Talk:Drum and bass/Archive2

What part is the drop?
"The drop is the point in a track where a switch of rhythm or bassline occurs and usually follows a recognisable build section and "breakdown". [...] "The drop" is often a key point from the point of view of the dancefloor, since the drumbreaks often fade out to leave an ambient intro playing."

I thought the drop is the part that comes after the breakdown of the intro, the actual track with the breakbeat, basslines, melodies and effects? How I perceive a Drum & Bass track:

IntroBreakdown-DropBreakdown-Drop with outro

When I read the sentences in the article, it seems that the drop is meant to be the breakdown?

Also, why does the english version of this article differ so much from the english one? The history of DnB is written from a completely different viewpoint.

The drop is when the beats kick in, it usualy follows a break with a build up: Intro--break/build up--drop---Break/build up--Drop with outro. D&B DJ for 8 years,Urban Revival-London

North American Beginnings
What is going on here?

By creating this element outside of the rave culture, and the advancement of internet technology, drum and bass spread quickly in the United States, with an appeal not only to youths against authority, but to the working class person who wanted to enjoy themselves in a more controlled environment.

I had no idea that DnB was fighting a class war for us in the United States. I think this is bogus - what is a controlled environment anyway, as vs a riot? I would also challenge it's appeal to working class in the states, even in DnB capitals. Objections to an edit? --Phatmattbaker 00:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree to your edit proposal for that edit. My own personal experience with DnB/Jungle was that of it being an offshoot of the early 1990s Rave Culture as an evolving genre. This genre was a "love child" result of the fusion from the slower House music loopy construct with peppering from the "hardcore" styles, paired with sped up hip hop breakbeats, and of course the James Brown "Funky Drummer" mashed up loop. Honorable mention of the "Amen" and "Apache" rhythm styles, both being variations of that James Brown "Funky Drummer" sampling. And of course, the iconic "baby voice" sound sample being dropped in for vigorous excitement. In NYC we were treated by the likes of great music performances such as 1.8.7 (Jordana), Soul Slinger, DB, and On-E (later part of DeeLite).  In terms of cultural identity, at least from my first hand, eye witness experience, it consisted of a subgroup from the Raver Youth counter-culture, and certainly attracted the more grimy, street savvy, hardcore dancer types.  Many of us donned our long dreadlocks to mark our membership. 2603:7000:AF3E:5300:14E1:C320:F19C:6A4 (talk) 04:00, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Minneapolis needs to be added to "North American Beginnings".
I added Minneapolis to "North American Beginnings". I am not going to question some of the other cities inclusions, but Minneapolis/St. Paul was home to the Jungle Vibe Collective, one of the largest jungle dj/mc/promotional crews in North American in the late 90's. We were throwing 1500 person ALL jungle parties when other major cities didn't even have a handful of people repping the music. We were the first in the US to bring MANY UK Djs and MCs to the US, such as Skibadee (97), Randall (98), SS and Mental Power(96) and so on, not to mention a plethora of touring UK performers. We also were the first to have a self-produced piece about the American jungle scene on MTV News Unfiltered(97). If you don't know you weren't there, but that's no excuse for leaving it out.DJ Easyrider 18:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

ez


 * Late 90s was not the north american beginnings. Unless you're talking about 93-94 era, it does not qualify. Themindset 16:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all, this article states "The rave scenes in the US (New York) and in Canada (Toronto) embraced the transition of hardcore to darkside jungle around 1994... While New York and Toronto thrived in this culture in the early 90's, new scenes were rapidly gaining recognition in the mid 90's, such as..." I think 1996 qualifies as mid-1990s in this context, if you want to get into semantics. Second, where have you found find citations of a more substantial history of drum n bass in Los Angeles, Denver and Seattle in the early 1990's? I've never heard of anything consequential from those cities in that period. DJ Easyrider 18:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, so I found your citations for you:

