Talk:Drum and bass/Archive1

jokes
"we can't just be adding our personal faves to a short list of pioneers, that's the kind of thing that just creates a mess. Bizzy B doesn't even have an article on wikipedia, maybe you should create one'

I rest my case. Please be quiet, you are a novice at best.

Bizzy B is a MAJOR pioneer, you absolute.....

digest

Some thoughts to consider
I had a whole speech, but here's a thought: I think we need to repost the part of the article that discusses drum and bass' birth from gabba, which I discovered at this page two years ago. Second, I think it's too long, too little information, the discussion page is pretty much people rapping about jungle vs. drum and bass, which isn't important. Pick one, my vote drum and bass, and then if someone hears of jungle they go to the disambiguation page, they click on the jungle part of the article at the drum and bass article, they read, and decide if they want to read more.

Also, the stuff you're recommending as artists is pretty weak. Roni Size, Goldie, Aphrodite, DJ Dara, AK1200, Dieselboy, and then a few others you mentioned are pretty good, Bukem and so on. Also, I run my drums for dnb in halftime at 120 bpm, which is 240 bpm, and then everyone dances in halftime. You rap over it in half time too, though I'm not a dnb MC. Whatever happened to that?

foxgemini

69.223.52.191 02:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Pictures
Also, being so long these days, this article badly needs some pictures to break up the text and make it more readable. I will see what I can find myself, and try and persaude some event photographers I know to donate a rave shot or two, but if anybody else has anything, please bring it on :) Stevekeiretsu 15:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Separate history?
Phew, it's been quite a long while since I had a chance to look/work on this article. It's certainly been expanded and improved a lot, nice work.

One thing concerns me which is that the history section is now very long and detailed. Perhaps unnecessarily so. You don't get to the "musicology" section (ie the bit defining what drum'n'bass actually IS) for ages. Does anybody think it is worth splitting the history section into History of drum and bass and having a far more concise summary on the main article? This seems standard throughout wikipedia once certain sections reach a given level of details and complexity.

Stevekeiretsu 15:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Steve: having expanded that section a fair bit myself, I should add that the detail here (at least in terms of my own imput) is in some degree to remedy the frequent media misrepresentation of the origins of this music (as being the ravey, cheesy spawn of 1991 'happy hardcore', after which it suddenly became 'dark'). It is neccessary to demonstrate that the roots go further than that - and that the real roots were of a different shade from day one.


 * I understand the point, but would you expect the compilers of a genre such as jazz, or even hip hop, to skimp on the origins of the music? I kinda feel the same way about D&B, so any info the public could use is helpful, no... ?


 * I'm not suggesting removing a single thing from wikipedia... taking the current section and pasting it word for word into a History of drumnbass article, and then making a 2-3 paragraph summary (funk reggae dub hiphop techno rave jungle dnb innit ;) ) in the main article. Like for example London vs History of London.


 * I looked at the examples you name, it's interesting, jazz doesnt split it into a separate article, but the way jazz is written is pretty much that the entire article is the history section - other aspects are worked around that structure. Hip hop music vs History of hip hop music does do what I'm talking about, but I'll admit the history article is longer than what we've got here.


 * Stevekeiretsu 00:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Cool, I get you, just responding to the 'unnecessarily' comment more than anything. I see it as very necessary, as you're aware (I'm guessing you're British) the media over here (going back over the last 10 / 15 years) has repeatedly tended to report their 'history' of D&B as being a by product of 'cheesy toytown rave' (al la Trip to Trumpton), when in fact that is totally false, and there are a whole bunch of elements of which it is very necessary to mention. In my opinion, ha ha.

Fluke - Zion
I removed this bit about Fluke - Zion: and the most widely know drum and bass is Zion by Fluke which was featured on the matrix reloaded soundtrack, and was used in the movie, for the underground dance sequence. Anyone who has any idea as to what drum'n'bass is, will concur that Fluke - Zion has nothing to do with it. It's tempo is around 135bpm, it has a steady 4/4 bassdrum oriented beat and it matches all the characteristics of progressive house/trance but pretty much none of drum'n'bass'. --Nuancednb 11:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC) Agreed Smartgenes (talk) 18:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

impressed
I'm not too fussed myself on whether Jungle=Drum and Bass and the like. But I would just like to say that this is one of the best Wikipedia articles that I have come across. Very intelligently written and extrordinarily well researched. After reading it I feel I have learnt a lot about a very interesting scene. --Cockers 20:12, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

removed paragraph
I removed this paragraph:


 * Although used to refer to the same music, the names drum and bass and jungle confer different connotations. In general, Jungle is considered simpler, sweatier, dirtier, rawer and (in terms of paying audience) more working-class than drum and bass. Drum and bass is considered more complex, sophisticated, cleaner sounding, more technical, more PC and more upper-class than jungle. But in common usage, these connotations are commonly blurred.

It seems somewhat less than NPOV, dividing the music by class. i.e. is drum and bass really "considered more complex". By whom? Perhaps earthier versus abstract would be a better distinction. In any case, it needs a rewrite. --Lexor 08:58, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)

No, this is a gross oversimplification. See my current re-working of the distinction. Smartgenes (talk) 19:00, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

anon changes
I was the one who made some of the recent anonymous changes to this entry. I'm new to wikipedia, so pardon any ignorance i might be showing. I would say I'm an expert on Drum & Bass, and the paragraph that was there before was very wrong, so I modified it to read what you have here. I think the whole thing could be left out, but given more time and thought, it would good to definitively address the usage of jungle vs. drum and bass. The reality is that they are used as synonyms, but they do give off certain connotations. For example, Drum and Bass was popularised as a term by people related to the Metalheadz label, Goldie, Fabio, Groovrider, who where pushing a more serious, polished and cutting-edge sound. I think leaving it out though is better for the time being. -- Cutups 13:45, 16 2004


 * Added my stab at NPOV discussion of 'jungle' versus 'drumnbass' semantics; I agree with Cutups that it probably does need covering. Stevekeiretsu 18:17, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Jungle Music is not the same as Drum & Bass...but similar...possibly classified as the bridge between 'Ardkore and Drum 'n' Bass...the inspiration leading to D & B...a precursor so to speak...one of the things Drum and Bass was born from.


 * Jungle is characterized by a more syncopated style of breakbeat (focused around a "mash up" style of producing and mixing drum patterns), a more reggae & hip-hop influenced bassline rather than an overproduced maelstrom of techy zip-zaps, and an often melodic reuse of subcultural sampling. Please see the Jungle Music page for more info.

No, this is absolutely not true. This view generally comes from people who joined the scene 1996 and after. Smartgenes (talk) 19:01, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * In no way should the Jungle Music page merge with this page since the two terms refer to categorically distinct genres within a larger breakbeat oriented phylum.--Daggerism 08:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I attempted to make the distinction clearer with the following addition:
 * "Certainly a distinction is made upon a track by "The Invisible Man" in 1995. This samples the words "strictly drum and bass" and echoes earlier tracks "The Power" and "Skyliner" which have a definite difference in drumbreak style to those referred to as jungle.
 * The editor mentioned that other records refer to jungle but that is not the point, as even though the terms are used more synonymously now, historically there was a larger difference at the time. Perhaps someone else can provide earlier examples or define the distinction in beats better than I can but what I see as important is that at the time Skyliner was around in about 1993 tracks like this were very different to the jungle ones ("Snowball" etc). I guess "Angel" was one of the early tracks in the distinction. Now, I remember the distinction then being between more between fast rolling beats of jungle as opposed to the more messed-up drum patterns of Danny Breaks etc. Then later this was kind of turned on its head as drum & bass came to refer more to tech-step (or the overproduced maelstrom of techy zipzaps!), so the messed-up amen breakbeats that characterised the greater production were used less frequently, and the step breakbeat was used instead (difficult to describe without sound, but people will know what I mean). Drum & bass was certainly more mash-up than jungle when the change was happening, although we must remember there was crossover of course. I hope that people will see the importance of discussing this here, as it needs to be nailed - there was a difference. --82.39.33.228 16:40, January 31 2006

This is exactly what occurred and anybody who was in the scene at that time should be able to confirm this. Smartgenes (talk) 19:03, 2 August 2010 (UTC) This is four years later since your post, so I guess I'm the only person who is bothered to try to make this distinction clear.

JUNGLE = DRUM N BASS
Most jungle/dnb producers today agree that the terms are synonimous. you are right, they may confer different meanings to different people, but i think that for the purposes of wiki they should be listed as the same.

That's my opinion, i would appreciate feedback. -- User:Themindset 22:37, September 23 2004


 * That's a ridiculous statement... first off it's obviously your personal POV... and attempting to quantify a POV with statements like 'most' is very misleading. If by 'most' you mean the guys you hang out with.. maybe!? But please only supply statements that are ACTUALLY correct.

-- User:tactik (comment actually from 210.50.236.183)

To start this article with the sentence, 'drum and bass is also known as jungle' is ridiculous. It is not true. As an avid fan of both genres, and of music in general, it becomes clear when you listen to both (as they ARE different) there presents many, many differences (although, I'll agree, they are related). This MUST be corrected as people who read up on the subject are simply getting the wrong information. I will not be the one to do so since there is plenty of discussion about it and I dont want to be booted.--DragonFly31 17:57, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Jungle is Drum and Bass from the point of view of the umbrella term for the music. Historically 1994-1995 they were different sub-genres of jungle until drum & bass took over as the umbrella term. Smartgenes (talk) 19:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Removed confusing and self-contradictory paragraph
I removed this paragraph, it is confusing, poorly written and contradicts itself, it needs major copyediting before being inserted back into the article, also it is not clear whether it should be in the Musicology or History section, it would benefit from being more clearly split along such lines. --Lexor|Talk 14:33, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)


 * Drum and bass came from Jungle, a moniker alledgedly stemming from a rough area in Kingston, Jamaica originally known as Concrete Jungle. It may have been named after this area due to the harshness or roughness of the beats and rhythm. There is a common misconception that jungle came from drum and bass, however the opposite is actually true. The first Jungle was not specifically Ragga influenced, but was an offshoot of breakbeat hardcore (now often referred to as oldskool or oldskool hardcore), but with a new rhythm form, emphasising heavily cut up breakbeats and stronger emphasis on deep bass. By the mid-1990s, the term Jungle on the British scene had come to refer to Jungle influenced by the raggamuffin dance hall tradition and favouring ragga-style MCs, cut up sampled drum loops and distorted bass (rather than the melodic vocals, programmed drums and floaty synthesizer ambience common in so-called 'intelligent' drum and bass, which was the beginning of the simpler programmed (rather than cut up sample based) drum pattern that for a long time characterised the difference between Jungle and Drum and Bass). Modern 'dark' drum and bass showcases highly programmed and complex beats running between 160 and 180 BPM, with synth leads that strongly emphasize the sub-bass frequencies, and frequently make use of various cuts and breaks in order to keep the dancing audience from becoming bored and losing energy.

As the early hardcore & breakbeat had a lot in common with the drum and bass of 94-95, as opposed to the jungle of late 93-94 which had a different style. There was plenty of crossover aswell though. There is some validity in this section which was removed, but it will add even more confusion. Smartgenes (talk) 19:10, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

THE DROP
Added reference to the drop in mixed DnB - at the end of the day it's all about the drop! Might also be worth explaining what 'rolling' DnB is. There's a lot of terminology people will hear through MCs which could do with explaining.


 * Sounds good, go for your life! It's good that these techniques are getting explained in this article. --Lexor|Talk 14:55, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Circular definition
From Drum and bass:
 * "Drum and bass (drum n bass, DnB) is an electronic music style. Originally an offshoot of the United Kingdom breakbeat hardcore and rave scene..."

From Breakbeat hardcore:
 * "Breakbeat hardcore (or rave) is a style of electronic music. It was an early 1990s offshoot of the Acid House scene of late 1980s Britain. It added a hip-hop influence with the addition of breakbeats, and increased the tempo...."

From Breakbeat:
 * "Breakbeat (breakbeats or breaks), are a collection of sub-genres of electronic music, chiefly exemplified by drum and bass and jungle..."

