Talk:Douglas Bader/Archive 2

Sports
I deleted this section for number of reasons:

a) There is no justification for having a separate section when his sporting life is discussed in Early Life anyway. And his sporting career was not extensive enough to warrant its own section. b) Unreliable sources. c) No evidence that Bader played cricket for the RAF much less scored 65 according to secondary sources despite being selected. He did play (it seems) in Germany as a POW in 1941-45 (or around that time). d) Sort of ties in with (a) - rugby stuff is right and should be merged with what was there before. Dapi89 (talk) 10:26, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually - fixes to (d) - rugby stuff was partially right. He did not play "a first class game" - it was a friendly match against a local team. Dapi89 (talk) 10:29, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Can users please desist from removing the information about his sports career? He played for Harlequins, and was tipped for England. In other words he was a pretty notable rugby player pre-amputation. No idea about his cricket career, but it does seem fairly well attested, no pun intended.


 * There is more to this man than just his military life.


 * a) His sporting career is extremely notable, he was a formidable athlete. The fact he did not receive national caps later on, is almost certainly due to his accident.
 * b) Some of these sources are used in numerous rugby and cricket articles throughout Wikipedia. Personally I prefer print sources (since they remain available and don't flit around the internet), but these have to do for now.
 * c) I don't know a great deal about cricket, so there's not much to say about this. He does seem to have excelled at it though.
 * d) In many articles it is necessary to put the sports information in a separate section, since the player in question may be better known for something else, e.g. Eamon de Valera and Dick Spring were both notable rugby players (Spring was also a Gaelic footballer), but are much better known for their careers in Irish politics.


 * I am going to post this to the rugby union WP, since this matter has been discussed there in the past.--MacRusgail (talk) 12:42, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The crux of the argument rests on finding and citing verifiable and authoritative sources. Once that is done, either situating the information chronologically or in a separate section is a secondary and minor concern. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:55, 14 April 2011 (UTC).


 * He did not receive national caps - end of story. Postulating this was because of injury is an opinion and impossible to prove.
 * More fool the sports articles. Perhaps they should use printed sources.
 * I do about the modern game, but not that far back so that makes both of us.
 * I strongly disagree. It was not notable and was over before it barely began.
 * Agree with Bzuk. Though it is pretty obvious this non-sporting 'career' never got going.
 * Trusting internet sources that do not reference their own is just not on. Dapi89 (talk) 14:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Espncricinfo quotes his obituary in Wisden Cricketers Almanack, which gives brief details of his single first-class cricket match for the Army against the RAF in 1931 (he scored 65), and also mentions that he was in the running for an England rugby union cap at the time of his accident. . It looks like websites are deprecated for referencing on this article but fortunately I've got a copy of the book so I'll paraphrase and cite. If you aren't familiar with this book, its generally regarded as the leading cricketing reference book and its obituaries are authoratative.--Bcp67 (talk) 17:31, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

It's true enough to say that "being in the running for an England cap" doesn't really mean anything, but I have a feeling that in "Reach for the Sky" Brickhill said that Bader had been selected for an England trial at the time of his accident. It's years since I read the book and I may be wrong, but the timing would fit - Bader's crash happened in December 1931, and England played South Africa at the start of 1932 so an England trial might well have been held around that time. Worth checking, if any of the regular editors of this orarticle have a copy handy.--Bcp67 (talk) 18:55, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not a cricket expert, but if it's down in Wisden, then that's pretty much "gospel", as cricket fans practically treat that book as scripture. I'm going to take this over to the cricket WP.


 * I think it is fairly obvious the injury finished his sporting career. After it, he'd only be able to play wheelchair rugby. I don't think that's even worth arguing about. If you lose both your legs, you're not even going to play for Bagford Vipers 6th XV. -MacRusgail (talk) 15:09, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * A match against the Army can be considered a pro 1st Class game? Even in those days? Dapi89 (talk) 15:59, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Bader did indeed play a single first-class match for the RAF in 1931. His CricketArchive profile is here, along with details of the match against the Army here.  He scored 65 in the RAF first-innings and just the one run in their second-innings.  He played other matches for the RAF in 1931, but the aforementioned was his only notable appearance.  Hope that helps. AssociateAffiliate (talk) 17:36, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Can you tell me where it says "first class" on the website please?
 * Here is indicates he only ever played one game with the RAF and none with anyone else.
 * Thanks. Dapi89 (talk) 18:38, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * It was one single first-class game. If you click the link to the CricketArchive website it shows his "First-Class Career Batting and Fielding (1931)" record, covering that one game. You can also see slightly further up the page a link to "List of matches and detailed statistics for Douglas Bader", and from there "First-Class Matches played by Douglas Bader" - this has the link to that match, played at The Oval in July 1931, Army v Royal Air Force. (There are also two "other" matches, but they are not first-class so clearly not admissable as an indication of cricketing notability). From other indications on CricketArchive the RAF played a number of matches carrying first-class status between 1922 and 1946, of which this one. Granted we wouldn't see such a game as f-c nowadays but it would have been defined as such at the time - it wouldn't have been a professional game, but there were plenty of games back then which were f-c without being professional --Bcp67 (talk) 19:11, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm from the cricket wikiproject answering MacRusgail's call. From the evidence cited immediately above, namely the cricketarchive scorecard reference, and the information on cricinfo, by our notability guidelines Bader would qualify for an article in his own right simply as a cricketer, without all of the other (admittedly highly important) material confirming notability. The match in question was clearly labelled as first-class, therefore first-class is what it is &mdash; a match at the highest domestic level of the game. I'm not going to comment on its location in the article, however it is clear that sport played an important part of his pre-accident life. If a reasonable paragraph can be fashioned out of his rugby and cricket exploits, I see no reason why it shouldn't form a sub-paragraph of the early years part of the article.


