Talk:Dragon (Dragonriders of Pern)

Dragons, firelizards and the common side-blotched lizard
Has anyone else noticed the correlation between the five morphs of dragons and firelizards (gold and green females; bronze, brown and blue males) and those of the common side-blotched lizard (orange- and yellow-throated females; orange-, blue- and yellow-throated males) with their different sizes, colors, temperaments and mating strategies? Did McCaffrey consciously model her dragons and firelizards on multi-gendered Earth lizards, or is it coincidence?
 * Actually, she based them off of horses. Strange, I know. But she did. Disinclination 01:43, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * She had admitted it as such, I think in a writer's workshop interview. 69.232.200.95 (talk) 01:57, 1 February 2011 (UTC)]]--

Only one queen egg per clutch?
That's incorrect. There are several mentions, especially after the Oldtimers are brought forward, of queen dragons having clutches with more than one gold egg.

I don't recall any mention of queens being incapable of breathing fire, only that like the greens, chewing firestone makes them sterile. I'd have to dig out the books for the exact reference, but it involves a current generation person being astonished that the Oldtimers fly queens against thread and that chewing firestone makes them sterile. That leads to the explanation of the queen riders using flamethrowers as low flying "sweepers" to flame any Thread missed by the others above, and to land and flame any Thread that hits the ground.


 * In Dragonsdawn (about the 1st Pass), the queens chew firestone, but are unable to get any flame; they do remain fertile, however. Could be that, over the years, "Queens shouldn't chew firestone because it won't work" morphed into "Queens shouldn't chew firestone because it makes them sterile", and no one cared to test the theory and ruin their queen's fertility.  (Or, in real life, McCaffrey may have realized that the original queen riders would have of course tried firestone, and the entire species would have been wiped out if it had actually worked.)  --ScottAlanHill 19:59, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Not quite. What happened in Dragonsdawn is that they tried chewing firestone but couldn't bring themselves to do it, because of a hang-up ingrained in their genetic makeup to prevent them from sterilizing themselves. Noneofyourbusiness 19:24, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * -nods- The queens basically 'threw up' the chewed firestone. Disinclination 00:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * However, the greens were genetically made sterile DUE to Kitti Ping, as discovered in.. Dragonsdawn? Or CoP? I can't remember, but its one of those two books. Disinclination 01:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Merger with Weyr
Disagree. In my view these are separate topics. The article on Pernese dragons should deal with the beasts' history, physiology, and habits, while the article on Weyrs should treat the physical, social, and political structure of this pillar of Pernese society. As of this writing, this is largely the case. Furthermore, the list of Weyrs and their founding in the Weyr article fits there, but would be collatteral in this article. --Apascover 18:56, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

gender shortcuts
I've noticed that the dragon genders seem to follow an easy to understand shortcut

Males

Bronze

Brown

Blue

White

Females

Gold

Green

White should not be here. A white Pernese dragon is a mutation and a lethal mutation, at that, as without outside aid in breaking the shell, the hatchling will be unable to break the shell and will die. And a white would probably assume the gender of the rider and be sexually neuter. Ruth is certainly neuter and appears to be male but that could be because his rider is. This section is about the standard colors. White is not a standard color and therefore White is, in my opinion, inappropriate here.Carloak (talk) 03:36, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

it seems like something that should go in there but i want sure where to put it or how to phrase it anyone else want to give it a try? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Joelaarhus (talk • contribs) 05:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Greens in the later passes actually bond more frequently to men, than females. It should be stated in the article that females can bond to greens and blues, and males bond to every one of the dragons except for gold. It also depends upon a rider's sexuality. Disinclination 04:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I read that Anne McCaffrey used this formula, boys: bronze, brown, blue; girls: gold, green, for the dragons. The explanation of why greens impressed to males was that with all the plagues, women tended to want to have children to propagate the species rather than stand as candidates. Also, the choice of rider does depend on the human's sexuality, however, a boy may not realize he's that way until after a green chooses him and rises to mate for the first time. Anne McCaffrey has stated in an interview that a girl could possibly impress a blue, but it wouldn't happen in her Pern, which I take to mean that she would permit it in fan-fiction, but it wouldn't occur in Canon work by her or her son. Also Anne McCaffrey, in an interview, stated her reason for making most green riders male. "I wanted to give homos a place in my society." I find that slightly offensive, but that's what she said.Carloak (talk) 03:51, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Sexuality
Okay, totally scrap what I said up there about sexuality. After reading this thread 'How Gay are Gays outside of the Weyr?', which is from the official Anne McCaffery forum, along with several other articles, it is made known that a dragon does not know who his or her rider will be outside of the egg. So, how can a dragon impress a heterosexual woman, or a homosexual man, if they don't know them before the hatching? It probably all depends on the minds' of the Candidates, somewhat, I believe, to be their personality (something about phermones is mentioned, but then again, Ms. McCaffery I believe does not have a degree in biology). When females were standing less and less on the Sands for greens, the green dragons turned to effeminate boys. Why? Because they were effeminate. Now, Mr. Male Green Rider may not be gay, but he could be somewhat girlish. Same goes with females impressing blues or browns; Could they be somewhat butch or manly? Or perhaps have somewhat weyrsecond qualities (another leadership, but not enough for gold or bronze rank)?