"In 1997 (Raymond Roker) started the West Coast's first weekly drum-and-bass night, Science, at The Pink in Santa Monica, Calif..."

http://om-records.com/artist.php?tr_artist_id=60#\\

"It's amazing for a club night to last six months, let alone six years," says Eric Kozak, better known as DJ D.ecco, as he faces the upcoming final night of Breakdown, a club phenomenon that he and partner Steve Blakley, aka DJ Fury, have helmed since the late '90s..."

http://www.westword.com/Issues/2004-07-29/music/music2.html

Except for Konkrete Jungle, I'm pretty sure the rest of those nights started around the same time as well.

The only thing that's really remarkable about this discussion is that while these cities rightfully gained some recognition for hosting small shows in various nightclubs, Minneapolis was throwing 500 -1500+ attended ALL jungle ALL NIGHT RAVES with UK talent in a metro area of only 1.5 million people. Again, if you weren't around to know, then don't pretend to have a P.H.D. in Junglism - I'm talking to you, "THEMINDSET". Considering my diligent research, I'm re-re-editing this article. If anyone has a problem with that then I'd appreciate you stating your reasons here.DJ Easyrider 00:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Chill out. I wasn't around in minneapolis in the mid-90s, no. Themindset 18:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Relevance of Pre-Jungle History
I agree with whoever reverted the page to the older version including the pre-jungle history - it is relevant to the evolution of the music. Take, for example, "bebop" - even though this is a New York-based style of music, it has its roots in music from New Orleans, so a brief mention of that is perfectly valid. Likewise, "jungle" came from England, but it was the first such UK-based style of music and had, as direct predecessors, those US styles listed. --AlexandertheP 21:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks mate, this 'themindset' geezer is on some job to improve the article, but is clearly not up to the job and is vandalising good info. Methinks he should kno the limits of his info innit... (Digest)


 * Well, sure, but... I think we can all maintain a civil tone on here, too. Let's get along! --AlexandertheP 18:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I put the pre-jungle notes into the new dnb influences section. Dustek

If you forget your past you have no hope for the future, Peace Love and Unity. Urban Revival-London

Vandalism
'themindset' chose to remove my section on pre jungle / drum & bass notables. I am British, and recognize the music as British, but am aiming to add some vital background detail to the music, that is 100% accurate and relevant. It is called PRE drum & bass for this precise reason.

Please do not remove this section again.

Erm, this guy has removed my piece again, and demonstrated his ignorance in his reply to me. I don't kno how to reply to PM on here but this guy is just stupid, and robbing this article of KEY points.

sorry..... but gro a brain bro, Please don't chat about shit you are clearly unqualified to speak about. digest


 * I'm sorry, but using insults is not constructive behaviour. Also, when you are reverting my edits you are also reverting small grammatical edits I made at the bottom. Please help reduce this article to its important features. Themindset 16:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Listen, I don't want to get personal, which is why i haven't looked at this site again for the last week. I apologise for overreacting, even if I do see your editing as unwarranted and lacking in insight. But I quite simply know what I'm taking about here.

PLEASE, please please go take a listen to Reese's 'The Sound' (remix) and 'Just Another Chance' for starters, and tell me they are not directly relevant to drum and bass. There is literally no leap of the imagination I'm asking you to make, it's all there before your ears. Key tracks - and artist.

The sound has specific elements which originate from specific producers. It is NOT confined to the UK and DOES go back before 1990. Some of these elements get erroneously left out of many histories, which is where I thought Wikipedia shone: in having the potential to find all the pieces of the jigsaw for its subject areas.

All I'm asking for is for you to research what you are so keen to delete, as I feel this is a loss to what could have been one of the most comprehensive drum & bass histories anywhere. Out. digest


 * So then let's create the article History of drum and bass. Literally just click on that link and create the article! And we'll link to it from here. I will help you and defer to you, happily. I just want to make the main drum and bass article more accessible to the uninitiated... I'm sure you want to expose DnB to new people to. One love. Themindset 20:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, cool man, great idea.

