Talk:Douglas Bader/Archive 1

Untitled
I added a note of the fact that a pub was named after Douglas Bader in Martlesham Heath, Suffolk. Bluewave 16:24, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Coote
Coote was not the CO of 211 Squadron at any time. He was in fact the OC "W" Wing BAFG. At the date of his death in action, Coote was "sitting in" as Observer in a 211 Squadron aircraft. The CO of 211 Squadron at that time was Squadron Leader AT Irvine, who also perished on the same raid. Numerous published and orginal sources, inlc the Squadron diary, document the events.

Scottish ?
I`ve seen photographs of him in a kilt at several parties, celebrations etc, was he part Scottish ?

Scottish descent - the spelling of his second name gives a clue!

Shooting Down
Lets end this being shot down stuff. He was rammed, leave it be.

Bader was shot down
Although Bader always believed he was rammed he was wrong ; the "JG26 war diary" by Don Caldwell (published by Grub Street 1996) specifically links Bader's loss with a claim for Spitfires by Fw Mayer and Oblt Kosse of II/JG26. (see page 163) Evidence points to Mayer as the responsible pilot.

JG26 claimed 14 Spits for the day, of which 11 are accounted for; Fighter Command claimed 18 kills, though only 2 109's were lost- neither -I hasten to add- was by collision with a Spitfire; Bader's or otherwise. Surely the evidence is thus enough to discount a collision? Harryurz 14:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Dogsbody
I've amended the article regarding the use of 'D-B' as Bader's personal aircraft registration. During the 1940 Big Wing battles he flew a Hurricane marked with the 'LE' notation applied to 242 squadron; Usually 'LE-D'. The use of personal initials did not come into effect until much later in 1941 Harryurz 14:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

True, but also the use of personal initials was also reserved for officers of Wing Commander and above - in 1940 Bader was a Squadron Leader and was not promoted to W/Co until 1941.

Leg Operation
The first time i heard about this was on a documentry on uk history and i couldnt quite believe it, it always sounds like one of those things that happen in war that no body actually thinks happened. with the germans asking for a replacement leg and then once its delivered proceed to get bombed by the bombers.Corustar 01:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)the

Leg Replacement
According to the TV documentary the British were offered the chance to drop Bader a replacement leg off from a plane given a free run, however Churchill turned it down and put the leg on a bomber who was undertaking a bombing raid.

Splash
"On 9 August 1941 Bader was shot down and taken prisoner". Where? The article gives no more detail than "north-west Europe" in the previous paragraph. Lupine Proletariat 11:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Friendly fire
Any stock in the Channel 4 documentary on this evening which suggests he was shot down by friendly fire by the only allied pilot shot down on that day Lionel "Buck" Casson. Only one German was shot down in that raid, and Casson after the war wrote Bader a letter say he shot at a single aircraft going south, when the tail came off, and it too the pilot a while to bail. They found the wreck of the other plane and it didn't have it's tail missing. Khukri ( talk  .  contribs ) 19:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I was going to include a reference to the programme (although someone beat me to it!!); an interesting and recommended documentary, although it still doesn't emphatically resolve the circumstances of Bader's shoot-down- I guess we'll never know. Thanks Harryurz 08:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Bader shoot-down
Look, I hope I'm not messing with something, because I'm not readily familiar with how Wikipedia works, but there's a major error in this page with regard to this whole theory that Bader was shot down by another British pilot. The error needs to be removed by someone who knows more about manipulating these pages that I do. There is reference to the fact that the Hurricane had a similar silhouette to the Bf109...

"...'Buck' only had a few seconds in which he saw Bader and mistook his Hurricane for a BF-109. These 2 planes, in silhouette, look fairly similar. Ironically, Casson was also shot down and made prisoner that same day...."

The fact that the Hurricane and Messerschmitt has similar profiles is true, and was one of the things British fighter pilots were constantly warned about. But in March of 1941 Bader took command of the Tangmere wing -- WHICH FLEW ONLY SPITFIRES -- and the aircraft he was flying the day he was shot down was a Spitfire, not a Hurricane. He left those behind when he left 242(Canadian) Squadron.

Regardless of how his aircraft was downed--collision, enemy fire or friendly fire--it had nothing to do with the similarity in appearance of a Bf109 and a Hurricane.

Bader wasn't flying a Hurricane but a Spitfire.

added 17/10/08 by lex Sorry yes you are right it was a spitfire he was flying but your wrong about the similarity between the hurricane and 109F. The similarity was between the spitfire and the 109F. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.116.15 (talk) 23:28, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Rugby
Does no one know anything about him being a rugby international - surely that should be in there. Petsco 08:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Nope he wasn't, he had a good start at Harlequins, was regular first teamer at outside centre, and talk was they thought he would be playing for England in the not too distant future, but how much of this was 'hyped' up by Bader I don't know. Khukri ( talk  .  contribs ) 13:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Hurricane or spitfire
I thought that Bader was a hurricane pilot and not a spitfire pilot.

