Talk:Dreaming of You (Selena album)/Archive 1

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Quotations
I have added some quotations that I do not know if its a violation of any rules, so if you do find that it is please tell me and I will immediately remove it from this article. Thank you. AJona1992 (talk) 13:36, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Charts
I am not sure if this (the last one) is notable for inclussion?

If it is I'll place it in the article, AJona1992 (talk) 21:55, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Studio album revert
I understand that Dreaming of You, when released, had six unreleased songs of Selena and was entitled to be a studio album, however, the album was released after her death and included previously released songs, which does not qualify for a studio album only release. If the album was a studio (only) album, then the singer would have been alive, finished recording, and promoted the album worldwide. Unfortunately, she was murdered, so I'm going to, for the last time, revert the last revision which was changed by User:Chelo61 at 21:13 on 24 December 2010. If anyone rejects this change, then please note your reasons on why the album should be named only for a studio album. Thanks, AJona1992 (talk) 22:50, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Dreaming of You is counted as a Selena studio album. It isn't like Mis Primeros Éxitos, Personal Best or Ones which are greatest hits. Chelo61 (talk) 01:46, 25 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, the album is considered "half" a studio album (new tracks) and a greatest hits album (old tracks remastered). Your right on that note, but there's no album in the world that is considered a studio album with majority or minority of the album with old tracks on their albums. So that's why I and someone else had put "is the final studio album and second complication album by Selena" and on the template highlighted because, fans alike and critics states their description upon that note. AJona1992 (talk) 03:46, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Prose errors
I have corrected the prose errors specified in the failed GA review, even though I notice that there are still more errors in the article that need to be fixed. Anyone who notices this please feel free to fix the remaining errors. Bulldog edit my talk page da contribs review me 06:22, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I have expanded the article further, saving your work along with it. If the prose errors have been addressed, is the article ready to be nominated for a featured article? AJona1992 (talk) 16:34, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I spotted and fixed some minor errors in the article, but it is not ready yet. Bulldog edit my talk page da contribs review me 22:24, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for at least helping out! All the help you have done makes a big difference though :) Take care, AJona1992 (talk) 22:27, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

New certifications
Selena's father Abraham Quintanilla, Jr. was given three plaques, one including, Dreaming of You being certified 3x Diamond by the RIAA. These plaques were given to him during the unveiling of the new Selena postage stamps. Is there any way of adding this on the article, since theres not a reliable source, at the present time? AJona1992 (talk) 23:02, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Resolved at WT:IRS. AJona1992 (talk) 05:19, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

What Needs To Be Done

 * 1) Copy-edit the entire article
 * 2) Fix and expand lead per WP:Lead and fourth peer review.
 * 3) Fix all references in correct formats, retrieve dates and properly fix inconsistent dates.
 * 4) Remove some wikilinks per WP:OVERLINK and fourth peer review.
 * 5) Somehow, try to make the sections "Release" and "Singles" different from each other, per fourth peer review.
 * 6) Try to expand the "Promotion" section more with commercials that were released, shirts, bootlegs controversy and other merchandise that were sold in Mexico and in Texas.
 * 7) Expand the commercial reception section with "Chart performance" of the album.
 * 8) Expand the critical reception section with newspapers and magazines.
 * 9) Merge all three track listings together.
 * 10) Fix the "Personnel" section similar to other FA-Class Album articles.
 * 11) Add more certifications from secondary sources found.
 * 12) Expand the "Further reading" section with books and magazines and properly spell all authors names per WP:MOS.
 * 13) Try and search on Wikipedia or Commons for free content that could be included in the article.
 * 14) Try to figure out if File:Selena - Only Love.ogg is really needed in the article, per fourth peer review.
 * 15) Get the article copy edited at WP:GOCE.
 * 16) Nominate the article for WP:FA status.
 * 17) Complete.

Did what I can do, AJona1992 (talk) 05:09, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

GOCE copyedit August 2011
Hi

During the copyedit some things came to light that may need attention:


 * Lead
 * "As of 2007 the album has sold over 12 million copies." - any chance of an updated figure?
 * Yes. RIAA issued the album 3x Diamond (30 million) during the unveiling of the new United States stamps featuring Selena. The only proof is a picture that was taken with her family holding the plaques. I asked if I can cite it but when I asked at WT:IRS and told them that Billboard nor RIAA updated any information about it, they said it was best to just not worry about it since there was no print source.