I won't read your message (I'm guessing its from you) as I don't understand how to reply, but I appreciate your response.

I was just a little shocked beore at the extent of your deletions. I'm sure you understand, big up. I have read one or two many crap, incomplete, or just wrong drum & bass 'histories' in my time, and saw Wikipedia as being the alternative to this I guess.digest

Perhaps...?
I had noticed that in some older discussions before I was on here, people had suggested separating some of the early "jungle" information into it's own article, much as there's a history of hip hop article distinctly apportioned from the hip hop piece. Maybe this currently-debated bit about pre-jungle would benefit from something like this? I think it's pretty valid information... the first time I read the article, I was pleased to find it there. It sort of... coalesced... some ideas that I had had an inkling of myself, and as far as I can tell, is pretty accurate. Is the issue that it wasn't written in enough of an encyclopedaic tone, and therefore might mess up the "good article" nomination? Anyway, this is my suggestion for a compromise - I think that otherwise, Digest may keep adding it, and mindset keep removing it... and what fun is that? Just some thoughts.--AlexandertheP 18:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * But, again, let's all stay cool... :) --AlexandertheP 18:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that's an excellent suggestion. Please WP:Be bold and initiate these changes, I encourage you to perhaps rewrite those bits with more of an encyclopedic tone when you transfer them to the History of drum and bass article. Themindset 20:55, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Digest's article is spot on and the basic facts are there. If you are going to give it "more of an encyclopedic tone" dont forget the people who were at the D&B + Jungle raves were not English Litt students they were mashed up pill heads. Urban Revival-london

Good Article
This article needs pictures and references before it can be even considered to be a good article. --GoOdCoNtEnT 07:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. An article about music needs pictures.

SARCASM. --83.6.233.95 21:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually to be honest I'm inclined to agree. A couple of pics wouldn't really go amiss - sure, they might seem unnecessary on an article about music but you know, a little colour never hurts an article.  Would it be so hard to dig up some photos of raves, famous DJs or even pieces of music tech?  I'll see what I can dig out, but I don't own any of the 'canonical' dnb studio gear (Emu sampler, Virus, etc), don't have any photos of people like Grooverider, and most of my club/rave pics are awful.


 * Also FWIW I've put quite a lot of editing into this article but I'm still not sure I'd call it good. There's a lot of good information now, but it's grown a lot from a lot of different contributors over recent months, and as a result doesn't really "flow" in a very readable way to me.  I keep meaning to try and re-order and re-write things to try and make it a smoother read, possibly even siphon some of the lengthier sections into separate articles, and replace them with summarised versions in the main version... but I never get time.


 * Stevekeiretsu 03:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Happy now? There are hardly any dnb related pics to be found on Wikipedia --Dustek 10:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Non-existent sub-genres
I've been on the scene for a while and have never heard of techmospheric. I've never read about in print, online, in a forum or heard it on radio, in an interview or encountered any form of dnb called techmospheric. Any google searches lead to self-referencing articles. Get rid of this.

Wobble is not a genre of dnb, its a perjorative name for jump-up. Get rid of it as well. --Dustek 15:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I realise I'm getting on for six months late, but I see "techmospheric" is still in there, so I thought I'd add a note on this.


 * I have read it online and heard it on (internet) radio several times, but only really from one source. It was coined by ASC of Covert Operations, presumably to reflect the fact that the style being pushed was atmospheric, but with a techy dancefloor influence rather than the ambient or jazzy sound of the previous generation of "Intelligent drum and bass".  Personally, I love the Cov Ops sound, I "know" (in online terms) ASC, he's a great guy... but still don't think it deserves being listed on Wikipedia.  At the moment it even has an article - a bit much considering that are even some of the bigger artists/DJs within the niche besides ASC think the word is silly!  I think the most reasonable approach would be to refer to the term as we do with "choppage" - parenthesised after intelligent as an alternative term or related style - and to make the content of the techmospheric article a == section == within that article. Stevekeiretsu 03:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Pics, references, clean up
I've added references as far as I can. Please add additional ones. You might not agree with the content of the references but don't delete them, add your own.

I've added pics. More will be added when I get the copyright owners to agree.

I've restructured the article without deleting any elements. I hope it read betters. The reference to North American beginnings broke the flow of the article so it was moved. Somebody please work on the North American fragment, the bit about working class rave environment is embarassing. --Dustek 11:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Right, removed the "controlled environment" fragment because it made no sense. --Dustek 11:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Influences
The House music article has an excellent list of influences. Could somebody put together a similar list for jungle/dnb? --Dustek 12:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Did it myself. Dustek

Images
I've added images, including some new ones that I uploaded to Wikicommons. If you don't like the layout of the images, move them around, I'm not entirely happy with their positioning. Please don't delete them. --Dustek 08:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

A group called iokee photography cover a lot of the main drum n bass events here in the UK. I've used many of their photos for my artwork, flyers, websites etc. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to contribute some quality photos. Maybe I'll get them to signup to wiki. You can get in touch with them (not sure if i can post urls here, so i wont) do a search on google for iokee.

Article length
It is long but considering its many sections and the complexity of the subject, the length is justified. Most subsections are short and do not warrant seperate articles. This is a gateway article and as such it will tend to be lengthy. Dustek

Further work
I've spent a massive amount of time on this article but it still needs further work.

As far as content is concerned, I think this article is just about finished - unless there is a massive mistake or omission that needs correcting. Note that a lack of mention of your favourite producer is not a massive omission. Please note that I have not been deleting material but have been adding or moving it. Show respect to the content I've added, please.

More references would be useful as well as the reference list containing direct quotes from the articles I've linked, where appropriate.

More musical samples would be useful to demonstrate dnb's variety and evolution.

A video reference to a rave would be useful to demonstrate dnb context.

In the text, dnb, drum & bass, drum and bass, drum n bass should be replaced by "drum and bass" or "drum & bass" for consistency.

Grammar and spelling needs to be improved in some parts of the text.

Sound samples and images could be moved to present the page better.

Some lists should be alphabetically ordered (countries, influenced artists, etc).

--Dustek 10:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Note that some edits have been made from my IP without logging in. That means every single edit apart from one since I began work on this article. --Dustek 11:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Ragga jungle
My inclusion of ragga jungle as a subgenre of drum and bass will probably end up with my being called various names. However note that I have added "arguably". The list of who could be called ragga jungle artists clearly overlaps with drum and bass artists. There is no clear distinction between ragga jungle and ragga tinged drum and bass or the old school jungle sound - apart from production techniques and minor differences in beats and construction. If there is no clear distinction, I believe that inclusion or exclusion is arguable. I agree techstep is clearly different from ragga jungle but what about ragga tinged jump up or dubwise? Those styles are the same drum and bass as techstep, so why isn't ragga jungle.

Breakcore and raggacore are NOT subgenres of drum and bass in my opinion but they do share important characteristics. I think they could be omitted off the list. --Dustek 11:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added an arguable subgenre list.

--Dustek 15:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Removal of links in intro
The links in the introduction were making the introduction unreadable (too much hyperlinked text). All relevant links appear further in the text. I have retained the "electronic dance music" link to make it clear that drum & bass belongs to this general wikipedia category. --Dustek 10:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikilinks
After removing the links in the intro section, I decided to go through the article removing repetitive (exception where necessary for illustrative purposes), dead (red) and superfluous (i.e. country) links. Some examples of what I have removed:

LTJ Bukem was wikilinked 6 times! Hip-hop does not need to be wikilinked except in the influences link. The US does not need a wikilink in this article.

