Talk:Doves (band)

Requested move
Doves → Doves (band) — Doves refers to the bird, high risk of disambiguation —E-Kartoffel (talk) 19:13, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.



Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

Split into sections; also 'Sub Sub' and 'Doves' definitions
I've given the main paragraph a title, since the Contents box was hiding way down the bottom before. I've also moved things not directly relevant to their "History" to a "Trivia" section, and separated Sub Sub's brief history from Doves's, so there's a header that links to the main Sub Sub page.

Things that may need changing: above the contents box, should these go in their own sections? If so we'd then just have "Doves are an English rock band from Manchester, England" at the top of the page. I'm not sure which way would look tidiest. So were Sub Sub active 92-98? That's 3 more years after the fire. I know the Delta Tapes were leaning towards Doves-style material, an early version of Firesuite is on it for example, but then surely it's not true to say the fire marked the end of Sub Sub? It looks weird to have 1996 and 1997 as "gap years" but I don't know what the solution is there. Any input is appreciated Jimbow25 23:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * There are still 2 paragraphs:
 * "The band is known for its large, epic sound..."
 * "The three members of Doves are"
 * Martin Rebelski is currently mentioned under trivia, he may be worth mentioning in the sidebox or in the paragraph "The three members of Doves are...", instead.
 * I've got Sub Sub down as 92-95 and Doves down from 98-present. There doesn't seem to be a definite set of dates for this, because:
 * Sub Sub's start date: The article says they met when they were 15: do we have any idea which year this was? Or when the first Sub Sub activity was?
 * The fire, apparently in 1995, was supposed to have signalled the end of Sub Sub.
 * Doves's first release was in 1998.
 * The Sub Sub page says their last release was also in 1998.

Picture?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure the picture on this article is of the snooker player John Higgins?

Ok, it's changed now, don't know what was wrong with my Wikipedia last night.

M62
"According to this interview, M62 Song, from The Last Broadcast, was recorded under a flyover of the M62 motorway (the album liner notes place the flyover at Northenden near Manchester)."

I don't have a copy of the album liner to hand, but the M62 doesn't go anywhere near Northenden (The M60 does, which used to be the M63 but was renamed to M60 in 1999, 3 years before The Last Broadcast was released). The M62 goes around the north of Manchester, Northenden is in South Manchester. Is this information from the album liner correct? If so, maybe a comment should be added to imply that the band got it wrong?!


 * They did get it wrong - it is actually the M60 the song was recorded under. http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,1857188,00.html Snecklifter 11:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Doves logo
Somebody recently removed the Doves logo from the site and I need this for the MySpace. Please upload again! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jaysmellsbad (talk • contribs) 16:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC).


 * This is possibly because it is a copyrighted image. Please consider this when uploading material to this or any other site.Snecklifter 11:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Doves.jpg
Image:Doves.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 01:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Recording of new album
I thought it might be fun to try and figure out where the new album is being recorded based on the clues we have. If I find a serious potential location I might even be up for a bit of a stake out to get photos. Just for a laugh of course and it would all go on Wikipedia.

They've said that they're recording the new album in a small country village in the Peak District. Next to a llama farm apparently and there can't be too many of them. The working title of one of their songs is also 'Disco Eyam' and Eyam is a village in the Peak District. However I'm from Eyam and I'm not aware of any llama farm, but I think it's more likely that the farm is just a normal farm that happens to have llama's as well as other animals. Considering the sizes of some of the farms round there, it's difficult to tell what types of animals each one has. People don't breed llamas for the sake of it though and I know theres a llama trekking (amongst other things) business but I'm still trying to figure out where it is. I'm led to believe its run by one Hope Valley Travel Group although I'm not definite and where they are located I can't figure out. The Hope Valley is unsurprisingly a valley in the Peak District (with the village of Hope in the middle) but due to the lack of city's in the Peak District we use Hope Valley in place of a city name in our addresses. Eyam is about 15 minutes drive from the Hope Valley but we still put Hope Valley as our area in our address as do many other villages but I'm not sure how large or where the Hope Valley categorisation extends.--Santahul 12:43, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Origin
allmusic says the band was formed in Manchester. They recorded and played their gigs in Manchester, and are closely identified with the Manchester music scene. Wouldn't it make more sense to put Manchester as the band's origin? Most bands I've come across on Wikipedia have the larger city whose scene they are associated with as their origin rather than the insignificant suburb they were born in, like MC5. None of the resources listed on this page suggest they consider themselves a Wilmslow band rather than a Manchester band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agonotheta (talk • contribs) 05:39, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Q Magazine, The Manchester Evening News and Wilmslow Express all refer to the band being formed in Wilmslow. Most towns and cities don't have recording studios, so bands have to go to big cities to record albums. One editor says the management state that they formed in Manchester yet he or she hasn't so far provided a reference proving so. Also Wilmslow isn't an insignificant suburb, it's an affluent town in it's own right that isn't even in Greater Manchester. Epm-84 (talk) 15:54, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I am their Manager and have been since 1991, I don't need to provide references. Q, M.E.N. and the Wilmslow Express (!) will have taken the Wilmslow formation statement from the incorrect info here on Wikipedia. That's generally what journalists do. Please don't alter the page again. (Central 1179 (talk) 09:02, 8 April 2009 (UTC))