I broke the circle by changing the link in Breakbeat hardcore to break beat. Hyacinth 01:35, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * It seems to me the breakbeat article needs work, as drum and bass doesn't exemplify the genre of breakbeat.. dnb is an offshoot genre but is now as big or bigger than breakbeat and isn't really a subgenre of breakbeat any more than trance is a subgenre of house --Frantik 16:18, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

The global scene section
This is turning into a messy list over artists which may be of interest, to a few, but not for the article. It needs to be cleaned up, and it needs to be structured in another fashion. I would prefer another article with a list of artists arranged by countries, so that this section of the drum and bass article can be about the history, not just mentionings of user x's favourite drum and bass artist... What do you think? NuclearFunk 01:31, August 21 2005


 * I agree, it's getting out of control - there isn't the space to list every artist, from every country, who makes drum and bass. I would favour hiving them off into a separate article, if necessary. illWill 02:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Absolutely agree, as the person who first wrote that section it's actually annoying the hell out of me. I wrote it the way I did because rather than simply listing countries where it is found, with no evidence of their contribution to the global scene, it seemed better to give a couple of examples of the most prominent names to arise from those national scenes.  So: "USA (Dieselboy, Hive), Australia (Pendulum), Norway (Teebee, Polar)" etc - ie name just one or two artists who have undeniably risen to global status and would be recognised by a drumnbass fan from anywhere worldwide.


 * All that has happened since is everybody and their mother has seen it as an excuse to spam their own favourite 2-bit producers (or, quite likely, themselves), most of whom I certainly haven't ever heard of, and I doubt many people have. Every week there are one or two additions to this section, and every time I just think, wtf?  I'd edit them out again but I feel wary of being too much of an "article nazi", and don't want to give the impression that I think who I have heard of, or consider "notable", is the be-all and end-all (since it clearly isnt).


 * What really annoys me is that these users have the time to add their buddies to the list, yet do not have the time to ever contribute to dnb topics anywhere else. Considering there's still no article on Good Looking, Prototype, RAM, etc - you'd think anyone who was a true dnb fan and true Wikipedia user would set about fixing these massively glaring holes before abusing the general dnb article for advertising purposes.  Also, they don't even create an article for the people they're adding. It seems to me a fair general rule that if an artist isnt prominent enough to have an entry of their own, there's no way they deserve mention in the main article.


 * I agree, the idea of a separate article with artists/DJs by country is a good one. However, I still feel the idea of briefly highlighting major players from around the world is a valuable part of the main article, as it properly demonstrates the global nature of the music in a way that simply stating "it is now worldwide" does not.  How to have such a section without it becoming a free-for-all, plug-your-mates section again, I don't know.


 * How's about this for an idea: create articles like Drum and bass scene in America. Then have the countries listed in the "global scene" link to that article, as opposed to the article about the country itself.  Then residents of those countries can fill up the national-scene-articles with all their unheard-of-anywhere-else local acts as much as they like.


 * Sorry for the arrogant ranting tone, its just like I say, the only edits that ever happen anywhere in dnb articles are these ones, and it really gets my goat that dnb fans will happily use Wikipedia innapropriately as a form of (self)promotion yet not have the decency to help fix the enormous holes elsewhere. Stevekeiretsu 17:42, 21 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I decided to re-add the reference to the community in Kingston, Jamaica called "jungle" this place DOES indeed exist and is one of the worse ghettos in Kingston. Shy FX on the old release "Original Nuttah" said "yu know the gangsta, mi seh dem inna jungle." *translation* "you know gansters? I say they're in Jungle" (the community). This could very well be the origin of the term "jungle." However, he was only saying that they live in Jungle and this line was probably mis-interpreted to mean "we're gangsta and we're into jungle" (the music) and the term stuck.


 * Oh....and PLEASE do not combine Jungle and Drum and Bass. Tho the 2 may indeed sound similar, Jungle is more Reggae/Dancehall/Ragga influenced while D'n'B is a bit more Jazz flavoured. - Razza (comment actually from 64.229.194.43 07:13, January 26 2006

Merge Jungle music into Drum and bass
I propose that the article Jungle music should be merged into the article Drum and bass. These two genres (if indeed they ARE two different genres at all - that is a subject for debate, but it does not affect the merge) are too similar to warrant having two separate pages on Wikipedia. See merging and moving pages for more details on the reasons for merging articles. Please post your comments here. Mushin 15:19, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I am right in between. I actually do think that Jungle and DnB are the same, but I also believe that there are a lot of people who don't agree... so it's a tough call. As you can see in the talk page of Jungle music, I initially suggested the merge, and I tacitly support the suggestion. But I also have to express my understanding towards those who firmly believe the two are seperate - even though they're wrong (jokes). Themindset 17:30, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Just read your arguments at the Jungle music talk page and I agree completely. The jungle article contributes much less than drum and bass. Regardless of whether the two terms mean exactly or very similar things, they would coexist quite happily (and a lot more neatly) if they were merged. Mushin 19:01, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I say merge them and include a section on the debate regarding their differences Frantik 08:45, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * If someone chooses to merge, please be diligent. There has been a lot of good info added to the Jungle music article recently, that explores the origins from the Rage club era. It would be a shame to lose such great content. Themindset 18:39, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed with Themindset. I confess my instinctive reaction to this suggestion was a "no", for the following basic reason: many people insist they are different, and it's long been my view that differences of opinion need to be handled by discussion within articles, rather than by the presence/non-presence of articles.  Redirecting jungle to d&b seemed to be to be implicitly supporting the POV that the two are identical via the structure of wikipedia itself.  However, having looked at the current jungle article, read this debate, and reflected, I agree with Themindset entirely.  It's not serving any real purpose by being separate - although there is still non-duplicated content in there which would need to be duly incorporated into the d&b article.


 * Which leads to my only other real point - length and complexity. Adding jungle, with all its content, to the d&b article is just going to make it longer and wordier.  Even before this merge issue arose, I was starting to ponder if the d&b article was outgrowing itself.  For example -- might it be a better idea to have an article called "History of Drum'n'bass", which could go into considerable detail, and have the section in the main article say "Main article: History of drum'n'bass" followed by a summarised version, just a paragraph or two?  This would allow for detailed coverage of the history, the current breadth of styles and global scene, etc, without the main article getting too overwhelming.  I suppose this is opening a whole new can of worms though... Stevekeiretsu 17:47, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


 * So far no objections. It should probably be left longer though, just to make sure, but most likely the merge will happen. There is indeed a lot of good material on the jungle article, and I think it may be quite a difficult merge. I'd appreciate any help you or others can offer, based on the fact you probably have more knowledge on the subject matter than I do. Mushin 10:51, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I go with Themindset. It's exact origins is better described here than in the Drum & Bass article. It goes on about Jungle Techno, terms we used way back. It probably could be contained in one article but the opening on the Drum & Bass for instance with Roni Size - IMO some of those guys were not the original pioneers of Jungle - perhaps Drum & Bass, yes. It was the Ibiza lot in 1991, things that haven't been mentioned yet. Link > - Revolt


 * I disagree. They are fairly different styles of music, even with a huge crossover in the middle. Jungle had a big ragga influence. DnB is more technical and "electronic" than Jungle. If there is vocal, it tends to be more melodic than rap-style. Jungle is more down n dirty and raw. I also think it tends to have a higher BPM and more breaks. As others have pointed out, the origins are fairly different, as are the top artists, and the audiences are too, quite often. Trxi 03:41, 30 November 2005 (UTC)


 * All of the terms you used to describe the differences (besides BMP, which you are incorrect about) are totally subjective. The fact is there is no objective difference between a jungle and drum & bass tune.  --Frantik 14:17, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


 * "totally subjective"? sound like you're trying to steamroll Trxi's points without providing any counter arguments. --MilkMiruku 18:20, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


 * There is no objective way to figure out which track is more "down n dirty and raw" than another. I've discussed this topic literally for years.  There is nothing that separates jungle from drum and bass.  They are the same genre with two names.  Since there are so many styles of dnb, some people tend to think certain types are jungle and others are dnb.  I have an LTJ Bukem mix from NYE 1993 where music most people would think of as "old skool jungle" is being referred to by the DJ (Conrad) as "Drum and Bass".  There is no concrete, agreed upon objective difference between the genres.  I'm not trying to steamroll as much as state the facts.  The Ragga/Dancehall influence does not define jungle... using a ragga sample in an otherwise dnb track does not make it jungle.  Using cut up drums with clownstep bass doesn't make it jungle.  You can find the ragga classic "Limb By Limb (DJ SS Mix)" on the 1995 CD "[Drum and Bass selection 5]" along with a tune from "Johnny Jungle".  If that doesn't make it clear that Jungle and Drum and Bass are the same thing I don't know what does.  --Frantik 15:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


 * You're right, it is somewhat subjective, and as I am not a trained musician, I don't have the terminology. However, I don't think you can point at a couple of tracks and say that because one is defined as Jungle, and the other as DnB, and they sound similar, that that means the two genres are the same. I can point at a multitude of tracks that would imply exactly the opposite. And you blow your own argument out of the water by saying "using a ragga sample in an otherwise dnb track does not make it jungle". You're absolutely right. And if you can define what is "otherwise [a] dnb track", you're acknowleging they're different things. To clarify some of my vague terminology, though, by "down n dirty", I was trying to grope towards the ragga/dancehall influence that others have mentioned. Which is a rhythmic style that sounds quite different to the usual dnb (vastly sped-up) dub-influenced sound.Trxi 03:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * you're acknowleging they're different things. No he's not, he's simply acknowledging that some people consider jungle as a shortform for oldskool/ragga - an opinion that is only held by a small (and usually less educated), but significant minority in the scene. Themindset 04:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * "the origins are fairly different, as are the top artists". I don't believe this is the case at all. I been to "jungle" raves where Bukem's Horizons was played (DJ SL at Jungle Fever), and "drum n bass" events where "jungle" tunes where played (Super Sharp Shoota at Origins of the Dark Black in Brighton). I'm not suggesting that there aren't musical differences but that their roots are the same although the scene fragmented much like hardcore did into happy hardcore and jungle/dnb. Grooverider, Fabio, Bukem, SS, Brockie etc would play at the same raves in the Midlands. Many of drum n bass's audience were new to the scene when Bukem broke big, although there were always people who had been into the music since 1991 etc. In short I think the origins were the same, but the scene fragmented when there became enough people to warrant separate events.


 * i also disagree with the merge. there are already various articles for subgenres of dnb (jump-up, liquid funk, techstep, neurofunk, darkstep hardstep, drumfunk, intelligent, "clownstep") so i feel the "too similar to warrant having two separate pages" argument is invalid here. from what i understand, yes, jungle and dnb are similar in sound, but it doesn't take long to find verious sources stating common differences, primarily that fact that jungle has ragga and dancehall influences that dnb lacks --MilkMiruku 18:20, 4 December 2005 (UTC).


 * The articles you listed are indeed sub-genres that arose from DnB. However, if DnB originally developed from jungle music, then you cannot call jungle a sub-genre of DnB. The fact that these articles exist is irrelavant to the jungle/DnB debate. Mushintalk 02:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


 * i wouldn't call jungle a subgenre of dnb; i'd say dnb and it's related subgenres are an evolution of jungle. you say "The fact that these articles exist is irrelavant to the jungle/DnB debate." - i agree on that as my point was actually in relation to you saying "too similar to warrant having two separate pages on Wikipedia" --MilkMiruku 01:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * On another note, whether or not the merge happens, there needs to be some cleaning up of the DnB-related articles. It needs to be made clear that there are apparently two conflicting views (either the genres are the same, or they are not the same). I don't know which of these views is held by the majority of people, but I think it should be noted in the main articles. At the moment, they all describe DnB and jungle as being the same thing. But if people are disagreeing with that fact, why has it never been mentioned before now? Mushintalk 02:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


 * "they all describe DnB and jungle as being the same thing" - i disagree. there are already numerious instances on each pages that describe a difference.


 * from the jungle article: "Some associate jungle with material from the first half of the 1990s which is commonly based on irregular beats and simple bass lines, and see Drum and Bass as essentially succeeding jungle with the late 1990s post-techstep developments such as regular breakbeats and increasingly complex bass lines. Others use jungle as a shorthand for ragga jungle, a specific sub-genre within the broader realm of drum and bass." and "DJs and Producers aiming to project what was dubbed a more "intelligent" sound began to adopt the phrase "drum and bass" to differentiate their music from the predominantly Dancehall influenced Jungle sound. Whilst Jungle music relied on a limited set of breakbeats and stripped down bass-heavy melodies for its trademark sound, drum and bass producers began to experiment with synth-based drum patterns, more diverse breakbeat samples, and more jazz-influenced musical elements"


 * from the dnb article: "By 1995, a counter movement to the ragga style was emerging, dubbed "intelligent" jungle by the music press, and embodied by LTJ Bukem and his Good Looking label." and "At the same time that intelligent jungle appeared, the ragga jungle sound mutated into a more stripped-down, hard percussive style known as Hardstep. Simultaneously, certain producers developed as more hiphop and funk influenced sister style known as Jump-Up"


 * i agree that both articles are a mess, and i'd put the effort in to clean them up so they were more consice and informative (and also in accordance to the WP:MOS) if it were not for the merge tag that was sitting on them right now --MilkMiruku 01:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay then, so not "all" the instances describe them as being the same thing, but the introductory paragraphs on some of the main articles do. And IMHO that would have the greatest influence on anyone reading the articles.