 * Production and development
 * "Behar and Stephen Finfer requested Selena for a major crossover album." - needs clarifying, did they request her to do one or were they asking someone else? Perhaps, "Behar and Stephen Finfer requested that Selena be allowed to make a major crossover album."
 * Jose and Stephen sent a request for Selena to begin her crossover album.


 * "after less than twenty-four hours in Los Angeles." - is this relevant, and if so what is special about "less than 24 hours"?
 * Was this about her signing a contract? If so, then kinda. EMI Records really didn't feel that Selena would be of "crossover potential" and when Jose lied about her and her band leaving for a new record deal, they didn't want that to happen and she was signed within a day.


 * Production and development
 * "Highly because, SBK knew what they were doing for a crossover event" - does not really make any sense. The preceding sentence is talking about her only being allowed to choose one song. The ref is quoted as being the album notes, perhaps someone can check them.
 * Selena's brother stated that he felt the reason why Selena wasn't allowed to pick more songs was because SBK had done crossover deals before with John Secada and the Barrio Boyzz.


 * "included Keith Thomas, Trey Lorenz of Epic Records, Mark Goldenberg, Kit Hain, Guy Roche, Donna Delorey, Diane Warren, Rhett Lawrence, David Byrne of Luaka Bop Inc., Franne Golde, Tom Snow, Full Force, Brian "Red" Moore, A.B. Quintanilla III, Barrio Boyzz, K.C. Porter, Felipe Bernmejo, Jose Hernandez and Felipe Valdes Leal." - that seems more like a full listing rather than "including" which would probably only have a few of them in it.
 * This is a list of producers, composers and back-up singers.


 * "her vocals were later used in the song after Byrne recorded it in Clifton, New York" - needds clarifying. Did Byrne record her vocals and the song in Clifton? If not, where did they come from? and how could she have sung in time if the song was not yet recorded?
 * Byrne recorded the song first in Clifton, New York. Selena later recorded her part in Corpus Christi.


 * "Keith Thomas stated that every ..." - who is he?
 * The composer for "I Could Fall in Love".


 * "... every time Selena would walk in the recording studio that all eyes would be on her due to her energy and eager to succeed, who made everyone laugh." - needs the original quote looking at. All eyes would not be on her because of her eagerness, perhaps quoting directly would be best.
 * Will do.


 * Composition
 * "The album was compared to a transition marketing point-of-view and a creative point-of-view." - One cannot compare an album to "a transition marketing point-of-view, and certainly not "The album was compared to ... a creative point-of-view" I am not sure what was meant here, perhaps "The album was aimed at being a transitional-marketing tool and a creative transition". Once again quoteing directly from the source might be best.


 * Musical style and lyrics
 * "Keith Thomas told reporters that Selena went to Wal-Mart to pick an outfit to record the song in, and that she also picked up some groceries—announcing that she was going to cook dinner for Thomas. When Selena arrived at Thomas' recording studio, Wynonna Judd was recording a song. Thomas then told a reporter that Selena came in asking if she could cook Judd dinner as well. When asked about Selena's personality, Thomas replied that Selena always respected his work and decisions, and that she was a team player." Not sure that this is entirely relevant to this article.
 * "Among most played song" - not sure that this is an award, can someone check it? I can imagine it as "Most Played Song award.
 * "Selena's vocal range spans four octaves one-lined with music notes F#3-A4," Not sure where this is going either, her vocal range cannot be one-lined.
 * "wrote a biographical book based on Jennifer Lopez and Adult Contemporary" - something seems missing between "Loppez" and "and".
 * "The song also featured on Greatest Love Songs of the 90's." - what is this? a book? magazine? album?
 * "Byrne recorded his vocals to the song in his hometown in New York, while Selena recorded the rest of the song" - the rest of the song or the rest of the vocals?
 * "who should be attending school. " - I thought IMDB refs were not acceptable?
 * "she was bit by a vampire" - is this someones translation? If it is then it should be corrected to "she was bit ten by a vampire" - if not then it needs to be "she was bit [sic] by a vampire" so that people do not try and correct it.
 * "while Selena's Spanish verse stood apparent" - not sure what this means at all.


 * Release
 * "knocking off the Pocahontas (1995) soundtrack and Michael Jackson from the top spot" - how can they both have been on the top spot?


 * Singles
 * ""El Toro Relajo" became the first single off Dreaming of You to be released in Mexico" - when? is the following date the date they were both released?


