Talk:Drum and bass/Archive 1

Subgenres substructure
I have tried to give some substructure to the subgenres though light and dark. I suppose the other way to make a main split would be between "-n-bass" subgenres that use Amen/breakbeak samples vs "-step" subgenres that use programmed/synthesized drums? Which is best? Also what to do with the mainstream/jump-up? Suggestions?

I feel like there should be a new subgenre that includes artists like Noisia, Evol Intent and Pendulum. They have blended dnb, hip hop, dubstep and house to make a new kind of music but I dunno what it's called. lol 47.152.42.167 (talk) 00:17, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Tempo
Anyone who claims that a faster track has less complex breaks than a slower one is obviously not a Venetian Snares fan... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.33.109 (talk) 16:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Venetian Snares is closer to breakcore than drum and bass. Blendage 11:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed! In fact he is completely breakcore. But it still proves that faster beats are not always less complex. In fact I strongly disagree with this statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.33.109 (talk) 13:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I see you have trouble understanding the complex statement that is "A faster drum and bass track will therefore generally have a less complex drum pattern than a slower one."

In general means, in general.

Venetian Snares produces fast music with complex drumbeats.

Most drum & bass producers use less and less complex beats, the faster the tempo. Twostep vs Amen.

--Dustek 14:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Tracks like those of Venetian Snares existed back in 1995 before the term breakcore even existed. Important point about the speed of breaks also agreed by me Smartgenes (talk) 18:34, 2 August 2010 (UTC

I think the thing that people are losing track of in the word "Complexity" is not complexity in macro scale; ie kick/snare pattern cohesion (breakcore vs 2 step), but in micro scale, ie; swing. It's much harder to achieve the looser kind of hi-hat, kick and snare swing timings you could hit in the 90's standard 160-174 range (2step "kick and snare and a kick snare and" pattern, or hardstepped tuplet pattern "kick and snare kick and snare kick and" ) than you can in a faster track with patterns that are recognisably "dnb", hence a lot of modern jump up that sits at around 178/179 using far sparser rhythmic structure,  (body-rock style 8th note "clownstep" swing) also, (not including the second kick in any given bar of a drum phrase, "kick and snare and a and snare and). Rubysay (talk) 15:16, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Issues
Is it really fair to say that jungle and drum'n'bass are the same thing? I always think of jungle as a faster, more Amen-break focussed, dirtier drum'n'bass, which is usually more MC-oriented.

This is only partially true, drum & bass initially had more edited drum breaks and heavier basslines. Jungle could seem faster and seem like it had more breaks because there was less separation and editing of drum breaks. When tech-step drum & bass became more popular I noticed new people on the scene began to have a wrong distinction between drum and bass as tech-step and jungle as heavy breakbeats. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smartgenes (talk • contribs) 18:21, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, can it REALLY be considered an underground genre any more?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.33.109 (talk) 13:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Absolutely, especially in the States, most people have never even heard of Drum & Bass and have no idea what it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.79.95.148 (talk) 15:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The wiki-dominant US faction have no idea that the two are different and that one actually came before the other. But it is a useless debate to start again (we tried a couple of years ago) as it will ultimately get put to a vote and there are more US wiki-users than UK. End-result = Bad Information... but what can you do.202.138.58.48 (talk) 09:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe some clarification is still in order. Yes the terms "Drum and Bass" and "Jungle" are somewhat interchangeable, however there is still plenty of dispute on whether they are the same thing. Jungle generally refers to the "choppage" style music of the early 90s before the term Drum and Bass was coined or even heard of. There are plenty of people who share Naphta's point of view given in his interview - "As for the ‘drum n bass’ sound, obviously Ireland has spawned a bunch of skilled producers in that field, some of whom are doing very well for themselves these days – from Calibre and Beta 2 to Zero Tolerance and Polska… but while I appreciate and respect what they all do in their own areas, I wouldn’t really think of any of it as ‘Jungle’..."
 * what I'm getting at is, there needs to be a section in there saying there is dispute between followers of the genre(s) - some (usually the ones who prefer the 'Jungle' sound over the 'Drum and Bass' one) prefer to differentiate the two, while others say they are the same. Both sides of the argument are just as valid really, and both deserve to be known. (James.faction (talk) 01:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC))
 * what's wrong with this?. - Zeibura (Talk) 14:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a section as Zeibura pointed out... --Dustek (talk) 15:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I grew up in East London listening to Jungle so let me just explain it to you... Jungle came first and was an evolution of the faster hardcore being played at the time. As music evolved the music became drum and bass and that's what we call it today. They are not separate genres but neither are they the same. I suppose the simplest explanation is that jungle is a subre-genre of what we call drum and bass today. --87.75.28.66 (talk) 14:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a separate article on oldschool jungle, which is the evolution of hardcore you refer to. Really, the bit in the opening paragraph which says drum and bass is aka jungle is not prescribing the viewpoint that they are and always have been exactly the same thing, all it's saying is that the two terms are commonly used to refer to the same genre, drum and bass, which is true. Later on in the article, there's a section which goes into detail about the names and different opinions behind what they mean/have meant in the past. Remember that music genres' names can and do change - house music was around for a few years before it started being called house music, so it's hardly implausible that drum and bass was around before it started being called such as well. - Zeibura (Talk) 16:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