 * The reason the merge tag is still there is that some people expressed the view that the genres are indeed the same. Whether this is true or not, I'm really not disputing that at all. I'm just unsure what would be the best course of action, seen as a consensus on the issue has not been reached.


 * If I had to suggest what should be done now, I would say that there's been too much objection to go ahead with the merge. There have been arguments for and against it, and I've respected both. My thoughts at the moment are that it will be okay, as long as the following agenda can be carried out:
 * There must be a consensus on all articles relating to DnB/jungle, regarding what these genres are. As far as I can see now, that means: DnB evolved from jungle; DnB is considered by some to be very similar or indeed the same thing as jungle; some consider DnB and jungle to be two different styles.
 * For instance on Jungle music it currently says "Jungle music (or just Jungle) is a genre of electronic music also known as drum and bass" - this should be reworded to something along the lines of "Jungle music (or just Jungle) is a genre of electronic music considered by many to be the same as Drum and bass. Others consider Jungle to have distinct differences from DnB, such as....etc".
 * This is just a proposal. I know it will probably take a fair bit of rewording and careful thought to carry out. I'd still like to hear what both sides have to say on this idea for a compromise. Hopefully this will be acceptable for everyone involved! Mushintalk 01:58, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the best course of action would be to merge them and have a separate article on the debate. However, there is ample evidence that they are the same genre (such as cds labeled as DnB with tunes that fit the common definitions of jungle).. The article on Wikipedia should seek to END THE CONFUSION that so many people have over this topic, not continue to promote misinformation.  The longer you listen to Dnb the more you realize that jungle is the same thing.  I produce drum and bass and can tell you there is nothing on a technical level that separate them. For example, the oringal Champion Sound (from 1994 or whatever).. is it dnb or jungle?  it's got a two step beat and hoover basses.. but it has a ragga sample and comes from 1994. --Frantik 03:29, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, as I said, I don't have any technical knowledge of DnB. So in that respect you guys know a lot more than I do. I'm really not sure where this should go from here. I agree that the article should end the confusion, but at the same time it must have NPOV. And that really means that either one view is written down in the article (if it can be proved it's definitely correct), or that both views are given a mention in the article. Here is some info on which views should be presented in the article (given by Jimbo Wales:
 * If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
 * If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
 * If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.
 * Mushintalk 04:02, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * One problem regarding commonly accepted reference texts is that there are very few reference texts on drum and bass, and especially not regarding this issue. --Frantik 02:40, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * "However, there is ample evidence that they are the same genre (such as cds labeled as DnB with tunes that fit the common definitions of jungle)". i'd seriously advise against using compilations cd titles as the basis of defining musical genres. they tend to use a well-known or catch-all terms while covering other genres at the same time. i've found the best source for music genre definitions tend to be either a) music reviews b) music history books and c) interviews with artists/djs/producers in the relevant scene. in reply to Frantik's msg directly above; i don't exactly see how you can say that given that this article already lists two books specifically on the history of dnb, plus various dnb magazines.


 * 80.189.211.249 mentioned a release on Ibiza Records . i've the latest copy of knowledge mag sitting next to me and it contains an interview with paul "ibiza" chambers where is is put the question "How have you notived drum & bass events changing over the years?" and replies "I've seen a lot change over the years. About five years ago I noticed that the MCs had gained a lot more power in the scene. With MC Convention  running successfully for over three years I could see the scene evolving yet again. It had come to my attention that not all ravers wanted to listen to noisy tracks all night long - they want to hear music with vocals, feeling and soul. Another issue that came to my attention was people's interpretation of modern-day jungle music. Some ravers are getting confused, thinking that if you put a ragga vocal samble over a d&b track you have jungle music. Those were two major factors that let me to bring back Jungle Splash  eleven years after its creation. I want to give people the real deal when it comes to jungle music. Don't get it twisted."


 * re Champion Sound; what genres a track is, just as things in the real world, isn't always as clear cut as black or white, jungle or dnb, etc. some tracks simlply fall between genres or can be described as proto- to a new genre. --MilkMiruku 02:50, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The thing is, any track that is called jungle can be classified as drum and bass as well. I did some digging on discogs.. so I shall lay out my case:


 * [Breakdown Records] released a series of 5 double cds in 1994 and 1995 called Drum and Bass Selection     These CDs contain many of the popular tunes, or "anthems" of the time, spanning various styles of early drum and bass.  On the earlier volumes you can find the lighter side (what would be come intelligent and jazz step) with Engineers Without Fears - Spiritual Aura and Roni Size - It's A Jazz Thing, as well as the darker classic Renegade - Terrorist.  As ragga became more popular, you see more tracks such as Dead Dred  - Dred Bass and Cutty Ranks - Limb By Limb (DJ SS Mix)


 * Breakdown records also released another CD entitled [Telepathy - Jungle Dons - Dub Plate Special] which has many of the exact same producers featured on the Drum and Bass Selection cds


 * At the same time, [Street Tuff Records] records was putting out CDs entitled Jungle Hits   where you can find almost exclusively ragga tunes such as UK Apachi  &  Shy FX  - Original Nuttah.  A remix of Uncle 22 - 6 Million Ways To Die can be found on both the Jungle Hits CDs and the Drum and Bass Selection CDs


 * Looking at the names of all the various compilation albums from the era, it is clear "jungle" was the preferred term for the genre at the time, though the term "drum and bass" certainly existed. Both terms could be used to describe the sped up, chopped up breakbeat sound.  Many of the CDs with jungle in the title contain mostly, or only ragga tracks, which makes it seem that the ragga fans preferred the term jungle over drum and bass.  By 1996, the term jungle is almost gone, and tracks previously found only on jungle compilations are included on drum and bass cds.


 * -- Frantik 13:11, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


 * a) you note "which has many of the exact same producers featured on the Drum and Bass Selection cds" - are you implying from your argument that those producers could only ever have produced one specific genre of music?


 * b) i'm not actually arguing against the fact that people have at times used "drum and bass" as a catch-all term to refer to several styles of music including jungle, but as i noted above, Jump-Up, liquid funk, techstep, neurofunk, darkstep hardstep, drumfunk, intelligent and clownstep already have their own articles but you haven't yet explained why you are specifically so intent on merging jungle music and drum and bass, even though i've pointed out there already exists multiple noted differences on both articles between jungle and other styles of dnb.


 * c) using the same argument as above (that "dnb" has been used as a catch-all term) i'd again argue against using compilation titles as references for arguing for or against a merge. also i've already quoted an interview with a prominent producer who is also involved in a jungle specific event relating to hiw views on the difference between jungle and dnb and i'm very much sure i can dig out more given time (i've just moved flats and have very limited net access right now). not to sound aggressive, and i'm assuming good faith, but can i ask the reasoning behind your apparent preference to give authority to compilation titles over cited references? --MilkMiruku 11:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Paul Ibiza is clearly referring to ragga jungle when he says jungle. He is a ragga producer, and ragga fans have always prefered the term jungle over drum and bass.   He is asked about how drum and bass has changed, and he says that putting a ragga vocal over a [modern] dnb track doesn't make it [ragga] jungle.   Why would he even mention his desire to return to jungle (in the ragga jungle sense) when asked about how drum and bass has changed if dnb and jungle weren't interchangable?  You can cherry pick quotes all day where people express their opinion regarding the matter, but it still doesn't mean there is a significant difference between jungle and drum and bass.  The only real difference I can see is that there is no such thing as "Ragga Drum and Bass" though every "Ragga Jungle" track i've heard could also be called "Drum and Bass".


 * Re: compilation titles: They are too are a verifiable source, and their names reflect of the opinions of the people who released them.  For example, Ibiza records doesn't use the term drum and bass in any of their compilation names, and we know its owner prefers the term jungle.  By looking at many compilation titles one can gather the opinions of many people.  The older titles tended to use the term jungle more often than dnb, but both terms existed.  The term jungle simply fell out of fashion at the same time the genre took a significant change in direction.


 * For anyone who opposes the merge, I have a simple task for you: Give one example of a track that is jungle, but does NOT fit the description of drum and bass.  Or, just describe a characteristic of jungle that drum and bass cannot have.


 * --Frantik 04:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I think Frantik is on a bit of a tangent here; much as I like the guy, your current point is a bit of a red herring, I think? The issue is not really whether or not jungle and d&b are separate and distinct genres/music forms.  As such all this time debating that is a bit of a waste.  I'm sure, given a bit of time, I could find an example on Wikipedia of two things which are quite obviously different to some degree, yet handled in a single article for expediency.  I don't have that time, but lets imagine that the Soviet T34 and T34A tanks were both covered under the T34 article, with a section saying "the T34A was the second revision of the deisgn, and had the following changes..."  See what I mean?  The nature of the real-world distinction is not important here, only whether it is best covered by having two articles, or best covered by having one article explaining that distinction.


 * Given that this merge discussion has in itself ably proved the diversity of opinion on the subject, I'd have thought the debate over the difference (or lack of it) between d&b and jungle is something that needs to be covered in the resultant merged article - as indeed it is currently covered in both articles at present. It's not as if we can thrash out the debate here, declare a 'winner', use that to make the merge decision, and then forget about it with the merged article.  At the end of the day - as you yourself have said above - this is always going to be a completely subjective issue.  No amount of talk page debate will change that it's a completely subjective judgement call; ergo, there will always be different POVs; ergo, these various POVs will always need due discussion within the article!


 * Or, in short: we don't need to decide/prove whether or not jungle and d&b are different/separate - we need to decide/prove whether or not they are best handled in different/separate articles on Wikipedia :)


 * Stevekeiretsu 17:47, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I didn't say the issue is subjective, I said the differences described by some were totally subjective. Anyone who thinks jungle is different than DnB has some vague dscriptions about the differences..  If they do name something objective, they are ususally wrong (such as claiming dnb does not have heavily syncopated elements).  In reality, the words mean the same exact thing, so why bother having two pages on the same subject?  There should just be one page.  The issue of jungle and dnb being different can then be covered on this one page, instead of the current two.
 * --Frantik 00:42, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * They are the same and the two should be merged. 67.161.65.179 06:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

This is getting quite out of hand... an easy way to sort all this out is to actually showcase the different styles with REFERENCE to tunes... so without further ado...


 * ragga-jungle: UK Apachi + Shy FX - Original Nuttah.
 * jungle: A-Zone - Calling The People ..or.. Ray Keith - Terrorist.
 * drum&bass: J Majik - Spac.
 * intelligent d&b: anything post-97 by LTJ Bukem.
 * hard drum&bass: Pendulum - Another Planet (billions of others...).
 * clownstep: Ed Rush + Optical - Pacman ..or.. Shimon + Andy C - Bodyrock.
 * drum&bossa: Marky + XRS - LK.


 * i found it really confusing that there was ANY argument at all for mergin jungle + drum&bass. So distinct from each other it's ridiculous.


 * well maybe i should add a lil bit of blurb about each style as it stands...
 * - ragga jungle is a lot less 'musical' as my parents would say. Lots of sub-bass, loud, harsh 'toasting' style ragga mc's over the top and cut-up breaks, generally around 155-170bpm.
 * - jungle is a term that refers to tunes that use the sampled cut-up breaks and similar basslines of ragga-jungle but normally missing the (generally unintelligible) patois vocals of Jamaican/South London mc's.
 * - drum&bass is much more musical, (it is what the general populace consider ALL types of drum&bass to be), 170-180bpm trakcs with melodic bass and lead lines, simpler drum patterns (the snares in drum&bass are the most obvious difference, generally 'on' the beats for harder grooves = more people can dance to it).
 * - intelligent d&b (aka atmospheric d&b) is a phrase which epitomises LTJ Bukem's tracks. Lots of pads and synths and fx which create a whole atmosphere and which would normally have singing as opposed to mc-ing.
 * - hard drum&bass is a whole other kettle o' fish. With distorted bass noises from gut wrenching synths to pure resonant sub-bass. The same style of drum pattern as standard drum&bass but with snares and kicks distorted and accented so as to make one wince. Can include jungle-style breaks layered WITH the simpler drum sequences. (see Tramen break)
 * - clownstep is called such because of it's wonky basslines. Generally speaking they are VERY simple tunes, sometimes being just the drums and bassline. Often the use of 'swing' or 'shuffled' beats will be used to give a twist to the tunes.
 * - drum&bossa was coined when there was hgue success of Brazilian drum&bass. typically with latin style guitar/chord patterns, smooth vocals and syncopated beats (but over ridden with the trademark drum&bass kicks and snares of course).


