Talk:Dragonriders of Pern

Pern and Dragonriders
We need guidelines as to what information should be in Dragonriders of Pern, and what information should be in Pern. Tentatively, I'll suggest that Dragonriders of Pern should be about the events in the books, and analysis of the series as fiction, while Pern should be about the planet itself, as "fact". Bluap 16:08, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with Bluap. Indeed, what we really need is a WikiProject for Pern and the Dragonriders books. -Acjelen 19:32, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Drudges
"drudges" are the serving class of pern, A person who does tedious, menial, or unpleasant work.

Spoiler Tag
I reluctantly added the spoiler tag to the list of characters as the resolution and one death from Dragonsblood are now given. It may need to be added to the top of the article, but I scanned through and found only a few vague hints about the situation following The White Dragon. -Acjelen 19:42, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wartime aspect
Has any writing/exploration been done to engage the similarities between the dragonriders and the fighter pilots of the modern world's air forces? ~ Dpr 22:45, 18 July 2005 (UTC)


 * The connection is intentional. Anne McCaffery has written that she used such divisions as bombers and fighters in developing the dragons - Nik42 00:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * McCaffrey's son Todd Johnson (Todd McCaffrey) contributed to The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern (1989) an article on Threadfighting tactics based on his experience as a pilot (non-combat experience, iirc). --P64 (talk) 22:43, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Dragons originated as a biologically renewable airforce and Pern as their setting. I have now explained this at Anne McCaffrey relying on Dragonholder (1999) by Todd M:
 * "Todd McCaffrey recalls, his mother asked him what he thought of dragons. She was brainstorming about their 'bad press all these years'. The result was a 'technologically regressed survival planet' whose people were united against a threat from space, in contrast to America divided by the Vietnam War. 'The dragons became the biologically renewable air force, and their riders 'the few' who, like the RAF pilots in World War Two, fought against incredible odds day in, day out—and won.'"
 * See also her answer to question 2, Frequently Asked Questions. The Worlds of Anne McCaffrey. Pern Home (c) Todd McCaffrey 2010.
 * --P64 (talk) 19:40, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Fictional Universes not belong in Wikipedia?
See: Village_pump_%28policy%29/Archive V. I hope I am not in violation of WP:SPAM by informing talk pages of some Fictional Universes about this thread. Perhaps some other fan can pass the word to other relevant interests, or perhaps there ought to be some NPOV template at top of the talk pages. User:AlMac|(talk) 14:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Doubt they'll do anything. Plus, DroP has a very large fanbase to be notable. Plus, there is the Dune series, Warhammer /40k, Star Wars... Disinclination 06:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Update: At present (November 7, 2006), that link no longer takes the user to the discussion in question. When we find where it has moved (presumably archived), we should post the new link here. Lawikitejana 14:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Order of the List of books
Currently the article lists the books in chronological order of events. I think this is a bad idea. First, it's confusing to someone who wants to start at the beginning and therefore ends up reading the ninth novel published. Furthermore, in my opinion, it diminishes the enjoyment of the series -- while Dragonsdawn is a good novel, part of its charm is in learning the true origins of what you've already read about. And I think Todd McCaffrey's Dragonsblood is great, but it's much more powerful if you've already read Dragonsflight and Moreta so you know what a big problem disease and lack of dragons would be to Pern. I propose reordering the list to reflect when the books were written/published. --Apascover 20:05, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Seeing no objection, I'm making the change. --Apascover 19:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that publishing order is useful (mostly because the Author herself has requested this). However, there should also be a sub article on the Dragonriders of Pern timeline (with a link to it from here) with references to the books for those trying to keep straight the order of events in the storyline. Jon 16:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The current text of the article claims that McCaffrey recommends reading Dragondrums before The White Dragon, even though she says to read them in chronological order of release, and The White Dragon was one year before Dragondrums. Is there any source for this claim, because it seems to contradict other things she's said? Parableman 03:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Pern Chronology. On sources for dates in Pern history, see my note Talk:List of Pern books. --P64 (talk) 22:55, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Reading order. suggested by Anne M: One front endpaper in The Renegades of Pern (1989) lists The Dragonriders of Pern books published to date, headed by the note "The author respectfully suggests that books in the Pern series be read in which they were published. Which is: [two-column list]" . That note has too many purposes, poor layout, and debatable interpretation. Dragondrums does appear in column two one line before The White Dragon in column one, and the same for Nerilka and Moreta, both contrary to publication order. --P64 (talk) 23:15, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The same note in another volume[*] lists Moreta before Nerilka and lists the Dragonflight and "Harper Hall" trilogies side by side in two columns. (The Harper Hall trilogy was independent, submitted to a different publisher as children's books, thus written partly for a younger audience that would not yet read Dragonflight.) --P64 (talk) 18:47, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Recently she merely emphasizes that Dragonflight should be read first. See question 10, Frequently Asked Questions. The Worlds of Anne McCaffrey. Pern Home (c) Todd McCaffrey 2010.
 * --P64 (talk) 19:43, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
 * [*] The incomplete list of books by Anne McCaffrey provided in front endpapers of Pegasus in Flight (1990) covers Pern books in a box, roughly the top half of the page. It includes explanatory notes above and below the titles; the headnote suggests reading in the order written and listed; the footnote explains The Atlas of Pern and The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern. The layout is what I described above[*], although I had previously seen the table in a Pern book from about that time.
 * I don't believe anyone would interpret the two-column layout of Dragonriders and Harper Hall trilogies to suggest that Dragonsong should be read before The White Dragon or Dragonquest before Dragondrums. The headnote and layout do clearly suggest reading the original trilogy in order, and before reading Moreta, Moreta before Nerilka, then Dragonsdawn, and Renegades last. All that detail is not intended seriously, I'm sure; it's a consequence of limited space available and the linear order within the first column. --P64 (talk) 21:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Miscellaneous
In passing the article states that dragons have no vocal chords. I don't htink that's correct; dragons are incapable of human speech, of course, but they bugle constantly. --Apascover 03:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * A lot of animals bugle or make other sounds. None of them have vocal cords. You don't need vocal cords to make sounds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.67.66.223 (talk) 14:27, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