While it is true that Jungle is a form of Drum and Bass, the opposite cannot be said. The terms aren't interchangeable. Period. I strongly suggest removing the dual appellation of this category and just name it Drum and Bass once and for all. You do not build a Jungle song like any other DnB song and even though Jungle was teh style that was predominant in the early DnB scene, it does not make it a generic term just like Rock and roll isn't the same as modern rock. 69.196.185.12 (talk) 06:24, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Kool FM
I've added much needed info on the London pirate Jungle DnB radio station Kool FM. By reading the main article I'm sure you'll agree with me that comment is due. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Markieman234 (talk • contribs) 04:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC).

Links
The DNB Arena and Dogs on Acid links lead to reference materials. Dogs On Acid is in itself a phenomen worthy of encyclopedic entry. Rolldabeats is a database. --Dustek 11:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to submit http://www.MayhemDrumnBass.co.uk as a good all round Drum n Bass website.

Consistency
If the article uses "drum and bass" throughout, don't start using "Drum and Bass" (except where appropriate, as a subgenre name or title). --Dustek 11:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

In this case it's probably useful as there is not one standard way of writing it. Smartgenes (talk) 18:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Abbreviations
All of the common abbreviations of drum and bass, such as DnB, dnb, drum & bass, drum n bass are of encyclopedic interest since they are names widely used for the subject. They also help to lead readers to the article, for instance if they type dnb into the wiki search. --Dustek 11:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Bringing this article forward
Correcting grammar and spelling is worthwhile but to really increase the quality of this article, you (that means you!) has to put some proper work in.

The article needs more pictures and more media. That means uploading material, labelling it and putting it into the text.

The article also needs to be read by somebody fresh to its content to clean up inconsistencies (such as usage of names) and POV.

I put a lot work into this article last year and I would appreciate somebody doing the same this year. --Dustek 11:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Archiving this talk page
Any objections to my archiving the first half of this talk page? --Dustek 11:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

In the lack of dissent or discussion, I'm archiving. --Dustek 10:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Internet radio
I'm pretty sure that DnB is broadcast by a number of internet radio stations, but none are mentioned in the "Radio" section of the article. I do know Digitally Imported has a Drum and Bass channel that runs 24/7, and I'm sure there are others. These should perhaps be researched and added in. BloodDoll 14:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Look in the history. We used to have a section for internet radio.  We dutifily listed the ones which (to us) were obvious suspects, bassdrive, whatever.  Then everyone saw there was a section they could link up their little stream and added a whole shedload.  How to judge the difference between a station "notable" enough to meet wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and spam?  It's impossible to do so fairly, so we ended up removing it.


 * Wikipedia policy does say stuff about how it's not supposed to be a list of links, so I think what would best fit policy would be finding (or making, if you're so actively inclined) a "neutral" list of dnb internet radio stations, and linking to that. Possible locations it may already exist: dmoz or similar project? doa/dnba thread? blog post?


 * Stevekeiretsu 23:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

We seem to spend half our time removing links. I'd remove the external links section completely but the current links are useful and of encyclopedic interest. --Dustek 12:00, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Major tracks by year
I've put together this rough list (put together with CTRL+C) of significant tracks using the BBC timeline plus equal input from junglists. I don't have the energy to reformat the list and put in full details but if somebody has the energy to do it...