 * The easiest way for newbies to define drum&bass from jungle is to listen to the drum pattern, if there's a big fat snare that you could set a metronome by, then it's drum&bass. If there is no fcukin way yr going to be able to dance to it - it's jungle.


 * Comparing the two is like saying that Jazz and Soul are the same. Sure there are cross over tracks, but you can't say that "hey they both have bass, keys, drums, vocals.... oh my god!! They're the same thing!!" ... doesn't work, does it?!


 * At the end of the day, track down the tunes I've posted (you all know how... ;) and see the difference for yourselves.
 * DON'T MERGE THEM
 * cheers guys --Tactik 15:39, December 29 2005


 * "if there's a big fat snare that you could set a metronome by, then it's drum&bass. If there is no fcukin way yr going to be able to dance to it - it's jungle."


 * This is a common misconception. The entire genre of Drumfunk is definitely drum and bass and the beats are not metronome-like (ie two step).


 * What makes Ray Keith's Terrorist jungle but not drum and bass? Give one thing.. any aspect of the tune that would prevent it from being considered drum and bass.  (and lack of 2step beat isn't one them.)  Terrorist isn't even that rhythmically complex; I can certainly dance to it.


 * You point to the differences between soul and jazz and being similar to the differences dnb and jungle. On the soul music page, one can find "Soul music is differentiated by its use of gospel-music devices, its greater emphasis on vocalists, and its merging of religious and secular themes." What differentiates jungle from drum and bass?  Nobody has posted a concrete difference and I suspect no one will because there isn't one.


 * --Frantik 02:18, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


 * First things first, as Socrates said "language is ambiguous"... so let's not get narky about sentence structure or simplifying for the sake of saving space.
 * "What makes Ray Keith's Terrorist jungle but not drum and bass?" The first would be the ridiculously obvious use of the chopped up amen break (jungle can be repetetive, yes). The other classic breaks that are chopped up and sampled OVER the most famous JUNGLE break of them all add to the Junglistic style.
 * You refer to this genre called DRUMFUNK, which I have to admit is a relatively new one on me... You are of course referring to a style of drum&bass that uses the same highly syncopated/cut-up techniques as jungle does. It is my personal opinion that Drumfunk is not a valid genre at all (it seems people have gone nuts sub-classifying their creations). Before Drumfunk existed as a term, that style of music was referred to as jungle style drum&bass. It sits on a crossover point.. it doesn't create a new area.
 * The fact that you site this as a reference point in this debate only displays ignorance.


 * Look, if you guys can't hear the difference between the first two tracks i listed and all the others then I guess there is no point debating this any further. Some would probably say that everything in the universe should be on the one page... seeing as it's all made of Qanta.


 * Just for posterity, I am yet to meet a SINGLE person in the whole drum&bass or jungle scenes (from London to Australia) that think they are the same. (we are talking of 10 years involvement with both sides).


 * Proudly posted by TACTIK Inc. --220.238.134.13 18:06, January 18 2006


 * BTW Frantik, just listened to some of your Jungle tunes, not bad... (whoops, i mean "old sKool drum'N'bass"???) --220.238.134.13 18:12, January 18 2006


 * yet to meet a SINGLE person in the whole drum&bass or jungle scenes (from London to Australia) that think they are the same. Evidently you've never met Bad Company, Aquasky, or Digital... just some of the DnB DJ/Producers I've brought to Montreal, who have all used the term jungle-drum n bass, and claimed that they were one and the same. Themindset 20:24, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * this debate borders on ridiculous. Here's one of the first things I learned about music and sound ( I am Tactik's partner in an audio company called acoustic weaponry.) trying to use language as an accurate description of it is like trying to use taste as a refernce for Van Gough. The only thing that works is to get an understanding of music, and listen to examples for yourself. If you listen to Tactiks examples above it is pretty clear where the difference lies. Or lets try this one-

Congo Natty- Police in helicopter (jungle) Dillinja and Skibadee- Twist em out (dnb) Before you bother to comment with any kind of rebuttle.... go listen to them. They are clearly different genres. They have similar sounds and cross over points with each other but so do Rock and Country. To themindset- actually I have met two of those (being Bad Company and Aquasky) and if those are the only three names you've got I suggest you stop dropping names. You are not the only one who works in the industry. You dont win points by name dropping and big noting yourself. [Strategem]

utter, utter bollocks guys. on so many counts I can't be arsed to get into. (Digest)

(but yeah they should be merged)

Accessing drum and bass: Purchasing section
This section is not appropriate for wikipedia. This has turned into a linkfest, and it's not becoming of an encyclopedia at all... I intend to remove it soon, please discuss if you disagree with this. Themindset 19:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed, this section should be removed as wikipedia is not a a mirror or a repository of links. Mushin 20:02, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Also, the list of drum n bass producers should probably be moved to its own artcile for the sake of the article's flow. Themindset 21:03, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Removed the list of links from the Purchasing section of the article. I have included this section below, either just for reference or in case it can be incorporated into a relevant page somewhere else (do not just paste this back into the article without discussing here first - there were no arguments to the original discussion, which is why the material is being removed). If no sensible use is suggested for this material then it can be deleted at a later date. Mushin 18:31, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

* http://www.atsdigital.com/ * http://www.beatport.com/ * http://www.blazar.net/ * http://bleep.com/ * http://www.breakbeatscience.com * http://www.breakbeat.co.uk/ * http://www.chemical-records.co.uk/ * http://www.defcomstore.co.uk/ * http://www.dogsonacid.com/mp3/ - also on beatport.com * http://www.ganjakru.co.uk/ * http://shop.easyrecords.net/ * http://shop.hospitalrecords.com/ * http://www.imorecords.com/ * http://www.itunes.com/ * http://www.juno.co.uk/ * http://www.karmadownload.com/ * http://www.kinematicrecordings.com/ * http://www.movementradio.com/ * http://www.mediapitstop.com * http://www.cc-radio.net/index.php * http://www.darkland-agency.com * http://www.shadybrain.net/ * http://www.strictly-digital.com/ * http://www.tovmusic.com/ * http://www.trackitdown.net/ * http://www.vibrationrecords.com/ * http://www.vitaminic.com/main/electronica_dance/ * http://www.darkland-recordings.net/ * http://www.epitonic.com/ * http://www.exegene.com/ * http://www.karmadownload.com/genre/?Drum%20&%20Bass * http://www.dnbsource.com/ * http://www.redeyerecords.co.uk/ * http://www.rykomusic.com/ (certificate 18) * http://www.movementinsound.co.uk/ * http://www.back2basicsrecords.com * http://www.djdownload.com

Drum and bass category and footer
It seems before DnB was under the breakbeat category and had the breakbeat footer.. DnB isn't really a subgenre of Breaks as much as an offshoot so I made a new category and footer. I also added the footer to all the subgenres listed on the footer -- Frantik 16:20, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


 * good move. i've added the template to WikiProject Electronic music and have removed techstep and neurofunk from the breakbeat footer --MilkMiruku 18:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Merge Poll - Merging Drum and bass & Jungle music articles into the Drum and bass article
Please register your opinion by starting your comment with either Merge or Don't merge. This is not a binding poll, just to get an idea of what the distribution of opinion is. Feel free to follow your vote with a concise explanation/reasoning. Pls keep arguments/disussions in the other sections of this talk page. Don't forget to sign your comments with ~.


 * Merge with Jungle Music My idea is that you simply pick the one that covers more territory, probably drum and bass, and then put a large section about gabba and jungle in there. I like jungle better myself, and I wish to God someone was making drum and bass with some ass in it anymore, but Jungle isn't a widely known term stateside. We don't even have discoteques here in small towns. foxgemini


 * Merge with Jungle music, have Jungle music redirect to DnB article and address the debate adequately there. Themindset 18:25, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Merge ditto themindset --Frantik 12:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Merge jungle into DnB. Mushintalk 16:47, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Merge ditto themindset Bushing 11:13, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Merge ditto themindset illWill 12:11, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


 * DON'T Merge it seems like some people claiming to be drum&bass heads have never heard proper jungle. There is no way you could confuse the two. (tactik - jungle AND drum&bass producer) 20 December 2005


 * DON'T Merge the sound of jungle is distinct, based on a heavily syncopated rhythm. Drum + bass is if anythin"g rhythmically much simpler. (flak - jungle head) 18:39, 20 December 2005
 * The previous two comments were both made by 220.238.134.13. Mushintalk 12:17, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The previous two comments were made by two friends using the same computer (tactik) 30 December 2005


 * Merge ditto themindset. And please don't tell me that I'm "claiming" to be a drum&bass head and haven't heard jungle; cheap ad hominem attacks aren't helpful here, and a moment's perusal of the debate above will show you that people have heard both, they just feel there is no unarguable, black and white distinction between the two. Stevekeiretsu 16:28, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * oh but there is... check my post in the section above, listen to the actual music. Are you a head? What are peoples backgrounds on here?? For posterity - I've been making jungle and drum&bass for nearly ten years. tactik 16:09, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * DON'T Merge The two are related but are musically different. I think as part of wikipedia it is important to make the distinctions among subgenres - right now the argument concerns just dnb, and jungle, but there are other musically similar subgenres that different enough to note their differences. This includes Tech-step, dark-step, ragga, etc. The idea of an encyclopedia is to give the most accurate information possible. The only reason I would think merging would be ok is if there is not enough distinct information posted on both topics as of now. However as new writings distinguish the two, the should definitely be seperate. **The previous comments were made by User:72.129.121.140.


 * Merge. Jungle is a drum'n'bass history. Although jungle is separate enough, it's a drum'n'bass subgenre from the modern point of view. — Anrie Nord 11:21, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Merge. I've been following this discussion for a while, and I'm convinced. Also, the jungle music article is not good enough to justify the stopping of a merge. Even though there are musical differences, jungle music is an important part of drum & bass history. Yes, drum & bass history. NuclearFunk 18:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * DONT Merge they are similar but not the same. Trance and Dance are diff, Psy and Goa are diff, jungle and dnb are diff. as such they deserve seperate pages. Basketball and Netball both have two teams competing to put a ball through a hoop on the top of a pole, both are played on a court. All other differences are cosmetic. BUT THAT STILL DOESNT MAKE THEM THE SAME SPORT DOES IT?


 * DONT MERGE While they sometimes are incorrectly used to mean the same things, they are very different. I'd recommend taking a listen to Ishkur's Guide to Electronic music; while it has some notable flaws and a good deal of healthy sarcasm, it does a pretty good job of laying out the genres ( http://www.di.fm/edmguide/edmguide.html ). I'd have to agree with Tactik. I'm quite fond of all electronic music, but I've always had a sweet spot for Jungle. In my mind, Jungle is a more general term that covers DnB, and other genres such as Ragga. Wikipedia should be precise and correct. As NuclearFunk said, "there are musical differences". Drum and Bass is such a monstrous genre, adding Jungle to this page would make it unmanageable. Wikipedia should be perfect. I'm serious. If two genres are approximately similar, should we combine the two or distinguish them? Many people are going to be exposed to DnB and Jungle for the first time via this wikipedia page. If we merge DnB and Jungle, I think we should merge OS and Windows. Over ninety percent of the time when people refer to an operating system, they are referring to Windows. Does that mean that they should be used interchangeably? Of course not! (I, by the way, am a happy Ubuntu user) michaelb


 * DONT MERGE Drum & bass developed from jungle so how can it be the same thing? Andy hoffman 05:47, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * ""DONT MERGE"" Jungle is normally full of really cut up Amen breaks........ drum n bass is a whole different animal. Tobler1 06:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * MERGE What is the difference between hard rock and heavy metal? Between grunge and punk? I can hear it, but can I explain it to you? I understand that Jungle usually means tracks that are older and lusher, and Drum and Bass usually means tracks that newer and more digital, but wouldn't that make High Contrast and London Elektricity more Jungle than DnB? In reality, the terms are used interchangably, and wikipedia should reflect that fact and avoid this pointless disputing. xod, 19 Feb 06.


