Talk:Dragon boat/Archive 1

Untitled
Discussion Dated: June 15, 2005, Vancouver Canada

Jonathon Stanley removed what he considered to be "vandalism" on June 10, 2005.

Dear Jonathon Stanley

Would you please correspond with me, either directly by email or via this discussion page. I would sincerely wish to exchange views with you, as well as discuss how we might develop the theme of wiki dragon boat culture and origins coherently and possibly collaboratively. You removed some significant material based on your belief that it was so much "nonsense", but perhaps a separate wiki entry would be in order, yes ?

The material I contributed and which you removed was actually researched over the past 8 years and can be supported by scholarly and other common Chinese cultural references. I didn't insert references because 1) there are so many of them and 2) I don't know enough about where Wiki wishes to include them, and 3) I don't have the time or technical skills at present to enter them all in.

Much of what one reads about DB culture on the web today is not very accurately presented or simply repeats and perpetuates notions that are without basis. Hopefully with the collaboration of well meaning wiki contributors, this site can serve as an exemplary site for well researched and valid materials on the topic.

Li Liangren

Liangren@Dragonboat.com

PS I corrected a few technical misinterpretations throughout the content (eg. rowing is not paddling and vice versa), being a holder of a Senior Racing Officer licence of the world dragon boat racing federation.

What Is Nonsense ?
Eye Dotting

If you go to Hongkong or Vancouver for example, Daoist (Taoist) priests actually still perform rites to "awaken the dragon" annually. They do so on or as close to the "Double Fifth" or 5th day 5th Lunar Month, which is a traditional Asian way of reckoning the Summer Solstice period and the beginning of the rain giving Monsoons, by an agrarian society entirely dependent upon wet rice cultivation for their economy and society.

They "believe" that by dotting the eyes of the dragon head with red paint made of chickens blood, that the slumbering dragon's SPIRIT is re-awakened (resurrected) and that its chi is energetic once again. (In english, the words "spirit" "respire" and "esprit" derive from "breath", so there are similarities east and west.)

For 2005, the Double Fifth was last Saturday, on June 11. Check any Chinese calendar. While I am not a sinologist or academic, I have studied Chinese language, culture and history with a particular specialist interest in uncovering dragon boat culture and related Chinese nautical affairs (eg. junks, sampans, navigation, astronomy, boat building, dragons).

Legends

Tales about Ch'u Yuen / Qu Yuan are simply that, tales. Though QY is believed to be a real historical personnage, (in the same way that Jesus Christ is regarded as having actually lived), QY's association with Dragon Boat actually came some time AFTER the custom of racing boats had arisen. In fact, anthropologically, both the QY and JC figures share some common elements and features, especially according to the approach of folklorist Frazer in his "The Golden Bough".

QY's "legend" is believed by scholars to have been a "fabrication" of the Confucian scholars in the imperial court as one more way of legitimizing the emperor's and Confucian authority. (There were other ways used as well.) Just as Christianity absorbed and integrated existing  so-called "pagan" rituals into emerging Christian doctrine  (eg. Winter Solstice became Christmas birth of Christ), so too did the Confucian "mandarins" appropriate for political purposes "primitive" popular religious and other beliefs. The QY legend first appears in a Han Dynasty text, attributed to Sima Qian, a Confucian scholar whose "History" is a staple for sinologists.

"Madame White Snake" is a popularly known opera in China (I have the video and several books in english about the story) and its setting is during Duan Wu Jie. This legend set to music has been told since the Tang Dynasty. You would have to be Chinese or a Chinese Opera fan to be familiar with this tale.

Summer Solstice
The Chinese themselves NEVER say "dragon boat festival" (which in mandarin would be literally "Long Zhou Jie"). Instead, they refer to their observances as "Duan Wu Jie". which has NOTHING whatsoever to do with dragons (as a term) and everything to do with the position of the sun (i.e. the summer solstice). Dragon Boat racing historically is a Summer Solstice rite, any anthropologist, ethnologist or folklorist will concur. It is a kind of "water festival", in common with many such other water celebrations throughout the world. China suffered yet another major flood just 2 weeks. The power and energy of water is just as central to Chinese society today as it was 2000 years ago. The "dragon" was one psychological way or solution for dealing with this calamity. Today they use satellites.