And why do golds and bronzes have to strictly Impress heterosexual females and males? When Impression occurs, a dragon will know yes, but what about before that? Naturally, it must fall to the qualities that a dragon sees in a Candidate.

The reason I posted that link, was simply because if you look through the articles, and search the articles as well (Very long discussion about Wirenth and Prideth's origins, along with Moreta's and Leri's), they are extremely well thought out, with plenty of quotes. Just something to look through, if you have the time.

I believe that the sections that mention sexuality should be rewritten, at least to reflect this, simply because, in reality (or as much as Pern can be realistic), there can be no definitives with our limited resources on what Pern is. I mean, bronzeriders MUST have gay sex (or at least arrange themselves so their rider is with a female at the time, but that might not be the case), especially before Lessa's ride, simply because there was only one gold dragon at the time ... with an incompetant, obese rider. In fact, it was mentioned a few times, in DF or in MHoP, that Nemorth often gorged before her flights, probably leaving alot of pissed off bronzes.

Just something to think about, and probably to change. These articles really need to be edited and looked over.

EDIT: Here are some links also dealing with the subject: Impressing Browns, Blues, and Bronzes and Women I will continue to add later on, if I find any others. Disinclination 08:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It doesn't really matter *why* the dragons make the choices they do. For canon Pern, these are the rules, like it or not, agree with Anne's reasoning or not. So, we have Canon Rules, where Anne is correct because it hs her world. Then we have fandom, where fans can change the rules around to what they think are right and "correct" what they think is wrong on Pern. Because no matter how many Pern books Anne writes (supposedly she will not write any more books on her own), we will never see a woman ride brown or blue (she agrees it may be possible but it will never happen in *her* -canon- Pern). So, these considerations can be discussed in the "fandom considerations" portion of the article, but not the discussion of how *canon* Pern works. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.138.64.161 (talk) 03:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC).


 * Sadly, however, her lack of knowledge and her ability to twist truths into lies is what makes her reasoning faulty. Including her coliqually known Tent peg theory and "world renowned" scientists. Disinclination 06:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Why is this article so obsessed with the sexuality of dragon riders in the first place? As it is written now, anyone new to Pern reading this article might get the impression that the whole series is erotic fiction. Why don't we make "sexuality of Pern dragonriders" it's own article and move the refrences from this article there?JBPostma (talk) 20:51, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

One reason it is obsessed with the sexuality of the rider is because there is no difference between regular sexual preference and flight sex. Some may disagree, but Anne McCaffrey, herself, has stated there is no difference. As she is the author of the books, her word is law concerning the the books.Carloak (talk) 05:10, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I removed *Pern Wiki due to it going to a parking site and not a valid site anymore. Mementh (talk) 07:36, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

As for how a dragon would know about a candidate's sexuality, from what I remember, that was explained by pheromones. Of course, the hatchling doesn't know what pheromones are. They simply are attracted to those who have the same sexuality as themselves. A homosexual male or a male with homosexual proclivities will emit pheromones that would identify him, to a hatchling, as wanting to be like a woman.Carloak (talk) 16:32, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Size
I keep seeing dragon sizes referred to in meters. I have heard that one of the auxiliary books referred to sizes in meters, but this doesn't seem right.

According to the books and this article, the first dragons were slightly larger than horses. Ruth is slightly larger than the first generation dragons. It is extrapolated that Ruth may be eighteen meters in length. A horse is nowhere near eighteen meters in length. Maybe three or four meters if you stretch it. And Ramoth is 45 meters in length? That means she is almost the size of the second generation Boeing 727 (46.7 meters).
 * Please re-read the first book, carefully. They are lizzards. Small. Not any larger than a rat! They are bread until they are car sided, and can be ridden. Ramoth, is the largest dragon, that was inbread and became a bemoth. ( and feet is the right measure )! 69.232.200.95 (talk) 02:01, 1 February 2011 (UTC)--

I think it more likely that Ruth may be eighteen feet in length and Ramoth is forth five feet in length.Carloak (talk) 16:06, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Anne McCaffrey herself said that measuring dragon lengths in meters was an error. They should be in feet. 130.101.165.68 (talk) 14:56, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.49.101.46 (talk) 19:20, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

As someone of a fan of the books ...
The article is very good, even for Wikipedia. It's accurate, concise, and reflects the texts as written. Thanks to all who contributed. Ms McCaffrey would be proud. 69.232.200.95 (talk) 02:03, 1 February 2011 (UTC)--

Feet vs Meters
I have seen numerous people state that Anne herself said they were meant to be feet. However, never once have I seen a source to this information. Does anyone know where the original source is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.113.230.253 (talk) 20:44, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The only reference I can find isn't very specific, but it does help: "You've groomed horses - multiply that by three times and you've got the size of a dragon to keep clean."— From an archived GeoCities user's website. Wouldn't stand the WP:RS test at all, but if we can suspend disbelief that the interview actually occurred, this is helpful. Since the average length of a horse is approximately eight feet, that would make dragons about twenty-four feet in length. This makes much more sense than using meters! I'll keep searching for better sources.&mdash; D'Ranged 1  VTalk  21:38, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Issue is though the feet measurement doesn't fit some of what the dragons are described as doing. Mnementh is described as making a cage for Lessa with his hands, which I don't think he could do if he was measured in feet. Also the tail would add a lot to the length. It just feels like feet is too small while meters are too large. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.113.230.253 (talk) 02:40, 17 June 2014 (UTC)