An observation on dragon size
Under 'Economic considerations' the dragon Ramoth is listed as being forty-five feet in length. This is inaccurate, as The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern lists her as forty-five meters in length. Other size comparisons in this book and the actual novels support this.
 * Regarding the purported confusion of feet and meters (which I've seen elsewhere on the web), Todd McCaffrey answering questions in his blog seems to support the canonical status of Mum's early explanations in meters, and the enormous size of dragons. He treats The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern (1989) as authority.
 * At the same time, he observes that dragons became smaller as Mum rode horses. He thinks Ruth is the size of a large horse. --P64 (talk) 19:52, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

...Ramoth, was described as being about forty-five feet (as large as the largest Tyrannosaurus rex ever found) or thirteen and one half meters (as large as a jet plane – dragon size is an ongoing debate among fans) in length.


 * This seems to be illustrating the disparity between 45 feet and 45 meters, but gives the impression that 13.5 meters is the size of a jet plane.


 * It should be changed to something like

...Ramoth, was described as being either about forty-five feet (thirteen and one half meters; as large as the largest Tyrannosaurus rex ever found) or about forty-five meters (as large as a jet plane – dragon size is an ongoing debate among fans) in length.
 * Jmichael ll (talk) 02:10, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Religion on Pern
Coming from reading the Religious Considerations section, shouldn't it be stated somewhere why religion was never taken to the new planet? I believe there was a very large war (I forget the name sorry), that involved many of the original Pernese that came over, had decided not to involve religion because that was one of the many reasons that the War started. I'll have to find my references. Disinclination 06:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Anne McCaffrey stated somewhere that she left out religion due to arguments that might arise. She had no intention of her book becoming the source of new controversies. Besides, Pern was a colonial planet, hundreds of years in the future. Perhaps the colonists were all atheists or something? Or maybe the've dispensed with religion altogether because they're so materialistic! That was the reason they left for P.E.R.N., after all. The rest of the colonies and planets were too developed and they wanted an agrarian society.
 * By the way, the war was called the "Nathi Space War".24.147.27.170 (talk) 01:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * There is useful information about McCaffrey and religion, and similar themes, in "So You're Anne McCaffrey" (introduction to 1993 collection The Girl Who Heard Dragons) and in Dragonholder (1999 scrapbook biography by Todd M). --P64 (talk) 00:01, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Fire lizards
Various articles (particularly the ones about the Harper Hall Trilogy) mention fire lizards, but they aren't in this main article. We need to add a line or two to the most relevant articles so that this topic is covered. I haven't read through them recently enough &mdash; most all my fiction collection has been in storage for the last couple of years while my career's on hold &mdash; but the information definitely needs to be there for the uninitiated. Lawikitejana 14:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Her entry at ISFDB lists a 1984 interview, "Fire lizards is cats; Dragons ain't horses".
 * Dragonholder (1999) by her son shows the role of cats and horses in her life from childhood to date, mainly thru the 1970s. --P64 (talk) 19:58, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Added title - A Gift of Dragons
