Talk:Drifting (motorsport)/Archive 1

Coverage
Under coverage, Drift & RWD Sport Magazine seems to have been deleted before, even though it is the only print and digital magazine listed (all the others are web sites and/or galleries). I've added it again just because I think it's representative of the original entry.

Coverage, again...
What happend to Driftlive.com? It's seems to be the only site with consistant up-to-date coverage? Yet again EverythingDrift.com seems to be coming back in full swing!!

orginal statement
I see nothing wrong with the definition; it thoroughly explains the "sport" of drift racing and its possible implications on society.
 * Please read NPOV. --fvw *  20:00, 2005 Jan 12 (UTC)

ah..
I think this page needs to be edited by someone more knowledgeable... I added a few things but they're not enough.

Japanese names
What's the Wikipedia standard for Japanese personal names? Surname first or last? I couldn't find a definitive answer. This article has a random mixture of both; if someone can point me towards a definitive statement, I'll make this article consistent. Pbattley 23:45, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Surnames are always first Willirennen 14:38 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Merging with new contents
This was in the drift article, and have a merge tag suggesting that should be merged with this page. Now drift is a disambiguation page, so I'm moving that contents here:


 * Drifting is a driving technique in which the driver forces the car to oversteer and tries (through use of engine torque, the handbrake and the pendulum effect) to keep the rear end of the car sliding (and the car itself sideways) for as long as possible.


 * This technique has evolved from the driving style of the great rally drivers of the '60s and '70s, who deliberately caused their cars to oversteer before the entrance of a bend ("Scandinavian Flick" technique), to help them carry more speed through corners.


 * During the early 1990s, Japanese street racers started racing on deserted mountain roads, to avoid police. They experimented with oversteer and the pendulum effect, and soon became masters of the 'drifting' technique.


 * Within a short period of time, 'drifting' became popular around the world, promoted not only by word of mouth but also by various Japanese videos (e.g. the 'Option' videos), showing this technique at its finest. Today, 'drift' races are held in most first-world countries, where drivers must keep their cars sideways for the whole length of a racetrack while retaining relatively high speeds and total vehicle control.


 * Drifting is very difficult to master, and completely different from the traditional track racing styles. Most racers use rear-wheel-drive cars, which they consider more balanced.


 * Popular cars for drifting are : Nissan 200SX (AKA: 240SX/180SX/Silvia), Toyota AE86 (Corolla/Levin/Trueno), Nissan Skyline, Mazda RX-7.

Anyone wanting to do the merge? --surueña 14:48:23, 2005-08-31 (UTC)

Gotcha
Article was pretty good, I cleaned up a little bit of the content and added some where I thought appropriate... I have been drifting for a while here in japan, so I wrote what I know from personal experience. I am able to comment a lot on technique...

I killed the curb-jump technique thing... That is not a technique in anyone's book, you will end up "curb jumping" to the mechanic to fix broken suspension parts/frame/wheel.

even dirt drop is a little bit iffy.... most people will spin when they hit the dirt, it is rarely used as an ability to gain wheelspin... if people hit it they simply overran the edge of the track, or are going for a bigger wider drift. They have loooooong been wheelspinning by the time they hit it.

--Kantoking 16:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

KAZAAAAAAMAAA!!!!
I added the "Fun Facts" section. Feel free to add or delete at any time.

Do bear in mind, I have moved all facts relating to D1 Grand Prix to its own page where it belongs, Willirennen 18:48 09.02.2006 (UTC)

Engine overheating
This article says "Overheating can be a problem if you have a turbo because of the angle of the car, not much air passes through the intercooler."

To me, this does not make sense. It sounds like someone who does not understand how their car works made this up. As I understand it, the intercooler infact has nothing to do with cooling your engine, but is infact there to cool air as it before it enters the turbo to increase the air density (since it is at a lower temp) and consequently increase the amount of air entering the cylinder, thus improving the air/fuel mix and improving performance. Please let me know what you think, but I very much believe this sentence should be removed, as the intercooler is not associated with engine cooling. 144.131.192.62 10:55, 6 October 2005 (UTC)AcidRain


 * As with regards to the statement, it is false. Intercoolers do not cool the engine, they increase the power as stated by AcidRain.  However, the fact that not much air passes through the intercoolers as a result of drifting still remains true.  By the way, what happened to the picture of Ueo's car? --RESuperG 00:20, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the author confused "intercooler" with "radiator". It seems many of the authors of this page have english as their second (or third) language, judging by the overall grammer (sorry, had this article confused with Touge 05:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)). Reduced airflow through the radiator may indeed lead to overheating in a high-output car at wide-open throttle and under boost. TRW 01:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * lol. The intercooler cools air coming from the turbo to the engine, not the other way around. That air being cooled allows the turbo to run at higher boost. Remember that a turbo is cramming air. When you compress air, it gets hotter. (same energy in less volume). If the car is moving sideways and the turbo is producing high boost (high temperatures) when the intercooler can't keep up, the car will overheat. Then again, I don't really think this information even matters or that it makes that much of a difference that the car is sideways. If the driver had a brain he would have tuned his car to drifting in the first place, so the boost wouldn't be so high that the reduced airflow through the intercooler would make the car overheat. --Mkt90 02:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Can someone confirm this? I had always believed that compressed air was cooler, not the other way around as user Mkt90 just stated. Cirilobeto 07:46, 2006-08-12


 * Compressing air increases its temperature. (If it is then allowed to cool to ambient, then released, it cools as it expands, which might have given you that impression.)  Anyway read Combined gas law RB30DE 23:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Overheating is a potential problem on all drift cars (not just turbo). The engines are bouncing off the limiter, and the car speed does not match the drive wheel speed, so yeah airflow is a problem.  Hence oil coolers are often used, and V-mount intercooler/radiator.  Even then, a lot of drift cars can only do a couple of laps before the oil is sizzling, and they need to come in for a rest. RB30DE 20:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't relate to the article, but I Partialy solved the problem by Adding some angled scoops and Steel Mesh sections on the hood, and putting some larger "Speed holes" on the side of the car than normal, and using hoses to make sure the air is getting through into the engine bay - Along with installing Oil coolers and the rest of the usual gear - It doesn't do massive amount of difference, but it does help keep the engine cooler, and I have less downtime needed to let everything cool down - But when I'm not in competition, I just practice with the hood off. Churba 11:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Separate enties for D1GP and FD
I am planning to dive the D1GP and Formula D, its own entry, not to mention the drivers to make the page look tidier and they do deserve their own entries.

American stock-car roots?
Someone backstop me on this, and I certainly don't want to trivialize the Japanese influence on this sport, but I can recall hearing old-timers talk about "drifting" (and before you start, no, they were not talking about DRAFTING. I - and they - know the difference) in American dirt-track stock racing back in the '50's.  I'm going to try to track down some hard-evidence references to this. But I know from old films of races at the time that full-size stockers, not just rally drivers, would drift their cars around the old dirt ovals back as early as the '50's - of course, by the time NASCAR became reputable and had moved onto pavement, drivers were driving the line instead of drifting - and they were referring to it by that name as well.

If someone has references, please feel free to go ahead and jump in on this, and if I can find any references, I'll post them for a possible article mod.

