Talk:Douglas Youvan/Archive 1

Reference to Phase 2 SBIR on Microbial ID
Line 1055 from grants.nih.gov/grants/funding/fy2001_award.csv, but not referenced in article:

SBIR	Phase II	2001	CALIFORNIA	KAIROS SCIENTIFIC, INC. $389,183 	5	R44GM060209-03	YOUVAN, DOUGLAS C	MULTISPECTRAL BACTERIAL IDENTIFICATION		MYANG@KAIROS-SCIENTIFIC.COM	KAIROS SCIENTIFIC, INC.	10225 BARNES CANYON RD, #A110	SAN DIEGO, CA 92121-2736		N Bridgettttttte (talk) 11:15, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Reference Reconstruction from history of article
litigation [1]

KCAT [2] patent [3]

(hypermodified nucleosides) ribosomal RNA.[4][5]

In a 1984 publication [6]

photosynthetic charge separation [7].

Human Frontier Science Program Award [8].

directed evolution of proteins [9][10],

absorption spectra [11] (FRET) [12].

[13] by over 800 US patents

Bridgettttttte (talk) 12:50, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

4,5,7,9 are wrong Bridgettttttte (talk) 12:55, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

ref 4 is:

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1979 August; 76(8): 3751–3754. Reverse transcriptase pauses at N2-methylguanine during in vitro transcription of Escherichia coli 16S ribosomal RNA. D C Youvan and J E Hearst

- ref 5 is:

Nucleic Acids Res. 1981 April 10; 9(7): 1723–1741.

A sequence from Drosophila melanogaster 18S rRNA bearing the conserved hypermodified nucleoside am psi: analysis by reverse transcription and high-performance liquid chromatography. D C Youvan and J E Hearst

- --- ref 7 is:

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1991 October 15; 88(20): 8885–8889. Direct observation of vibrational coherence in bacterial reaction centers using femtosecond absorption spectroscopy. M H Vos, J C Lambry, S J Robles, D C Youvan, J Breton, and J L Martin ---

- ref 9 is:

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1992 August 15; 89(16): 7811–7815.

An algorithm for protein engineering: simulations of recursive ensemble mutagenesis. A P Arkin and D C Youvan -

THIS MIGHT TAKE ANOTHER PASS TO BE SURE. 13:12, 13 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bridgettttttte (talk • contribs)

Quotes and Excerpts from Youvan
Youvan has written many comments on wikipedia, blogs, formal publications, etc. I wanted to group some of his writings in this section. If he publishes a book, then some of these quotes might be useful in other wikipedia articles or elsewhere. So, to understand whether it is proper for me to create such a section, I thought it would be a good idea to use a here.

Please leave up for about 5 other editors comments. I don't want to build a section here that violates any wikipedia rules.

Bridgettttttte babblepoop 15:33, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Quotes and brief excerpts that illuminate aspects of his life, thought etc. are good, but work them into the main text - that's better than having a separate section of random "stuff he said". Barnabypage (talk) 15:38, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

spouses
from a template with multiple spouses:

Michael Wilding (1952–1957) Mike Todd (1957–1958) Eddie Fisher (1959–1964) Richard Burton (1964–1974; 1975–1976) John Warner (1976–1982) Larry Fortensky (1991–1996) }}
 * spouse = Conrad Hilton Jr. (1950–1951)


 * for Youvan:


 * spouse = Mary M. Yang, Oranan Archariyaporn, Josie Pringle
 * children =
 * religion = Christian

}}


 * above does not work


 * try:

and

Oranan Archariyaporn (2003-2009) Josie Pringle (2010-)
 * spouse = Mary M. Yang (1983-2002)
 * religion = Christian

}}


 * above looks like it might work; will transplant. Bridgettttttte babblepoop 13:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Youvan's Four Postulates
Inanimate matter and energy are the input and output of a living cell.

The information content of DNA is insufficient to animate matter and energy into life.

The information required to bootstrap life into existence was lost after life began.

The information required to bootstrap life into existence came from an NP-hard process.