While the short stories contained are mentioned, the title is not. To bring it in line with Chronicles, I added the second anthology's title. Can it be added to the Dragonriders infobox? I am not sure how to do this. Pejorative.majeure 05:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * A Gift is in both of the show/hide templates Pern stories and Works by Anne McCaffrey, perhaps years ago. Follow the template link and select "Toolbox; What links here" to see where the templates are in use. --P64 (talk) 23:56, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

''Consult the new Anne McCaffrey bibliography. Please use Talk:Anne McCaffrey bibliography for discussion of bibliography (in contrast to what bibliographical data belongs in this article).'' --P64 (talk) 21:21, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Consistency needed: SF or Fantasy?
I've noticed that some articles on the Pern series classify it as a fantasy series (e.g. the page on Robinton is classified as a fantasy-related stub) while others class it as science fiction and some (like this article) are calling it fantasy/science fiction. I'm new here and don't know all the ropes yet, but I'd suggest we ought to clean that up. (I'm willing but it might be a long time before I have a chance to get to it, plus I still have to figure out how, so I thought I'd mention it here in case someone else wants to "bite"!) I'd have to argue that there are really no grounds for calling it fantasy. The "dragons" were created by genetic manipulation, and despite its medieval-type guild system and low-tech culture during most of the series, Pern is not an alternate reality but rather a colonized planet which hides a supercomputer in its ruins and artificial sattelites in its night skies. Telepathy, teleportation, and time travel are common SF elements, and while mostly left unexplained here, that's not really unusual in the genre. Overall, Pern's inhabitants definitely have a "scientific" viewpoint on the world: they look for causes and effects, they (re)invent machinery and (re)discover natural processes, etc. I'd suggest that we need to standardize to "science-fiction series" and "science-fiction stub" and so on. Hierophany 22:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The SF or Fantasy debate is a popular one, but general consensus seems to be that it is SF (for example in this article at the Science Fiction Hall of Fame). Anne McCaffrey herself has also stated that the Pern series is SF rather than Fantasy (e.g. there is no magic), but I can't find an online reference for that right now. tameeria 15:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Tameeria as a matter of principle that it's SF rather than Fantasy, but it's somewhat complicated by the fact that the earlier books in the series are straighter fantasy (although still, no magic). The SF elements were added later (beginning in The White Dragon, IIRC) once McCaffrey started visiting the origins of the society she'd already begun to chronicle.  I don't think it's useless for the articles to note this hybrid approach, although if someone wants to do so more clearly, that's fine with me.--Apascover (talk) 23:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The SF Fantasy debate is pointless because the original prologue for Dragonflight (1968) clearly establishes that it is an Earth Colony. The subsequent revisions to the prologue only strengthen this. It is clear that the world has mechanical marvels that the current inhabitants no longer understand (when Lessa bathes in F'lar's quarters). The mechanical nature of the flame throwers, te forgotten knowlege of the smiths, and the interplanetary nature of Thread further establish the SF nature of the story. Dragonquest (1971) solidifies the SF setting when Jaxom and Felessan discover the artificially illuminated rooms with the microscope. The White Dragon only takes those tidbits and hits you over the head to let you know that if you hadn't already guessed, Pern is SF. Much of what Anne has done with Pern that some consider Fantasy (telepathy and the like) were previously done by Asimov in his Foundation Trilogy, written more than 20 years before Pern was created. User:yotsuya48 22:30, 2 December 2009