L. Greenway Macon, GA


 * American Stock Car Roots? Ummmm NO... (anon)

I added a brief reference to this in the article. A distinction is necessary between the more general term "drift", which is basically synonymous with "oversteer"; and the specific sport of competitive drifting, which is the topic of the article. A car in the context of any motorsport may "drift" in your usage of the word, but this article is about the events, people, cars, culture, and places involved in drifting as a sport unto itself, which originated in Japan in the past few decades.

Perhaps it would be worth a note that car enthusiasts from every culture have enjoyed sliding their cars sideways for the thrill or speed of it, but the Japanese were the first to organize this activity into a sport with rules.

AKADriver 19:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Oversteer is the condition where the rear wheels lose traction and the car turns more sharply than the steering inputs alone would cause. This term applies whether it is intentional or not. Opposite lock or drifting is the intentional use of this technique. "Drifting" is the "sport" (sic) of doing this for show.

Perhaps we should rename Opposite lock to "Drift (motorsport technique)" and reference it here with a clarification blurb, since noone seems to refer to the technique as Opposite lock other than the original author of that article.

TRW 01:47, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd agree to that. "Opposite lock" seems to more commonly only refer to the state of the steering gear while drifting, not an alternate name for drifting.


 * Also, Drifting does meet the qualifications for a "sport", much like other judged sports such as boxing or freestyle BMX. It is not, however, "racing", which is why I've tried to correct references to "drift racing" to read "drifting".  (anon)


 * Technically oversteer is when the slip angle of the rear wheels is greater than the slip angle of the front wheels. That can be a stable or unstable condition, and does not necessarily involve opposite lock, or loss of traction.  Drifting necessitates oversteer, but oversteer in no way implies drifting.  Opposite lock is when the front wheels are pointed (relative to the car centre line) in the opposite direction of the turn. RB30DE 01:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

In the old days, before radial tires, we used to call drifting "turning a corner". (it's a joke, just not a good one). Gzuckier 16:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC) In my old coot's opinion, the young drifting fans would enjoy catching a dirt track race on ESPN, like the World of Outlaws last week. Forget having two cars on the track, put a dozen on and have them trying to pass each other.Gzuckier 16:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Little changes
Made some minor changes in reference to the irish drifting scene, inclusion in list of profeesional series, inclusion of more popular irish car choices, change of irish drift series name, and irish drifting website didn't add anything else.

Jumps?
Can anyone confirm "jumps" on Irohazaka? Sounds like Initial D fantasy to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spitzfan (talk • contribs)

Yeah...pure fiction. I doubt anybody would be crazy enough to actually DO that...its fiction just like Takumi's "rail drop" and his Trueno's "racing engine"...lots of stuff in Initial D is made up... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.196.33.202 (talk • contribs)


 * Takumi's racing engine stuff is not made up, its a Group A Touring Car spec sourced from a AE111, seen from the recent edition of Banzai magazine was the Hasselgren Engineering AE86 from a Formula Atlantic racer with the same power output as Takumi's car...so that shows it does exist. Willirennen 15.10 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Man, no one signs comments anymore. But really that stuff is not 100% fictional. Although insanely rare, taking "jumps" and cutting over/through gutters has been known to happen, from what I can tell in both Japanese and American "street racing". They definitely do not warrant mention in an article though without correct citation. I have a couple videos, one from BMI and another from a home movie I think that show examples or a gutter/shoulder drop technique.-- Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk 01:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, hey, hey... there ought to be mention that Intial D somewhat informally shows Keiichi Tsuchiya's backroads life story. It's been mentioned that Takumi even resembles his teenage character. Don't take it from me. Take it from | Keiichi Tsuchiya Colonel Marksman 16:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Keiichi Tsuchiya has shown the "gutter drop" technique in one of the BMI videos I downloaded called "The Touge." Aspects in Initial D are exaggerated like the amount of time one corner actually lasts. That is done for dramatic purposes but many of the discussions, particularly in 4th Stage, talk about aspects of race that are probable. As for the Jumps in Irohazaka, it's probable that someone can do that but there is a high risk that performing the jump will damage the car. Also, you'd have to angle the car in such a way as to not slam straight into the guardrail when you land. Another danger added to landing is that the car would have a high chance of swerving out of control. --Lonewolf26X 23:35, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Plagiarism
The history section seems to be copied from another web page: http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/ISEO-rgbtcspd/reviews/20031028/grand_prix.html?page=2 -- Wouter de Vries 11:00, 7 may 2006 and this page to

http://d1gp.com.my/site/showthread.php?t=15

Rear-Engine
It might be noted that some people consider rear engined cars (Porches mainly) to be the most natural drifters. The pendulum effect works to great advantage in this configuration, and the cars tend towards throttle-off oversteer or drift. So while most traditional front engined cars must be "forced" to drift, this is not the case with the natural drifting of the rear-engined drive-train configuration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.236.199.210 (talk • contribs)


 * This is also true to a lesser extent of mid-engine vehicles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.236.199.210 (talk • contribs)


 * As soon as you said "some people" you doomed the notion of this making it into the article. weasel words cause way more problems than they solve.  Your assertations are all completely OR and opinion as well.  cars with engines behind the center of gravity do have a tendency to oversteer, but that does not make it any easier or harder to drift.  Oversteer is not automatically drift.    It just created a different way to handle it.-- Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk 03:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Re: RR cars - This is a bizarre statement, the natural tendency of rear engine cars is to snap oversteer. It takes a very experienced drifter to be able to control one.  Mid-engine cars can have the same vice, albeit to a lesser degree.  Watch "The Drift Bible".  RB30DE 20:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

FWD Drift
Might I ask why my source-cited FWD drift technique was removed? Colonel Marksman 18:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * "lift off" or "lift throttle" are far more common names for that technique. I'll add back in that name, since it is sourced.  At some point, vandals or inexperienced editors stripped a lot of the links and sources from this article. &mdash; AKADriver  &#x260E;  16:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The FWD Drift debate - I'm not taking a particular position, but I will point out that the definition of drifting in the opening paragraph - "When the rear wheels are slipping at a greater angle than the front wheels, the car is drifting" - clearly can include FWD cars. It's inconsistent to then later say FWD cars can't drift. So for internal consistency, either the definition or the later claim should be modified. I would agree with the statement that FWD cars can't link corners, but they can certainly achieve higher slip angles on the rear wheels than the front. RB30DE 22:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree that FWD cars can't link corners - As it is something I do Quite Regularly. What is true, however, is that it is a particularly hard skill to master, as it involves some extremely precise pedal work, along with some fast and precise weight shifts, and timed just right - but once you have learned and mastered the skill, it becomes almost second nature. Churba 11:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That's right. Those who say it can't be done just don't know how to do it. Crabapplecove 21:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I have this distinct feeling you're taking the piss. Oh well, Jimmy crack corn. Churba 17:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

opposite lock at start
I think this statement is untrue, the purpose of drifting is not to achieve opposite lock. I have watched many perfected and unperfected drifts and the necessity of opposite lock is to keep control. anyone can achieve opposite lock without drifting. Gonna edit that bit on the page unless someones replies with a decent argument. beastx 25/05/2006

Addition of vehicles with reference to ireland and uk.
Added a bit extra to list of vehicles used, it looks like ireland and uk were a bit neglected, someone should add some more about other european countries. beastx 25/05/2006