IF you think an item is worthy of a wiki link, please write at least a stub article before adding the link. There were many glaring red links, some of them shameful. Ray Keith deserves at least a stub.

--Dustek 10:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * removing dead (red) links.... many glaring red links, some of them shameful - that's why I add them / dont remove them - hoping to provoke people into thinking "wtf, no article on that, I must fix that up..." ;) Stevekeiretsu 19:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think legibility is more important than links that go nowhere. If somebody has something to say about a matter, then they should write at least a stub before adding a link. --Dustek 09:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Alphabetical order
Have sorted out some lists into alphabetical order. --Dustek 10:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

IP
Note that 217.153.176.154 is Dustek, because I've been noting some reverts to my previous work for various reasons. --Dustek 19:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Quality
I've been comparing the quality of this article with others and I think drum and bass finely has the article it deserves.

Doubtless many will find offense at their favourite artist not being mentioned, others will feel that their hated clownstep artists are featured. Some will question the name of their city of residence being left of the list. Not everybody can be happy at the same time.

This is an encyclopedic entry but it is not an encyclopedia of drum and bass. Somebody should write one, one day but for now, I think this wiki page is one of the best sources about dnb on the net.

--Dustek 13:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation
This article has been put on hold pending one major change: the references section. References should conform to the examples given in WP:CITE. Specifically, it is difficult to evaluate the references section as a whole when every reference has the same title as every other reference. The references should summarize the citation in the title. For example, in the first citation title = "Web link reference" is more usable as title = "We are I.E. (single) listing" Fix that, and I think you look pretty good. I recognize that you have identified this as an issue for future work, but this really needs to be fixed before this can be put on the GA list. Archer904 13:22, 22 September 2006 (PST)
 * I am currently fixing this, thank you for bringing it to our attention. Themindset 21:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * After much work, this has all been fixed. Themindset 00:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the work, I didn't feel like going through all those articles again. --Dustek 07:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Countries
I don't like the replacement of the country list with continental references. You might as well write "around the world" but that wouldn't be true. Drum and bass is not generally spread around the world nor is it spread across continents. It has strong scenes in certain countries and this list is quite short but doesn't really exist in many others (dnb in Italy, Spain, Burma, Nigeria... etc?). Dnb is not regional nor widespread but concentrated in places around the world. Some country scenes are rightfully proud of their strong d&b traditions. Sao Paolo really is a great dnb city. Lodz in Poland is Central Europe's capital of dnb. Japan has a strong underground dnb movement. Etc... etc... This is of encyclopedic interest IMO. --Dustek 21:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm putting back the global scene section.

I disliked intensely the editing down of the section for the reason described.

No discussion was undertaken, instead I find another chop.

Leaving only behind an UK & US section suggests that this genre only exists in these countries.

This is both wrong and discriminatory.

If we are to take limitation to the extreme, we should cut out the US section as well. It could be strongly argued that the US scene has the same second tier status as the rest of the world as compared to the UK.

Note that I'm not saying that the note on the US scene should be deleted (or that the scene unimportant). I'm saying that the note on the scenes in other countries is just as worthy of inclusion (and perhaps expansion, in this article or in a seperate one). Drum and bass is global as the picture of Goldie at a rave in Shanghai (of all places) illustrates.

--Dustek 10:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey Dustek, I didn't mean to offend you. I'm just trying to cut down the article a little bit. Right now the article is at 79KB, and I'm trying to bring it down a bit. We cannot consult about every change before making them, so if you disagree with a change I make simply revert and bring it here. Note that FAC criteria says that anything over 50KB tends to be too much, so we should be looking at ways to reduce the size (perhaps splitting the section into a seperate article, as you suggested, is the way to go here). Themindset 19:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it's relevant to add Germany to the list in the Global section. German artists may not sell as much (in terms of units) as do artists from the Anglophone countries, but Germany has a vibrant scene and has probably as strong a scene as some of the other places listed (Netherlands, Czech Republic, Hungary, New Zealand, Canada...). Just because names like The Panacea, The Green Man or Phace don't ring as many bells as Goldie, Ed Rush or Shy FX doesn't mean they haven't made a relevant contribution, not to mention the many and varied German acts pushing back the frontiers of the sound today (N.Phect & Dizplay, Giana Brotherz, Misanthrop, Duo Infernale, Amaning...). 68.103.232.126 11:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

First D&B tune?
(By the way, nice work guys, looking good.)