 * Merge Add a subsection with the opinion that jungle is a seperate genre. The only reason people consider it a different genre is they associate it with music that was around when it was called jungle. It's still all drum'n'bass. Seen! --Nick Vaughn 18:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Merge There are clear differences, and this is normal for the evolution of a genre. If jungle was instead called 'old skool dnb', it would make this so much easier.  Jungle to me (opinion) refers to the old style of dnb.  Not the sound from 92 but from when dnb was making its way mainstream, 95-97.  The word 'jungle' sounded better in newsprint than 'drum'n'bass' (end of opinion).  I refer to the Metal page.  'Heavy metal' and 'nu-metal' have clear, distinct differences, but are both included in the same page, under different headings.  This is because despite the differences, both can be described as 'metal'.  Both also have their own page, but are included in the Metal category.  Superbo 14:49, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't Merge I think that they are simialar but lots of genres are simmialar. I still call somethings Jungle that I would never call D&B. Rex the first 00:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Jungle <> Drum & Bass
Jungle is to Drum & Bass as what Rap is to Hip Hop. Precursors that lead to new but distinctly different styles. --208.151.246.192 23:43, December 10, 2005
 * And Rap is a disambiguation page for Hip hop music imagine that.. just like how jungle and dnb should be the same page. Frantik 00:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Not only that, but parent comment is simply wrong anyway. Rap is the style of vocal delivery, hiphop is the overall musical form (hence, it is possible to have hiphop tracks with no rapping) and, indeed, the broader culture other than music - (eg breaking, graffiti, fashion, etc... all part of hiphop culture)
 * Hip hop is in fact the culture, which includes four pillars: DJing, Rapping, Grafitti, and Breakdancing... AFAIK. Themindset 23:03, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Hip Hop is the culture.. Hip Hop music is the music ;) --Frantik 23:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * You guys are degressing - drum & bass is not a culture, but rave is. Rave encompasses more than just one musical style, just as does "hip-hop culture", for which the correct term should be Street Culture, or more arguably Urban Culture. Xenkut 04:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Objection to Merge Poll

 * Comment: to quote Straw polls; "Wikipedia is not a democracy, and, in general, voting is evil (and stupid). Decisions should be made by consensus decision making rather than a strict majority rule." and "Even if a large number of people vote for one option but some don't, this doesn't mean that that's the "outcome". It means some people are disagreeing, and that has to be addressed.". there's already a on-going debate above re the merge which has still not reached a conclusion, and there are only 4 people actively discussing this atm so the results of a poll wouldn't really have any form of validity even if you were just to class it as an informal survey. this is an issue that should and imo can be resolved using consensus and verifiable sources. is it time to look to Dispute resolution for help? --MilkMiruku 12:46, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Response to Comment: there is no official policy against taking a sample of opinion on talk pages. I think your attitude is disingenuous, and that this is due to the fact that you fear you are being railroaded - trust me, this is not the case. I just want to get an idea of the opinion-distribution of the editors involved in this article. Please participate, don't negotiate. Themindset 18:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * That was the impression I got - it is not a poll as such, just a simple way to guage the people's opinions on the issue. Mushintalk 14:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 * to summarise half of my original comment; even if this is an opinion poll, what's the point of that when there's only 4 people activly discussing this? the results are not really going to have any value. --MilkMiruku 16:53, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
 * More than four people have commented on the issue, so I think it would be useful to summarise each opinion here. Mushintalk 18:26, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Decisions should be made by consensus decision - I'd like to address a simple fact that's been overlooked... the decision to merge or not merge does not have an in-between. Quite simply we are either going to do it, or not. We can't do it halfway. And as much as there's a need to find compromises in most situations, there is no compromise in this one. Either it will be done, or it won't. Themindset 13:08, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 * obviously there has to be one of two outcomes, but the path we take needs to come from consensus based on discussion and verifiable sources, not polls where you're not allowed to make a comment and that appear to have been created to over-ride an on-going discussion. --MilkMiruku 20:42, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * You are allowed to make a comment, it is clearly stated at the beginning of the poll. It was just asked that you make arguments in another section (so as not to derail the purpose of that section). Please note that merge decisions are very similar to VFDs, which are done by vote - that's just the way things role up in this scene. Themindset 21:01, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I think i just made the jungle article obsolete
So i just took the best parts of the jungle article and put them in the drum and bass article. Does anyone have a problem with the way i did it? I think the way it is now the jungle article doesn't even need to exist. It is practically a stub and is tiny compared to the drum and bass article. it doesn't seem like anyone is interested in working on the jungle article anyways --Frantik 00:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. The jungle article does not have anything unique now, and should be replaced with a redirect to drum and bass. Mushintalk 01:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The Jungle scene is smaller than the drum&bass scene... They aren't the same. Why is this so difficult for you...
 * Soul and Funk
 * Rap and Hiphop
 * Jungle and D&B


 * each similar to the other, but different nonetheless... and each are distinct entities/genres.


 * you guys are screwy.


 * @Fran..."I think I just made a stupid joke"...tik
 * yr a tit. Tactik (comment actually from 210.50.236.183)


 * i think what you did was incredibly arrogant given the fact the debate above is still on-going. the articles size and the fact that you don't think "anyone is interested in working on the jungle article anyways" have no actual bearing on whether it should exist or not. i really can't be bothered with your attitude right now so i'm going to leave it atm, but i'd hope someone works on both articles at once to get the history and musicological distinction sorted out properly --MilkMiruku 18:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry for being a stick in the mud, but I felt I just HAD to change the drum&bass intro. It was absolute rubbish. For the first half it talked about Jungle (even referring to the differences between it and d&b), then contradicted itself and wrongly described attributes of BOTH genres. I re-did the d&b intro, starting with.... drum&bass, showing a derivation of genres and then putting the info inot a much more readable structure.
 * I have also re-instated the Jungle Music page and am currently working on it.


 * If you disagree with the current article and want to change it, then fine, but I don't think dismissing something which dozens of people have slowly worked towards for the past months as "absolute rubbish" and simply throwing it away is the best practice here. Especially not if your total rewrite itself contains hilarious nonsense like "The rivalry; Jungle (along with harder Drum&Bass styles) versus Intelligent Drum&Bass, exists to this day."  I'm sorry??  I'm in regular contact with folks from labels like Offkey (on the harder dnb side) and Covert Ops (the descendent of the 'intelligent' side), and I don't know anybody who considers there to be rivalry.  Wtf?  It's not that I wish to dismiss your opinions as invalid, but if you completely simply throw the current article in the bin and unilaterally replace it with your own POV, you can hardly complain when you're reverted. Stevekeiretsu 14:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * No need to apologise Steve, I won't hold yr opinion against you.
 * And what are you on about, I didn't junk any article?? You guys all complained about it being a Stub or repeated d&b info... what a load, I found 2, maybe 3 corresponding points.
 * A couple of us wrote a resource that was more informative, less confusing and more objective than the d&b article.
 * As for the 'rivalry' bit - I was referring to the fact that those that tend to like harder styles of d&b and jungle tend to vocally dislike "intelligent" versions of the aforementioned genres. I have myself personally slagged off weak arse, "seashell and unicorn" style drum&bass (hi Mr Bukem... you were good, once!)
 * do you USA guys have a Jungle scene over there? maybe that's where this all ends up... You guys don't have proper Jungle, maybe never did... but as per usual you want your view to be the world-view - (joke... kind of)


 * LOL, just spotted this. another person trying to discredit my contributions by saying I'm a USA guy so I wouldn't know anything about proper jungle.  For the last time... I'm in London.  you know.... where jungle begun....?   *chuckles* Stevekeiretsu 16:26, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

if you guys want to sort this out here's my Miranda-ICQ number :200663115 : if yr game enough ;P tactik 16:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Milkymuru - pls don't use inflammatory language like "arrogant" to refer to someone's edits when they were clearly done in good faith. The above debate was not on-going, it had petered out for quite a while. Frantik was bold and made the changes that the vast majority of us agreed to. There is a significant concensus that will stand by those edits. Themindset 20:43, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * i apologise for putting it like that, but there was definitly no consensus from the debate. there have been just about the same ammount of people voicing their thoughts for both sides of the argument although those for the merge have been more vocal about it. i honestly think that while there is an obviously a flow between the two styles that there is enough destinction beween jungle and the wider dnb sound to merir the existance of a seperate article for jungle, just as the many jungle sub-styles have articles of their own. why exactly is it that there is no push to merge hardstep, techstep, Jump-Up intelligent drum and bass and liquid funk into one article? --MilkMiruku 21:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Funny, but I actually predicted that you would say something like "there have been just about the same ammount of people voicing their thoughts for both sides", and that's why I started the poll. 8 votes by registered users in favour of merging, versus only 1 vote by registered users opposed to merging. The reason to merge is that jungle and dnb are synonymous in the scene, the ones you mention at the end of your comment are all sub-genres of jungle drum n bass. Themindset 02:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Lord of mercy, I think this is jsut more about vocal USA + Canadian opinions (Frantik and TheMindSet) vs UK opinions. And it didn't say you had to be a registered user to vote... btw.


 * Seeing as there HAS BEEN NO consensus, hence no decisions should be undertaken. No meeting point has been reached. how about erring on the side of caution and letting both pages exist. The d&b page is an absolute mess anyway. The informative stuff is hidden behind quite a load of bollocks (but more power to those trying to sort it out!!)
 * I rewrote almost the whole jungle article, I even had plenty of references (including bbc documentaries and original prodcuer interview excerpts) that supported the view that drum&bass came from jungle. I was unaware of copyright issues and MilkMiruku probably saved my arse by getting rid of them).
 * can you guys prodcue any refernces for yr POV?
 * All i have to say is that if you love + listen to tunes from that era (and I know Frantik does - respect)... you hear the word Jungle in a hell of a lot of songs, (listen to his mixes on switftlytilting.com), you hear people referring to "Junglists", "jungle", "Jungle will never die" etc..etc.. Ad Nauseum. You do NOT hear a lot of references to drum&bass... in fact if you can find even ONE Jungle tune that has the word drum&bass in it I'll be impressed.
 * yr point about jungle & drum&bass being synonymous in the scene is MAYBE true for your town, your scene, your country... doesn't make it true for the whole world (North Americans might be confused about Jungle... ??? is it a possiblity guys?!)
 * Mindset- you may have spent the best years of yr life editing articles and writing yr dissertation on Wikipedia... but I put effort in here too, I don't disrespect yr work.. don't disrespect mine.

tactik 15:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

There is a *expletive* load of tracks in the modern style that contain references to jungle and junglists. So that makes them "jungle"? I don't believe there is a difference. I've got quite a few tracks from the middle of the nineties, on jungle compilations or with jungle names, that mention drum & bass. I'll note them down when I have time.

What does a drum & bass listener refer to himself as? A drum&bassist, no, he's a "junglist" and his girlfriend is a "junglette". For heaven's sake, if Hype and the old guard all call it Drum & Bass or Jungle, as synonyms, doesn't that mean something? Only the ragga freak, rude bwoys seem to need to proclaim a difference between dnb and jungle.

The Frantic revert was disrespectful.

--Dustek 11:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

recent revert
I recently reverted to an older page, because some information was added to the history of dnb that said dnb comes from jungle, which is inaccurate. if anything, it should be placed in the dnb vs jungle section, not the dnb history. --Frantik 06:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * such a socket. really, you are... SO I guess the discussion is ongoing... the reality being that Jungle existed before drum&bass, and that the simplification of jungle gave drum&bass it's style and it's accurate name (which was nicked from old dub/dancehall toasters referring to stripped down dub tunes).


 * ps: who are you? what's your credibility here? where are you from? history? (not being sarcastic.. i want to know)


 * I want to sort this out, rather than have an edit war. --210.50.236.183 06:37, February 9 2006


 * "the reality being that Jungle existed before drum&bass"
 * unfortunately, that is not the reality. Drum and bass has been used since at least late 1993/early 1994 to describe music with cut up breaks and loud basslines.


 * Here is a sound clip of MC Conrad from New Years 1994 talking about drum and bass. The music that is playing consists of a think break and a cut up amen.  He called it dnb, and it sounds like dnb to me.     I suggest this clip be added to the dnb history, or in the dnb vs jungle section --Frantik 07:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The name evolved from jungle to dnb but describes the same breakbeat bassline 170 bpm genre. You will find references to dnb in 1994 tracks - but this refers to form of what was generally called jungle then. In the same way modern dnb tunes contain frequent references to jungle and junglists.

