Talk:Drive (Incubus song)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:42, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Removal of nu metal
Okay, I think it's better to start a discussion here than start an edit war. I don't dispute that Metal Hammer is a reliable source, but in this particular case what it says is complete bullshit that doesn't make sense. This destroys the credibility of Wikipedia in the eyes of readers and misleads them. You know, sometimes it's exceptions should be made, because the sources may be wrong. If some source says, for example, that Machine Head's "Burn My Eyes" a pop punk album, would you add it to the infobox? There are many instances when questionable genres are supported by sources but they're mentioned in the body instead of the infobox. Thanks. SlamDunk1997 (talk) 23:44, 8 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't particularly trust reviews based on titles such as "The 40 best nu metal songs of all time" or "Every Alternative Rock No. 1 Hit from Worst to Best", because the writer very often widens their scope to include more stuff in the title category. The best reviews are ones that discuss the artist's style in the context of the song or album.
 * Incubus famously hated the nu metal label. Despite this, we follow the sources and classify some of their stuff as nu metal. Genres on Wikipedia are established by WP:SECONDARY sources, not by the band's own opinion.
 * Chicago Reader wrote that "Drive" "wouldn’t sound nu-metal at all if not for the sparse turntable scratching." Which means that it has some nu metal components.
 * Plenty of other sources call the song other things than nu metal, so we should give them greater weight. For instance, The New Rolling Stone Album Guide (ISBN 9780743201698) says on page 403 that "Drive" and "Stellar" are "two of the finest Modern Rock singles of the era". Other sources emphasize the acoustic quality of "Drive". Binksternet (talk) 01:53, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Revisiting this issue: WP:ONUS says that disputed material must stay out of the article until consensus for inclusion is established. Users who have disputed the "nu metal" genre in the infobox include myself, 178.176.219.45, Catinasixfold7, 146.7.15.74, SlamDunk1997, SlytheWarrior, Leon s redfield,, ElSebazz1602. and Y2kcrazyjoker4. Which means that consensus is NOT for inclusion of the nu metal genre.
 * Remember that WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. If a normally good source puts out a stupid conclusion, we can remove that source because they missed some essential context. Binksternet (talk) 19:49, 3 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Some may feel it should not be included and some do. Establish opinions. It should be a group effort to discuss. From my experience in this area for something that I originally added to "In the End" as pop nearly two years ago, I understand it should be due process to an RFC for removal, as that encourages discussion on how everyone thinks it should be either included or removed. Some like yourself may find it to be a ridiculous "stupid conclusion." That is your opinion. It is worth noting that the examples you provided are from WP:GENREWARRIOR, which isn't an appropriate consensus to make. Keep it in the mean time. Rockmusicfanatic20 (talk) 20:44, 3 October 2023 (UTC)


 * WP:ONUS is part of WP:V which is hard policy. Disputed material stays out unless consensus exists for inclusion. Period.
 * Perhaps at your other discussion, a previous consensus was established prior to the dispute. That's not the case here. Binksternet (talk) 21:24, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

RfC
For the past year or so, there have been active discussions and edit wars regarding "Drive" by Incubus being nu metal or not. The source source provided is by Metal Hammer. Some feel it should be included due to it being stated by Metal Hammer which is reliable, which also compares the song to other nu metal songs by other nu metal bands. However, some do not think this means it should be included due to other reasons. What are other opinions? Should it be included or not? Please explain, alongside your choice why you feel whether you feel it should or not.

Options:

Support inclusion Support removal

Many thanks. Rockmusicfanatic20 (talk) 21:08, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

RfC Discussion

 * (Comment) RFCBEFORE applies to this RFC for two reasons:
 * no prior discussion of the nu metal issue has occurred on this talk page
 * a currently active RFC (as of October 3, 2023) precedes this RFC and is not yet closed.
 * I suggest closing closing both RFCs and opening a discussion on this talk page prior to determining if an RFC would be helpful. Otherwise the purpose for an RFC is negated: no basis is laid for newly summoned editors to participate. — N eonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 12:23, 4 October 2023 (UTC) —
 * Oops! Somehow I got the impression there were two active RFCs. At any rate, the opening statement for the RFC seems less than neutral. Statements of opinion in the RFC are less than helpful.
 * If I were to !vote prior to more research, I would find the article more interesting and useful if discussion of RS comments of influence and genre were added. Not in the lede and with no info box category were added. — N eonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 12:45, 4 October 2023 (UTC) —
 * Apologies, thought the RfC was fair. Didn't realise alluding to my own opinion didn't fairly state the RfC neutrally, I will go ahead and edit that out. To clarify, all of these discussions have occurred on the edit history page through edit warring., thus why it isn't on the talk page. Rockmusicfanatic20 (talk) 15:14, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Removal. In this case, WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. The source does not explain why they think the song is nu metal, and sources such as "All Time Best Nu Metal Songs" are notorious for widening their net to include too much stuff. This song is described as modern rock by more more sources. The song has minor nu metal elements, but the main genre is not nu metal. Binksternet (talk) 15:41, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Not included To say the least, it's a bit of a stretch to call "Drive" nu metal. This is like discussing whether the American robin is a bird of prey. It's a commonsense conclusion. The nu metal page states, Nu metal ... is a subgenre of alternative metal that combines elements of heavy metal music with elements of other music genres such as hip hop, alternative rock, funk, industrial, and grunge. Maybe it's just me, but when I listen to "Drive", I don't pick up any elements of heavy metal. If other people do, I'd be curious to know what those elements are. pillow crow 18:13, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Support inclusion - I've always found music genres to be a matter of opinion among editors, which is why we use RS. Metal Hammer is a RS, and they have twice said nu metal for this song. I don't find the above argument compelling - "All Time Best Nu Metal Songs" are notorious for widening their net to include too much stuff - when the present source in the article for alt rock "widened their net" to include 354 songs in their list of Every Alternative Rock No. 1 Hit from Worst to Best. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:02, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Support removal per WP:OBVIOUS kinda/sorta. A claim being reliably sourced isn't reason enough to include that claim here and including this genre on this song is nonsensical on its face.  City O f  Silver  19:07, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Support inclusion - I've always found music genres to be a matter of opinion among editors, which is why we use RS. Metal Hammer is a RS, and they have twice said nu metal for this song. I don't find the above argument compelling - "All Time Best Nu Metal Songs" are notorious for widening their net to include too much stuff - when the present source in the article for alt rock "widened their net" to include 354 songs in their list of Every Alternative Rock No. 1 Hit from Worst to Best. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:02, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Support removal per WP:OBVIOUS kinda/sorta. A claim being reliably sourced isn't reason enough to include that claim here and including this genre on this song is nonsensical on its face.  City O f  Silver  19:07, 19 October 2023 (UTC)