I was going to work on this article today since my classes are now over and I don't work tomorrow but I see you already cleaned the article up. Thanks again and you did a good job. commonbrick 21:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I would like to add my public thanks as well. You took my kudzu-covered challenge and cut through it all.  I am astonished and grateful. A virtual gold-plated weedwhacker with a doughnut handle to Norvy.  --Mothperson 18:40, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lupin
No need for needless and somewhat needling editorializing on the edit summary about removing a few caps. If you'd seen this article before. But thanks anyway for decapping. --Mothperson 13:01, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tora Tora Torus!
Just a thought re: the torus-shaped ring doughnut.

Look up torus, and what does it say? "Doughnut-shaped". Aren't we going round in rings here? Can we have just the ring doughnut? I think that conveys in itself the fact that it's ring-shaped... -- Picapica 20:49, 10 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Man, the irony is so thick...--Planetary 05:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Doughnuts on display picture
The B&W "Doughnuts on display" is one of the least appetizing pictures I've ever seen. True, we're not trying to sell doughnuts here, and we have to be NPOV and all, but wouldn't a more lively picture convey the fascination with this pastry better? The picture at the top is great; does someone have a non-copyrighted one showing some different types? OwenX 15:17, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

That would be nice. Also nice would be a picture of one of those machines that ferry the doughnuts out to the boiling fat where they throw themselves in, turn over, and end up being tossed out into powdered sugar. Could you go look? I can't handle images here yet. --Mothperson cocoon 20:44, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Wait a minute
I should have noticed this before, but there was too much else going on in the article prior to the major pruning. But where is the information coming from about the respective fat contents and weights of yeast-raised vs. cake doughnuts??? Something seems not right. For one thing - the definition of the doughnuts being compared is completely lacking. I started to edit, and then quit, because I don't know who was writing about what. And isn't it sort of requisite to have the weights and temperatures in ounces and Fahrenheit as well as grams and Celsius, given the doughnut's origins? --Mothperson cocoon 20:44, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Bismarcks?
What part of Germany does call Doughnut Bismarcks?--Hhielscher 18:01, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Donuts to Dollars
Can someone please explain the "donuts to dollars" saying? Does anyone know how it got started?


 * Since doughnuts cost much less than a dollar each, betting "dollars to doughnuts" means giving someone incredibly high odds on the bet, since whoever is making the offer is sure of his win. E.g., "I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that we'll never find a way to stop vandalism here." Why specifically doughnuts?  I suspect it's the alliteration (repeating initial 'D'). Owen&times;  &#9742;  20:01, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Spelling and word origin
Has anyone ever given any thought to the idea that at one time the spelling might have been "Dough-naught" with the 'naught' referring to the 'zero' like shape the dough is formed in? Is there any evidence to refute this or am I simply a genius for discovering this?
 * I suppose it makes more sense than them being named after nuts (of nuts and bolts), which I'm sure hadn't been invented at the time of donut creation, but perhaps had been at the time of donut naming.
 * As suggested by the Irving quote, the spelling "doughnut" came before the invention of the hold doughnut. --Kneague 18:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I concur. It seems logical. 67.188.172.165 22:46, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Connection to Bagels
The article states "There is no historical connection between bagels and doughnuts." I find this somewhat hard to believe, its not a huge jump to consider deep frying something instead of baking or boiling it. I don't think we should be stating this as a fact unless it can be proven one way or the other. Suppafly 18:36, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Bagels are made of bread, and donuts are made of cake.


 * What criteria are you using to make a distinction? Suppafly 16:25, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * They seem similar enuf to me...Cameron Nedland 02:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Homer, Homer again
In what's probably a case of amateur editing by people who haven't read all the way through the article, it's mentioned twice that Homer Simpson likes doughnuts. Not sure if this even deserves to be in there once, but twice is overkill. I say the first mention is the more incongruous -- any one care to disagree? --Heath 66.32.1.24 23:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Proposed move
doughnut (food) to doughnut. Why is (food) in the title anyway? doughnut already redirects to this article, so the article should be at simply doughnut. Car salesman 15:04, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~ 


 * Support reflexive redirect --Lox (t,c) 19:28, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per nomination. LuiKhuntek 20:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Suppafly 21:04, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Support //MrD9 00:16, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

-- done dml 01:05, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Pizza and hamburger come from the US?
The article says pizza and hamburger come from the US, which seems quite obviously wrong. Pizza comes from Italy, hamburger is more controversial. Eulen 08:41, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually pizza comes from ancient Greece.Cameron Nedland 02:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * ACTUALLY it's not known where Pizza comes from. There are several theories for it, some point to Greece while others point directly at American origins. There are facts, though. It's a fact that Pizza was not a popular dish in Italy before it was made popular in the U.S. and it's also a fact that the name "Pizza" didn't come from Italy but was, on the contrary, adopted there after its popularity in the U.S. So no. It's not "Obviously" wrong and you people would do well to think twice before making sweeping statements and question yourselves: "Am I saying this because it sounds obvious?" (first case) or "Am I saying this because I read it once and it sounds nice and tidy?" (second case). --eduo 17:48, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge Timbits
Timbits is just a Canadian name for doughnut balls. Doesn't deserve its own article - it should be merged as a small mention in the main doughnut article. Bwithh 19:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. This has, essentially, already been covered in the discussion following the Nov '05 suggestion to delete the article entirely.  (The archive of the discussion is is linked at the top of Talk:Timbits).  Please see Articles_for_deletion/Timbits, where you will note that 23/24 responses moved to KEEP the article, and only one (an American) moved to delete or merge with Doughnut.  In Canada (at least my part of it), a Timbit is not simply a Canadian name for doughnut balls.  In a real sense for me, "doughnut ball" is almost an interloper term... a generic name for Timbits.  Much like how, in Canada, Interac is synonymous with debit card.  Even if you are unfamiliar with the term's prevalence, that does not mean it does not carry importance of its own.  If you merge Timbits into Doughnut I fully expect you to move to merge Kleenex into facial tissue, and Q-tips into cotton swab.  Mr. Cat 21:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. As Mr. Cat said, "If you merge Timbits into Doughnut I fully expect you to move to merge Kleenex into facial tissue, and Q-tips into cotton swab."  Timbits are a cultural icon in Canada, in the same way that Big Mac is a cultural icon in the United States. SweetP112 21:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Strongly disagree for reasons stated above. Av 08:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Strongly disagreeas per above and for personal reasons, I'm not going to open a user name User:HaveBeenMergedToDoughnut.