A reference to dnb in 1994 does not mean it was a seperate genre or had a seperate genesis. Just about every producer that has been active from 1990 till now has made tracks that were at first labelled jungle and are now called dnb. I do not agree that 'dnb' does not come from jungle (in terms of name change). If dnb is not the modern name of jungle than the merge of the articles was senseless. --Dustek 12:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "A reference to dnb in 1994 does not mean it was a seperate genre or had a seperate genesis. "
 * I only included it to show that dnb has been used since at least 1994 to describe the music that many people call jungle .. basically showing that jungle isn't a precursor to dnb. You have it exactly right though in that the music was mostly called jungle until the mid 90s. Thats what the article reflects now. --Frantik 09:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes exactly. In the early days it was predominantly referred to as jungle then, chronologically later, was predominantly referred to as drum and bass.  That much is pretty undeniable.  But this doesn't necessarily mean there was a style called jungle, which then developed into a style called drum and bass.  This could be one interpretation, and it's one which is already covered in the article:  Some associate "jungle" with older material from the first half of the 1990s (sometimes referred to as "jungle techno"), and see drum and bass as essentially succeeding jungle.  It's also quite possible that there's only one form of music, while the most popular terminology used to describe that changed (also covered in the article).


 * Remember folks there is no "truth" with these sort of issues; if your opinion is not covered, the Wikipedia solution is not to rewrite the article to state your POV as fact, it is to add your POV alongside the others already there, written fairly neutrally. (Obviously "this is more common", "it is generally held" type phrases are fine, but "this is wrong, and some idiots say this" are not).  As I've said elsewhere, I'm constantly disappointed that the junglist contributors to dnb have a tendency to get wound up in semantic arguments which are ultimately unanswerable ("what is jungle", "what is neurofunk") instead of just writing the article to cover all the different views, and then getting on with filling in the blanks (see: any of the red links to labels or artists). Stevekeiretsu 13:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Funny thing is Stevie... we ARE telling you what the difference is.. and there IS truth to the matter, it's just no-one's listening.
 * If it doesn't bother you what they're called, if it's 'beneath' you.. then indulge our petty Junglist fancies, m'lord...


 * Have you even seen how messy the d&b page is, as a useful resource it's shocking. If you guys can't even get together and create a proper drum&bass article then wtf are you doing on here?


 * AND.. you can stop pulling out the remark "it's categorised as X or Y.." cause I jsut saw BASS JUNGLE USA labelled as "Dance, Electronica, Rap, Rock/Pop, Soul/R&B, Urban Soundtrack, Bass, Bass Collections"... rudeness.


 * If you really think there is a single objective truth when discussing something as subjective as musical categorisation, then... bleh... I give up. Anyone who's studied any sort of, well anything arts/language related (literature, history, philosophy, politics, sociology, postmodernism, anthropology, musicology, etc) knows that there really isn't.  Then again, since you are unable to even figure out how to indent your contributions properly, so as to make this discussion easy to follow, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.


 * Also I'm not saying it's beneath me to decide on "the truth", I'm saying it is against the principles behind Wikipedia, which are to cover all points of view neutrally, and also a waste of time, when there are huge gaps elsewhere in the jungle/dnb content.


 * All this "Stevie", "m'lord" stuff is pathetic. You're knocking us for not making a "proper" article, wtf are the we doing here, but I fail to see how assuming a sneering, mock-servile tone of voice is supposed to helpful.  This has turned into a complete playground.  IT IS AN ENCYCLOPAEDIA FFS.  If you can cope with discussing in a remotely mature fashion, and grasp oh-so-tricky academic concepts such as subjectivity and perspective then fine, but if you're stuck on the name-calling and can't get your head around the notion of two differing but equally valid opinions, then jesus christ, I've had enough Stevekeiretsu 17:34, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Stevie has shamed me with his mature comments above (correct indent-procedures are obviously important to you, I apologise).
 * The "m'lord" comment was because you referred to this argument as 'semantic' - basically of no obvious worth to you, beneath you... Why couldn't you follow that thread?
 * I agree with Stevie completely that there is no 'Socratic truth' here... I guess all I want is to represent the views of the many (not all) d&b and jungle fans out there that DO agree. To do this we must have a Jungle page that isn't constantly at risk from North American viewpoints. tactik 07:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * North American viewpoints? You realise I'm in London right?  Anyway.  I realise I have been a bit rude on here, and I apologise for that.  Let's cut out the sarcastic sniping at each other and concentrate on making this article better.  My bad temper in these debates is only borne out of frustration: when I say arguments are semantic it is not that I wish to suggest I am way above these arguments, it's just that I'm annoyed to see dnb fans spending months bickering about exactly what jungle does and doesn't mean, instead of just writing a paragraph everyone can agree with, and then getting on with improving all-round coverage of our scene.


 * Anyway........ I'm glad you agree its important to represent the views of a wide range of d&b and jungle fans, and that one persons viewpoint can't be taken as gospel. That's why the article currently says:


 * The difference between jungle and drum and bass is one of the most common debates within the community. There is no universally accepted semantic distinction between the terms "jungle" and "drum and bass". Some associate "jungle" with older material from the first half of the 1990s (sometimes referred to as "jungle techno"), and see drum and bass as essentially succeeding jungle. Others use jungle as a shorthand for ragga jungle, a specific sub-genre within the broader realm of drum and bass. In the USA, the combined term "Jungle Drum and Bass" (JDB) has some popularity, but is not widespread elsewhere. Probably the widest held viewpoint is that the terms are simply synonymous and interchangeable: drum and bass is jungle, and jungle is drum and bass.


 * I would like to know, in clear and simple terms, exactly what viewpoint you believe is NOT covered by this paragraph. As far as I can see there are three major stances on jungle vs dnb: first, that they're different words for the same thing; second, that there is a chronological difference (dnb succeeded/superceded jungle); third, that there is a stylistic difference (jungle and dnb sound different).  All three are covered in that paragraph.  So what's wrong with it?  If we could focus on that we might get somewhere ;)


 * for what it's worth, I started a poll on DOA about this:


 * what is the difference between DnB and Jungle? 1) They're interchangable, it's all the same shit 2) Dnb and Jungle are stylistically different 3) Dnb and Jungle are chronologically different


 * after about 3 days, there are 94 votes - 32 for option 1, 30 for option 2, 32 for option 3. Despite the obvious objections about small sample size, unrepresentative of all dnb listeners, etc, I think this shows quite clearly there is no single consensus on the issue, and the wording of the jungle and/or dnb articles should reflect this, covering all three positions. Stevekeiretsu 13:53, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Btw, you've made various requests about people's credibility. Well, in answer to that, I will happily concede I was NOT around when Jungle kicked off (I was about 9 years old).  This is why I'm not stomping around the talk page saying: "these are the facts about jungle" - I realise there are other people with more direct experience of the early 90s scene.  Like, so far as I can gather, you?  On the other hand, I'm still not in favour of you (or anybody) just rewriting the article according to your personal memories, which is why I stuck my oar in when Frantik reverted.  For example, I know that your description of intelligent vs hard dnb being in "rivalry" is highly dubious so I can't take everything you write as gospel!  Also, many opponents of the jungle merge argued that dnb and jungle are "completely different" -- up comes a quote from DJ Hype where he clearly treats them as interchangable terms.  Other opponents of the merge argued the term "dnb" was unheard of in the earlier days of jungle.  Up comes a quote from Conrad proving otherwise.  This seems to me ample proof that there is more than one viewpoint on the jungle vs dnb issue -- which is all I've ever said.  I haven't claimed one position is right, I've just said people should remember there is no one position that is right.  So in other words - while I might not have been in London when Jungle was born, you don't have to take my word for it, you can take DJ Hype and Conrad's word for it.


 * Hope this clarifies things a bit Stevekeiretsu 18:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it's fair to request a cessation of destructive activity in regards to existing materials until there is an unanimously agreed upon course of action. Deletion of each others' work only really serves to push this argument into highly personal and ultimately counter-productive territory. On another note, I propose and IRC chatroom group discussion, getting as many invovled as possible, including other boards/forums. Cheers. flakisms


 * @ Flak's idea - obviously I agree with him. I have been trying to achieve real-time discussion with people for a week or so. tactik 07:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * if people are up for irc then i'm usually on in #wikipedia on freenode as 'milk' during the evenings (gmt) --MilkMiruku 12:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

need for ragga sub genre
I just noticed there is no ragga subgenre.. thats a pretty big omission! there is a ragga page but it is doesn't describe ragga jungle really. i think a lot of what has been added to the jungle music page recently could be put on a ragga page. If anybody is interested in starting one, go for it.. if not, i'll go ahead and do it when i get a chance --Frantik 09:21, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Suspected sockpuppets of User:Tactik
User:Andy hoffman User:Tobler1

Both have never contributed to any part of wikipedia, with the exception of this talk page, and interestingly Tobler1 has the exact same problem with his apostrophe key as Tactik does. 


 * This is the conclusion yr powers of deduction have led you to... dear Lord. "interesting"?! this doesn't even come close. what a pile... I thought you nerds were at least literate.


 * The funniest thing is that I was the one that corrected Toblers attempt at formatting his DON'T Merge text, his apostrophe key obviously worked JUST FINE seeing as he was able to (mistakenly) hit Shift-Apostrophe to create quotation marks. Explain that one Sherlock?


 * I posted a message about this whole argument on a jungle site... hence people have probably joined Wiki and voted. Can't you guys read IP addresses?


 * I'd better be getting an apology after Admin remove yr head from yr ass on this one tactik 15:12, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, using internet forums to get people to join and vote is called a meatpuppet, and is considered a form of sockpuppet. Even if they were completely independant (which you have just admitted they are not), first-edit voters are not considered valid. Themindset 22:17, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, posting about this discussion and talking to fellow junglsits about the ridiculous POV being ham-fisted into place, has led to people deciding of their own volition (ie: not at my request) to post here. That is not being a meatpuppet - read up on it and stop slandering me.
 * tactik 05:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * vote for what? to quote yourself "there is no official policy against taking a sample of opinion on talk pages" i'd argue that this article needs all the input it can get seeing there's only a small handful of regular wikipedia users who seem to give a care about it atm. P.S. tactik; wikipedia is all about openness and transparency; can i ask what forums you mentioned this article in? --MilkMiruku 22:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * So your point is that first-edit voters are valid? Um, ok... I'm not even going to debate that point, as it's covered by wikipedia policy. Tactik posted this at the DnB arena, and the opinion there seemed split. Note that he mentions me using weazle terms like "allegedly"... meh, whatever. The point is that authorities like DJ Hype, Bad Company, etc believe that the terms are synonymous. That's like Einstein telling you that E=MC2. Themindset 23:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course you can ask... I posted on breakbeat.co.uk (drum&bassArena) and I believe it was on-posted at melbourne-beats.com (a hiphop, jungle + d&b production page), I asked for peoples opinions and then said at the bottom "If you want to contribute for either POV please go to -address of discussion page- ... i deliberately wrote the "either POV" bit becuase I don't actually want to bias people... if this contravenes any rules please let me know. Wait, I'm sure I know someone that'll let me know ;P
 * I'm still waiting on an apology and a link to mindsets d&b=jungle consensus.
 * (note the indents boys!!)tactik 12:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

WHO ARE ALL YOU PEOPLE???
I'm interested in how many of the people who have written this article were actually around in London and the surrounding counties, plus up north when Jungle kicked off?

And who said Jungle doesn't need its own page? Jungle is not part of Drum n Bass history, it isn't like Hardstep or Jump Up, it was a bloody sub culture limited to the UK, if anything Drum n Bass is a sub genre of Drum n Bass, but I would say it was an evolution. It was the first musical invention of the UK urban multicultural music scene. I am reopening the case for Jungle to have a seperate listing, as I have buckets of information that would be as large as the Drum n Bass section.

The Drum n Bass article needs some serious work, it has so many spelling and grammatical errors that it's making Junglists look stupid.

&mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.10.38.226 (talk &bull; contribs).
 * LOL... so the poor quality of the drum and bass page is making junglists look bad... but drum and bass and jungle aren't the same thing?
 * --Frantik 02:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I think you're talking shit.

Even the pirates in London were using the term 'Hardcore' well into '93, the term 'Drum & Bass' was used in the scene from '91 / '92 onwards, even if only in a minor way. I remember there being a good 18 months from late '92 to early '94 when it was confusing WHAT to call it, ther were so many terms chucked around - although the term Jungle was gaining massive poularity over that period, followed by Drum & Bass from early '94 onwards.