Articles on Pern stories should cover the disagreements about classification of the books, preferably with references. That is not only classification as Science Fiction or Fantasy (or high fantasy fiction, etc) but also classification as children's, juvenile, or adult fiction. There may be little such coverage possible, except by original research that refers to particular libraries and booksellers, which does not belong in the articles.

The three Harper Hall books (1976 to 1979) were solicited as works for children by a different publisher. They also stand alone without "science fiction prologues", also without any Pernese dates.
 * qualification 2011-11-09: I should have said there are no prologues in the 2003 edition (Simon Pulse), inspected at my public library, where they are in the children's collection fwiw. -P64

I doubt that any of my observations are relevant to consistency in the classification implied by assignment to wikipedia Categories or WikiProjects. Those classifications do not count as research, and "original classification" in those respects is welcome, as far as I know. --P64 (talk) 23:42, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * In my first or second pass through all of the Pern books this fall, in the lead paragraphs I called every one "fantasy or science fiction", or placed it in the "fantasy or science fiction" DoP series. That has the virtue or vice of consistency. For one book (First Fall) that has been revised to "science fantasy/science fiction". I don't like the slash. Science Fantasy is ok in principle, and might become preferable, but the "Fantasy" entry is better ("Science fantasy" is multiply flagged) and "Science fiction" is much better (WP:SF gives grade B; grade Start for the other two). Fantasy and science fiction are more familiar terms also.
 * For what it's worth, WP:Novels fantasy task force claimed all 22 Pern fiction books and science fiction task force claimed only one --before I created two more, which I allocated to WP:Novels fantasy for consistency. WP:SF claims very few of them, I know but I didn't track. --P64 (talk) 20:45, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

All the individual book pages list the genre as science fiction. That is also the genre that the publisher, Del Rey, printed on all the covers, starting with the first one, Dragonflight. As a writer of both science fiction and fantasy, I am intimately acquainted with what tropes flag each genre and the crossover of science fantasy. This series and the rest of Anne McCaffrey's series specifically and solely make use of the science fiction tropes. Science fantasy requires the mixing of science and magic. ESP is a purely science fiction trope found in most classic science fiction including the works of Asimov and many Star Trek stories. Fantasy requires the use of magic, which McCaffrey did not use. She is not the only science fiction author to use low tech societies on alien planets. Yotsuya48 (talk) 07:51, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Separate page for Pern Fandom?
Hi all, I was wondering if Fandom should be a separate page? I saw that there are Wiki pages e.g. for Harry Potter Fandom or Tolkien Fandom for example, and Pern Fandom and its several decades long history certainly is old and large enough to warrent its own page. If so, should the page be "Dragonriders of Pern Fandom", simply "Pern Fandom", or more general "Anne McCaffrey Fandom"?