Jeff 11:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * He flew both. He started the war on Spitfires and transferred to Hurricanes when he took command of 242 Squadron. He then flew Spitfires again when he was promoted to command the Tangmere wing. Simon9 11:36, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Recent Vandalism
Thanks to everyone that dealt with the recent spate of vandalism on the Douglas Bader page. The author of these attacks seems to have realised that such behaviour is unacceptable and so lets hope there will not be any repetition.

Unhappy childhood ?
Reading between the lines of the Brickhill book, Bader would appear to have had a pretty miseable early life at times. They left him at home almost as soon as he was born and didn't meet him again till he was 2. He barely knew his father, who was away from home from when Bader was 4 and who came back from the war and took 5 years to die of wounds. At that point, aged 12, he moved to a different part of the country.

His life after the crash and RAF discharge can't have been much fun either; he had a dead end job and lived in a bedsit in St John's Wood which he had to climb stairs to reach.

It wouldn't have been the done thing to complain of such things at the time, or even when Brickhill was writing, but you can sure see where he got his toughness from.

He never had children. Were his crash injuries more extensive than is usually disclosed? Tirailleur 16:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Other RAF Amputees
I'm sure there were other amputees in the RAF, Colin Hodgkinson springs to mind, also had both legs amputated due to a flying accident. Am pretty sure that there was at least one other amputee who had lost only one leg flying in the RAF during WW2. A search for Colin Hodgkinson on Wikipedia brings up a musician who is still living. Can anyone else shed some light on this.? Mjroots 13:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

James Maclachlan was another fighter ace, who lost an arm flying Hurricanes over Malta in 1941 and came back to fly night Intruder operations with 1 Squadron over France, while Sydney Carlin lost a leg in the trenches WW1, became an ace with 74 Squadron in 1918 and rejoined the RAF as an air gunner on Defiants 1939-40 and as a Wellington air gunner to the famous W/C Percy Pickard. Both were sadly later killed in action. There may be others but these two ( along with Hodgkinson- who wrote a book and became an MP) are the ones who spring to mind. Harryurz 18:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Colin Hodgkinson wrote a fine book called "Best Foot Forward" that would be a sound reference for a page on him. I'm keen to have a go at a page if anyone can give me a few simple hints on how to use this site. For instance, I'd have no idea to start a page on him, when a page with the same name already exists. I'm only just starting to use this place, and haven't registered yet. Steve


 * There is Spitfire, a book by John Vader (himself a WWII RAAF pilot) that mentions Hodgkinson:
 * In 1942 another legless RAF pilot got back into flying and he too flew Spitfires. This 'tin legs' pilot was Colin Hodgkinson, who feared that if he were shot down and forced to bail out into the sea his artificial legs would fill with water and pull him under before he could inflate his dinghy, so he filled his legs with ping-pong balls, and thought he was being attacked when he heard explosions at high altitude - in fact the ping-pong balls were bursting as a result of the reduced atmospheric pressure.
 * So yes, an article on him would make an interesting read - great candidate for the "Did you know..." section. Steve, if by any chance you're reading this, contact me at my talk page. GregorB (talk) 21:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Temple Grove School
When DB was at Temple Grove, it had not yet moved to Crowborough. It was still in Eastbourne in the building which is now home to the Dental Estimates Board. (The location at E'bne is confirmed by Paul Brickhill in 'Reach for the Sky'.Mikeo1938 21:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC))
 * He went to Temple Grove School in 1917 and at that time the school was still in Eastbourne. The article has been changed from 'Crowborough' (to where it went after Eastbourne) to 'Eastbourne'. Mikeo1938 (talk) 18:32, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

There's a report in The Times:Tuesday, 30 July, 1935; pg. 9; Issue 47129; col A "Temple Grove To Move To Ashdown Forest"Mikeo1938 (talk) 20:36, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Street Names
Would it improve the article to include Google Map citations to each of the road names and pubs?

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Bader+Walk,+Birmingham+B35,+United+Kingdom&sll=54.162434,-3.647461&sspn=9.33486,20.43457&ie=UTF8&cd=2&geocode=0,52.515611,-1.797798&z=16&iwloc=addr&om=1

Signed// PS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.128.251.163 (talk) 02:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Re-write
Recently, an effort was made to re-structure the article. If any editors would like to contribute to a discussion on the various merits of the versions that are in the edit history, please do so. In looking at the editorial changes, I did not see any benefits and consequently revived the earlier edition of the article. IMHO, the new editorial commentary also took on a different tone that was less encyclopaedic. FWIW Bzuk (talk) 19:33, 27 February 2009 (UTC).
 * I think re-structuring and tidying up I did was all pretty good, so I'd hope it can be brought back. In retrospect I did a bit too much in one hit.