Its all bollocks, and if you think modern D&B is seperate from the earlier scene due to semantics then you're wrong (it is for many other reasons, but not bloody words!)

Who are B-list producers?
"Themindset (pls dont list b-list producers as pioneers (tech itch was simply not a pioneer of DnB, perhaps of the american scene, but that's it))" Bizzy B, Remarc, Krome & Time and Technical Itch were UK pioneers of the Jungle sound, what are you talking about? Please tell me who you think Bizzy B is please? Remarc? Krome & Time? And Tehcnical Itch over here progressed the Tech Step and Hardstep sub genres of Jungle and Drum n Bass. Where were you when these bods were kicking it and progressing the sound in the UK? Do you know how many producers Bizzy B helped to see the light of day as well as producing pioneering Hardcore and Jungle pieces and progressed the Jump Up sound? Remarc and Krome & Time defined one of the greatest Jungle labels, Suburban Base Records. So please let's enter a discussion over this. Oh Yes, I forgot, Aphrodite, is he not a legend inventing the Jump Up sound? So, please Themindset give it to me, as I'm interested in your analysis. I was wondering what these 'b-list' producers would think of your comments. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.10.38.226 (talk &bull; contribs).


 * Listen, they are all important producers, but we can't just be adding our personal faves to a short list of pioneers, that's the kind of thing that just creates a mess. Bizzy B doesn't even have an article on wikipedia, maybe you should create one (?). Themindset 17:21, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Stop covering your dodgy-info and POV-edits with blathering mindset. You have to understand that Wiki is new to a lot of people... The articles will come, the information will come.. as long as you stop deleting and editing as per your POV. Let us get on with informing the world.
 * tactik 12:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Jungle does not = D&B
That's like saying Goa Trance is Psychedelic Trance and that Rap is Hip Hop. Sure they sound similar, but there are certain distinctions between the two. Correct me. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.189.164.204 (talk &bull; contribs).


 * Actually, I encourage you to go to Rap music and see what happens. (Please sign all you comments by adding ~ at the end.) Themindset 21:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * um, the article for rap is 'Rapping' ;) --MilkMiruku 22:01, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Rapping has it's own article, but rap music points to hip hop music. Rapping isn't even music, so I dont understand your point. Themindset 23:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * my point is that 198.189.164.204 didn't say "rap music"; they said rap, but it doesn't really matter as it's unrelated to the issue at hand. --MilkMiruku 23:34, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

If you do not know about Bizzy B, then you need schooling in Jungle music and culture my friend.

Why are you trying to be clever Themindset? You're trying to get me to confirm things in which you are assuming. The producers I have mentioned were pioneers of Jungle.

This discussion has only just started!

Rap and Hip Hop? Rap music started the Hip Hop culture, wihtout Rap there wouldn't be Hip Hop. Rap is again different to Hip Hop. Is Motown the same and modern R&B? Is Classical the same as Neo Classical? Is guitar-based Pop the same as electronic-based Pop?

Jungle is massive. Jungle is a way of life. You ever heard of the tune by Marvelous Cain - Everyday Junglist? Listen deep to that tune and you will hear the production style of a certain 'B-list' producer. You cannot compare that tune to any Drum n Bass. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.10.38.226 (talk &bull; contribs).


 * Please sign your comments by adding ~ at the end. Themindset 19:14, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You cannot compare that tune to any Drum n Bass. 
 * It can easily be compared to 'any drum and bass'.. I bet it contains cut up funk breaks over a loud bassline and is between 150-180 bmp, just like a billion other drum and bass tunes.


 * No one has yet been able to post even one thing that makes a tune jungle but not drum and bass.. and since there is nothing objective that differentiates them, there is no reason to have two encyclopedia pages on the same topic.


 * --Frantik 02:41, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You still pulling that old one out Frantik?... the reality is that jsut becuase you guys don't see a difference, doesn't mean that there isn't one.
 * You have to accept that there are people out there that do... and as such we are entitled to our POV and you to your POV.


 * If you want a difference or two,
 * -tempo alone (it's easy...) very early jungle was barely above 140bpm and it hardly even broke 165bpm.
 * -most jungle uses mainly funk-breaks that have been re-patterned, whilst drum&bass uses mainly drum patterns created from single hit samples. (d&b producers in the last few years have started to bring back the original breaks after a lengthy period without them- which is sweet!)
 * I see a big difference, not just when considering the ragga-jungle aspects but also with other original jungle tunes, You know...the ones that sing about jungle, talk about jungle and deliver righteous shout-outs to all the junglists.


 * You DON'T hear any tunes back then saying, "long live drum&bass, drum&bass'll never die etc..etc..) they refer to jungle, technically, 100% of the time.
 * drum&bass' (as it's known today) can be traced almost directly to Playford + Goldie's 'Timeless' Album, with it's cutting edge production techniques, more traditional song structure and melodies, and more commercial sound. Funny that it's hardly even mentioned on the drum&bass page. WTF?
 * Maybe you don't understand what that album, and it's success, did to the scene... with you being from a different continent and probably not even hearing jungle or d&b until the late 90's.
 * tactik 12:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude. We are acknowedging the different points of view, they are being acknowledged in the dnb article. Stop acting so childishly, learn to be diplomatic... we are not on some "junglist" webforum here, we are all trying to be respectful, considerate, and thoughtful. We had a long discussion about the decision, and then you came in and just obfuscated what was a long deliberative process... Once again, we do acknowledge different POVs on this matter, but it's within the DnB article. And please, stop with the Ad Hominem attacks, they are really unbecoming. Themindset 17:59, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Well this isn't very academic but my personal memory is I loved jungle in a big way then when it started being called 'intelligent' and 'drum n bass' it began to bore me. And yes, noting a discussion above, there was definitely a big class and race shift when that happened - and I believe that 'sociology' of jungle is worth some attention. But I'd be lost as to where to start with written sources for all this - I think you've got a problem that jungle was the main term used when this was still an oral culture before the music press started writing about it - yes Goldie was a big factor in drawing that press attention. Another thing that occurred to me is there isn' anything on the page about influences on later musical forms - garage above all. I think a lot of junglists I knew went over to garage when it started getting 'intelligent', and there's clearly links between the genres but I'm no way near enough an expert to start writing about this.Bengalski 22:58, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

OK Themindest, you have a point (Tatiks, calm down, take deep breathes and think about Junglism and write. But, Themindset, you do not need to be so absolute – nothing is final in wikipedia. What sort of statement is this?

''‘We had a long discussion about the decision, and then you came in and just obfuscated what was a long deliberative process... Once again, we do acknowledge different POVs on this matter, but it's within the DnB article.’''

Well, sorry mate, you’re opening the book as you are commiting a crime against Junglists and the movement called Junglism. And I will carry on writing about Jungle until you are convinced that Jungle is something entriely different to Drum n Bass.

Bengalski - We need your help. I know it's an oral-driven subculture, but isn't everything before it's written down? Start writing about Junglism and your experiences on here mate, I'm serious, especially about class and the social aspects. We need to teach these people about Jungle.


 * It's interesting reading this stuff. I was from Scotland of 1992 - a place where all forms of breakbeat was pretty much disliked in rave as we followed a different route/culture, so really cannot comment - it was not happening on my doorstep. I was however aware of jungle techno back then and what was going on down south from the like of Paul E and Chris Mc of N19 London. If you want opinions - I'd really be speaking to those guys as they are credited as inventing the thing. They also made some of the early moves over to this jungle garage kind of thing. Email is (put in the "at" sign) > "paulibizarecords ((a)) aol.com" --Revolt 16:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Jungle was a subcultural movement, DnB was it's little brother
''It can easily be compared to 'any drum and bass'.. I bet it contains cut up funk breaks over a loud bassline and is between 150-180 bmp, just like a billion other drum and bass tunes.''

''No one has yet been able to post even one thing that makes a tune jungle but not drum and bass.. and since there is nothing objective that differentiates them, there is no reason to have two encyclopedia pages on the same topic. --Frankyferta nob 02:41, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

You are having a bubble mate, you haven't even heard the tune I’m on about have you? You think you know about Jungle? I question your understanding of the subculture behind Jungle, which directly influenced its sound.

Jungle is Jungle when the producer says it is, he/she has to be inside Jungle in order to feel it. You cannot just classify Jungle as having a certain BPM, loud bassline and have funk breaks. I've heard too many Jungle tunes that would destroy that statement.

It is so strange that you cannot hear the difference between Jungle and Drum n Bass? But anyway, going into a bit of history... Jungle was formed by people such as Bizzy B fusing breaks over Acid House at places such as The Dungeons in Leyton, London in the early 90s. But the Jungle subculture was already there growing massively. One of the obvious factors was the use of XTC, which the papers got hold of, but it was deeper than that.

I suppose Junglism can be likened to the UK MODs in the 60s who were working class living in council estates; they had a dress code; a language; particular places they hanged around; a certain type of transport and their own style of music. With early Junglists, they mainly lived in ‘urban jungles’ such as Essex and London within council estates; they wore tracksuits and expensive designer labels such as Moshchino shirts; they raved in underground clubs and warehouses; they had a particular language which was a multicultural hybrid of Cockney; their transport were customised cars such as R5 Turbo’s and RS Turbo’s (if they could afford it) and of course they had Jungle music as their bible, which they religiously followed every day.

If you look back to the formation of Jungle, it was a urban collective of the multicultural working class Anglo-Asians, Anglo-Caribbean’s and the White Brit’s – it was the first music scene in the UK to be from a truly multi-cultural background. I know the bonds were not perfect, but it special because anybody was accepted into the subculture. I have found that many people from other countries do not understand the English class system, and I will not expect them to, but it was it was the class system, which was pivotal in the progress of the subculture, Jungle.

Junglism grew and it caught on making it a very most popular alternative music in the UK, but there was a mystique behind the music, as it was closely guarded and kept underground for a long time. Jungle artists seemed to not be interested in the media, thus there is not a lot of official information detailing the scene. It was only a matter of time before people in the scene sold out and Junglism was given a price tag, and the scene just got too big to handle. There are various arguments as to what happened next… there was too much violence with rival gangs, too much drug usage or negative media coverage. If you add it all up, it was commercialism that changed the scene and drove Junglism back to the underground, giving birth to different sub genres of Jungle, such as Jump Up pioneered by such artists as Aphrodite and Bizzy B, Tech-Step pioneered by such artists as Technical Itch and Ed Rush, and Intelligent pioneered by such artists as Rob Playford and Alpha Omega, which all were eventually put under the collective umbrella called, Drum n Bass.

Drum n Bass was a new breed of Jungle music, and it didn’t start off with the same vibe as Jungle. DnB was more of an exploration of where the music could go. The Speed of Sound album by Ram Records was really the first together offering of the future sound of the scene, and arguably the album gave birth to a definitive sound as a basis for Drum n Bass. But there were many other scenes within DnB kicking off too, but with all different sounds and following, which could never be compared against the collective sound and culture of Jungle.

Junglism still exists to this day, and it will never die, it is my heart and in my blood. All artists within the Drum n Bass scene today, who grew up within the culture, have the Jungle vibe in their blood. A modern example is by the almighty Calibre and MC Fats, with a tune called, ‘Drop it Down’ – that tune is all about Junglism, the vibe.

And I have more information… do you need more? --86.10.38.226 22:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC)Junglist Soldier

Beginnings in the UK / so called "toy-town"
Was there such a term as toy-town in 1992? Regardless, there was not an entire movement - it was just a few silly records in breakbeat hardcore. Sesame's Treet is just one of the more notorious tunes back then. I do understand what is being said but I don't think that term is from that period or reflects what was going on. There was already some jungle tracks being made at that time.

AFAIK Toy-town is the name of a song from the happy hardcore side that was out in early 1996 - so is some years after Sesame's Treet. The Toy-town song introduced a more vocal element to happy hardcore - that scene taking a new tangent and bringing in a younger demographic. This Toy-town song and Sesame's Treet song has no relation.

The only place I've seen it used before is the Ishkur music guide under Hardcore > Oldskool. Besides, the Oldskool audio section on there is not accurate - only numbers 2, 3 and 6 are breakbeat hardcore of 1992 (track 1 was made in 1995). --Revolt 10:57, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Toy town doesn't refer to the the tune 'Toy Town' but to the sound of records like Seasame's Treat and Charly. Here's a description of the Charly record from :  Widely regarded as the Prodigy's finest release this one featured the all time anthem "Your Love" and the equally classic toy town, TV sampling tune "Charly".