Also, a large part of McCaffrey Fandom are discussion forums, but apparently having links to forums in my attempt to expand the fandom section has triggered a bot to revert it with the comment that such links are not wanted. However, the fandom section already contains a link to a discussion board (Pern MU*). Should that link be taken out when re-editing? Or are these links considered valuable in this case? I saw that there are similar links on other fandom pages as well, simply because, well, that's where most fan interaction can be found.

tameeria 14:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, has the fandom been discussed in reliable sources, like newspapers and science-fiction magazines? If the only people talking about how large the Pern fandom is the Pern fandom themselves, it's probably not enough.
 * As far as links go, they should pass the external links guideline, and forums are almost certainly going to violate this. They provide no additional reliable information to an article, and in the end are just more places for social networking.  Encyclopedias aren't really for social networking.  ColourBurst 01:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Pern fandom has been discussed in newspapers. I remember an article from the Wall Street Journal quoting Meg Cabot, author of "The Princess Diaries", that she started her writing career as a Dragonriders of Pern fan-fiction writer. There have been some quarrels over fan pages being shut down due to copyright issues which got newspaper coverage. So I would assume it certainly meets the notability criteria. Its been 40 years now since the first Pern story was published, so enough time for a notable fan base to develop. - tameeria 01:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * To write an article "Pern fandom" with fan sites as references would be original research, same as to settle the "Science fiction" issue (also on this talk page) by reference to library and bookseller classifications. Ideally there might be an article "Pern fandom" with reliable sources as references and it would link to some fan sites as examples.
 * McCaffrey websites may be reliable sources on some points, of course, same as front and back material in Pern books may be. -P64 (talk) 23:51, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Revert edits by User 198.189.58.254
I meant to put this in the edit summary but accidently saved page before I did.

I've reverted the edits by User 198.189.58.254 because the prior version of the article had a more encyclopedic tone. The new edits sounded much more like an essay, without adding any new or relevant information to the article. Vgranucci 23:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Chronological Order of the Series
I know that there is a list of the books/short stories by when they were published, but should a list comprosing the canonical order of the stories be included? Or if there is a seperate article containing this information could someone point me in the right direction? Unknown Dragon (talk) 18:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * List of Pern books. I just threw this together based on earlier versions of this page (which originally had a chronological list before I changed it a couple years ago), so it could use some formatting and maybe fact-checking.--Apascover (talk) 23:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Pern Chronology. On sources for dates in Pern history, see my note Talk:List of Pern books. --P64 (talk) 22:55, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Speculation
I'm not an expert on this series but the 'Social Considerations' section seems to be pure speculation and thus not warranted. Lots42 (talk) 01:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that the root cause is that the whole "Pernese Worldview and Society" reads as if it were written as an essay, which is fairly common in Wikipedia. Over time, the tone of the article will no doubt improve Bluap (talk) 02:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Clearly it hasn't improved over the course of 5 years since these comments were made. The entire section needs to be removed, as it violates Wikipedia's injunction against original research. Simlpy 'waiting it out' and hoping it magically gets better does not work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.174.234.211 (talk) 13:28, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

concern over timeline
I am concerned at how out of synch the series is becoming and some of the dating inconsistencies.

The most glaring example is in Dragon’s Fire (published 2006) which is set around year 490 some 18 years before Third Pass. There is mention of Holds, Weyrs, Halls and Traders, Gathers and Shunned with sufficient detail and there being integral to Pern social structures certainty that cause conflict with the first-written Pern volumes where none of these are mentioned. In addition, both firelizards and southern continent are strong components of Pern life and all are apparently forgotten by some 900 years later. A complicated but difficult task would be a rewrite of the two first-written volumes to add in all the later features which quickly become integral to many story-lines of the later 7th Pass series.

Notes from Prologue(s) – ‘for 2 generations, the colonists gave the Red Star little thought ….. The date for First Fall is elsewhere stated as Year 8 which is not ‘two generations’ after Landing.

By Third Pass there were six Weyrs …. The return of the Red Star every two hundred years and each Pass takes 50 years … Then there came the Long Gap …. and Lessa went back 400 years to the last (Sixth) Fall.