On the "tone" issue however, I'm puzzled - does this refer to my "Collision or no?" sub-heading. If so, I'm happy to agree with you, but something like "Controvery over circumstances of downing" seems a bit wooden. Snori (talk)
 * Snori, I do write for publication and would use some of the same devices you have employed in your edits in order to create "writing hooks" but that type of writing does not naturally flow in an encylopaedia where objectivity and lack of polemics is the norm. It is a much more static presentation form that is advocated in Wiki articles; in many ways it is akin to the "standard" print works of an academic work. Rather than "Collision or no?", a typical sub-heading might be: "Downing" or "Capture by the enemy" (note the sentence style employed rather than pull-quote or title format). I hope I wasn't too harsh on my evaluation, but I honestly did not see the advantages to your stylistic interpretations. The smaller, nibble-size movements of sections probably would be feasible if they made sense, but since your arrival on the scene was not preceded by any earlier contributions, I wasn't sure of where you were going with your "take" on a classic story of heroism. FWIW Not having a past history on this article does not preclude you or anyone else from working on the article, so take my commentary as only "jawin'" at this point. Bzuk (talk) 20:21, 27 February 2009 (UTC).

Drafted after losing both legs!?
The introduction as it stands says Bader was conscripted in 1939, after he had already lost both his legs. Is this really true? Surely losing both legs would mean you'd be exempt from conscription?--88.112.152.215 (talk) 21:13, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The intro contradicts the main article text which says basically he used his contacts and talked his way back in. Looks like the intro needs to be changed. MilborneOne (talk) 21:23, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I've changed it from drafted to re-entered the armed forces. I don't want to be any more specific as I don't know the exact circumstances, but the new form of words is compatible with the main text (and that seems more trustworthy than a legless man being drafted).--88.112.152.215 (talk) 19:36, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Was conscrption even introduced as early as 1939? This change looks sensible. Bluewave (talk) 20:11, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Bader wanted to stay in the RAF but until the onset of WW II was deemed unsuited by higher authority. After hostilities began he sought to rejoin and was eventually reinstated. Mark Sublette (talk) 20:16, 5 May 2009 (UTC)Mark SubletteMark Sublette (talk) 20:16, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Steuart vs Stewart
The IP wasn't entirely without justification, all the London Gazettes cited in the article, other than that for his knighthood give Stewart, ODNB however gives Steuart. I'll see if I have time to check the contemporary Air Force Lists later. David Underdown (talk) 08:19, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a copy of Bader's Fight for the Sky - The story of the Spitfire and Hurricane (1973) – inside on the dustcover at the back of the book his name is given as "Steuart". Does that clarify the issue? --Red Su ns et    16:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure. I did look at the Air Force lists earlier, and where his full name is given (I looked at various editions across the 30s, 40s and 50s), rather than just initials, the spelling is always Stewart.  It's possible he varied the spelling later in life - the fact that the one gazette for his knighthood does use Steuart is perhaps a pointer towards that.  It seems to me that there are enough high quality sources to at least mention the discrepancy in a footnote or something (the Gazette isn't infallible, it could never make up its mind about the spelling of Frederic Jon Walker should have a K on the end or not).  David Underdown (talk) 16:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It does seem odd that such sources differ – perhaps he did vary the spelling later in life, but why would he want to do that I wonder?! His birth and death certificates would provide conclusive answers, but an explanatory footnote appears to be the best solution for the time being. --Red Su ns et    18:17, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The official index to births is not very helpfull as it has Bader, Douglas Roberts S., the marriage index has Bader, Douglas R.S. and the death index has Bader, Douglas Robert S. Interestingly on the birth index his middle name is shown as Roberts like his father but appears as Robert in all other records. MilborneOne (talk) 19:09, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The Douglas Bader Foundation has Douglas Robert Steuart Bader on one of its pages, although it is a copy of an article from Channel 4 I would have thought they would know how to spell his name as his wife Lady Bader is president! MilborneOne (talk) 19:21, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Isn't that typical – official records simply state "S"! Well, if his own book, as well as the foundation that is dedicated to him and presided over by his wife use the Steuart form, that indicates this is the correct form. Nevertheless, I still feel a note should be provided to address any confusion. --Red Su ns et    21:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The actuall certificates would should the full name just not the index. A note would not do no harm - probably refer to the Stewart use in London Gazette. MilborneOne (talk) 22:22, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

My grandfather was in a prison of war camp with this man and is not such a hero as he is made out he tried (badly) to escape over ten times right under the noses of guards each time because of this the whole camps rashions got halved. These men where already starving he caused the starvation of so many men in that camp. My grandfather came back weighing 6 stone and he was deffantly not a small man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.207.74.27 (talk) 17:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)