"such as the early Ford Escort (UK and Ireland)"

It's a little vague. Replace with "such as Mk I and mk II (Rear wheel drive model) Ford Escorts (UK and Ireland)"

Siranui 14:39, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Siranui

dirt drop
what the hell. I've never heard of a decent driver usibg the dirt in a rally to "drift" for the simple fact that you do slide but it is definetly less controllable. I think it should be removed. beastx 25/05/2006
 * It's demonstrated in Keiichi Tsuchiya's Drift Bible video. It stays. &mdash; AKADriver  &#x260E;  15:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC) woops, I just noticed someone edited to that WRC drivers do that.  That's no good at all.  Dirt drop is done on a paved course. &mdash; AKADriver  &#x260E;  22:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It may be, in effect, executed on non-paved courses as well.  If the dirt is packed extremely tightly, such as from grass roots and the like, it functions as pavement would to a lesser degree, and it could be argued that dropping into the looser dirt and mud around the "track" could still be used to this effect.  Its not really article-worthy though I just felt it was worth mentioning in this instance.--  Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 11:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

junk
I did a major cleanup on the "Cars" section. It was in clear disrepair and had numerous WP:NPOV, WP:OR, WP:WEASEL, and WP:CITE violations. Someone also removed the tags present on the article. This in itself was a malicious and from my witness, unexplained act. If we do not cite sources, especially on disputed statements, and even more importantly on admitedly disputed statements, wikipedia is as good a reference as the tabloid trash they sell at supermarket checkouts. This is the biggest flaw of the wiki design, and it is easily fixable, yet laziness and objectivity on the part of users frequently prevents this from happening. Well, it needs to stop.-- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 11:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, I have a reasonable selection of written & filmed materials so will go through, adding sources where I can. RB30DE 20:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You said what I was thinking, well done! Btw, I changed the spelling of oppisit to opposite (the correct spelling) --Joshuarooney2006 09:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Drifting Rules
The section "Drifting Today" is incorrect with regard to some aspects of how drifting is judged. Complicating this is the fact that the rules are slightly different in different countries. I would like to see the basic judging guidelines added, perhaps country by country, so long as it does not become too unwieldy. I will probably add a section to this effect, please add/correct as necessary. RB30DE 20:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Cars
A fairly hard critic deleted a couple of sections including the cars section. I could almost understand that response, but it'd be nicer to modify it. It's a bit of a wishy-washy section because in a sense, most FR cars could do something resembling drift if pushed, but it's not really useful to include every FR car. I put the D1 lists to try and de-weasel it, but it's clumsy. Anyone able to make it neater? There's a few cars I'd remove from the list, but can't be bothered, number one on the execution list - the Soarer. RB30DE 12:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Tabulated the lists. RB30DE 22:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

External Links (again)
Its actually in pretty good shape I must say. Pretty much every link there is valid and doesn't seem to violate external links guidelines. However, its too big nonetheless. Even if they're all legitimate they should probably be reduced to at least less than 10. Its not something to take lightly and just go do because as I've said, they're all pretty much valid. I'm going to prune it some and post my rationale for it here. If anyone disagrees heavily feel free to revert it but if you do so please post your reasons why. Thanks. -- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 22:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Pruning: First I would like to note that every site I removed was visited by myself first.
 * D1 series: All of the local ones can be reached via the main site's front page. Also sorted this and the rest of the "official links" in order to place broader, more international groups up top and more region specific groups on the bottom.
 * Thought about removing the polish drifting site but didn't seeing as how http://pl.wikipedia.org doesn't have its own drifting page from what I see.
 * IDC Racing Was already in first section. Link no longer works. Sande411 23:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)sande411
 * Initial Drift Drifting clubs seem a little too small and specific to be posted.
 * PFD - One seems to be enough and the other has a working enlgish language page
 * D1GP Again Duplicate
 * Lookout Drift Seems relatively narrow-focused, non-notable, and not a very complete site.
 * eDRFT.com Up to date news on the industry with Tire Smoke for rumors as well as coverage from U.S. Australia and expanding to Europe and Japan in 07'

All Videos sites were removed. If people want that they can go to google. This sortof goes agains the external links policy anyways.

Same goes for the so called "grass-roots" sites. These fall under fansite rules and are generally unacceptable. I removed all but the most notable and seemingly most well constructed "coverage site"
 * Drift & RWD Sport Magazine Sites for print magazines generally considered commercial and not allowed.

-- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 14:45, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the print magazines: Drifting Magazine, a US publication, just folded last week. That leaves Drift & RWD Sport as the only remaining drift-related print magazine in the States. I believe it's non-profit too (enthusiast based), but not 100% on that one. In either case, after checking various other motorsports and sports wiki entries (including some locked ones), print magazines are considered informational sources and follow the rules. That would be like leaving Transworld out of a skateboarding entry.

I hardly see the use of keep IDC Racing as they are "sanctioned Practice Events and Demo's" and not a professional series.

Who keeps adding in "taking in"?
This is the name of the motorcycle technique, not the car technique. I understand kansei, as well as lift-lift off (I'm referencing formula D judges and the drift bible here) whoever keeps adding it in, just note that it is a motorcycle thing and I'll stop deleting it.


 * It's sourced and verifiable as a name for the car technique. Not all that common, I'll agree. &mdash; AKADriver &#x260E; 00:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

this page is starting to be a joke
Anytime someone with accurate information adds it into the article, someone reverts it back. This article is littered with misinformation in nearly every paragraph. It is clear that it is written and controlled by someone who doesn't actually drift, nor has accurate information on its history. I would love to hear an explaination. I say those who actually drift and are active in the sport, start our own page to more accurately portray what drifting really is for Wikipedia. You can find me at ziptied.com, I've been drifting since I moved to Tokyo 7 years ago and own/operate the website which is home to most of the Formula D competitors as well as nearly every drift event organizer in the US. We have a wealth of good information to contribute to this article, yet someone keeps deleting it. Society mike 22:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Specifically what information are you referring to? So far, you appear only to have added a link to a forum, which is not appropriate for an article body. diff1 diff2  No-one controls the page.  If you have information to contribute, please do.  RB30DE 07:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Motorsport Enthusiast Paragraph
"Drifting itself is often frowned upon by professional motorsport enthusiasts as they feel many aspects of the sport are farcical such as biased judging, inexperienced participants, over-enthusiastic supporters (fanboys) and even the concept of drifting itself."

This is POV and unsourced. While it may be true, I think the ideas need to be attributed to someone. RB30DE 01:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Other observations
Just general tidying up. Any objections to the changes suggested below:

"In the United Kingdom, one of its first drift contests was hosted in 2002 by the OPT Drift Club"

I would rephrase this: "One of the first drifting competitions in Europe was hosted in 2002 by the OPT drift club at Turweston..."

"Sometimes the judges cannot agree, or cannot decide, or the crowd violently disagrees with the judge's decision. "

Colourful description, rather than factual. I have yet to see a D1 crowd resort to violence! How about: "Or a crowd vocally disagrees with the judge's decision"

"In such cases more passes may be run until a winner is produced."

Add "In the event of apparently close or tied runs, crowds often demonstrate their desire for another run with chants of 'one more time'"

"Drifting techniques"

Surely this should be 'Techniques for inducing drift'?