Strangely, Nerilka’s Story is set at Year 1541 when the Sixth Pass is nearly over. Then, is the Long Interval, after which begins Seventh Pass, the time of F’lar, Lessa, Robinton & Aivas, at approximately 1,950 years after Landing.

213.48.46.141 (talk) 14:52, 30 July 2009 (UTC)salisbury-99


 * Obviously, the author reserves the right the change their vision of history as they write the books. That is one of the reasons why I always recommend that the books be originally read in chronological order.


 * You are perfectly correct that the original prologues give a much greater timespan between colonization and First Fall than turned out to be the case when Dragonsdawn was written. (Presumably, Anne felt that it was more dramatic to have the First Fall affect the original colonists, rather than their descendants.)


 * A few of the discrepencies you mention are explained in the books. For example, Lessa's timeline is the 9th pass, so the Oldtimes come from the 8th Pass, a long time after Moreta's time.  There is mention in Moreta of a decision to prevent people from going to the Southern Continent - presumably this is the reason why it is unknown in the 9th Pass.  Holds and Weyrs are, of course, mentioned from the start.  I can remember Halls being mentioned in Dragonquest, but they reach a greater prominence after the Harper Hall trilogy was written (that is also when Gathers are first mentioned, but the previous two books are dragonrider-centric, and Gathers are less important for the riders than for ordinary folk).  I don't see anything contradicting the presence of traders in the early books.  As for Shunning, it is by believe that the practice dies out in the 3rd pass, not long after Dragonsfire.


 * I agree with you that fire lizards are problematic: there is a line in Red Star Rising saying that the fire lizards had disappeared from the North, and I always supposed that this was Anne's explanation for why they weren't known about in the early 9th Pass. However, the fire lizards reappear in the 3rd pass.  Presumably sometime between the 3rd and 6th passes, people lose contact with fire lizards once again. Bluap (talk) 15:49, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Pern Chronology. On sources for dates in Pern history, see my note Talk:List of Pern books.
 * Any reconciliation is for the McCaffreys, authors of companion books, and fan sites. Any detailed account of discrepancies is for critics and those others. --P64 (talk) 22:55, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Short stories
Entries for short stories should clearly name the title/volumes of first publication. That may mean clearly name two volumes. We should not say "collected" regarding first publication.

For example, is "The Girl Who Heard Dragons" originally published in a collection of short stories with the same title? (I can't complete the example without knowing the answer. This note should help explain the problem.) --P64 (talk) 20:28, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * For that particular short story, see Bluap (talk) 23:45, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

import from the chronological list of Pern books

 * This list of Pern short fiction with publication data (unreliable) is imported from List of Pern books.

quote

This list gives original publication data for fourteen Pern short stories, novelettes, and novellas without category distinctions. Both the Hugo Awards and Nebula Awards define those categories by the ceilings 7500, 17500, and 40000 words and longer works are defined to be novels.

Most of these stories are also listed above in Pern historical order.

Three were incorporated in novels. Nine appear in the two Pern collections including three that were original there.


 * "Weyr Search", Analog, Oct 1967 (incorporated in Dragonflight)
 * "Dragonrider", Analog, Dec 1968 and Jan 1969 (incorporated in Dragonflight)
 * "The Smallest Dragonboy", Science Fiction Tales, Rand McNally, 1973 (collected in A Gift of Dragons)
 * "A Time When", NESFA Press, 1975 —hardcover limited edition for Boskone convention (incorporated in The White Dragon)
 * "The Girl Who Heard Dragons", Cheap Street, 1986; reissued as a Tor Book, Tom Doherty Associates, 1994 (collected in A Gift of Dragons)
 * "The Impression", by Jody Lynn Nye and Anne McCaffrey, The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern (1989), 44-52.
 * "Rescue Run", Analog, Aug 1992 (collected in The Chronicles of Pern: First Fall)
 * "The P.E.R.N. Survey", Amazing Stories, Sep 1993 (collected in The Chronicles)
 * "The Dolphin's Bell", Wildside Press, 1993 —limited edition, leatherbound book (collected in The Chronicles)
 * "The Ford of Red Hanrahan", original to The Chronicles, 1993
 * "The Second Weyr", original to The Chronicles, 1993
 * "Runner of Pern", Legends: Short Novels by the Masters of Modern Fantasy, ed. Robert Silverberg, 1998 (collected in A Gift of Dragons)
 * "Ever the Twain", original to A Gift of Dragons, 2002
 * "Beyond Between", Legends II: New Short Novels by the Masters of Modern Fantasy, ed. Robert Silverberg, 2003