If you are their manager then you should easily be able to put on your company's website references to where the band orginated. Anyone can claim to be their manager, I've previously encountered someone on Wikipedia who claimed to be North West Tonight presenter Gordon Burns, but turned out to be a phony who's only aim was to vandalise Wikipedia pages. Q magazine's interview was before Doves had a Wikipedia article, so can you explain that? I also don't see why their manager would remove a reference to where they used to pratice just because it wasn't in Manchester! And if you are the manager since 1991 can you also explain why you weren't bothered about the page saying they were from 'Wilmslow' until fairly recently?

Wikipedia advise that anything that is disputed and isn't referenced is either referenced or has fact tags added. Epm-84 (talk) 10:05, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Also remember that the requirement for inclusion is verifiability not truth.Lame Name (talk) 10:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

We weren't too bothered about this page until recenly because we were recording the new album. Lately we've been doing a ton of press, most of whom refer to Wikipedia before they interview the band or use it as a source to pad out their article. The band are sick of seeing themselves referred to as the Wilmslow 3 piece. It's true that they went to school there, but the roots of both Sub Sub and Doves originate from when they were living in and around South Manchester and going out to clubs in the City centre. We've just done a piece for Q magazine which will be out in the next issue where they go back to Wilmslow with old school friend John Harris (the well known writer) and they follow the story through to today so you can use that as your published source if you want. Verifiability not the truth is Wikipedia's main weakness as most published articles are inaccurate in some degree (note your trusted Wilmslow Express' inability to spell Jimi's name correctly for example) You'll also notice I've changed factual things like the year that the fire destroyed the studio from 1995 to 1996, I should know I was there, talking about rare soul 45's with the firemen. I appreciate you're just trying to tell the truth as you know it at the end of the day though. Yours, Gordon Burns. (Central 1179 (talk) 23:01, 8 April 2009 (UTC))

But didn't they write the song 'Black and White Town' about social divide in Wilmslow? Social divide in Cheshire isn't something you know properly about unless you develop strong connections with Cheshire as former MP Martin Bell found out Epm-84 (talk) 16:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

No, B&W Town wasn't written about the 'social divide' in Wilmslow. It's a very affluent place, there's a few shady bits but any small town has those areas. The most grief people have there is where to park the Beemer. You seem to know a bit about it, do you live nearby or are you taking your info from the press/web?? (80.2.160.209 (talk) 10:34, 16 April 2009 (UTC))

So the following quote, from the Manchester Evening News, is completly made up then?

''"This week Jimi talked about humble beginnings playing at Wilmslow Leisure Centre, The Assembly Rooms, Alderley Edge and a youth club in Handforth.

He said experiences of Wilmslow were behind the lyrics of their latest hit.

"Wilmslow is a town full of contradictions. On the one hand you've got the middle class nouveau rich, footballer, stockbroker, moneyed villain. But also a lot of less moneyed people.

"I had friends from both sides and we all hated it. The hypocrisy of the place. I don't know, is it any different from anywhere in small-town England?

"As a kid I think it's normal to be frustrated and resent where you're from. That's what the song Black and White Town is about. Its something to kick against."

The trio met at Wilmslow High School after Harefield, Thorngrove and Dean Row schools merged to form the new school."'' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Epm-84 (talk • contribs) 11:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Read it again, he's saying it's about kicking against any small town where kids are brought up, i.e. not specifically Wilmslow.

Andy wrote the words for this song, I asked him if it was written about Wilmslow. He said no. Obviously I can't verify this with some innaccurate press clipping, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

Why is this such an obsession for you anyway? do yourself a favour turn your computer off and go for a walk. (Central 1179 (talk) 11:03, 21 April 2009 (UTC))

There's no need to be rude, every edit I've made is in line with Wikipedia guidelines. What's stated in that press clipping about the song 'Black & White town' had been said in various newspapers, magazines & radio stations when the song came out. The only time I've EVER heard anything contradicting that is in what you've posted on here.