"or Scandinavian flick[9]"

This is not what a Scandinavian flick is (At least as I've always been taught!) and reference to it here needs to be removed. A Scandanavian flick does involve angling the vehicle away from the apex, but there the similarity ends, as during a Scandinavian flick, one then locks the wheels and engages the clutch to maintain a straight slide, steers into the apex and then releases the brakes and clutch to cause an immediate and sharp turn.

"A proper mechanical limited slip differential (LSD) is essential for drifting. Open diffs and viscous diffs cannot be controlled during a sustained slide."

Should read "is almost essentail" as drifting is not technically impossible without a mechanical LSD: a good viscous LSD works, but is simply inferior.

"Because of the large sideways forces, the driver must be retained firmly by a bucket seat, and preferably five point harness."

Again: It's not essential per se. Should read "Because of the large sideways forces, drivers find it preferable to be retained firmly by a bucket seat, and five point harness."

Also add to the paragraph: "Many drivers favour additional gauges to monitor such things as boost levels, oil, intake and coolant temperatures"

Addition to the 'body' section:

"Due to the nature of the hobby, drift cars are typically involved in many minor accidents. Thus, those involved with the sport tend to avoid expensive or easily damaged body kits and custom paintwork. Typically drift cars will show signs of body damage: dents, cracked bumpers and applications of duct tape."

"Tires" "...On the back, hard-compound tires are used, quite often second-hand ones tend to end up in a cloud of smoke."

Colourful rather than factual. Just needs formalising.

"More advanced drivers require the most grip possible from all 4 tires."

Add: "...so as to retain control adequately during high speed drifts."

"However these tires are generally not available to the public, and only to drift teams at the moment."

Add: "...furthermore, they are not permitted in many competitions, as they are seen as giving an unfair advantage to teams with the funding to utilise them, as they are currently too expensive to be used by the amateur competitor."

And for the preservation of our sanity, can we either cite or remove the comments about the Civic winning the Willow Springs competition!

Siranui 14:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Siranui
 * I cited the bottom bit as I wrote that from a magazine I still own and made changes to the top bit. Feel free to make changes as you know what the Edit button is for. Willirennen 00:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I would prefer the suggestions to be reviewed prior to me making changes to the main page. If nobody has a problem, I'll then go make them. Additionally, I really don't feel that a tuning magazine that you own is not a suitable source for Wikipedia. Firstly, it is a secondary source itself, and the only verification of it that we have is yourself (making it a tertiary source and certainly not suitable for encyclopedic inclusion). We have no way to verify the source independantly, and there seems no other reference to it anywhere on the Net (except references stemming from this Wiki entry). I'm not saying that you are a liar, merely pointing out that it would be amazingly bad form for the article to contain such intangable information: It would be the equivelant of dictionaries including the word 'qrhweongfksd' based on the fact that I tell them that I have a letter from the Queen of England containing the word. Additionally, the source itself is very questionable as regards reliability: tuning magazines habitually fail to get their facts straight. Maybe if we could get some more details from Option? 87.112.83.224 11:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)Siranui


 * The preferred source for Wikipedia is a secondary source. The reference of a secondary source in the article by an editor does not make it a tertiary source.  A tuning magazine he owns is the perfect type of source for this article, if he's referenced it correctly.  There are not many "scientists, scholars and researchers" working in the field of drifting, so the best we've got is magazines, books, & DVDs.  By your interpretation, none of the other references on this page are valid, and might as well be deleted.  A failed google search does not invalidate a reference. Have a read of WP:V and WP:RS.  Your dictionary example would come under WP:PN.  If you think it's an extraordinary claim (a FF(?) Civic does seem odd) that requires extraordinary proof, that's quite another matter, but there's nothing wrong with the source in and of itself.  However if Willirennen put a scan of the Civic victory on photobucket I'd certainly be interested to see it.  RB30DE 14:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * A couple of months later, and the Source has not been confirmed by anyone. Also, the term 'won the race' I feel also undermines the validity of the comment, seeing how drifting is not a race. And of course, it is an extraordinary claim that I think needs verification from multiple sources. We are discussing a Subscript textlarge motorsport event here, that it seems only one magazine covered, and nobody actually attended! I personally don't credit tuning magazines as being an acceptable source in isolation (Have you ever read Max Power... their adherance to facts is negligable). I'll give it a week, then delete the relevant section, unless anyone can come up with a good reason not to. siranui 13:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I added all but one as I am not that great at that form of editing from the above. Willirennen 14:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah pretty reasonable changes, an improvement. Although - "Drifting techniques" Surely this should be Techniques for inducing drift? - I don't understand this change.  I think the original is preferable - shorter, direct.  The new version sounds like management speak to me.  YMMV.  RB30DE 22:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Simply because they are not drifting techniques. They are simply a list of methods for starting a drift, so it is very incorrect to label them as drifting techniques. 'Drifting technique' consists of pilling on opposite lock and balancing the controls of the vehicle in a manner that maintains the drift, the angle and keeps you going in the right direction! 87.112.83.224 11:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)Siranui


 * Seems pedantic. I don't think it's reasonable to make such a sharp distinction between the beginning and the middle of an action.  They are drifting techniques.  I like how you removed the absolutes from other paragraphs, but this seems to be in contrast to that.  Oh well.  RB30DE 14:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I added the link DriftBasic.com for a very important reason. All the links are valid, but organizations such as D1 or Formula D are for the pros. What about the amature drifters out there that make up the core of the drifting scene? Drift Basic is constantly updating info and linking to actual events that are happening nationwide. I think its important to have a link to a site that informs me about events in my area so I have a source to know about events. The first time I read the drifting article, I was like, thats great, but how can I try this for myself and where are events and gatherings where I live? RearWheelPower 05:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia isn't a clearinghouse of links. There are hundreds of similar websites for amateur drifting events.  Also, no offense, but this being your only edit reeks of pimping your own website. &mdash; AKADriver &#x260E; 13:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand that wikipedia isnt a link portal, but dont you see my point? Its one of my friends sites and I think it has the right to be there. If its not Drift Basic, at least let it be another similar site that has news on amature events. People coming to this are most likely US or Canadians. Why would they care about Prodrift Ireland or French drifting? Those are the types of links that should be removed. RearWheelPower 14:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see your point. "I think its important to have a link to a site that informs me about events in my area so I have a source to know about events." - I think that's totally irrelevant to wikipedia.  Also WP:EL "...You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent..." I agree that if a link is not in English, it should probably be removed.  RB30DE 22:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Let me sum it up like this: If I was new to the concept of drifting, I would google it, and this article would be the second link I see. After reading it, if I liked the concept I would want to try to do it as well (start drifting). Well, looking at the links here, I would find only proffesional events. If links to websites such as driftlive, driftbasic, drift411, etc were added, I would be able to find out about drifting events that I actually could drift in. "Also WP:EL "...You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent..."" - Again, It just a friends site, and I dont represent it. I just added it because I think its the best of the ones I know. Like I said: "If its not Drift Basic, at least let it be another similar site that has news on amature events." RearWheelPower 04:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