''L10 To Get In (and remix L20 To Get In) - Shut Up and Dance '89 Spliffhead / Hooligan 69 - Shut Up and Dance '90 Mr Kirk's Nightmare - 4 Hero '90 The Psycho EP - DJ SS '90 Some Justice - Urban Shakedown & Mickey Finn '91 We Are I.E. - Lennie de Ice '91 28 Gun Bad Boy - A Guy Called Gerald '91

Major tunes 1992 Terminator - Rufige Kru (Goldie & Rob Playford) Demon's Theme - LTJ Bukem Stepper's Delight - Smith & Mighty Hold It Down EP - 2 Bad Mice A New Breed of Ravers - DJ SS Here Comes the Drumz - Nasty Habits (Doc Scott) 28 Gun Bad Boy LP - A Guy Called Gerald Major Tunes 1993 Valley of the Shadows - Origin Unknown Music - LTJ Bukem Lion of Judah - Conquering Lion Music Box - DJ Die & Roni Size Bludclot Artattack - Ed Rush & Nico Breakbeat Pressure EPs - DJ SS Gangsta Kid - Shy FX (feat. Gunsmoke) Renegade Snares - Omni Trio

Major tunes 1994 Terrorist - Renegade (Ray Keith) Original Nuttah - Shy FX with UK Apache Incredible - M Beat with General Levy Burial - Levicticus (aka Jumping Jack Frost) Code Red - Conquering Lion Timestretch - Roni Size It's A Jazz Thing - DJ Die & Roni Size Rrrroll da Beats - DJ Hype Deep Love - Dillinja Inner City Life - Goldie Parallel Universe - 4 Hero

Major Tunes 1995 Pulp Fiction - Alex Reece Warning - Firefox P-Funk Era - Pascal Circles - Adam F Babylon - Splash The Western - PFM The Mutant - DJ Trace Super Sharp Shooter - DJ Zinc Set Speed - DJ Krust The Angels Fell EP - Dillinja Champion Sound - Black Star ft Top Cat Major tunes 1996 Peace, Love & Unity - DJ Hype Reach Out - DJ Zinc Dictation - Gang Related & Mask (Krust & Roni Size) Skylab - Ed Rush Killamanjaro - Ed Rush Earth Vol. 1 - Good Looking Recs compilation The Rhode Tune - Flytronix Junglist (DJ Zinc remix) - Tribe Of Issachar

Major tunes 1997 Brown Paper Bag - Reprazent Warhead - DJ Krust Ni Ten Ichi Ryu - Photek Circles - Adam F Acid Track - Dillinja Shadow Boxing - Nasty Habits Piper - Jonny L New Forms album - Roni Size Reprazent (see picture above) Modus Operandi album - Photek Major Tunes 1998 Bambaata - Shy FX The Nine - Bad Company No Reality - Ram Trilogy Miles from Home - Peshay Salsa - John B Ultra Obscene - Breakbeat Era The One - Mampi Swift Killa Bees - Usual Suspects

Major tunes 1999 Clear Skyz - DJ Die Watermelon/Sicknote - Ed Rush & Optical Bacteria/Gas Mask - Ed Rush & Optical The Pulse - Bad Company The Fear EP - Bad Company Molten Beats LP - Ram Trilogy Ark Angel - Rufige Kru Twisted Individual - Muzik

Major tunes 2000 Tripped - Mampi Swift (picture disc above) Terrorist (Dom & Roland Remix) - Renegade Sonar (Trace & Optical remix) - DJ Trace Deadline - Digital Champion Sound (Total Science Hardcore Will Never Die Mix) - Q Project

Major tunes 2001 Go Dillinja - Dillinja Body Rock - Andy C & Shimon Planet Dust - Bad Company Jungle Jungle - Total Science Lose Control - Marcus Intalex & ST Files Midnight - Un-Cut feat. Jenna G Cybotron LP - Dillinja '01

Major Tunes 2002 LK (Carolina Carol Bela) - DJ Marky, XRS feat Stamina MC Shake Ur Body - Shy FX & T Power feat. Di Don't Wanna Know - Shy FX & T Power feat. MC Skibadee & Di Messiah - Konflict Return of Forever - High Contrast Twist 'Em Out - Dillinja Big Bad Bass Vol. 1 - Dillinja & Lemon D

