Talk:Dover Castle/Archive 1

Untitled
Key to England quote originally by Matthew Paris, am trying to find the original reference. See.

According to Robert Liddiard in "Castles in Context: Power, Symbolism and Landscape, 1066 to 1500" this phrase was NOT invented by Matthew Paris but by Castellan Hubert de Burgh in 1216, with Liddiard acknowledging the mistake. --Letstalk 16:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Broken Page Link
I have no idea what to do so I'll tell you here. Under Tudor, "they were improved by Henry VIII, who made a personal visit, and added to with the Moat Bulwark." Moat Bulwark as a page does not seem to exist anymore on Wikipedia even though I can click it. 71.230.202.3 23:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Time Splitters
Wasn't Dover castle level 2 in Time Splitters 3? Should this be mentioned? Talk User:Fissionfox 11:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC) no definatley not

Project Assessment
A beautiful start, but needs expansion, particularly in the introduction. One sentence which fails to explain when it was originally built, by whom, when (and under whom) it reached its climax, and what important events or battles took place there, simply will not cut it. LordAmeth 23:18, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Maurice the Engineer
I'm not good at editing wiki pages, however I found an independant reference to this person. Seeing as a citation is needed, I'm submitting the site I found it on for this purpose: http://www.history-tourist.com/V2//dover-castle_S0080.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.29.40.84 (talk) 23:24, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Roman section begins abruptly
It sounds like it was copied and pasted from another source without context. Note the way the first sentence is referencing something that simply doesn't exist.

128.170.63.33 (talk) 23:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Merge from Constable's gate dover
A recently created article, Constable's gate dover, contains relevant material to Dover Castle, but doesn't appear sufficiently notable on its own. It seems more appropriate to merge/incorporate that article. Thoughts? Meph talk 13:16, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree - the Constable's Gate isn't a particular notable item on its own, and the separate article doesn't add much.Hchc2009 (talk) 15:18, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

The proposed merger makes sense to me Greenmaven (talk) 09:19, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Constable's Gate was deleted as a copyvio of http://www.theheritagetrail.co.uk/castles/dover%20castle.htm Dave.Dunford (talk) 11:29, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

DUMPY Level
I propose a discussion on the sentence "DUMPY is an acronym for Deep Underground Military Position Yellow." contained in paragraph 4 under section "The secret wartime tunnels". While DUMPY seems to be generally accepted as an acronym for Deep Underground Military Position Yellow and this theory is further supported by the use of full capitalisation in (signage). I have failed to find any real evidence, such as a military document which proves this name to be an acronym.

It is a likely possibility that the level has been named quite literally after the 'Dumpy Level' a levelling device which would most certainly would have been used in the construction of these tunnels. There is also little relevance to the colour or use of the word Yellow. The use of the word perhaps has some relevance to the white chalk in which the tunnels are constructed, but would surely have a military meaning, perhaps code used as a location identifier. Surely if it is used as a location ID there would be other 'DUMP' tunnel or bunker systems known? An interesting discussion: http://www.kenthistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4541.0 Lcaandrews (talk) 13:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Copyright

 * As explanations go, the Dumpy level is quite plausible. I opened the website used as a reference to find that much of the text is reproduced word-for-word at http://www.dovertowncouncil.gov.uk/article/dover_castle.aspx


 * There are large chunks of text duplicated between the council website and Wikipedia . Archive.org doesn't have a copy of the webpage so I can't see which came first, although parts of ours date back to 2003 and the council website asserts copyright from 2007. The fact that material seems to have been added to Wikipedia by multiple editors  prompts me to believe that it is the council website which copied Wikipedia. As well as being something to keep an eye out for, this does mean that we are effectively referencing Wikipedia so I have removed the explanation of what DUMPY means pending more information. Nev1 (talk) 19:09, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

The castle and schools
I removed the following statement from the article because it lacked a source:

"The wartime tunnels are studied in many schools as they are such a significant aspect of Britain's history."

It might be interesting to expand on how the history of the castle (both medieval and in WWII) is taught in schools if a reliable source can be found discussing it. I'm not sure where to look, but I'm leaving this here in case it's useful in the future. Nev1 (talk) 18:43, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Henry II to early modern times
"During the English Civil War it was held for the king but then taken by a Parliamentarian trick without a shot being fired (hence it avoided being ravaged and survives far better than most castles) in 1642."

This clearly needs some sort of expansion/explanation. da nn o _ u k 21:39, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

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Largest in England??
This article claims that Dover is the largest in England. By what measure? Having just been to Arundel castle, which claims to be the second largest after Windsor, I'd like to establish the actual number of acres occupied by Dover in comparison to Windsor (and Arundel/ other castles) just to be sure.

If you google "Largest castle in England" you get Windsor, and on a list of largest castles in the world, Windsor is the first British castle to appear at number 5. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.185.151.109 (talk) 21:31, 29 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Windsor Castle hasn't been a serious fortification in centuries. It is an old castle with a palace built on to it. On the other hand there has been military fortification at Dover pretty much continuously from the iron age until within living memory. Dover castle was expanded many, many times. The keep and bailey, what many people think of as a castle, are fairly large but not excessively so. If you just look at those bits sure Windsor and others will be larger, but the fortifications at Dover are so much more than just those. The curtain wall is hundreds of metres long and encompasses a huge area. Beyond that wall are a huge series of extensive ramparts. Then there are multiple barbicans, barracks, bastions, batteries, bulwarks, casemates, gun emplacements and magazines etc within, with a multi level honeycomb of more out of sight below the surface. To put it into perspective just how extensive these fortifications became by 1914 Dover had a garrison of around 16,000 men. It only stopped being used militarily in the late 1950's if memory serves.


 * Have a look at this site map from English Heritage to get an idea of the scale of the site.


 * As ever with questions like what is the largest x it often comes down to the definition of x as to what the answer is. When you look at the size of the actual military emplacement at a castle site Dover clearly stands alone. If you only want to count the bits that look like a medieval castle not so much.


 * I would rework the lead paragraph to a statement of fact rather than a contestable claim of what is largest. Something along the lines of it being a large medieval castle that was extensively expanded over many centuries. If I get bored at the weekend I might have a pop at it. LiamE (talk) 00:21, 6 August 2021 (UTC)