 * Commercial performance
 * "Eventually Selena became the first recording artist to place five Spanish-language albums simultaneously on the Billboard 200." This has nothing to do with this album though, does it?
 * "Musicland, the nation's largest chain," - which nation?
 * "In the week following its release, Dreaming of You sold 120,000 copies followed by 40,000 copies." - what exactly does this mean? Is this a total of 160,000 in the first week?


 * Chart performance
 * ""Dreaming of You" also debuted at number one on the Billboard 200 for two weeks," - needs a check that this is the single being talked about. Everything in that paragraph, both before and after it, is talking about the album.


 * Critical response
 * "Stephen Erlewine, who reviewed the album," - reviewed it for who?
 * "captured Selena stepping from her Tejano roots into today's world of pop" -another direct copyvio.
 * Diatonic set theory has nothing to do with these tracks; Rothenberg proprietary is about coherence of the music, while the article quoted is talking about coherence by the listener - in other words, whether the listener can tell what she is singing, or can hear what she is singing.
 * I have removed the copyvios from the first four paragraphs but someone else will have to do the last three paragraphs, as I cannot give the amount of time needed. I have spent some two hours on that section alone trying to identify and fix the copyvios.

Use of styles
 * Artwork
 * "The styles around Selena illustrate as if she were an angel in the stars, which also describes how the song "Dreaming of You" is mainly about." - this seems like WP:OR, needs a ref.
 * "the artwork is seen entirely similar to the main album, unlike the main album." - not sure what this is trying to say. How can the main album be unlike the main album?


 * General
 * There seems to be a few WP:COPYVIO]] and WP:PLAGIARISM in the "Musical style and lyrics" and "Critical response" sections. For example:
 * The article says: "is an energetic, dark and mysterious song that combines elements of the rumba flamenca with rock and R&B undertones"
 * Reference text is: "is an energetic, dark and mysterious song that combines elements of the rumba flamenca with rock, a pair of R&B flavored tunes"
 * This one was a direct copyvio from the billboard article:


 * ... captured Selena stepping from her Tejano roots into today's world of pop. p. 41
 * This one was a whole paragraph taken straight out of the article:


 * "There are some obvious signs of superstardom; an original song written by Diane Warren (not one of Warren's more lyrical ones, however), the inevitable showcase ballads and of course the most obvious one: Trey Lorenz in the background of the first track. "I Could Fall In Love" is pop with a refreshing Tejano lacing, proving Amy Tan's words that "it's hip to be ethnic"
 * These need to have quotation marks or be paraphrased so that they are not copyvio. In fact, the amount of work I have had to do to find and fix these quotation errors is ridiculous! In an article I had not worked on I would have marked it as "Copvio" with the copyvio template and reported it for copyvios - please make sure that all the others are fixed.


 * IMDB is not a reliable source WP:RS
 * A lead-single is the first off the album, there are only rare circumstances when two can be called the lead-single. THis is when they are released together on the same day, usually at the same time. In the article the two singles described as lead singles were released months apart. The double single, released two weeks after the lead-single, cannot be described as a lead either.
 * "Anglo pop" - is a term that is relative to non-English speakers (Anglo pop being a neologism), this is the English wikipedia, so I find it strange that this should be present as the term here would just be "pop". Also it does not appear to be linked to anything.
 * MoS recommends that linking within quotes is not recommended. WP:QUOTES "Items within quotations should not generally be linked; instead, consider placing the relevant links in the surrounding text or in the "See also" section of the article."