Major tunes 2003-'04 School Disco - Baron '03 Tooled Up Remixes EP (incl Gimp Mask & Crap Rinse Out mixes) - Twisted Individual '03 Billion Dollar Gravy album - London Elekricity '03 In The Grind - Dillinja '04 True Romance - D-Bridge & Vegas '04 Racing Green - High Contrast '04 So Vain - Breakage '04 Drop It Down - Calibre ft Singing Fats '04 The Odyssey - Drumsound & Simon 'Bassline' Smith '04 You're Mine - Potential Bad Boy ft Yush '04 No More - Roni Size ft Beverly Knight & Dynamite MC '04 Defcon 69 - Total Science '04 X-Ray - Subfocus '04

Major tunes 2005-'06 Love's Theme - Chase & Status '05 Selector - DJ Hazard '05 Break The Cycle - Hive & Keaton ft Gina Rene '05 Forever - Ill Logic & Raf '05 Thirsty (Lemon D Tearout Mix) - ODB & Black Keith '05 Bollock Yoghurt - Twisted Individual '05 Slam - Pendulum '05 Slippery Slopes - Clipz '05 Thunder - DJ Die & Photek ft Hollie G '05 Desperado - Artificial Intelligence '05 Girlz - Potential Bad Boy & MC Fats ft Yush '05 Feelings - Shy FX '05 Tarantula - Fresh vs Pendulum ft Tenor Fly & Spyda '05 The Immortal - Fresh '06 Deep - TC & Jakes '06 Voodoo (Pendulum remix) - The Prodigy '06 Drive In - Baron '06 Everyday - Shy FX & T Power '06

subfocus - swamp thing

1992 Dub War - Dance Conspiracy

1993 Helicopter Tune - Deep Blue (thanks Mr Jones) Further Intrigue pts 1, 2, 3 - Tango and Fallout Don't Come No Ruffer - DJ SS

Bludclot Artattack - Ed Rush

1996 Quest - Andy C Still - Boymerang (released 97) Sight Beyond - John B

1998 Sound in Motion - Origin Unknown Turbulence - Moving Fusion Tough At The Top - EZ Rollers Funktion - Ed Rush and Optical

solarise - jmagik Shy Fx - Chopper

2002 -

Vault - Pendulum Mo' Fire - Rawhill Cru

2003 -

Nosher - Total Science (Baron Remix) Don't Tell Me - Concord Dawn Another Planet - Pendulum Signal - Fresh Bandwagon Blues - Twisted Individual

2004 -

Odyssey - Simon Bassline Smith & Drumsound Masochist - Pendulum Turnstyle - Baron (Zen Remix) Pack of Wolves - Nightbreed Follow Da Vision - Krust