So where does the term "dragon boat festival" actually originate, I wondered 20 years ago, when it is supposed to be "Duan Wu" (mandarin) or "Tuen Ng" (cantonese) ? (I began racing dragon boats in 1986). It seems that this english moniker must have been coined by colonial Europeans in the 1800s who didn't understand the "superstitions" of the "ignorant rural peasants" or "inscrutible Orientals". Westerners certainly didn't realize the significance of the true underlying purpose of the races (as most Chinese today don't either.) The QY story is obviously charming, quaint and easy to tell, unlike the historical origins of the boat racing practice. It took me about 3 years of research to eventually translate the true sense of "duan wu" into english, since "duan" has a very obscure and ancient original meaning. (I don't read Chinese which makes my research all the more challenging.)

There are MANY other practices besides racing boats that traditionally take place as part of Duan Wu Jie. And there are many other types of similar boat racing customs throughout east, south east and south Asia. DB simply is the format best known to westerners.

Qi Energy

George Lucas actually did base his Jedi Order and Force notions partially on Chinese traditions like the Shaolin Monks and Chi energy. He described this on a recent television interview following the 6th and final release of his SW double trilogy. I am not making this stuff up !

Chi / Qi which is what Tai Chi and Chinese Traditional Medicine practioners base their beliefs on. While you might not believe in the scientific validity of "chi" yourself, and believe it to be an "ignorant superstition", it is not "nonsense" to MILLIONS of followers and adherants throughout the world today who believe it indeed does "exist" as a form of energy or spirit. Who are you and I to say otherwise ?

I am not a Star Wars "fan" or groupie and was simply trying to demonstrate how seemingly obscure and "non-scientific" notions going back 2000 years have reinvented themselves in our post-dot.com era and reappear in contemporary popular culture, unbeknownst to millions of consumers. It is a rather remarkable durability to say the least.

In Conclusion
I could go on providing much more (overly detailed) insight into dragon boat's rich but so far not-too-well-known-outside-China cultural underpinnings. That is what an encyclopedia should be able to provide, a repository of knowledge and understanding.

As the author of the contributed "nonsense" I would like to invite Jonathon to contact me and outline what he takes issue with so that there might be a reconciliation or normalization of the historical and cultural roots of this engaging water activity whose pedigree reaches far back before recorded history.

IDBF recognition
I am not sure if:

The IDBF is accepted by the International Olympic Committee (IOC), the World Anti Doping Agency (WADA), and the General Association of International Sports Federations (GAISF) as the International Federation for Dragon Boat Sport

As far as I know, IDBF is not a member of IOC, WADA nor GAISF. It has approached these organizations, and only WADA accepts input from IDBF. There is also some debate whether or not dragon boating as a sport falls under the International Canoeist Federation (ICF) or IDBF.

The IDBF was recognized on the 24th of April 2007 by the GAISF as a Member and the Governing body of Dragonboat sport. It was clearly pointed out that Dragonboating is not a canoe discipline. Further on the ICF was asked to respect this decision from now on.

Just my two cent worth.

slang should not be used in an encyclopedia article, namely "gluteus maximus". It should be changed to its proper name. People should treat Wikipedia no less than any other encyclopedia and should therefore not use slang.

Recognition
The IDBF is not recognized by either the IOC or the AGFIS.

http://www.arisf.org/members.htm http://www.agfisonline.com/en/members.phtml

Unless somebody can present some evidence that confirms that the IDBF is recognized by either of these bodies, these statements should be removed.

The IDBF was recognized on the 24th of April 2007 by the GAISF as a Member and the Governing body of Dragonboat sport.

>>> OCT 2008: NOTE THAT AGFIS is the french version of the acronym for the GAISF !!! 24.82.149.245 (talk) 08:21, 12 October 2008 (UTC) Li Liangren

Clean up
The external links have gotten a bit out of hand. I've reorganized the annual races by month, and suggested splitting the list of teams (which appears to have no criteria for inclusion, sort order or other organization) into a separate article. Comments? PaulKishimoto 05:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I second this idea. They should also be sorted into separate countries because listing the hundreds of teams will be messy. BuBZ 20:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)