 * Thanks for copy-editing! Take care and enjoy, AJona1992 (talk) 21:43, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "In an interview, Selena said was intimidated by" shouldn't it be "she was intimidated..."? AJona1992 (talk) 21:53, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes it should, Sorry about that :¬) Chaosdruid (talk) 03:34, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, Copyedit finished. If there are any outstanding problems, or things I have missed by all means get in touch with me. Make sure that you check for any further copyvios, as it will surely fail GA and FA if there are any left in there. Chaosdruid (talk) 03:34, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your copyediting :) AJona1992 (talk) 00:12, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Some review notes
I was asked to take a look at this article; here are some comments.
 * I looked at the copyediting done in August; this significantly improved the article but I think the writing is still short of FA standards, though it might pass GA. A couple of examples:
 * Repetition of phrase in consecutive sentences: "... he wanted his children to be the first artists to sign with EMI Latin. Before signing with EMI Latin Records in 1989 ... "
 * "By 1993 Selena had won a Grammy Award for Selena Live! (1993), become a recipient of several accolades, ..., and expanding the "Tejano Movement" across the United States": should be "expanded".
 * "Highly because, SBK knew what they were doing for a crossover event": it's not clear what this is intended to mean, but "highly" can't be used to modify "because" in that way.
 * I appreciate that you took the time to get someone from the guild of copyeditors to do some work on the article, and it really did help, but it does need more work, I'm afraid. Those examples are all from the first few paragraphs; there are others throughout the article.
 * I haven't scanned all the sources, but the ones I looked at seem OK to me. You're using primary sources to source some information; I think that's OK in some cases, but for example  is used to source the statement that the Belgian release had a given radio add date and was released on CD.  I don't see that information in the page that came up; is it sourced by one of the other sources you provide there?  If I were reviewing this for FAC I would want to check that the information in those tables really is provided by those sources.
 * That source if from Belgium iTunes. Its to provide that DOY was released (digitally) in that country. Is that source ok for that?
 * I think it's OK for that purpose, but you also show a radio add date of July 18, 1995 for all countries, and I'm not sure where that's sourced from. It doesn't seem to be from the individual iTunes links. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 00:38, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll remove the unsourced dates. Jona yo!  Selena 4 ever  16:46, 28 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The sections seem broadly right to me. I don't usually work on album articles, but I reviewed Maya (M.I.A. album) a while back so I compared it to that and I see no big discrepancies.
 * I would recommend asking someone who has worked on an album article that has achieved FA status to take a look. If you offer to help out with an article they're working on that can encourage cooperation; just something to consider.
 * The article contains a remarkable amount of detail. I tend to like adding details to articles, but you are likely to find some pushback for some of the more esoteric information.  For example, the personnel section contains the names of assistant engineers, translators, and art directors -- are these really of interest to readers looking for information about the album?  Similarly, the critical response section is exhaustive; wouldn't a reader be better served by summarizing the reception, identifying the common points made by most reviewers, giving a couple of examples, and perhaps including the most prestigious sources such as the LA Times and Entertainment Weekly?
 * Are you suggesting me to remove the assistant engineers, translators and art directors? Well I was thinking about creating Dreaming of You in popular culture where I can add all the reviews (remove most from this article) and also add covers from popular artists. What do you think?
 * I would think you could remove some of the engineers (etc.); I don't know much about music production but I imagine some of those roles are significant and others less so. It should probably be trimmed to the important roles.  This is another place where you could use advice from an editor who works on music articles. As for the idea of an "in popular culture" article: I'm not a fan of those myself, because it's very difficult to determine what sort of information is notable enough to be mentioned in them.  It's very easy for those articles to end up as a magnet for uninteresting and non-notable trivia.  It can be done; see Jane Austen in popular culture for an example.  A list of covers is reasonable; how about an article List of covers of Selena songs or something like that?  I certainly wouldn't try to include every review you can find -- writing an article is a process of finding, filtering, and organizing; if you don't filter down to what is genuinely useful to the reader you make the reader do extra work.  This is something that opinions vary on, though, so you might take your lead from other successful articles. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 00:38, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Alright I'll trimmed the fat :) Thanks, Jona yo!  Selena 4 ever  16:46, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Overall I'd say you have the right material in here, and are probably close to or at GA pass level already, though some of the copyediting issues might need to be fixed first. For FA I think the copyediting would definitely cause a fail at the moment; the level of detail might do so too, though that's more of a judgement call. I hope this is helpful -- let me know if you have more questions. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:11, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not expert on the use of copyrighted audio files; I've seen it done successfully but I think you might need to strengthen the fair use rationale or include more specific discussion of the songs' style. At the moment I think a reader can learn what Selena sounds like on this album by listening to one of the clips, and that's probably justifiable, but I don't think you've got a good specific reason to include the second and third clips yet.  Again, I think someone who has worked on this sort of article elsewhere can help you out here.