 * it can also be referenced on this page (google cache) about darkcore: As time went on, hardcore progressed in both the ideas that it explored, as well as the vibe that it captured. After massive commercial exposure for the rave scene in late '91 and '92 thanks to so called "toy town" records that plagued the charts, the producers wanted to take things back to the underground now more than ever, and they did just that by entering the dark side. Tunes without the uplifting pianos and heavenly strings we previously recognised, instead overwhelming you with much more eerie sound scapes, yet still managing to stay in close reach to it's more happy counterpart. This style particularly took off towards 1993, and went on to be the basis of what's now known as jungle music, or drum 'n' bass.
 * --Frantik 07:05, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for that. --Revolt 20:01, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

some references to cull from..
here's some reference pages for info.. Some of these might even be suitable for linking on the main page --Frantik 20:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The History Of Drum & Bass Music
 * UK History of DnB
 * Archive of many examples of different genres with a blurb about each genre and tune
 * darkside
 * darkcore
 * jump up jungle (though most of the records listed here aren't what most people think of as jump up (aka a million tunes that all sound like one aphrodite track lol)
 * Intelligent

REOPENING THE CASE FOR A JUNGLE MUSIC SECTION
I think that it is time to revert back to having a jungle page and a drum n bass page. I can supply lots of copy and I'm sure many other people can too. Junglist Soldier.


 * It would be sweet, no?! but there's no point, there's a couple of Users on here who will just delete anything you write. Really sad, but I guess there will always be more amateurs than professionals.

tactik 14:12, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * lol.. your penchant for ad hominem attacks makes it clear which category you fall into in regards to amateurs and professionals.
 * cheers :D --Frantik 18:54, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * spot on frantik. spot on. Themindset 19:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * And for the jungle music page, please consider creating an article called Oldschool jungle, and all the same content could be dealt with within that article - unless this is a purely idiosyncratic issue, for which I can offer no help. Themindset 19:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * well there's always tactik's new Jungle Music page, which is apparently the new location, after Jungle (music) and Jungle music were both deemed not worthy of their own article --Frantik 02:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I see you moved it back to jungle music. i moved your move to Oldschool jungle. no info has to be deleted now, everyone should be happy. Themindset 16:40, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Link Section.
Hello,

shouldn't breaksblog.biz be part of the Weblinks?!

Okay, which bastiche keeps on deleting dnbforum from the links section? What is it with you? Dogsonacid and dnbarena are fine but dnbforum is somehow worse?


 * There's plenty of munters on here who will delete anything they don't like. Whether it be correct true or not. I tried to fight them on a whole range of shit but they just spent more time online than me. hehe
 * tactik 10:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * that area gets filled with link spam constantly.. thats probably why a link gets deleted
 * anybody want to come up with some coherent criteria for what should stay and what should go?
 * --Frantik 04:24, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * my 2p on the links bit is, FWIW: rolldabeats is essential. it is the google/discogs/allmusic of dnb.  DOA and DNB Arena are essential as they are far and away the biggest, most established forum/portals.  dnbforum also happy to stay as I think it's very much positioned in third place.  other forums, probably not to bother at this stage.  If you go back through the versions, we did used to have loads more -- we had forums by subgenre (DSCI4, Subvert Central, etc) and forums by locality (US, Polish, etc).  But somewhere along the line it was decided this was too many links for wikipedia.  So if we keep it to three, then those three are what I would view as the biggest / most well known / most established.  As for radio, I would say bassdrive, dnbradio (currently present) are notable, but it's difficult as I would think jungletrain, leetradio, and others are pretty much just as notable.  also potentially worth considering would be beatport, as it is far and away the biggest / best known mp3 vendor stocking dnb.  I suppose thats very much a commercial site though, so might not be popular on wikipedia.  Everything else.... I would say don't add, unless the person adding can present a strong case why it is deserved.  like i say... just my personal opinion Stevekeiretsu 16:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Edited Media Section
I believed Dj Hypes show on Kiss 100 every wednesday was just as notable as Fabio/Grooveriders on Radio 1 and therefore added it. Feel free to change the wording but i believe it should stay. Djm101 13:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Jungle is NOT Drum and Bass
Jungle music is tends to use higher frequencies than Drum and Bass does. You will also notice with Jungle music that it tends also to be a lightly slower bpm than Drum and Bass.

Drum and Bass, as the name suggests, consists mainly of a fast and heavy drum line (usually around 155 to 170) and a low churning bassline with different sound effects and vocals added for effect. Jungle music predominantly uses the drum line as the main listening point, usually with slightly quieter bass line.

Drum and Bass generally tends to be 'Darker' than Jungle.

These two styles are very similar when explained, but have a totally different and distinguishable sound.

Drum and Bass is NOT Jungle.

Jimbobsthebest 16:59, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Three queries on this article
1. "primarily Belgium, Holland and Germany - beyond 1992, but the general scenes in these countries had shifted over to trance, house, industrial techno or gabba (or happy hardcore / hard house, in UK terms)."


 * What does "or happy hardcore / hard house, in UK terms" mean exactly? They are all different things.

(The writer of the aforesaid sentence, here) - sorry, not clear - I meant the translation from the end of the 'Belgian' sound into the scenes which follwed it, with direct influence - does that make sense? I think it's pretty clear that in the UK, the Belgian sound later translated into the Trade / hard house sound, and also the happy hardcore scene, additionally with a big influence on d&b. Of course these scenes are seperate, but all trace directly back to Belgian Techno. Does that make a bit more sense?

2. "Whilst it has been suggested that it was the dancehall-aware black youth of Britain who fueled the drum and bass scene in the early days, this is not entirely true as there was substantial white following in northern British cities."


 * That is not entirely true either with regards to "substantial white following in northern British cities". There was indeed some culture thing regarding Scotland and this music. I'm surprised it hadn't already been mentioned on here as it was a big talking point up here during the 1990s. You'll find this drum & bass/jungle was little played at raves here as it would not draw and out of touch with the crowds/music here. Here's an article from Eterntity magazine for a standard 18,000 Scottish rave in Edinburgh 1995 for you to read. Eternity image It's worth pointing something like this out as will only improve the accuracy and history of this article even further. Also check the Scottish techno overview and beginnings.

3. "Some hardcore tracks at the time were extremely light and upbeat; the most extreme example of this were the so called "toy-town" tracks such as Smart E's' Sesame's Treat which features the children's show Sesame Street theme song. This style of hardcore would many years later be known as happy hardcore."


 * The Prodigy - Your Love or Altern 8 - Activ 8 is more of happy hardcore's origins than Sesame's Treet ever was. All the other things like breakbeat and darkcore on this article are greatly expanded with several song examples and put in a positive light. Needs more work on that bit as it reads like all happycore songs have kids TV tunes in them.

Thanks. --Revolt 10:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Re: #3, I wrote that part. I didn't mean to imply that all happy hardcore was in that style, just to indicate that happy hardcore and drum and bass share common roots.  Feel free to edit it as you see fit :) --Frantik 04:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Drum and Bass is from India
"How can we possibly prove that drum and bass was invented in the 1990s? Drum and Bass has existed for thousands of years in India, including low tuned and high-tuned tabla drums," says one point of view. But some also say that it was invented by Djs speeding up James Brown beats. I will give that jungle techno is NOT drum n' bass. So we can never tell for sure who invented it. -user: Crisspy

Rubbish.

There is no clear line of ancestry or evolution between the music you are referring to and modern ELECTRONIC drum & bass. Drum & bass is either jungle in a modern form OR the descendant/evolution of jungle. It is NOT a modern form of the music you are referring to (bhangra perhaps is) though there may be some crossover and influence. You might as well state that gangster rap evolved in India.

It also incredibly arrogant to be trying to find a root of a modern electronic music style in music that appeared a thousand years ago in a specific place. Nationalistic I would even say. Broken beats and bass sounds have functioned in every human culture, they are the invention of a specific nation, race or culture.

Having said that, dnb/jungle as a specific form of modern electronic music is the result of amalgamation of hiphop (therefore funk), rave, electronic music, ragga and dancehall in the UK - the birthplace of dnb/jungle.

Yes, it did appear as a result of hiphop being played double time.

Yes we can tell who invented jungle/dnb, all the djs listed in the article and some others, working together, creating this innovative style of music. There is no one creator but a collective.

What is jungle techno supposed to be, btw? And give me the clear definition of why jungle is not dnb.

I have never ever found a definition of the difference between jungle and dnb, one that would a track to be clearly labelled as one type of 170 bpm broken beat, bassline music - apart from a chronological definition.

--Dustek 15:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I Added some info on d&b distributors, as well as a little tidying of grammar and spelling...
Hope it helps. BenXO 20:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Removed spam warning
The sites listed at the end of the article refer to the junglist community, a key part of the dnb phenomenon (especially Dogsonacid.com) and/or provide examples of dnb music = dnb radio.

I am pretty certain the distributor list will be deleted and removed - but I will not do so. --Dustek 14:51, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Addition of breaks list?
Might I suggest that in the "Importance of drum and bassline elements" section, we compile a list of the major breaks used (much as some various bass elements have been mentioned)? I mean, we all obviously know the Amen, Apache, etc... but then wouldn't it be fair to mention Lynn Collins, etc etc etc... seems like it could very easily get too long to be mentioned in a normal paragraph and frankly, kind of deserves a proper listing... any thoughts? --AlexandertheP 17:21, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * In an old version of this article, I actually had a list of (if I remember correctly) Amen, Think, Jungle Drummer, Cold Sweat, Apache, Tighten Up, Tramen, and maybe a few others... Someone took it out. I didnt put it back in because I generally can't be bothered with in-out-in-out mine-yours-mine-your edit wars at all, I just thought, fine, if someone wants it out, leave it out. I would be inclined to agree that a short list is worthwhile, but it is difficult where to draw the line.  Stevekeiretsu 20:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, found it - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum_and_bass&oldid=28921903 - my list above from memory was correct except I didn't include funky drummer (which is what I meant by jungle drummer... brain fart, doh) and I did include the assembly line. Stevekeiretsu 20:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I added a little blurb mentioning the Amen (because I just HAD to), and giving a nod to the Apache and Funky Drummer... but I found a great list of notable breaks on the Break (music) page - I suggest that we edit this down to make it more dnb-specific and then include it on the page. Any takers? By the way, I couldn't figure out how to make the words "breakbeat" or break beat" redirect to the "break (music)" page without changing the actual text... how do I do this? thanks all --AlexandertheP 17:41, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

added the breaks link for you - check it out to see how I did it.--Zerious 19:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

anon IPs adding vanity names to the article.
I'm very very annoyed by the anon-IP's constantly adding these random no-name DJ's to the article. I will be doing a clean sweep of the article soon, and will remove all the non A-list DJ's from the article. And as a rule, if the DJ doesn't have a wiki entry, chances are they are not A-list. Themindset 21:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * agree in principle, not so sure in practice. the last "vanity name" you removed was Remarc!  Who isn't a vanity name; even if it was Remarc adding himself anonymously (which I doubt) he is notable anyway!  I am assuming you know Remarc but if not check rolldabeats - http://www.rolldabeats.com/artist/remarc


 * (Although, by the way, I am agreed with your removal of that sentence, it said he was "the master" of breaks which is NPOV, people say the same about Crystl, Photek, T-power...)


 * I don't think "No wiki entry = not A-list" stands up for the simple reason that Wikipedia is not great at coverage of dance music. Until I made one last year, there was no entry for: Optical, Teebee, Klute, Calyx, and more.  Pretty big names to be missing an article, but they were until I put a crappy stub together.


 * Even now a scan through the article shows the following DJ/artists have no article: Doc Scott, Brockie, Ray Keith, L Double, Kenny Ken, T-Power, Nu:tone, Logistics, Digital, Spirit, Amit, Twisted Individual, Generation Dub, DJ Hazard, Fanu..... All of which are clearly very far from "vanity" entries, even if they're not all entirely "A-list" either.


 * My advice FWIW would be to consult RDB every time. If they have a reasonable discog there they stay, if they're not there, they effectively don't exist ;)


 * Stevekeiretsu 21:50, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I deleted the bit about Remarc due to being POV. Themindset 23:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Trivia
One of the earliest (if not THE earliest) drum'n'bass rolls (loops?) can be found in the beginning of "On the Silent Wings of Freedom" by Yes from their 1978 album Tormato. --Minder 22:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)