--TimBits 19:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Strongly disagree: Why? Timbits are a special trademarked word that has been generalised in Canada. Timbit(s) is a word, compared to doughnut balls. Therefore, I think it deserves its own article. Furthermore, I think it ties into Canadian tradition, identity and history. The word timbit is sometimes referred to something small ("This thing is like... timbit sized..." or "This thing is like a timbit" -- refers to the small size of an object). Therefore, I think Timbit should have its own article. -- Cncxbox, large Timbits consumer :p. [[Image:Flag of Canada.svg|25px|  ]] (June 11th, 2006 - 23:40 EST)

Origin of the process for sticking powdered sugar on doughnuts?
There is an unreferenced claim in the E._E._Smith entry, "Persistent but unconfirmed accounts maintain that Dr. Smith developed the first process for sticking powdered sugar on doughnuts," which I would like to substantiate or remove. This would have been sometime after 1936, while Dr. Smith was the chief Donut Weevil for for the Dawn Doughnut Company of Jackson, Michigan. Can anyone confirm or deny this? The earliest web source I've been able to find for this is Computer games: 40 years of fun, ZDNet UK, November 23, 2001 by Graeme Wearden, who hasn't responded to my inquiry. FlashSheridan 17:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no real trick to getting powdered sugar to stick to donuts, it happens because donuts have a moist surface because they are fried in grease. You do have to powder the donuts when they have cooled otherwise the powdered sugar will soak up to much grease and the layer of sugar will be to much.

Doughnut Chains
The article can't sustain the inclusion of every 20 location doughnut chain on the planet. Even if each American state has only one state-only chain 'worth' mentioning, that's a list of 50 entries. This list will get too long very quickly. I suspect that some of the others (that I didn't remove) on this list aren't worthy of inclusion either, but the user who added the last one (Daylight Donuts) specifically mentioned the limited range (so no offense to Daylight Donuts, but you're not Dunkin Donuts, or Tim Hortons!) - BalthCat 12:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

1st printed use
I changed our reference to WI from "1st printed use" to "early printed use" because a check of Newsbank's Early Amerrican Newspapers database gave a hit from 1808:


 * "Time was, when the girls had their young friends with them of an evening...then the company sat round the large round table to their tea, while a plentiful supply of fire-cakes and dough-nuts furnished out the repast..." "Sketches & Views", The Times (Boston); Date: 1808-01-30; Vol: I; Iss: 8; Page: [29].

I'm sure there are earlier references available in print, so I doubt that this is the first. It is apparently earlier than WI though. --JJay 19:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks! - BalthCat 19:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem. Great article by the way. --JJay 19:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Donut or Doughnut?
It seems to me that donut seems more common, at least on signs and billboards where space is expensive. I think we should move it to donut. Any thoughts?Cameron Nedland 03:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Disagree. I don't think we rename articles simply because one spelling is more popular than another perfectly correct spelling. I'm also assuming you're more familiar with local, and mainly American, advertising and media, as opposed to that in other English speaking countries.  What's the worst thing that will happen if some one looks up donut and gets doughnut?  They learn a new spelling.   I was sure this proposal had been made before and was discussed on this talk page, but now I don't see it.  It doesn't appear to have been archived either.  Perhaps I'm crazy. - BalthCat 05:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Chill bro, that's cool with me.Cameron Nedland 21:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have to agree...I consider donut to be in the same vein as lite, kwik, and other casual spellings. I would be dismayed to find donut in a dictionary, except as an "alternate spelling" of the proper doughnut.  I don't mean that donut is wrong, but ... well.  Let's just say it's only rite. --GenkiNeko 04:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Split
The list of doughnut chains is getting too big for the article. Unless we set some kind of standard, like X number of outlets, then it's hard to cull the list... and even then it's going to be hard to verify some chains. So I think that unless a chain is *particularly* notable it should be relegated to this list. That, or the chains should be turfed completely. - BalthCat 14:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Czech version of "Pfannkuchen"
The Czechs have a "doughnut" identical to the German Pfannkuchen, a jam-filled, solid pastry sprinkled with powdered sugar. This is called a "kobliha" and looks exactly like the picture of the "German Berliner".

Nutrition?
I am not the one to write but this article really needs something about nutrition and the transfat debate. Heck I dont know before or after reading this if doughnuts have transfats.

Jambuster
Manitoba uses this name to refer to jelly doughnuts; I think it's something that would be worth inclusion, though I'm not sure where would be best. The regional varities doesn't seem the best place for it...-Wmcduff 02:49, 22 February 2007 (UTC)