 * I saw the notes from the copyeditor on copyvio concerns; I have not checked for that, but it would be a serious issue, so do be careful there.
 * some of your helpful tips. I will work on removing copyvios from the critical reception section and write them in my own words. I will also work on the others during the weekend or next week. I have also contacted a user who worked on album articles that are FA status per your request. Thanks for this review! Jona yo!  Selena 4 ever  16:57, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. The user you contacted is very good, but not very active; if he doesn't respond you might try a couple of others -- there are some very good music editors around.  Good luck! Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 17:26, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Alright, well if he doesn't then I'll ask you for some very good users :) btw did you read the above reply comments? Thanks, Jona yo!  Selena 4 ever  17:36, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've replied to them above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:38, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks again, Jona yo!  Selena 4 ever  16:46, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I have now removed all copyvios in the critical reception section, I also removed a lot of reviews and moved some of them in the article body where it is best at. I also removed fancrut and non-encyclopedic text from the musical styles section. I hope this helps :) Best, Jona yo!  Selena 4 ever  16:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Article comment
If I may, I'd like to give a general comment about the article. I haven't read all of it, but there is a structural issue that could be improved. The intro is exhausting; it's way too long and overly detailed. Manual_of_Style/Lead_section gives a guideline of how long the intro of an article should be, based on the article's length. For articles with fewer than 15,000 characters, you need one or two paragraphs in the intro; 15,000–30,000 characters should have two or three paragraphs in the lede, and articles with more than 30,000 characters should have an intro that is three or four paragraphs long. This article is 17,500 words. I don't think we need the chart placements of all the album's singles, as well as information about Janet Jackson and how much Jackson's album sold. That's just unnecessary. Oran e  (talk)  06:40, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There are other stylistic issues that could be improved: I was reading the section "Musical style and lyrics", and most of the content there was about chart placements and awards won. I thought this section was only supposed to discuss the music. Why not move the airplay and charting info to the "singles" section of the article? Also, why is "commercial performance" distinguished from "chart performance"? Oran e   (talk)  06:50, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Me again :) Also, as per the fair use rationale, you cannot have the sound sample in the "singles" section. The fair use rationale states "The section of music used is discussed in the article in relation to the song's lyrics, musical and vocal style, and also contains part of the song's chorus." This is not discussed in the section that the sample is located, and the caption tot he sample does not even make mention of the music or lyrics. Oran e   (talk)  06:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Why does the information in "release" duplicate info that should be in the the "chart/commercial performance" section?
 * This article lacks structural cohesion. Oran e   (talk)  06:58, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for commenting, I'll address these issues once the copyedit is complete. Thanks again for your helpful tips and suggestions :) Best, Jona yo!  Selena 4 ever  12:00, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have all the issues presented. Are there any imperfections that could be spotted? Thanks,  Jona yo!  Selena 4 ever  15:06, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You did a really good job. Just a few notes: the intro still feature four paragraphs, instead of the recommended three, as per my initial comment above. The first and second paragraphs of the intro are great; the third and fourth can be condensed into one. One thing you have to remember is that chart placements and sales etc are secondary. The album, its motivation and inspiration are most important. So you don't need to spend much time listing the album's sales and chart success in the intro.
 * For the caption in the sound sample boxes, you need to comment on what the audio samples add to the article and its discussion of the album's music. Right now, you're only discussing chart placements. You need to use the sound samples appropriately in order to justify them as fair use in the article.
 * Lastly, for the credits and personnel section, you should use a dash to separate the names from their contribution to the album (as in "Selena – vocals") and not "Selena (vocals)".  Oran e   (talk)  03:04, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I trimmed the lead and removed the peak positions for the singles in the lead, I left that DOY debuted at number-one on Billboard 200 and it being the second highest debut and second fastest selling album by a female artist, if that's ok? I'm not really good with the non-free rationals, can you help me with that? Thanks and best, Jona yo!  Selena 4 ever  03:36, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Here is an example of a proper fair use rational. You just need to write what the samples contribute to the article, as discussed in the "Musical style and lyrics" section. But what I was specifically talking about was the actual caption that you use in the article. For example, in the audio box for "Dreaming of You", the caption reads "One of Selena's English songs, "Dreaming of You peaked at number 21 in the Billboard charts. 34 second sample." But for fair use of the sample to be justified, you need to change that to something like "Dreaming of You" is about a lonely and depressed woman in her room at night, who dreams endlessly of being with her boyfriend. Written by Franne Golde and Tom Snow, the song features piano and guitar as its foundation, as well as wind chimes and funk-influenced bass instrumentation." This would indicate to the readers that the sample is used to enhance the discussion of music, and not just randomly placed in the article. Make sense? Oran e   (talk)  04:23, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes now I understand! Thanks, will get on it. Best, Jona yo!  Selena 4 ever  13:54, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed "Only Love" as it violated WP:SAMPLE plus it was requested on the peer review. Best, Jona yo!  Selena 4 ever  15:03, 10 November 2011 (UTC)