On the matter of the first jungle / d&b tune - I recently remembered reading a magazine article years ago which referred to 'We Are I.E.' as having been recorded in 1989. I then re-read a Lennie De Ice quote on an old compilation where he stated that he recorded the tune in 1988, prior to its 1991 release. This would make it older than 'Radio Babylon', 'Wickedest Sound' etc etc.

Just wondering if anyone can verify this any further either way? --digest 6 October 06 (UTC)

If you can find the reference, then we can add the claim. Every source I've read says 1991 for "We Are I.E.". Doesn't really matter, its still one of the very first. --Dustek 15:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Artist quote was from inlay of 'Routes From The Jungle' CD comp (Virgin, 1995, cat. VTDCD 46). Can't remember the magazine article, twas about 10 yrs ago or something.

As ar as I can remember (been listening since 1991) this tune only really got big in its 1992 remix form, it was a massive pirate tune in late '92 - early '93. I doubt if it got played out that much in 1988 (if it was on dub at that time) - I was more interested if anyone had heard it played out pre-1991, had it on pre-release, or knew the artist etc. Living people are the best references you can get... --Digest 15:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Profanity
I don't think Dj Hype has to be quoted as saying "fucking" for this article (and I am the one who put this quote in here). Doesn't add anything to the content (as compared to him saying "drum and bass is fucking jungle" which would be adding emphasis). --Dustek 20:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Featured Article Candidate?
A list of things that need to be done before applying for FAC:


 * 1) Proofread the article. Spellcheck, fact repition, coherency, etc.
 * 2) Reduce the size (and perhaps split large sections off into seperate articles). Current size of the article is 79KB, FAC usually wants no longer than 50KB.
 * 3) Get at least some hard (read:book) references. These are few and far between, but there's at least one book out there on DnB.
 * 4) Please add more here...

Somebody else

1) I'm going to be pretty busy for the next month but I could put in some work.

2) Size = the history section could be split off HOWEVER this needs discussion. Please nobody remove this section without discussing and possibly voting.

3) Book references = I've got a copy of All Crews but it has been loaned out. Please somebody find quotes and put them in references.

The work needed to get the article to featured status will probably be less than that required to get it to Good status, editing and proof-reading being, IMHO, the most important aspects.

--Dustek 13:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * From my understanding, they are very picky over at WP:FAC, so it may be more work than we think. But I'm up for it, I'm going to try and find a copy of All Crews tonight. Themindset 17:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Plagiarism and deletion of paragraph
1) Found this plagiarism of a paragraph that I wrote. "In spite of its specific characteristics which would appear to limit its variety, drum and bass is a very varied musical style, ranging from laid back jazzy tracks like Roni Size's "Brown Paper Bag" to radio friendly dance track's like Shy FX's "Shake Ur Body" to ragga influenced rude bwoy tracks like Chase & Status' "2 Tone Sound" to atmospheric and moody tracks like 4 Hero's "Mr Kirk's Nightmare" to extremely fast, forbidding & aggressive techstep tracks like Technical Itch's "Stealth". This is only a sample of its variety, which could be compared to that of jazz."

http://toronto.craigslist.org/eve/214927846.html No GPL mention.

2) Does anybody know if this article is earlier or later to the appropriate fragments in Wiki http://uploud.com/history14.htm?

In particular note the fragment that Themindset deleted from Wiki but appears in the article: "There are many views of what constitutes "real" drum and bass as it has many scenes and styles within it, from heavy pounding bass lines to liquid funk and downright 'chilled out' elevator music. It has been compared with jazz where the listener can get very different sounding music all coming under the same music genre, because like drum and bass, it is more of an approach, or a tradition, than a style. Drum and bass, however, progresses at a rapid pace, tunes sounding old and of dated style after only a few years."

Actually I really like that paragraph, not mine.

Here are some references (apart from the above article) http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=18764 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E05E3DA1538F936A25752C1A961958260

As far as variety is concerned - reference can simply be made to the subgenre list. It must result from the subgenre list that drum and bass is a varied musical style.

I'd like the paragraph undeleted OR if it is copied from an earlier article, rewritten.

--Dustek 13:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed it as it didn't fit with the paragraph from the lead. I really think we need to be more collaborative. Please try and reincorporate it yourself in a form that flows with the prose around it. Themindset 17:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I understand which paragraph you liked, I returned it. I hope you realize that right now we are the only two active non-anon editors, and that we should be-bold in making changes, and don't be afraid of reverting any of my changes you don't approve of (I won't take it personally). So the process should be: bold change (and if you disagree:), revert, discuss. We shouldn't have to discuss every change before it's made, (aside from truely major changes like the DnB history article you speak of). Themindset 17:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't like deletion without discussion. Addition without discussion I like. --Dustek 08:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

History of drum and bass
OK, generally I would be bold and just do this, but Dustek wants discussion and !voting first. So here it is, let's discuss breaking off a major chunk of the article into History of drum and bass. Themindset 17:21, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Proposal: We either breakoff the section, or we keep the section as is:


 * Breakoff as I am the one making the proposal. Themindset 17:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Breakoff BUT with a relevant shortened section remaining (a digest of the history article) and comments in the editing text that any changes to the history must be made to both articles so that discrepancies do not appear. This is very important IMO. Shortened remaining section should be discussed here before the articles are split. --Dustek 08:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * So, you say it needs to be discussed... discuss it. It needs to be done, I find that it's great to discuss big decisions, but we can't have a discussion about every little change in the article - it's not realistic. Keeping in mind that changes on a wiki are not permanent, we should follow Wikipedia guidelines and be bold. Themindset 17:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Discussion as in writing (and editing) the fragment up here before it gets put on the main page. I would suggest copying the entirety of the current history into the new article. --Dustek 16:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, instead of a summary history, perhaps it would be better to write something on the lines of: "For the history of drum & bass music, please refer to the History article which details the origins of this genre in UK rave culture, the origin of the name jungle, the appearance of junglist subculture, the change in name and musical evolution to drum & bass and its development through crisis and rebirth." with perhaps a picture of Goldie. This makes keeping the summary and history article non-contradictory easier.


 * I would put the musical samples from the history part of this article into a seperate section of the main article, wouldn't want them to go to waste as it were. --Dustek 21:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Do it!!! Themindset 22:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok,later today, I'll need about two hours.


 * Finished. What do you think of the two new articles? --Dustek 16:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not crazy about the title, I think the more simple "History of drum and bass" is better. I will change it now, please let me know if you disagree. Themindset 16:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Fine but please add redirect pages for "History of jungle" and "History of drum & bass". As I've said previously I believe jungle and drum & bass are the same BUT there are people who believe otherwise and for them, half of the drum & bass history article is a history of jungle. Its certainly a lot better in quality than the oldschool jungle article. Dustek 17:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, completely eliminating the history section and replacing it with one paragraph is not enough - there should still be an outline of d&b history there. Please refer to How_to_break_up_a_page to get an idea of Wikipedia policy on such splits. Themindset 16:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Fine but I think two paragraphs is enough for a summary otherwise we'll have people editing this article instead of the history one. Add one detailand others will want to add another and another and another. Dustek 17:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I added references to the summary history but Firefoxman was editing at the same time and a conflict appeared. The references got wiped. I'll redo this later unless somebody else does so, hint hint. --Dustek 13:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Linked vids
I don't like them, mostly because their presence on youtube is a violation of copyright law. Any media used on wikipedia should be present in the Wiki commons or at least otherwise legal. --Dustek 11:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the video links. Certain kinds of pages should not be linked from Wikipedia articles.

[] "A page that violates the copyrights of others per contributors' rights and obligations. Sites which fail to provide licensing information or to respond to requests for licensing information should not be used. There are currently a large number of links to YouTube and similar sites in violation of this principle. If a linked clip has no licensing information it should be removed or reverted. (Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States.)" --Dustek 09:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Internet Radio links
I've removed this section as it will lead to an uncontrollable list, one that we were quite right in removing some time ago. Themindset 18:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

External Link Addition
Follow the link: http://www.drummingstyles.com/Genres/Drum_N_Bass/index.html There are some drumbeats recorded - a human playing them. There are several noted examples with recorded clips to go with them, to help people better understand the rhythms and feel that helps to create a great dnb groove. I didnt want to add it to the main page, because I only want it to be on there is others agree that is it useful. Please let me know what you think, and perhaps someone can add it to the main page under external links.

Also, i am interested in reviving the Internet Radio links. Perhaps there could be 3 of the best ones?

Great section guys, really tight work. Thanks, Joel —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.146.3.155 (talk • contribs).

Junglist hacking
Somebody tried to hack my wikipedia account yesterday. Probably in connection with my edits here. --Dustek 09:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Clean up on web references dates
Could somebody clean up the web references access dates so that they are all in the same format. Thanks. --Dustek 16:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

bias
This article seems to be written as if it is taken for grated that drum and bass is the best thing that ever happened to music, I have already corrected several ridiculous comments such as one claming that drum and bass has particularly fine sonic qualities that cannot be reproduced on home equipment. (This of course is rubbish and assumes that no one in the world has a sub woofer or a volume knob that goes above 90dB). This sort of article is what brings wikipedia down, it is obviously written by fans of the genre who have little to no knowledge of the wider world of music or its technology, and as such ready more like propaganda than an encyclopaedia. I move that this article be removed for serious revision by an unbiased party. [End of statement]


 * The part you mention quite clearly referred to the frequency response, not "fine sonic quality". It's easy to mock something as ridiculous when you completely reword it in a ridiculous way.  Perhaps you can find the average consumer hi-fi, ghettoblaster or ipod headphones which produce a decent 30hz subbass?  Oh wait - they don't.  Hence the article's original, correct, and not biased or propagandist, comment. Stevekeiretsu 19:43, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all sign your name.

Second of all, nowhere is the statement made that dnb is the 'best' type of music.

Thirdly, it is provable that dnb is best appreciated on high quality sound equipment, to a larger degree than some other types music. Highly procued dnb (say Dillinja) uses low range frequencies that cannot be reproduced on home equipment, unless it is of very high quality. This of course differentiates it from say pop or rock which have less demanding frequency response. Nobody is writing that dnb is better because of this response. If you do not understand why dnb demands high quality listening conditions, then you have no knowledge of music.

Fourthly, this article has gone through a 'good article' review which did not find it biased.

Fifthly, if you think an unbiased article on dnb is biased, then you're biased against it.

Sixthly, if you have a point to make, discuss it here before you make your biased comments in the text.

Seventhly, take your combative attitude somewhere else.

--Dustek 16:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Eightly, if you want to call bollocks on dnb producers and journalists (http://www.knowledgemag.co.uk/features.asp?SectionID=1031&uid=&MagID=1063&ReviewID=1653&PageNumber=1&arcMagID=1060), then do so but it doesn't look good on you. Who is biased?

--Dustek 16:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)