 * One thing I would say is that I would take issue with the latter part of this sentence: "A fine cricketer, he was selected for the RAF against the Army at The Oval in July 1931, a match rated as first-class at that time". The match is still rated as first-class. OK, as Bcp67 points out, such as match probably wouldn't be designated as such today, but the status hasn't (and won't be) rescinded. Also, whatever standard he was, and I've no doubt he was good, unfortunately you cannot say he was a "fine" cricketer without a reference. With only 2 meaningful scorecards (the first-class RAF match, and the school match on cricketarchive&mdash;scoring 25 against the Navy doesn't help to make him a "fine" player), there is not enough statistical material to say how good a batsman he was.


 * A better wording to my eyes would be to delete the "continued in military service" bit, and extend the sport paragraph (as: "''He also played cricket for St Edward's, including scoring 59 and taking a wicket against Bromsgrove School; later, whilst in the RAF, he played in a first-class match against the Army at The Oval in 1931, scoring 65 and 1. He also played a non-first-class match against The Royal Navy."


 * I think I would also incorporate the footnote regarding the match in the POW camp at this point, and quote the Lucas reference, assuming the source uses the phrase "jack of all trades". Otherwise simply mentioning that he was an all-rounder would suffice.


 * I hope that helps,
 * &mdash;User:MDCollins (talk) 00:29, 16 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I have removed the word "fine" as it too silly to have. Scoring 65 once and going for (nearly) a duck 2nd Inns. is not my idea of fine. And there is too little evidence that he played in more than a handful of games - not even pro-level. Same with the rugger. Dapi89 (talk) 09:00, 16 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Rugby union wasn't (officially!) professional until the 1990s! It was perfectly possible for the likes of Gavin Hastings and David Campese to spend much of their career as amateurs, despite being the creme de la creme.--MacRusgail (talk) 20:32, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

The level of nonsense on this page regarding Bader the cricketer is staggering. He was a good cricketer selected for the RAF rep team. They held trials and wotnot. If you don't know and on WP Cricket many do, then don't be silly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KestevenBullet (talk • contribs) 21:54, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It is not silly. You are giving an exorbitant amount of time and space to s subject that doesn't deserve it. Particularly with tiny bits and pieces and a few sources. It doesn't justify anything than merging into what is already there. Dapi89 (talk) 15:11, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I think there are enough comments in this discussion to justify the replacement of the deleted material.--MacRusgail (talk) 13:38, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see anyone plugging for that at all. WP:Undue weight should be invoked as well. The man did not even like the game much. Dapi89 (talk) 15:11, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I would agree with MacRusgail. I'm not sure exactly how much has been removed and how much is present in a different place, but I fail to see how two 5-line paragraphs in a level three heading under Early Life can do any harm, nor promote undue weight. It would help to keep the relevant bio material (regarding his mother, education and Cambridge) together chronologically without jumping from 1931 to 1941 and back to 1927. As I said above, if he were just a cricketer and not a war hero, he would still be notable for an article, so one small paragraph here is fine. I don't know whether your "did not even like the game much" comes from the Lucas source - all the article says is that he pursued rugby preferring it to cricket. I'd also be interested to see whether the "jack of all trades" comes from a source? If it were me I would copy-edit it to remove this clumsy wording. If it is original, it should be in inverted commas.
 * Of your 4 "reasons for deletion" above, point a) I'd say there is enough info there, but would place it with the Early Life not elsewhere in the article. b)the cricket sources are reliable. c)evidence proved above. 65 is a good first-class score for an all-rounder. Ok, not many games at this level (that scorecards are available for), but it's there none-the-less. d) if we're tying rugby stuff together, add the cricket and form a paragraph in it's own right. Leave the education about St Edward's but take out the "During his time...older opponents" sentence and use it to form the sporting section. "While at St Edward's..."&mdash;User:MDCollins (talk) 23:04, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

"The man did not even like the game much." - I don't know about you, but if I don't like a game, I don't play it... And that includes cricket, which I don't play. Doesn't make much sense.--MacRusgail (talk) 17:22, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That may be true, but he still did at a notable level. I only asked if that was a verifiable quote from the source provided.&mdash;User:MDCollins (talk) 21:57, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Would it be suitable to mention the other locations named for Bader - for example Bader Way, on the housing estate which used to be RAF Hornchurch? 84.13.63.30 (talk) 19:45, 5 June 2011 (UTC)