Black Secret Technology - A Guy Called Gerald 1995

Parallel Universe - 4Hero 1995

Timeless - Goldie 1995

Colours - Adam F 1997

Logical Progression - LTJ Bukem 1996

New Forms - Roni Size & Reprazent 1997

Wormhole - Ed Rush & Optial 1998

Cybotron - Dillinja 2001

Clockwork - Skynet & Stakka 2001

Torque - DJ Trace & Ed Rush 1997

Book of the Bad - Bad Company 2001

Mysteries of Funk - Grooverider 2001

Set It Off - Shy Fx & T-Power 2002

Nightlife - Andy C 2003

Lie Cheat & Steal - Klute 2003

Andy C Presents Ram Raiders the Mix - Andy C 2004

High Society - High Contrast 2004

Driving Insane - Black Sun Empire 2004

Return to V - Roni Size 2004

Chronology - Dom & Roland 2004

Power Ballads - London Elektricity 2005

Brave Nu World - Nu Tone 2005

Hold Your Colours - Pendulum 2005

Ghetto Blatser - Cyantific 2006

Jenna G - For Lost Friends 2006

bad company - the nine 1999 bad company - torpedo 2002

1994 Predator - Shimon Da Bass II Dark - Asylum

1996 The Unofficial Ghost - Doc Scott

1998 Wish you had something - Jonny L

dillinja - grimey M.I.S.T - warp 1 ed rush & optical wormhole lp optical - to shape the future remix future cut - whiplash code red - ?conquering lion? dom & roland - cant punish me bad company - the pulse 2000 (remix) kenny ken - everyman dj krust - angles ram trilogy - no reality (remix) calibre - mr majestic jo - r-type Liquid - Sweet Harmony 2 Bad Mice - Bombscare Zero B - Lock Up Isotonik - Different Strokes Doc Scott - NHS Manix - Feel Real Good SL2 - DJ's Take Control Sonz Of a Loop Da Loop Era - Far Out Rabbit City - Beyond Control rap - so in love, roughest gunark, more time..... lighter tune -dj ss aphrodite- deep in the jungle guntalk - rebel rose dred bass - B2B remix dj taktix - our children, ray keith - the chopper (original/shy fx remix) (dread) ray keith - dark soldier (dread) dj rap(?) - spritual aura dead dred - dred bass (moving shadow) dj krome & mr time - ganja man (tearin vinyl) dj krome & mr time - the licence (tearin vinyl) mask - square off (dope dragon) new blood - worries in the dance q-project - champion sound (legend) taktix - its the way (back 2 basics) jo - r-type (awesome) the house crew - super hero (production house) noise factory - breakage 4 (i bring you the future) (3rd party) shy fx - this style (s.o.u.r.) a-zone - calling all the people l-double - little rollers vol 1 (flex) dj nut nut - special dedication (hard step) ray keith - something out there (dread) demolition man ft prizna - fire (original/urban shakedown mix) mampi swift - 2nd strike (true playaz) mampi swift - jaws (charge) moving fusion - the beggining e.p. (ram) bad company & trace(?) - nitrous Valley of the shadows marvelous cain - hitman (i.d.(?)) 1994 m-beat - rumble (renk) riiiide the punnaaany! splash - babylon (deejay) shy fx - the message (dunno if this was released on anything other than a bootleg) dopeskills - 6 million ways (frontline) tribe of issachar - junglist (congo natty) 1996(?) dj trend - 2 degrees (tnt) jb - say what (the blind man) (back2basics) roni size - 26 bass/snapshot (full cycle) 1999 blackstar ft top cat - champion dj (congo natty) rebel mc ft tenor fly - wickedest sound (desire) 1991''

Additional tracks

I'd suggest creating a seperate entry perhaps with a graphic timeline to link into this article and the history of dnb article.

--Dustek 12:08, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

i would agree with most of the earlier selections there, but I would quetion a couple of the ravier examples.

There is no doubt drum and bass was a part of the rave scene to begin with. There is just a question as to whether people like Rebel MC, Ragga Twins. Gerald, Lennie de Ice / Reel 2 Reel, Genaside weren't doing something unique within rave / hip hop / ragga that got jumped on by a lot of the hardcore producers during the 1992 / 1994 period.

I'm not sure producers should get props for their ravey, cheesy, happy hardcore 1991 / 92 tunes just cause they went on to do jungle in '93 / '94. Just give them their props for the later tunes IMO. And I am someone who loves rave, and grew up on it btw, but this is about jungle and drum & bass.

If those ravey tunes get included, I would prefer a lot of the bleep and belgian stuff got included too, casue a lot of that is more relevant to drum & bass than happy, piano rave tunes, but then you're gonna be looking at a massive list. Just exclude the cheesy rave IMO.

--Digest 8 May 2007

I'd actually prefer somebody else other than me to cull the list and make it presentable.

I'm sure that a list of significant tracks would immediately become a battleground for arguments over what is significant and what is not, which in turn is a good thing as conflict leads to creativity. We've been stagnating a bit here...

--Dustek 14:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Paragraph Removal
I have removed part of a paragraph:

"These techniques are fully appreciated in a club or rave environment as only large, professional-grade woofers, coupled with powerful cross-over amplifiers, can fully reproduce the sound of the eponymous bass drum, the frequencies of which are sometimes lower than audible (they can however be felt on the body). This has led to the creation of very large and intensely loud soundsystems by producers wishing to show off their tracks in a true high fidelity environment, such as Dillinja's Valve Sound System. This does not mean, however, that the music cannot be appreciated on personal equipment."