unquote --P64 (talk) 16:04, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Consult the new Anne McCaffrey bibliography. Please use Talk:Anne McCaffrey bibliography for discussion of bibliography (in contrast to what bibliographical data belongs in this article). --P64 (talk) 21:21, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Publications and Other works
Instead of Books this article should list all Pern stories with data on original publication for short stories and novellas. Anne McCaffrey is not the place for such detail, which someone has recently inserted there. At the end of current work on that biography I may return to this matter.

For now I have only reorganized the product information, so to speak. Moving "Gamebooks and companion books" out of Books, I have renamed the latter Publications by the McCaffreys ("Stories ..." would be as good). They are the canon, essentially. "Gamebooks ..." I have grouped with all the other media under the name Other works. Fonstad and Nye worked closely with Anne McCaffrey on the Atlas and the Dragonlover's Guide. Nye is one of three Pern authors listed at pernhome.com. Nevertheless it's my judgment to separate them from the McCaffrey stories (regardless whether they be considered canonical). --P64 (talk) 15:58, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I have cut from Anne McCaffrey a recently inserted list of books in Pern historical order, which is redundant with the Chronological list of Pern books. I have also cut this note on omnibus editions. Is it valuable anywhere here?
 * (quote) Also note the following compilations:
 * The Dragonriders of Pern includes Dragonflight, Dragonquest, and The White Dragon.
 * On Dragonwings includes Dragonsdawn, Dragonseye, and Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern.
 * --P64 (talk) 00:10, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

''Consult the new Anne McCaffrey bibliography. Please use Talk:Anne McCaffrey bibliography for discussion of bibliography (in contrast to what bibliographical data belongs in this article).'' --P64 (talk) 21:21, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Chronicles by Anne M and Keith Parkinson
What was the role of Keith Parkinson in The Chronicles of Pern? We do not name him regarding any of the five stories in the collection. --P64 (talk) 18:07, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * begin quote


 * The Chronicles of Pern: First Fall, by Anne McCaffrey and Keith Parkinson (1993, anthology set mostly after Dragonsdawn)
 * "The Survey: P.E.R.N." (originally published in 1993 as "The P.E.R.N. Survey")
 * "The Dolphins' Bell", by Anne McCaffrey, Pat Morrissey, and John Betancourt (originally published in 1993)
 * "The Ford of Red Hanrahan"
 * "The Second Weyr"
 * "Rescue Run" (originally published in 1992) 1991) -P64 2011-11-09
 * ''end quote
 * Resolved. Keith Parkinson is the cover artist, the author of the painting used on the cover of the Del Rey editions. I am adding the cover artist to all of the Dragonriders Infoboxes. --P64 (talk) 16:32, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Resolved. Pat Morrissey is the cover artist and interior illustrator of the Wildside Press trade paperback The Dolphins Bell(at ISFDB) —as for the fancy Rescue Run(at ISFDB)
 * Unknown: John Betancourt
 * I have deleted all three from this list. --P64 (talk) 16:56, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * John Betancourt is credited with Book design for the Wildside Press Rescue Run. --inside back jacket of a public library copy. (Evidently the 1993 ed. listed at ISFDB. There is no date except copyright 1991 Anne McCaffrey. The reported catalog number 05448 is on the back cover.) I wonder how many book or cover designers are listed as co-authors somewhere.
 * The title page says "Illustrated by Pat Morrissey" and the inside back jacket says "Jacket art by Pat Morrissey". --P64 (talk) 20:09, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ouch. Four months ago I provided this same information at Talk:Anne McCaffrey, but I do not recall doing so. At least the information there is familiar! --P64 (talk) 15:11, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