Bridgettttttte babblepoop 11:45, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Youvan's Inverse
Also known as the "Youvan Inverse", this equation operates on a special class of matrices, defined as Scroll Matrices, D, where w is symbolic of word length and a is the alphabet size. In a discrete mathematics definition, Youvan computes the scroll matrix D using Mathematica syntax:

D = Partition[Flatten[Tuples[Reverse[IdentityMatrix[a]],w]],(a*w)]

Youvan shows that the pseudoinverse of matrix D can be found in rapid computation time by simple scaling of the elements within the transpose of the scroll matrix. The Youvan Inverse, "YI", is equal to:

$$D^{\mathrm{T}}a^{-(w-1)}-\frac{\frac{w-1}{a^w}}{w}$$

Youvan has shown the canonical Singular Value Decomposition (SVD) derived pseudoinverse of matrix D, "PI", scales very poorly in computation time as a and w increase in size. Again, using Mathematica syntax, with equivalence denoted "==" :

YI == PI, for all values of a and w > 0

At the largest values of a and w he could compute, practically,  i.e., (5, 5), Youvan shows that the PI solution requires 59,000 seconds of CPU time (on a 2010-style computer), whereas the YI solution is found in less than 62 milliseconds, approximately one million times faster.

Bridgettttttte babblepoop 11:44, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Draft of section on Books
1. Microbial Energy Transduction: Genetics, Structure, and Function of Membrane Proteins

Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, Book Series:  Current Communications in Molecular Biology

Edited By Douglas C. Youvan and Fevzi Daldal 1986 • 181 pp., illus. Paperback • ISBN 0-87969-194-8

2. Flourescent Proteins and Applications

1986 • 181 pp., illus. Gene Volume 173, Issue 1, 1996 Copyright © 1996 Published by Elsevier Science B.V.

Douglas C. Youvan and James W. Larrick, Editors

3. Pseudocolor in Pure and Applied Mathematics

E-book on youvan.com, 2006 ISBN 978-0-615-43573-2

24.255.133.196 (talk) 23:51, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

4. Questions from a Christian Biophysicist

E-book on youvan.org, 2010 ISBN: 978-0-615-43125-3

Bridgettttttte babblepoop 17:39, 1 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I removed these books from the article. The first two books are co-edited by Youvan, not authored by him. The third book is on a scientific subject, self-published, and has not been reviewed in scientific journals. Google Scholar gives only one citation to this book. The fourth book is also self-published, and I have not found reviews in reliable media on it. -- Crowsnest (talk) 09:53, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

External Links - help
Could someone look at (and fix) the external links I just added to this article as to: 1) Links comply with WP policy, 2) Proper position of this section on the page, and 3) proper formating. I'm the editor that recently vanished and was not planning on doing any more editing. Also, "[14][not in citation given]" should read [14] in the references.  That USPTO page is used to search both patents and patent applications, left and right side of their webpage, respectively.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.255.133.196 (talk) 15:59, 7 January 2011 (UTC) In other biographies, I don't even see a reference for patent number, because it is known to those skilled in the art that ref 14 is how you run the check, and the number changes over time. I feel slightly beaten up on this subject.
 * I will work on this now. -- DQ  (t)   (e)  21:18, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I found this reference for 5 patents  Teapot  george  Talk  21:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅ Think I covered everything you asked, and inserted the second citation. -- DQ  (t)   (e)  22:42, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

missing a reference?
I bookmarked this page about a month ago while looking for a method used on Zeiss microscopes. It's gone. Used in FRET analysis. Can you repost that link somewhere?
 * is meant to be used for help editing Wikipedia. I'm afraid you'll need to go back into the article's and search for it. On a related note, it is always wise to bookmark the exact page you are looking for; if this article were to be deleted, we would have no way of helping you without knowing the exact link. / ƒETCH  COMMS  /  02:42, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * (ec)Ya...what Fetch said.....Your best bet is to look through the article history and find the link. C T J F 8 3  chat 02:44, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Cut in from Speedy deletion page concerning copyright of Youvan's e-book
User talk:OoZeusFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search Deleted - see difference

[edit] Speedy deletion nomination of User:OoZeus/YouvanExcerptIf this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles. A tag has been placed on User:OoZeus/YouvanExcerpt requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be a clear copyright infringement. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words.

If the external website belongs to you, and you want to allow Wikipedia to use the text — which means allowing other people to modify it — then you must verify that externally by one of the processes explained at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. If you are not the owner of the external website but have permission from that owner, see Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission. You might want to look at Wikipedia's policies and guidelines for more details, or ask a question here.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding hang on to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion, or "db", tag; if no such tag exists, then the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate and adding a hang-on tag is unnecessary), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Crowsnest (talk) 09:12, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

If you want to delete Youvan's ebook in my "sandbox" that is ok with me at this time. I thought the copyright release to the United Methodist Church and Wikipedia was sufficient. http://www.youvan.org says: "Public Domain use of this ebook is granted to the United Methodist Church and to Wikipedia". OoZeus (talk) 02:24, 7 February 2011 (UTC)OoZeus (talk) 01:58, 7 February 2011 (UTC) Please be sure you are not looking at some cached copy. It appears near the top of the page. Could you please explain to me why you have targeted Youvan so much? Why are you referenced on www.gewp.com by him? Did you guys have some falling out in a business venture for ocean wave power? OoZeus (talk) 01:06, 7 February 2011 (UTC) Maybe this is the problem, i.e., Youvan's content in "Questions of a Christian Biophysicist": 1.Do you find the following quotes and comment from Darwin, Crick, and Jukes to be troubling?

1."Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin 2."The lectures will be concerned with the impact of biological ideas, both present and future, on our concept of the world. They will not be militantly anti-Christian, but nevertheless will be directed against the sort of ideas at present held by many religious people." - Francis Crick 3.Jukes was one of the founders of the Journal of Molecular Evolution; his subsequent work with molecular evolution focused especially on the origin and evolution of the genetic code. After returning to Berkeley, he also became heavily involved in a number of public scientific controversies, and was a gifted polemicist. In the 1960s, he fought against the introduction of creationism into the California public schools. -Wikipedia 2.Are these Four Postulates consistent with Biblical Creation as per Genesis 1-2?

1.Humans can not observe the origin of life on Earth. 2.The information content of the DNA in a living cell or organism is insufficient to encode life. 3.The information for bootstrapping life into existence is not present in DNA. 4.The information required to bootstrap life into existence came from an NP process.

22.Do you agree with Søren Kierkegaard that Christianity seems to be offensive before it can be understood?

32.Is Hawking the current God of the scientific secularists?

40.Sometime in the future, will valid scientific challenges to Darwinism be considered "hate speech"?

48.Do religious writings make you hate the writer or the religion or God?

73.Can a Prigogine Dissipative Structure store information like a cell stores DNA?

79.Do scientist really believe they become immortal and god-like when they win a Nobel Prize?

87.Do offensive questions written by a Believer keep you from moving closer to Christ?

93.What's' worse: Pushing Dawkins', "The God Delusion", or pushing drugs?

102.Given Romans 13, as of 2010, has God given Wikipedia the authority to establish "consensus truth"?

128.Why are Wikipedia articles usually ranked first on any search of anything?

148.Does the Strong Anthropic Principle explain why you evolved to read this question despite astronomical improbabilities for our existence?

150.10,000 years after Creation and 1,900 years after Christ, why did people begin to believe that Young Earth Creationists were stupid?

160.Will Darwin fall like Haeckel?

180.Why would anyone, including myself, believe that I am a Christian Apologist for the Book of Genesis?

181.When referring to science as authority, why isn't the term "faith in science"?

186.Does the "equals sign" (=) become inexact when moving from pure mathematics to physics?

200.Do you believe science has a sufficient vocabulary to define what is and what is not alive?

208.What possible benefit can there be for betting against God's existence in Pascal's Wager?

209.How could chirality arise from a Big Bang?

212.What is the smallest change in the position of matter that is of any consequence to your life?

213.Are your ancestors bacteria?

218.Not all mathematics is embodied in physical phenomena, and vice-versa, correct?

227.Did you know the consensus truth on Wikipedia is that evolution is fact, not just a theory?

228.Did you know that according to Wikipedia (Godwin's Law) just mentioning Hitler causes you to lose the debate?

250.Is the term "secular fascist" hate speech?

256.Did you know that an attempt to list the Amish as Young Earth Creationists on Wikipedia was quashed?

266.What is the driving force behind the synergism we see in the biosphere?

271.How much clearer could it be that the genetic code could not "evolve" to an optimized design before evolution purportedly even began?

278.If a pattern was discovered in the genetic code, it would not be of Earthly origin - correct?

282.Is it not abundantly clear from the sequencing of various genomes that the information content of DNA is insufficient to reconstitute life?

302.When you write, do you frequently visualize a specific type of reader who may have views entirely different from yours?

312.Why was Thomas Jukes given an unprecedented amount of freedom as an editor and columnist for Nature magazine in the 1970's?

316.Do you believe that God's unique design of a person is complete at the time they become diploid with union of ovum and sperm?

317.How can a partially evolved biochemical cycle, that is nonfunctional during evolution, convey fitness for the host organism to be selected?

322.Why are scientists one of the most difficult groups of people to reach with the Word of God?

329.Could the maturity of a scientist be gauged on how many caveats they have found to the idea that science can solve anything?

331.Is physical infinity the same as mathematical infinity?

344.Are scientists constantly tempted to conclude doctrines of causation when observations supports only correlation?

346.Why would I debate a Darwinist if their best evidence that time moves forward is the Boltzmann H-theorem?

351.Have I convinced you that it is reasonable for an intelligent man to believe in Creation?

356.Has a cosmologist ever shown that the mathematics underlying a physical phenomenon is related to one of Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems?

380.As pre-biotic and Darwinian evolution comprise a nihilistic version of Creation, how can it be taught to children in public school?

398.In Heaven's library, will The First Three Minutes be in the fiction section?

399.Will The God Delusion be on the bookshelves in Hell?

419.How do you reconcile Kierkegaard's leap of faith with Calvin's TULIP?

420.Are Wikipedia editors trying to rewrite history by removing from my biography the fact that I am a signator to Dissent from Darwin?

423.Do you think more like a Turing machine or a Domino computer?

427.Does truth that is determined by a consensus vote of men necessarily imply some injustice?

430.Is the Shannon information content stored by a Prigogine dissipative structure, such as a tornado, just debris and increased entropy?

440.Do you think Darwin and Hawking will be overturned in a matter of years or will it be centuries?

444.Why can God's design of formal logic be reduced to one simple operation: NAND, i.e., "Not And"?

451.Will man ever discover anything more basic than mathematics and logic?

466.Can these four postulates be disproved by science?

1.Humans can not observe the origin of the universe or life on Earth. 2.Without cause, intelligence, god, or a Big Bang, (etc.), the universe and man came into existence about 10,000 years ago in a state similar to the conditions we observe now (as is). 3.This "no intelligence event" was caused by a spontaneous physical event analogous to NP or non-algorithmic mathematics. 4.Optionally, postulate (2) can be biased by a process that can not be proved correct, such as intelligent design, god-driven, or Big Bang-theorized (etc.) mechanisms. [edit] Crowsnest - Please talk to me as person to person. What in this list of questions upsets you so much that you would take so much time to expunge every little thing Youvan has done, anywhere? OoZeus (talk) 01:58, 7 February 2011 (UTC) OoZeus (talk) 02:37, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Contest Deletion of E-Book
Questions from a Christian Biophysicist, ISBN 978-0-615-43125-3 at www.youvan.org has been deleted from the external links for no good reason. How do I contest this deletion? OoZeus (talk) 02:50, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Contact the user who deleted it and ask them to explain why. / ƒETCH COMMS  /  02:53, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think Crowsnest is conflicted through http://web.mit.edu/fluids-modules/www/ where Youvan was an Associate Professor of Chemistry. He should know the consequences of digging up old MIT politics. It is very clear he is conflicted on for-profit ocean wave power money, where Youvan works pro bono. Some phone calls will be made tomorrow. MIT had egg on their face over Youvan, and that is a possible reason Crowsnest seems not to be able to add up Youvan's patent references (into the hundreds) by a simple search of the uspto website for issued and pending patents (see Roger Tsien's bio, it's no big deal to search and add those changing numbers).  Youvan's signature on Discent from Darwin has also been removed. Nasty, unethical, academic back stabbing. OoZeus (talk) 04:13, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Help Insert New Reference, please
Youvan just published, "As Velocity Approaches Light Speed, P and NP Become Equivalent", ISBN 978-0-9849696-0-9, (ASIN: B006SA3KIA), http://www.amazon.com/Velocity-Approaches-Become-Equivalent-ebook/dp/B006SA3KIA/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325533250&sr=1-4

Douglas Youvan is sole author

Please help to insert as an external reference Noncanonical (talk) 19:46, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * We do not quote suppliers - that's advertising. We use the CITE button on the edit toolbar to generate a template for the book. It can sometimes work from a url or ISBN - and today it wouldn't, so fill in manually. Copy the line below (in bold)to where you want the ref. It will then link to a page of all book suppliers.
 *  Ron h jones (Talk) 19:56, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 *  Ron h jones (Talk) 19:56, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I noticed you get this special page when clicking on the reference that I just inserted according to Ron's instructions (above): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780984969609 . That shows links to commercial sources marketed by Yahoo and Google, but not Amazon. Someone needs to fix the Amazon search.  Otherwise, I guess the ISBN gets connected to other databases as they refresh from Browker. I'll check back in about a week and see if the ISBN has propogated.  Meanwhile, the book is on Amazon in Kindle format for $0.99.  That beats PNAS!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noncanonical (talk • contribs) 18:05, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Redirect Youvan's other e-book to our Special Page lookup
Using the format Ron gave me above:

 

Noncanonical (talk) 18:28, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Stalking
Noncanonical (talk) 21:01, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Within minutes of adding a reference to this article, Crowsnest has reverted my edit. I do not understand. However, I do know that on Commons, Crowsnest tried to remove one of Youvan's figures. Another editor countered his points and accused him of simply carrying a long running debate into another matter. Crowsnest has also removed Youvan's Scroll Matrix equation from this article. We, at the Youvan Foundation, believe Crowsnest is conflicted and possibly violating a signed settlement agreement. None of this is good for Wikipedia or our readers in the public. Help me Noncanonical (talk) 18:40, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Please help me find an Admin, I am new to this. Noncanonical (talk) 18:40, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

From Crowsnest's edit tag, without discussion here: Lacking secondary reliable sources see WP:PSTS. (TW)) Noncanonical (talk) 18:56, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Secondary sources are second-hand accounts, generally at least one step removed from an event. They rely on primary sources for their material, making analytic or evaluative claims about them.[5] For example, a review article that analyzes research papers in a field is a secondary source for the research.[6] Whether a source is primary or secondary depends on context. A book by a military historian about the Second World War might be a secondary source about the war, but if it includes details of the author's own war experiences, it would be a primary source about those experiences. A book review too can be an opinion, summary or scholarly review.[7][8] Policy: Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from secondary sources. Articles may make analytic or evaluative claims only if these have been published by a reliable secondary source. Noncanonical (talk) 18:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Youvan has begun a discussion on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/forum/meet%20our%20authors/ref=cm_cd_fp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2UYC1FC06SU8S&cdThread=TxFNJUBIF1VGG2 Noncanonical (talk) 19:34, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I have a compromise solution: Remove the new text and insert an external link. Noncanonical (talk) 19:45, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, That was undone within minutes with no comment here: "Undid revision 469382318 by Noncanonical (talk)remove commercial link to book". Let me look through how ISBN can go through a lookup on our Special Page for ISBN to Google and Yahoo, but not Amazon. If you look at my edit history, that is exactly what I was doing before, and I would like to make some progress. Noncanonical (talk) 20:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The issue is that a work by the subject of the article is a primary source, and the statement you attempted to add should really be attributed to a secondary source. Noting that the subject authored a work, and that the contents of the work dealt with a particular area of inquiry, that's one thing - but here you discuss the research published in the work and assume its validity, and we don't get to make that leap as per WP:OR. An external link, particularly one that goes to amazon.com, is absolutely inappropriate - amazon.com is not an unbiased actor in these matters, as they care less about the validity of the material than whether they can sell you a copy (and for how much). A non-commercial link may be more appropriate, but it would serve only to confirm that the work exists; the ISBN does that equally well, and can be utilized without going through a commercial site. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 20:24, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Wait a tic, back up - you're saying that another editor is subject to a legal settlement agreement of some sort, and that their edits here violate that agreement? I'm amending your helpme tag to an adminhelp tag, in order to get more admins looking at this - I won't be around much more today, and this shouldn't be left hanging. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 20:29, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Hostility Directed at a Biophysicist Who Happens to be Christian
Jimbo wants diversity, and we get this:

Please Help

I'd like out of this mess with Douglas Youvan and Crowsnest. If you feel that it is OK, please list Youvan's new book as an external link in his biography. The problem is how to use the ISBN number. There is a special page that does the lookup here on Wikipedia. Can you list his book in a manner that the ISBN will be picked up? The book was published only 2 days ago. I believe the ISBN was purchased from Browker and I do not know how it distributes through out the web. Wikipedia's look up page does list commercial Google and Yahoo markets, but not Amazon. Can you reply yes or no to me on my talk page, please? Noncanonical (talk) 20:26, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Here is the ISBN lookup page with "Yahoo Shopping" and "Google Market Place": http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ABookSources&isbn=9780984969609#General_search_engines . Noncanonical (talk) 20:31, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * You have a clear conflict of interest and you want to add a commercial link to a just published e-book by Youvan? I think you need to seriously review what Wikipedia is not here to market and promote your products. RegardsTheroadislong (talk) 20:32, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * That was really a thoughtless comment you made on my talk page. The book sells for $0.99 and the royality is $0.15.  We are nonprofit and do not take salaries. Don't you want people to find books they see as references?  They do cost money.  Look directly above.  Yahoo and Google shopping!  Please apologize. Noncanonical (talk) 20:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Noncanonical (talk) 20:45, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ABookSources&isbn=9780984969609#General_search_engines is a Special Page with no Discussion and no User edits. Noncanonical (talk) 20:48, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not at all clear what you are getting at here? I am certainly not being hostile, I merely removed a commercial link to an e-book, end of story.Theroadislong (talk) 20:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)