Firstly, the statement that only professional grade woofers are capable of reproducing the basslines present within drum and bass is simply untrue. Using spectographic analysis software the lowest frequencies the vast majority of tracks hit is around 30hz, well within the range of many decent hifi systems, studio monitor systems (how do you think producers mix the stuff in the first place?) and subwoofers. There is no such thing as a "cross-over amplifer", crossovers do a different job to amplifiers, and they are rarely part of the same unit in home or pro audio. It is also worth noting that "intensely loud" and "high fidelity" are not particularly related, and i doubt that many people would classify the valve sound system, for example as "hi-fi", though impressive it is.

I think it could be stated that many people feel that drum and bass is more enjoyable in a club environment, and i believe the valve sound system and others is of note, however the section i removed was basically a load of crap

Noodle snacks 11:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

In comes somebody deleting sections because they do not like them.

Bad editing etiquette.

Drum and bass is perfectly listenable at home on a good system. However there is no way that a typical home system can produce the same range of sound as a club system. The Valve Soundsystem is a high fidelity system. It was not created to be loud, but to accurately reproduce music. It is a deep bass system playing bass that cannot be recreated at home. It is of course loud but it remains hi-fidelity.

I'm returning part of the archive as I think this is the same guy again.

--Dustek 12:48, 12 May 2007 (UTC) bias

This article seems to be written as if it is taken for grated that drum and bass is the best thing that ever happened to music, I have already corrected several ridiculous comments such as one claming that drum and bass has particularly fine sonic qualities that cannot be reproduced on home equipment. (This of course is rubbish and assumes that no one in the world has a sub woofer or a volume knob that goes above 90dB). This sort of article is what brings wikipedia down, it is obviously written by fans of the genre who have little to no knowledge of the wider world of music or its technology, and as such ready more like propaganda than an encyclopaedia. I move that this article be removed for serious revision by an unbiased party. [End of statement]

The part you mention quite clearly referred to the frequency response, not "fine sonic quality". It's easy to mock something as ridiculous when you completely reword it in a ridiculous way. Perhaps you can find the average consumer hi-fi, ghettoblaster or ipod headphones which produce a decent 30hz subbass? Oh wait - they don't. Hence the article's original, correct, and not biased or propagandist, comment. Stevekeiretsu 19:43, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all sign your name.

Second of all, nowhere is the statement made that dnb is the 'best' type of music.

Thirdly, it is provable that dnb is best appreciated on high quality sound equipment, to a larger degree than some other types music. Highly procued dnb (say Dillinja) uses low range frequencies that cannot be reproduced on home equipment, unless it is of very high quality. This of course differentiates it from say pop or rock which have less demanding frequency response. Nobody is writing that dnb is better because of this response. If you do not understand why dnb demands high quality listening conditions, then you have no knowledge of music.

Fourthly, this article has gone through a 'good article' review which did not find it biased.

Fifthly, if you think an unbiased article on dnb is biased, then you're biased against it.

Sixthly, if you have a point to make, discuss it here before you make your biased comments in the text.

Seventhly, take your combative attitude somewhere else.

--Dustek 16:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Eightly, if you want to call bollocks on dnb producers and journalists (http://www.knowledgemag.co.uk/features.asp?SectionID=1031&uid=&MagID=1063&ReviewID=1653&PageNumber=1&arcMagID=1060), then do so but it doesn't look good on you. Who is biased?

--Dustek 16:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

It is debatable as to if what are essentially PA systems (such as the valve sound system), could be considered high quality in the scheme of things. I would go so far as to say that drum and bass demands less high quality listening conditions than say, a stereo recording of a string quartet. If you had any experiance producing tracks, you would realise the amount of processing that sounds go through. "Quality" demands are not very high. I'd also question your understanding of "frequency response", much PA gear rolls off at 10-15khz and the best of pro audio subs roll off at 30hz at the lowest. There is often a misconception regarding bass and how "low" frequencies actually are. PA systems are certainly capable of much higher SPL levels, however they are definately not capable of more extended frequency response, at either end of the spectrum. Most pro audio subwoofers, (since bass is the main issue here), are either bandpass, ported or horn loaded in design. bandpass/ported boxes will roll off at 24db/oct after their cutoff frequency, so if they are speced to have a -3db point at 30hz, then they will be nearly 30db down by 15hz, making it highly unlikely that these subsonics you talk of are produced. Horn subwoofers also roll off fairly quickly after their respective cutoff frequencies, and often have to be divided into multiple boxes that form one mouth to get the size down. If you had any experiance designing these kinds of enclosures you would realise that there is a relationship between box volume, efficiency and low frequency extension. Pro-Audio subwoofers have to be bigger to get the same extension as home audio ones, as they are more efficient, a 30hz cut-off (-3db) is about as low as you get before the boxes become inpractical to use. IIRC correctly the valve sound system is stacks of horn loaded subs. I wonder how one can get an unbiased party in here to make an objective descision, preferably one that has some real audio knowledge and experiance.

220.253.105.16 23:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm removing the debatable comment.

Dillinja states that the Valve Sound System is a high fidelity system, not a high volume system. He is referenced in the text. I think he has real audio knowledge and experience. 

If you find him debatable, please find & cite references.

I'm not against modifying this article, to bring this forward what you need to do is provide references, not your knowledge and POV.

Oh, most home systems will not reproduce bass because most home systems have tiny plastic subwoofers, if they have them at all.

--Dustek 10:03, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I want to know exactly what part of this paragraph is debatable:

These bass techniques are fully appreciated in a club or rave environments which are generally where high quality woofers and coupled high powerful amplifiers can be found. Large systems can fully reproduce the sound of the eponymous bass drum in the most demanding productions, the frequencies of which are sometimes lower than audible (they can however be felt on the body). This has led to the creation of very large and intensely loud touring soundsystems by producers wishing to show off their tracks in a true high fidelity environment, such as Dillinja's Valve Sound System which was created as a high-fidelity, not high volume, sound system. Dillinja refuses to play even 'standard' club system believing them to be inadequate to fully reproduce the bass frequencies to his levels. [1]This does not mean, however, that the music cannot be appreciated at home or acceptably accurately reproduced on personal equipment.

--Dustek 10:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The first paragraph is biased, as that the bass techniques are only "fully appreciated" within a club environment, which represents a viewpoint, not fact. You shouldn't need a reference to realise this. The word "high fidelity" is also thrown about a fair bit, the definition of high fidelity used here does not match that of the relevant wikipedia article, hence this term should be avoided. One of the major problems with large sound reinforcement systems such as valve is the large number of mid-top boxes. They cause comb filtering, due to the delay involved between each sound source, this makes it very difficult to get flat response, because the effect varies with position, it can't be EQed out. Most kick drums have a fundemental of around 80hz (take a look on an RTA), it isn't the kick drums that constitute the low bass lines, often its a reece (two slightly detuned sawtooth waves with a lowpass and processing, distortion etc) or some sort of edited 808 (sine with some lfo on the frequency right at the attack to give it some punch and an ADSR filter) "bass-line" or "bass" may be more accurate terminology.

Noodle snacks 04:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with the edit as it stands now, there is not much point wasting more time and energy over this issue and the paragraph is a fine compromise. People - please get involved with improving the article in other ways. --Dustek 17:37, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Fabric Live 18.jpeg
File:Fabric Live 18.jpeg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Dear bot, THERE IS A FAIR USE RATIONALE.

--Dustek 22:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

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This bot is running rampant, its behaviour is scandalous. --Dustek 20:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Replaced Roni with Pendulum but if anybody wants to add images, please do so. Remember about left-right formating.

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Drill and Bass
Soon after album-based British techno producers like Aphex Twin and Squarepusher got their hands on drum'n'bass during the mid-'90s, they naturally twisted it to their own ends. The result was Drill'n'bass, a spastic form of breakbeat jungle that relied on powerful audio software and patient programming to warp old midtempo beats and breaks into a frenzied, experimental potpourri of low-attention-span electronic music. Beginning in mid-1995, three figures led the charge with pioneering EPs: Aphex Twin (Hangable Auto Bulb), Luke Vibert's Plug project (Plug 1), and Squarepusher (Conumber). The following year, drill'n'bass went overground with full-length releases by each of the above, most notably Plug's Drum'n'bass for Papa and Squarepusher's debut album Feed Me Weird Things. Soon the rush was on, and a group of artists emerged with immediately identifiable ties to drill'n'bass, including Animals on Wheels, Amon Tobin, Mung, and Plasmalamp. Drill'n'bass receded into the deep underground by 1998, an unsurprising event given the style's extreme nature.

-- All Music, thank you, http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:10985 Susume Eat

And?