FIA Sanctioning
Surely the reason that it's not FIA sanctioned because it isn't a form of racing? All other ones are. Duke toaster 10:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Books
I have removed the section on books since there does not appear to be any criteria for notability, and I could actually find little reliable information about the books. If someone would be able to show notability it would be nice. -- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 15:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Japan WikiProject Assessment
A nice long and detailed article. I do wish that the sport's influence on (and appearance in) popular culture/media were described more at length in paragraph form, rather than as simply a list of media in which it appears. This is a major theme/subject in anime and other forms of popular media these days - surely there is something to be said about this influence and popularity as a whole. LordAmeth 13:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The other way drifting was born.
In Japan, there is a lot of mountains. In fact about 75% of Japan's land is covered in mountains. So since the street racers were getting in huge trouble for racing in the city streets, they fleed to the mountains, or known as Touge's, to race. Since the mountain roads were very small and had tight corners, they had to find a new way to race. Thus drifting was born! They found different techniques to drift around the tight corners, most likely borrowing ideas from rally. In conclusion, there maybe other forms of drifting, but I think the sport drifting as we know of today (D1GP) was created by the street racers of Japan in the early 1970's.Leokun7 (talk) 00:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Diagram
This page could do with a digram showing force and velocity vectors. —Ben FrantzDale 19:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Reverse Lock Steering.svg|thumb|]]
 * I'm not a specialist in drifting, but what about this one from Opposite lock ? Yggdras (talk) 08:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Southern California
The current text re Southern California is:

"Southern California has embraced Drifting, and has been a forefront for the drift movement. It has many similar geological features as Japan, from industrial warehouse, many freeway on/off ramps, to shipping docks, and lastly various touge. The grass-root enthusiasts can be seen on a daily basis and are growing exponentially as well as notice from local law enforcement. It wont be long before we see creative response such as the high-grip patches and speed bumps on notorious drift spots."

This doesn't make much sense, but I don't know enough about the facts to correct it. Can someone who knows about it convert this into meaningful English?

80.229.220.14 (talk) 03:15, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

/translation
 * The cops in the Land of Fruits and Nuts are starting to crack down on those idjits who want to play their stoopit games on public streets and/or in traffic, endangering the lives of reasonable drivers with their hare-brained antics! 75.51.124.212 (talk) 03:17, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Japanese bias?
Drifting emerged from the Scandinavian rally racing scene, which is why all manouvres used in drifting have a 'scandinavian flick', or 'elchtest' style to them. This article is massively POV due to the popularity of 'drifting' that emerged from Tokyo Drift. Can someone NPOV clean this crap up please? A lot of it is even written in first person, it's possibly the worst article I've read here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.107.14.204 (talk) 11:27, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:BOLD, WP:RS, WP:V. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 06:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree the article is poorly written, but drifting did not emerge from rallying. Scandinavian flick is merely a technique that can be used in drifting. It's more suited to gravel roads, and drifting is predominantly on tarmac roads. I don't think the Japanese bias is unwarranted - the sport developed in Japan long before Tokyo Drift (I'm assuming you're referring to the movie) and the rest of the world embraced it. Drifting is about the showmanship of two cars competing on a short stretch; ralling is about a longer stage with one car on it, against the clock, and the art of drifting itself is not a part of the scoring or raison d'etre of rallying. Motorracer (talk) 04:02, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Weather?
This can be done at much, much lower speeds by utilizing hydroplaning as the main enabling agent by which the car loses grip with the road. A friend of a friend reports that the handbrake technique can be used in rainy weather to do an extremely tight u-turn with a FWD vehicle. Zaphraud (talk) 05:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

suspension section
the author(s) of this excerpt does not make it clear how this is relates to suspension. it is written very poorly and i consider it unnecessary and pointless until it is revised or completely rewritten. thus i will delete it entirely unless someone disagrees in which case if you feel it belongs back on the article you are more than welcome to paste it back but i implore such action be taken in conjunction with a major revision. thanks

"One of the most important dynamics that a properly tuned professional drift car will have is a high amount of 'dig' which is how much acceleration the drift car has coming out the apex of a corner while keeping the rear wheel speed much greater than that of the actual vehicle's positional speed. A high amount of dig will allow the car to spin its tires and maximize the amount of smoke, engine speed, and spectator/judge impact, while also maximizing the vehicles positional speed through a course. With all other variables held constant, a vehicle with more dig will pull away from a vehicle with less dig when the two are engaged in tandem competition.

Another important dynamic that drift cars look to increase is the rear tires' 'bite'. bite is how quickly the vehicle's rear tires regain traction after the throttle is closed and/or after the hand brake is released. A high amount of bite will allow the vehicle to change it's direction at a much higher rate, and thus increase the amount of snapiness and impact to both the judges and the spectators. It also will allow, in many cases, a much later apex on a drift course. A vehicle with a high amount of 'bite' can transition at a later time than a vehicle without. With all other variables held constant, a vehicle with less bite will not be able to follow a vehicle with a higher amount of bite without changing the driving line, losing points in tandem competition." --Hhn2002 (talk) 08:07, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

steering section
I've made the following changes to the steering section to be more clear and correct.

from: Increased steering angle often requires other modifications as at some point the tire or wheel will come in contact with other suspension pieces or the inner/outer fenders. to: In extreme cases increasing the steering angle may come to a point where the tire or wheel comes into contact with other suspension pieces or the inner/outer fenders; in which case additional modifications are required if such contacts are to be avoided. --Hhn2002 (talk) 08:07, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Edit coming soon
If someone could edit the "Techniques" section soon so it is no longer a how-to guide (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTHOWTO) that would be great... if someone else doesn't do it I will get to it eventually. Alumarine (talk) 00:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Moved a lot of stuff to Wikiversity and deleted irrelevant links. Motorracer (talk) 02:00, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Saudi Arabian Drifting
Right now there are a bunch of videos on YouTube showing what I guess is called "arab drifting." It appear to be exclusively FWD family sedans holding ridiculous drift angles on straight roads and weaving through traffic. I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it myself. I was wondering if anyone had any sources on this particular type of drifting so it could be added to the article. --Daniel J. Leivick 23:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * First, it would be hard pressed to call that drifting simply because they are FWD. FWD can't hold the adequate slip angle for a drift. Second, there are no sources for it, just a bunch of nonsense youtube videos.  Third, why make a laundry list of every country that has people who drift?  "Holding rediculoud angles on roads and weaving through traffic" sounds more like douchebaggery to me than actual drifting.  I can weave in and out of cars too--  Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 12:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * As I noted above, it's stunting, not drifting. Those videos show single feats of recklessness, not an exhibition of driving skill or a racing maneuver. &mdash; AKADriver &#x260E; 17:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well it is obvious that Oni Ookami Alfador hasn't seen the videos as they do hold slip angles in FWD cars that are in some case greater then traditional drifters in RWD vehicles. Of course I would be opposed to a list of drifting style in every country, but this is a particular cultural phenomenon distinct from that of traditional Japanese drifting.  Whether it is good or bad, reckless or safe is secondary, Touge started out reckless and really became an international sport and frankly while the guys in these Arab drift videos are clearly nuts I would be hesitant to dismiss their skill.  In any case if sources don't exist then it can't be added to the article, but I was curious if anyone knew more about it then I did. --Daniel J. Leivick 18:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I have seen the videos, and I was singularly unmoved by them. Most of them are just the result of roads with grip-conditions due to the environmental situation and some fishtailing on the drivers' part.--  Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 19:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Regardless of that, it IS drifting. It is too narrow-minded to simply say "FWD... drift? What?" Any car can spin, a semi-truck, a minivan, even a 747 aircraft. If it has wheels, can move and turn, it can drift. 71.252.155.128 (talk) 02:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Regardless of that. My grandma can slide in her kitchen when the floor is still wet after she washed it, does it make her a drifter? I doubt, Drifting is a motorsport that has its own rules and every random slides for any reason isn't a drift as defined by the motorsport called Drifting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.211.210.232 (talk) 22:08, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Drawbacks?
Could somebody speak to the drawbacks of drifting? I don't know much about racing, but I got the impression that many professional drivers don't drift due to the loss of speed or control.

I read this at club4ag.com:

"With a clean lap of the track without passing, a smooth neutral cornering is the fastest way around. However, a driver can rarely get past another car by tracing the same line and obeying the laws of braking points...A drifting car is losing time because the traction and lateral grip is lower on a tire with skidding going on.

There are those who argue that "grip" style driving is the fastest way...that drifting is a slow way aroud corners... In theory this is very true...  But, in multiple car competitions, the more options the driver has in terms of his line, braking points and skill, the more chances he'll have to pass the leading car that's blocking his "proper line."


 * In typical paved-course racing situations with modern tires, there is no usual need to "drift" per se, though tires are at their maximum grip when they are sliding just slightly (4-10 degrees or so). A car slideing at an angle of 4 degrees would not appear to be "drifting" to an outside observer.  Sliding beyond this angle, producing a visible and showy drift, will decrease the maximum lateral acceleration and hence the maximum cornering speed will go down.
 * The club4ag article is correct in that a slide might be used to block a pass or otherwise put a driver in a better position with respect to other cars in a wheel to wheel race, but it's not common.
 * Racing on loose surfaces like dirt, gravel, or snow, or on poor tires, often involves "drifting" to set the car up for a higher corner exit speed. This sacrifices a little corner speed for a lot of straight line speed between corners.  It's only worth the tradeoff in situations like this where corner speed is already very low.
 * This article is about the sport of drifting, where the goal is just to drift skillfully, not necessarily to go as fast as possible. &mdash; AKADriver &#x260E;  21:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Lets see, accidentally topping off spectators is one down side (ever see Saudi drifting?)... 24.168.64.206 23:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Drifting is indeed slower than grip turning, there are some uses for it, like already stated. It all depends on the actual turn. Kalga-han


 * Again, whatever drawbacks there are in racing are sort of outside the scope of the article - the article describes the sport of drifting, and there are (obviously) no disadvantages to drifting at a drifting event.
 * As far as the Saudi stuff goes, that also is more stunting than drifting since the goal is not skillful driving, but rather individual feats of recklessness. Legal drift sanctioning bodies are subject to the same liability to provide for the safety of their fans as any racing asanctioning body. &mdash; AKADriver &#x260E; 18:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I remember, when I was in elementary school in the '60s, checking out a book on Racing from my local library. As it turns out, the author was a child star but I can't remember who. (I think it was Tony Dow, who played Wally Cleaver on 'Leave it to Beaver' but I'm not sure.)

In that book, I remember the description of drifting and how it was slower going through the turn, but what really mattered was how fast you were going when you came out of the turn, and that's why driftng was important.

But if a child star turned author in the '60s was writing about drifting, why does this page talk about it like it's something new and something the Japanese invented? - TCav 01:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * As the intro states, this article is primarily about the sport of drifting, in which the point is to drift in a showy fashion and be scored by judges, not to get around a race track as quickly as possible. The sport of drifting is new and is something the Japanese invented. TomTheHand 18:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I just popped onto this talk page with the intent to beef about the same thing. Where do these young punks get off claiming to have 'invented' drifting?  (The intro doesn't make the point clear at all).  What I do know, first hand (therefore not suitable for inclusion in the main article), is that we were doing it in the early sixties, when the same techniques were taught to me by people who'd been doing it throughout the fifties, and probably before.  I also question the claim that LSD is required, and the implication that a manual transmission is also necessary.  We were using the same techniques on dirt and sometimes, on asphalt (if you were good enough at it), with non-locking  and open gear rear-ends, and sometimes even with automatic transmissions.  In fact, it's actually easier to break your assend loose when you have only one driven wheel, although it is somewhat more difficult to pull out of such a slide.  Furthermore, and apparently overlooked in the article, is the technique we called the 4-wheel drift, in which the entire vehicle is thrown into a (barely) controlled all-wheel slide through a big wide turn, then brought back under full control upon coming out.  All I've seen here is discussion of what we called a 2-wheel drift, or power slide, & heel&toe-ing through a tight set of hairpins (which we called 'heel&toe-ing').  The crappy little punk-ass cheat using the handbrake was something we did just for fun when driving our girlfriends' VW Bugs, as there wasn't much else you could do to make driving one even remotely interesting. If the Japanese want to claim credit for inventing that little trick, they can have it as far as I'm concerned!  75.51.124.212 (talk) 02:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * This is a straightforward case of semantic change. The term drift, short for four-wheel drift , originally meant to corner with approximately the same slip angle at the front as at the rear.  The term came from traditional auto racing, where the four-wheel drift is regarded as the fastest way to corner a racing car (and, yes, I know that's a simplified explanation).  Perhaps because most drivers are accustomed to understeer, a true four-wheel drift can feel like oversteer.  So, over time, the term drift picked up the connotation of oversteering.


 * The term sliding would probably have been a better choice for the name of the sport we call drifting, since the sport is based on power slides. But that ship has sailed.--Tedd (talk) 00:24, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

/* Drifting in games */
This is degenerating into list form and as such, is turning into a trivia section. Triona (talk) 22:22, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

/* Suspension */
Added to and reworded part of the Suspension section as it sounded rather informal. Will contiue to tidy this page. --MrWonton (talk) 12:28, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Origins of Drifting
As another commentator has stated, "drifting" as a driving technique was practiced long before the modern "sport" was created by the Japanese. My uncle taught me to drift back in the 1970s and he had learned from my grandfather who had been a bootleg moonshine runner during the 50s. I don't dispute that drifting as a sport was popularized in Japan but the guys who eventually invented NASCAR who were really the ones who first discovered and used drifting. Don't forget flat-track racing either, one big long drift... All those slippery dirt roads in the American SE were the proving ground for drifting. MRRnVA 17:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)MRRnVA


 * And the Japanese were probably doing that even before the 50's, considering their entire country is mountainous and lack straight roads. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.144 (talk) 17:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I got to this page because it was linked by the article on Tazio Nuvolari. Here is a quote Nuvolari was one of the early proponents (if not the inventor, according to Enzo Ferrari) of the four-wheel drift technique. The technique was later utilised by drivers such as Stirling Moss.[10].  Does anyone have more info or a better source on the origins of drifting, or exactly what a 4 wheel drift is compared to what is described in the article (which seems more like what I would call a "power-slide")?  I think various forms of "drifting" were used as a cornering technique by sports car and gran prix drivers long before it was a "sport" and from the Nuvolari article it seems that its origins may stretch back as early as the 1930s.  Seems like the history section should maybe be expanded in some way and maybe there should be some sort of clarification about drifting as a race driving technique vs. drifting as a "sport".  Or should that information be included in its own article?  A quick search through articles on car handling, race driving, and so on doesn't turn up any mention of drifting, so maybe this is the appropriate place for such info?--LookoutforChris (talk) 04:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok ive been reading this page, and it drive me fucking nuts when i hear about AWD (all wheel drive) drifting, THATS FUCKING POWER SLIDING. The art of drifting is breaking traction with the rear wheels powering over causing them to spin thus causing the car to go into a slide, maintaining that slide while using the accelerater to controll angle. the front wheels NEVER break traction. In an AWD if you try to power over all wheels will break traction. POWERSLIDE!. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.232.170 (talk • contribs) 14:50, 5 February 2012


 * This is Wikipedia. There are more wrong facts here than you will know in your lifetime, and you'll kill youself if you have a heart attack every time you see a wrong fact. Just find a source, cite it, and there you go. Fixed! Nothing to get mad about. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:06, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect Definition of "Drifting"
I’m afraid the first paragraph in the article is confusing and is basically incorrect. The first sentence is partially correct in that it correctly describes what most people these days think of as “drifting”. But it is also incorrect in that that is not the true and original meaning of drifting as originally used in racing. As for the second sentence the first half kind of explains the correct meaning of a true drift but the second half of the sentence is once again referring to the current and incorrect definition of a drift. It makes it sound as if it’s talking about the same thing when it’s actually referring to two different things. To avoid some of this confusion it should probably be pointed out that what we call “drifting” today has absolutely nothing to do with the original meaning of the word as it applies to racing. The term was most commonly used in Formula One racing in the 70’s to describe a condition in which the car would seemingly steer itself through a turn due to the high slip angles of the rear tires. Drifting does not involve a loss of traction in either the front or rear tires though. To understand how this is possible you have to understand slip angles. A slip angle is the difference in angle between the direction the tire is pointing and the direction the car is actually traveling while still maintaining 100% traction (any angle difference caused by sliding is NOT a slip angle). This difference occurs because the tread is distorted by cornering forces as it passes through the contact patch, and of course the maximum slip angle for a tire occurs at the point just before the tire looses its grip on the road. Unfortunately the concept is virtually impossible to explain without an illustration, but basically because the rubber of a tire is flexible the car can be headed in a slightly different direction than the tires are pointed even while those tires are maintaining 100% traction and are not sliding at all. Anyway, as I said before, in Formula One cars back in the 70’s the rear tires operated at much higher slip angles than the front tires, which allowed drivers to actually go through the last 3/4 of certain turns with the front wheels pointed straight ahead. Basically the higher rear slip angles were, in effect, steering the car from the rear. By the way, you cannot do with ANY street car and not even with most race cars. Only the rear tires of old F1 cars operated at large enough slip angles to truly drift. So this is the true meaning of the term drifting. Unfortunately though the general public eventually started confusing the meaning of the term and took it to mean a “power slide” or “fishtailing”, which are basically layman’s terms for sliding a car around corners in an extreme over steer attitude. It should also be pointed out that fishtailing around turns, or “drifting” as we now mistakenly refer to it, is NOT and never has been the fastest way to get around a paved racecourse. A dirt track is a different story of course and on such courses you must employ heavy over steer to get fast lap times - or to outrun the law on dirt roads if you were a 1930’s bootlegger. On the pavement however this kind of so called “drifting” is purely about exhibitionism and I have never considered it to be a real motor sport. It is lots of fun of course. In fact I started doing it for fun back in the 70’s when I was only 16 years old and I was probably one of the best in the country at it at the time. But I was not just doing it for fun. I did it because I thought I wanted to get into stunt driving and so I taught myself all the stunts they do in the movies. But then when I got more serious about racing I realized that I would have to stop driving around corners like I was in a Hollywood chase scene if I ever wanted to win any races. As for Kunimitsu Takehashi all I can say is, if he won a lot of races it was in spite of his “drifting” and not because of it. Of course I’ll admit there are certain types of turns on very tight courses where, with certain types of cars, you might possibly be able to “drift” through it faster than you might otherwise driving conventionally. In fact back in the 70’s I proved that I could get through a slalom course faster than drivers and cars that would otherwise have edged me out on a regular racecourse at the time. I did this by getting completely sideways around every pylon and then doing a 180-power slide around the last pylon to turn around for the return run through. The other drivers were just scratching their heads in disbelief trying to figure out how I had beaten them with such a sloppy and showy “racing” technique. That was a rare exception to the rule however and I can’t think of any racecourse these days in which a modern race car on modern racing tires could “drift” around the course and end up winning a race or even placing. In fact when people come to me and express an interest in “drifting” I always tell them to take up some kind of dirt track racing instead, such as closed course rally. That way they get the fun of “drifting” and the fun of REAL racing at the same time since they will have to power slide around every corner in order to get a fast lap time. Anyway the point of all this is that the term drifting has been misused to mean, “over steer cornering” or “fishtailing” or “power sliding”, and none of these are what it actually means. Actually “power sliding” is probably the most apt description of modern so called “drifting”, as excess power is always applied in order to induce an extreme over steer attitude in the car while in turns (in racing, particularly on dirt, power is used to control the over steer, but rarely to induce it). Although I guess one could argue that when enough of the population misuses a word for a long enough period of time that the wrong meaning eventually become the correct meaning. Still a good Wikipedia page should explain the true and original meanings of the term. And judging from the comments on here people are very confused about this subject. Slobeachboy (talk) 07:50, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

About usefullness of the drift
The article is named Drifting (motorsport). But it doesn't seem like “it's about the sport discipline”. It seems like it's about “drifting as related to motorsport”. The article doesn't show the place of drifting in the outside picture of racing and driving. And concentrates only on its details. And there's no other article, or is there?, that would describe that. So it should be either redirected or included in all the information how and if it is useful on a race at all.

Then again, in “in the media” they example the cartoon “Initial d”, which is assumably just “about drifting”. But this cartoon is not about drifting as discipline. It of course just plunges into overall use of it in the races and doesn't either prove is it even beneficial to slide turns on asphalt. And other games: they worship turn-sliding for general racing.

These thoughts about it's usable only mostly in mud or snow, are worthy need for the main article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.190.36.158 (talk) 01:30, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Diagram showing two drifting techniques
Hi everybody, I created this diagram showing a car drifting using two different techinques: Lift-Off and Clutch-Kick which are two common ways to make a RWD car drifting. This diagram shows the path of the car in the turns, the weight-force transfers, the grip level of the rear tires during the drifting and how the driver handles the throttle, the brake and the clutch during the execution. Furthermore, this diagram has three focuses: the first one is about the smattering of "oversteer", the second shows what happens to a tire while the car is drifting and the last one is about the "pivot" caused by the transfer of weight force using Lift-off technique.

I hope you will appreciate it and I hope to be allowed to insert it in the article.

--Pietrocedone (talk) 19:05, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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New Heading
This person bellow does not know what they are talking about......may be just another grumpy old never wasa. Evan Burpen (talk) 00:36, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Please note I've added a heading to inform readers that this article is absolute shit. If somebody with any sort of knowledge extending beyond Google-ing "drifting" would read through the article and remove the retarded shit (and for that matter, anybody with some knowledge of proper encyclopedic grammar) that would be great. And before you ask, I'm not fixing it myself because I just don't give a fuck about this subject, but can't stand to let an article this bad remain in this condition without saying something.

Is there a way to edit the main title to remove the 'motorsport' tag? Drifting is NOT motorsport. Billzilla (talk) 21:54, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

File:King of Europe Round 3 Lydden Hill 2014 (14356011899).jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:King of Europe Round 3 Lydden Hill 2014 (14356011899).jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on March 29, 2017. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2017-03-29. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 05:06, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Birth of drifting
The article says "The famous motorcyclist turned driver, Kunimitsu Takahashi, was the foremost creator of drifting techniques in the 1970s", notice this guy started his career in 1977. This statement is total nosense, drifting techniques were hugely popular in European rallies by that time, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzsSwamSDrA 0:55, 1:15 ...

Look at an excellent display of drifting in Montecarlo 1973 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS7zQVlu_cI specially at 12:00 --Bentaguayre (talk) 22:12, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

4WD vs RWD vs FWD drifting
Somebody who is informed should cover differences between those. Method of causing the drift in each of those scenarios. 213.149.62.151 (talk) 02:00, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

4 wheel drift and 2 wheel drift

 * 2 wheel drift with a car.

not talking about using a 4WD vehicle to drift. All (car) drifts are 4 wheel drifts to some extent. Ross Bentley, author of Speed Secrets also mentioned this in his book. Fangio was also known to perform this 4 wheel drift. Essentially, both front wheels and back wheels are just slightly over the tip of their grip limits. You "drift", but you don't actually counter steer. There's also minimal to no "smoke". (What are) Conditions: weight transfer, use the weight of the car+brakes and then a little bit of opposite lock, timing, smoothness, and the balance of the car,  car with low grip, about balancing the car throughout the entire turn, car with natural understeer and plenty of power,  have to set the steering just right so that you don't have to move it again until you start to unwind. Not moving the steering allows the cars weight to "set" and it lets you steer with the throttle and brake more. Then you have to be gentle enough so that the throttle aids in the 4 wheel drift instead of causing understeer or in more extreme cases oversteer??? 213.149.62.151 (talk) 23:19, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
 * 4 wheel drift with a car aka all wheel drift

Drifting Motorbike
How does it differ from car drifting? How(/When (situation, type of ground, rain)) usable, effective, practical it is?? Can all types of motorbikes drift? 213.149.62.151 (talk) 23:22, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Drift Gymkhana
 * Speedway

Slip Angle and Drifting
The reason old school drivers slid more is: the optimum slip angle for older tires was much higher.

The optimum slip angle is where you generate the most friction. 213.149.62.151 (talk) 23:23, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Difference between Drifting and Powersliding?
There are two main ways to keep a car in a controlled slide - drifting and powersliding.

There is a misconception that drifting is the same as power sliding or fishtailing.

to make sliding turn / to slide a turn / to turn-slide vs to drift a turn. 213.149.62.151 (talk) 02:12, 13 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Please rephrase this as a suggestion for article improvement. see help:talk pages, and wp:talk page guidelines. Using this page as a chat room should be avoided - see wp:NOTFORUM. Thank you Jim1138 talk 00:02, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Reverse Entry Drifting and Reverse Drifting
The former is AKA Backwards Entry Drift. This is done in forward gears.

Sometimes is (erroneously) shortened to Reverse Drifting although (/because) there is Reverse Drifting as in Drifting-in-Reverse-Gear or Drifting while driving backwards.

What is it (General description of method)? Practicality? Are there situations where it's better (result is faster cornering) to use reverse entry drifting than normal drifting? Which is faster, normal or reverse entry drifting?

Is it possible with motorbike? 213.149.62.151 (talk) 20:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2019
The wording here reads incoherently so I cleaned it up a little and added this bit from source: http://driftjapan.com/drift-glossary/

I don't know how to properly add the source, sorry and happy new year.

Replace existing text with the paragraphs bellow. "Steering and suspension This section does not cite any sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (March 2017) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)

Steering angles are also crucial as the driver progresses. The first stage of these modifications is usually a modified steering knuckle or upright. Extended control arms can be employed on MacPherson strut vehicles like the Nissan S-Chassis, as to allow for more clearance for higher steering angles. Companies like Wisefab, Driftworks, IRP (Individual Racing Parts), Voodoo13, and Parts Shop MAX have developed full lock kits including modification of the vehicle's original scrub radius, kingpin axis, Ackermann angle, amount of bump steer, caster angle, and kinematics as to maximize front grip and eliminate mechanical bind at steering angles in excess of 60°. While MacPherson strut vehicles are prevalent in profession drifting, Double wishbone suspension vehicles can also be competitive, with often better caster and camber curves.

Spring rates and dampers (shock absorbers) are tuned also at higher skill levels, depending on track layout.

Typically, dedicated drifting cars are modified to eliminate "Ackermann steering geometry", which is included on almost all production cars. While Ackermann geometry is helpful in making a car turn easier, it inhibits the ability to slide sideways at full lock necessary to compete in drifting."

Replace with:

47.189.84.79 (talk) 09:48, 1 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: The text you have requested to be added was copied and pasted directly from the source material. This is a copyright violation, even if you cite your source. If you would like to see this changed, please rewrite the section in your own words, citing your sources, and reopen this request. &#8209;&#8209; El Hef  ( Meep? ) 17:53, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

The meaning of "JDM", etc
In the section "Cars" I changed it slightly because it appeared that someone was confused and was calling Japanese imports in general "JDM" cars. This is wrong. JDM means cars as sold in Japan only. JDM cars are not "imported", although one can buy examples and bring them into country on the grey market. "Import" implies straightforward sales of that car in that market, which makes it no longer a "JDM" car. But the next few paragraphs were confused, and I can't tell if the writer was referring to Japanese cars in general as "JDM" or if they were just ignoring the existence of regualr Japanese import cars. They specifically mentioned JDM cars being right-hand drive, but they seemed to believe the choice between cars was limited to domestic market or JDM cars. This is wrong. In most places it is easier to find a Japanese import version of a car that is ALSO sold on the JDM, such as the Nissan 240SX/Silvia. The 240SX is IMPORTED into the US. The Silvia is the same car, sold in the Japanese Domestic Market. One can choose between a US car like a Mustang, OR a Japanese car such as the 240SX, OR you can buy a JDM Silvia on the grey market and bring it in country. Talking of "JDM imports" is misguided, as os talking as if it ewas a choice between "local cars" and "JDM cars". "Local" can mean either Japanese or domestic, and in most countries it's far easier to get a Japanese import than to obtain an actual JDM car, even though many people seem to ascribe supernatural powers and great status to these semi-mythical "JDM Cars", which make them highly desirable. Anyway, the whole section was confused and I couldn't decide WHAT they were talking about. Either they were wrong and were calling all Japanese cars "JDM" cars or they were ignoring regular Japanese imports entirely. I changed it to make it a little clearer and more factual, although I'm not sure it was in line with what was originally being said.

Also while I'm here I will menion again that there appears to be no link or redirect at all for the term "domestic automobile". The best you can do is link to a short stub about "domestic market", and that seems like it's leaving a lot out of a very complex subject.

Idumea47b (talk) 04:15, 5 May 2019 (UTC)