The fact that you claim to be their manager gives you no rights to make their Wikipedia article exactly as you please, but gives you every right to point users to reliable source information contained on Doves website or your management website. If that material doesn't already exist then as manager you can make it exist.

Officially where a band formed is not necessairly recorded as where the members originate from. Snow Patrol formed in Dundee yet all the members are Northern Irish. The Charaltans formed in Northwich yet the members are from the Black Country and one from Salford, who was living in Northwich when the band formed. As Doves wouldn't have met if it wasn't for Wilmslow High School and formed a band while at Wilmslow High School, Manchester wouldn't be seen as where they formed, expect if you're a die hard Macunian or from London and don't have any idea where Wilmslow is.Epm-84 (talk) 10:09, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree it seems very strange that their 'manager' seems to hate any reference to Wilmslow and likes any reference to Manchester when you'd expect it to be the other way around as a lot of people will say Doves are from Manchester because they haven't heard of Wilmslow. With 'Embrace' it's the other way around, they formed in Brighouse but everyone says they are from Huddersfield. I wouldn't be surprised if the contributor in question is someone who eats and sleeps all things Manchester rather than their real manager. 81.136.144.179 (talk) 12:05, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Requested move 2
As the first requested move (above) didn't go anywhere, I'm going to try again.

Doves → Doves (band) &mdash; Per Cats/Cat/Cats (musical), Cars/Car/Cars (film), and (not trying to be vulgar here) Faggots/Faggot/Faggots (novel) (which recently underwent a requested move in favour of plural/singular redirect here). WP:Naming conventions (plurals) seems to support the singular/plural redirecting too. The overall idea is that most people typing in "doves" will be looking for "dove". Additionally, "doves" may refer to Doves (Gibraltar). As with Cars and Cats, the hatnote at Dove will lead them to disambiguation, which lists both Doves uses. Thoughts? -M.Nelson (talk) 00:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and moved the page. The earlier request should have worked, because our general rule is to make obvious-seeming moves when there's no opposition. This one seems uncontroversial enough. If someone wants to claim that most links and searches for "Doves" are intended for the band, but I don't see why we would default to that option. If there are any questions about this move, please don't hesitate to let me know. -GTBacchus(talk) 02:14, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way... there are currently 211 links to Doves, some of which are links intended for the band, and some of which aren't. Those ought to be sorted out. I can work on it, but there's no guarantee I'll have them all done by any particular time. Just a heads-up. -GTBacchus(talk) 02:53, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I responded on your talk page; I can fix a significant portion within the next 24 hours. -M.Nelson (talk) 03:03, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I ended up fixing them all because I wasn't tired. I'm surprised to find that we don't seem to have any discussion of doves as symbols of peace. At least I haven't found it. The article on dove does not contain the word "peace", and vice versa. -GTBacchus(talk) 08:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/6DaMNbmDo?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bpi.co.uk%2Fcertifiedawards%2Fsearch.aspx to http://www.bpi.co.uk/certifiedawards/search.aspx
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20120722213253/http://www.chartstats.com/artistinfo.php?id=501 to http://www.chartstats.com/artistinfo.php?id=501
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100413083824/http://www.doves.net:80/gigs.php?y=2010 to http://www.doves.net/gigs.php?y=2010
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Are Doves on Hiatus?
The BBC News story refers specifically to touring and live dates. It makes no mention of the band being on a hiatus so does it make sense to have changed the tense of the first 2 sentences and have extended the cancellation of live dates to a 'hiatus'? Eurmal (talk) 13:01, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Correct. I've changed the article back. U-Mos (talk) 18:02, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Merge proposal
Discussion following reversion of my WP:BOLD merge of Black Rivers into this article. Black Rivers gives a clear WP:MERGEREASON of short text, with no realistic prospect of expansion eight years after the band ceased activity. U-Mos (talk) 18:33, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose as de-redirecter. The article is more than two sentences as is (as suggested by MERGEREASON), and there is more that could be added to it (more information on the reception and style of the album, and its tracklist, all could be added). The group released a full-length as Black Rivers which received independent reviews, and, as I've just added, it charted on the UK Albums Chart. Sub Sub, Doves, and Black Rivers all functionally meet WP:MUSIC on their own, and despite sharing so many members, merit separate articles on these phases of activity. Chubbles (talk) 00:38, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Closing, with no merge, given that the uncontested objection, no support and stale discussion. Klbrain (talk) 16:22, 26 June 2024 (UTC)