''Consult the new Anne McCaffrey bibliography. Please use Talk:Anne McCaffrey bibliography for discussion of bibliography (in contrast to what bibliographical data belongs in this article).'' --P64 (talk) 21:21, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Consistency needed?
Regarding the 24 or more articles on Pern books, there is discussion above called (2006 to 2009 plus my recent contributions). That is concerned entirely with the alternatives. Although I am responsible for imposing consistent use of "fantasy or science fiction" in the lead paragraphs, let me take the opportunity to move the question mark forward and ask how much consistency across articles on Pern books is appropriate. After all, the books aren't consistent. --P64 (talk) 20:59, 9 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems pretty clear from the sourced treatment at Anne_McCaffrey that these works are predominantly science fiction, "though tinged with the tone and instruments of fantasy". The lead should be a simple summary of the main aspects of the subject, so should in my opinion just say science fiction for her mainly-science-fiction works. We can mention fantasy or other elements elsewhere, with appropriate sources, in the articles if convenient, where style is being discussed for example. --Mirokado (talk) 02:53, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

The Value of Marks
The page currently describes the value of marks as somewhere between $200 and $400, based on a 1/32nd mark buying 6 small fruit pies. That value seems abnormally high to me, as I can recall various lines concerning this system of trade. That would be $6.25 to $12.50 for six small pies, and the story makes reference to individuals eating several of them at a sitting. In today's world, you can easily buy a dozen fruit-filled donuts for under $6, and you can buy a package of sweet rolls for around $1.50. Of course, in an agricultural society, it may not cost much to make edible goods. I would think that a single mark would be closer to $20-40, if that.

Menolly, as Master Robinton's 'special' apprentice, is given a whole two-mark piece to spend at the gather. Piemur convinces a merchant to buy an apprentice-made tambourine for 3 and 1/2 marks, as it is high-enough quality to pass for a journeyman-made piece.

In the short story, "Runner of Pern," Tenna is searching for some leather with which to make some shoes for herself. As the bargaining begins, the leather-maker offers her the hide for 9 marks, and another in Tenna's party says even at 5 marks, it would be robbery. Tenna only has 4 to spend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.253.192.119 (talk) 19:11, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I changed the value of the mark to $20 based on the referenced source, which makes much more sense.&mdash;D'Ranged 1 talk 16:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Multiple article deletion request
Some of the articles providing background information linked to here and in other related articles are were the subject of a multiple deletion request: Articles for deletion/Holds of Pern. This article is was a candidate destination for any resulting merged content. --Mirokado (talk) 21:01, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Please see Talk:Pern which I hope will document actions taken in response to the comments at the AfD. --Mirokado (talk) 21:58, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Music
I love the music content and its recent additions but may we please have some refs for it? I also thought the tone was a bit OTT and have tried to modify it a bit without trashing it ... can you help? Cheers DBaK (talk) 18:12, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Music content appears to be adequately cited now (not by me). Can the citation request be removed? 69.218.223.39 (talk) 21:28, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

External links modified
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Total Eclipse blog
Conrad T. Pino (talk) 03:49, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Archive reference addition
 * Total Eclipse blog
 * Total Eclipse blog

Discussion about Pern navbox
There's a discussion about the Pern navbox which may be of interest to you. Dan Bloch (talk) 02:19, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

"Firestone (Pern)" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Firestone_(Pern)&redirect=no Firestone (Pern)] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 06:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC)