Talk:Drosopigi, Florina

Untitled
Further organized active vs. inactive topics. drosopigi (talk) 23:44, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

= Active topics =

Belkamen not an alternative name for the current village
drosopigi (talk) 20:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC) Belkamen was added as an alternative name for the village of present Drosopigi (the topic of this article) but that name is not used by any residents of Drosopigi today, even when speaking Arvantitika. Cite a source if you believe one exists to back your case.

drosopigi (talk) 00:01, 19 December 2008 (UTC) PMK1 introduced a misleading change for the second time. Belkameni not an alternative name to Drosopigi. It is the historical named, and was even used when referring to the village in Greek. Listing it as an equivalent name would be akin to listing Constantinople as an equivalent name to Istanbul. It's the historical name of the "old village". The naming of Belkameni was covered in the "Old village" section, but if you insist on having it mentioned up front then it should conform to how Constantinople is mentioned in the Istanbul article. Doing otherwise is inaccurate.

Format and style [Move article to more compliant/encyclopedic style]
Added Infobox (DONE) drosopigi (talk) 20:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Started with Intro paragraph. This relates to Compliance item #6 as well. (DONE) --drosopigi

Some of the prose are still written in essay style, and need to be made more encyclopedic. I've fixed this in some places, but examples that remain include:

"Life in the Old Village" -> "Life for the villagers of Drosopigi was very difficult at times." "Drosopigi Present" -> " Family member long past still buried have not been touched, left in the past only to think about them in their family members dreams." drosopigi (talk) 22:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Personal references
References to names of the contributors in the article is against wikipedia policy, so these will need to be removed. You can create a real user account for yourself if you want your name (or someone else's) to go down in perpetuity.

Out of politeness, I'd rather the original authors remove these themselves. --drosopigi 22:58, 21 December 2007

It appears I'll have to remove these myself. In the orignal article it stated it was "Written by Ioannis Dedes. Revised by Sarah Harissis." This is now removed. drosopigi (talk) 19:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The original author added back the "Written by..." mention. No discussion from what I can tell. drosopigi (talk) 00:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Made various attempts to update talk page of Greekfan21 to no avail thus far. drosopigi (talk) 23:55, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Images correctly belong to Drosopigi?
I don't recognize 2 of the images added to the Drosopigi, Florina article by Greekfan21 as locations within the village, old or new. The mystery church is shown in Image:276.JPG and Image:1275.JPG specifically. drosopigi (talk) 19:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Are these two images from Elatia? drosopigi (talk) 20:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Confirmed these two images are from Elatia. They are both of the church Agiou Nikolaou. Elatia was a very small village across from old Drosopigi, but it was a distinct village. I'll start a new discussion section to mention it's significance, and relation to Drosopigi. I'm removing the two images until we can sort out what to do. drosopigi (talk) 21:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Elatia
Elatia was a small village located on the mountainside across from old Drosopigi. Like Drosopigi, it was subject to policy of forced relocation by the Greek government in 1947, but it was so small its inhabitants did not return to rebuild, but rather, rebuilt in new Drosopigi. I think it's an interesting little fact to work back into the article, and the images I've removed could come back into play once this is sorted out. drosopigi (talk) 22:03, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Accuracy and Consistency
Reordering these items to reflect which are most needed to be addressed. drosopigi (talk) 23:41, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Emigration Bias
In "Drosopigi Present", there is a lot of discussion about villagers who left Greece for the US, Australia and Germany. This view is biased, however, because it's also accurate that a lot of the villagers move to Florina, Thessaloniki, and to a lesser degree, Athens. Not sure which accounted for the larger decrease in village population, the relocation inside Greece or the emigration out of Greece. Requires research... possibly a revision in wording meanwhile could help.

Arnaouts, Arvanites, Aromanians
1. The "The Old Village" states that after 1926, when Belkameni became Drosopigi, "Of course everyone still referred to it as Belkamen and the people as Arnaouts." requires some kind of reference or a qualification, as this clearly was a temporary event.

Changed "everyone" to "some people". I'm still wondering if this point is necessary. (IN PROGRESS) drosopigi (talk) 00:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

2. In "The Old Village", it comments how the original inhabitants of Drosopigi "... were known as Arvanites ...". It's not clear whether this was how they self identified, or how they were referred to by others, and if the latter, what their opinion was of it. Given how this currently reads, you'd have to rely on the Arvanites article to explain this, but from my interview of past and present village residents, this does not jibe with how they self identified. Perhaps should be qualified for now in the text. Requires research. drosopigi (talk) 23:41, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

3. Update from PMK1 (23:58, 5 January 2009) confused this further by implying that village was divided between Arvanites and Aromanians based on a language study from 1993. This: (a) Poorly characterizes the ethnic self-identity of Drosopigiotes, not only from 1993, but even from the day of the village's inception. Drosopigiotes consider themselves Greek. When they are referred to as an "Aravanitos" or a "Vlahos" (Aromanian), or both as is the case with the tri-lingual residents that remain in the village, it is not considered inconsistent with their Hellenistic self view. (b) Creates a need for previously unnecessary clarification that 100% of Drosopigiotes speak Greek today. Educated villagers have been bi or tri lingual (with combinations of Greek, Arvanitika, and Vlahika) since the earliest days of the village. (c) Is inaccurate in terms of the amount of "Arvanitika" or "Vlahika" speakers that were living in the village as of 1993. The data in the cited study was probably accurate as of 20 or 30 years ago. In any case, this is the least of these 3 issues. drosopigi (talk) 04:17, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * My father, who is from Drosopigi, confirms this. It seems the term Aromanians is being mistakenly used to describe Vlahi. 35.129.29.67 (talk) 03:16, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Added acknowledgment of Greek and Vlahika in "The Old Village". The original school built in the old village was a Greek speaking school and supports the claim on the Greek side. Working on this reference. (IN PROGRESS) drosopigi (talk) 20:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Updated 5 January 2009 entry from PMK1 to better reflect what was stated in the cited reference, and to remove the confusion caused by inferring that the village was divided by Arvanites and Aromanians. Quotes from the cited reference that support my additions: (1) "...Greek is without any doubt the dominant language in all the area, and the people who do not speak it at all count on the fingers of the two hands..." (2) "...much of speakers of such languages [in this case, Arvanitika and Vlahika] are proud of their cultural heritage, in particular of their language..."

Even resident of the village today speaks Greek, and this was true back in 1993 as well. Those that additionally speak Arvanitika and/or Vlahika, are elderly, and do so with their other elderly friends who enjoy exercising the old tongue. (IN PROGRESS) drosopigi (talk) 23:07, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Condition of Old Village
In "Drosopigi Present", is this sentence: "The old village lies in ruins never to be touched. Family member long past still buried have not been touched, left in the past only to think about them in their family members dreams." I'm not sure what this means, other than the general sense that once a loved one passes away, the living family are only left with their memories. It's noteworthy, if you've been to the Old Village (Palio Horio) recently, that the cemetery has been completely cleared. The dirt road to the Palio Horio was also in good shape, and you could drive all the way to the cemetery (although, we chose to hike). I can state for a fact that this was the case in August 2007. At the time, if you knew where your family members tombstones were, you could visit them like any other cemetery (I have photos to verify this). It's accurate, of course, that most of the Palio Horio lies in ruins. I just want to point out that there are some attempts to keep up (i.e. "touch") parts of it. This section is also mentioned elsewhere for it's essay style. drosopigi (talk) 23:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

As of August,2011 the road to the Old Village is in a bad state due to truck use and should not be attempted by cars or the faint of heart as you could end up rolling your vehicle sideways down some large, steep hills. The old cemetary is totally overgrown, it is hard to distinguish that it is a cemetary - I walked a dozen steps into it before I realized what it was. I have photos if anyone is interested. DeYoung9 (talk) 10 November 2011

Belkameni vs. Balkameni
Why is the Greek word "Μπαλκαμένη" and the English word "Belkameni"? Shouldn't it be "Balkameni" to be as phonetically similar as possible to the associated Greek word? drosopigi (talk) 00:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Motivation for hiding bodies of dead solidiers
In "The Burning of the Old Village", it discusses the fact that the villagers work hard to clean the evidence of the battle and the hide the bodies of the dead nazi german soldiers. Their motivation for doing so, was so that the Germans would not enact their policy to kill 10-20 civilians for every killed soldier, a fact that would have a had a far more detrimental impact on the village in the long-term. Will try to verify what the belief was at the time to add this point. drosopigi (talk) 00:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

= Inactive topics =

Providing references
There are plentiful references on the history of Drosopigi, although all of it is in Greek, and much of it is hand written. The (already) mentioned Drosopigi website, however, is very accessible and contains a number of items that can already be utilized. (IN PROGRESS) --drosopigi

Cross-linking
There are many topics in this article that can and should connect with other articles. (DONE) --drosopigi

Specific named references and/or dedications
There are other names referenced in the article that should also be removed. See, "Many families from Drosopigi (like Dedes, Manou, Stathopoulos, Hantes, Marou, Harissis, Strembenis and many others) started to find ...". These can perhaps be moved to a dedicated page for families who've moved from the village, and be referenced from this article. Likewise, the finishing line "This webpage about Drosopigi gose to all the Drosopigiotes that live in Rochester...." is touching, but also not appropriate for wikipedia. If there was a website dedicated for Drosopigites living in Rochester, then this wiki would include it as one of its external references. drosopigi (talk) 22:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Moved mention of specific immigrant families and facts specific to Rochester to new article, which was merged with the City of Rochester, NY article. drosopigi (talk) 23:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed dedication to Drosopigiotes who live in Rochester to comply with the NPOV policies and to make this the best wikipedia page it can be for everyone who wants to learn about Drosopigi. drosopigi (talk) 23:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

(DONE) drosopigi (talk) 23:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Introductory sentence
See for recommended format. (DONE) --drosopigi

Adding captions with images
(DONE) --drosopigi drosopigi (talk) 23:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Accuracy and Consistency
Reordering these items to reflect which are most needed to be addressed. drosopigi (talk) 23:41, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Belkamen -> Drosopigi [resolved]
In the (currently) beginning section it says, "From the time period of 1843 to 1947 the village would come to be known as Belkamen and from 1952 until present as Drosopigi." The official history page on the village website (http://dim-drosop.flo.sch.gr) correctly lists the year as 1926.

Belkamen vs. Palio Horio [resolved]
In "The Old Village", it begins by saying "The original village (known as Belkamen)...". In fact, the locals presently refer to it as the "Old Village" or "To Palio Horio", because no one has used the name "Belkameni" since the 1920s, so they need a way to differentiate between Drosopigi present and Drosopigi past.

This particular reference seems accurate now that I've moved this piece from the intro to its own section, and the rest of it seems OK now. (talk) 00:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Belkamen vs. Belkameni [resolved]
The article refers to "Belkamen" in numerous places, and mentions "Belkameni" once parenthetically. My understanding, however, is that "Belkamen" was the name of the area, given by the Turks, and "Belkameni" the name that caught on for the village as a result. Thus, "Belkameni" would be the more correct (original) village name.

Turns out the correct usage, "Belkameni" was being used later in the article. Changed appropriate references from "Belkamen" to "Belkameni" for consistency. drosopigi (talk) 23:41, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Village vs. village [resolved]
The words "Village" and "village" seem to be used interchangeably in the article. Any reason why we shouldn't go with the lower cased version throughout? --drosopigi

Looking at other articles for examples, it's clear that when using the long version of the official name (e.g. The City of San Francisco, or The City of Rochester), "City" should be capitalized. Otherwise, it should be lowercase. "Village" can follow this same pattern. --drosopigi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.13.84 (talk) 18:16, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Timeline of Old Village being burned [resolved]
In "The Burning of the Old Village", there is an issue with the timeline. The smaller issue is that the killing of the German soldiers is claimed to have occured on April 4th, the same day of the burning. According to the village website, the German soldiers were killed on April 3rd. The more glaring contradiction, is "It took a week for the Nazis to suspect that their soldiers were executed." If the Drosopigi website is correct that the Germans were killed on the 3rd, and that the village burned down on on 4th, then this should be removed. (DONE) --drosopigi —Preceding comment was added at 18:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Bravo Belkameni !!
Bravo Belkameni for being proud Arvanite ...from Dodona —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.60.25.150 (talk) 06:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
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