Nonetheless, the drill and bass entry needs some references (as do all the subgenres entries).--Dustek 20:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Especially when it mentions that it's undanceable or that it discourages dancing. Even if I remember James messing things up on purpose, I wonder if he and Jenkinson really wanted people to stop dancing. In my opinion, drill and bass, as breakcore for example, might have become for some, but never intended to be undanceable. --Hugue Asselin (talk) 19:54, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Future Jungle
With the growth of Jungle music in Brazil, India and the Far East (being featured in big budget productions in Bollywood and Hengdian (China's Hollywood) and 'Future Jungle' tracks being released on Ram Recordings, Armageddon Beats, Hospital Records and Bristols Run Tingz Recordings and the return of UK Jungle Legends Bay B Kane, Nebula II and Gappa G I added a new Future Jungle section. Please add more info if you have any on the growth of this sub genre.

By the way the 1st x step dance was shown on 'pass the dutchy' by musical youth, it was not started in Russia or ten years ago as some claim. Check it out on YouTube. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.79.111.52 (talk) 01:10, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Pirate Radio influence
I think it would be worthwhile to add a hyper-link to 'Pirate Radio' so that the importance of the stations to drum & bass and whole scene are recognized. At the moment I can only see a link to an article on Kool FM. This link only partly tell Kools's story. I would recommend anyone reads Brian Belle-Fortune's book; All Crew Muss Big Up. This book contains a whole chapter on pirate radio's influence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.74.61.237 (talk) 21:01, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Rockstep, metalstep and punkstep
Never heard of them, found virtually no web references and their wiki entries are a joke, so they have been deleted. Completely obscure subgenres are unencyclopedic. --Dustek 19:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

There are actually a number of artists doing crossovers of extreme metal genres and hardcore techno genres, though not all of them have drum n bass influence (most seem to be using a breakcore format, but digital hardcore, speedcore, and gabber are also prevalent reference points). Currently the only closest genre name for some of this stuff is "cybergrind" or sometimes "electrogrind" or "digi-grind," all of which are pretty inadequate as they only refer to grindcore/techno crossovers I imagine this is simply because grindcore's focus on speed and harshness led some bands to experiment with warp speed drum machines and intense electronics before bands from other extreme rock genres did. Now there are enough bands with a purely death metal or black metal angle that it would perhaps be useful to have some umbrella term for it all, even if it's not regarded as a unified tradition. Although I've never heard the above names used for such crossovers.--Vlad the Impaler (talk) 02:01, 26 November 2009 (UTC) Well done in getting rid of the crap (if it even exists) why do rock fans feel the need to come on any other genre of music's pages and try to pretend theres some rock conection or that's its notifiable. They did it on reggae (where at one point it threatened to get as big as actual jamaican reggae on the page) thank goodness you clamped down on the crap on here! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.192.109 (talk) 20:53, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Metalstep is a real thing, but it's metal+dubstep or drum & bass, but I've never heard of Rockstep or Punkstep. Dark Lord Thomas Pie (talk) 12:38, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Irish dnb
I'm going to need some references on the origins of dnb being in Ireland, simultaneously. I don't think I've ever heard of an Irish origin.

--Dustek 08:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree. I always thought D&B was originated by Jamacians living in London. Netrat_msk (talk) 22:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Youtube - Shanghai Goldie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD2OTWHppzs

http://www.dnbforum.com/showthread.php?t=27412&page=2

--Dustek 22:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Its also known as "double-dip-step" or —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.81.157 (talk) 10:32, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Dnb abbreviations
I strongly opt for keeping all the variations of dnb/drum n bass in the beginning of the article. Drum & bass is abbreviated in various ways by various people. It is not only "drum and bass", but also "drum & bass", "dnb", "d&b" "drum n bass", "d n'b", etc. These variations may appear to minor but are remember that they are valid terms and used terms and Google and the wiki engine will link to this page IF these abbreviations appear on the page. --Dustek 22:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with you, but we all know this is Wikipedia and Wikipedia has decided that "drum 'n' bass" may only be called "Drum and Bass". Heil Wikipedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.85.174.54 (talk) 15:12, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Left right alignment
Common courtesy would have deleting editors fix the left right alignment of deleted images.

--Dustek 22:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Ghettotech
There was an edit in 'influenced by dnb' referring to dnb. I'd need to get some references showing that.

That said, I like ghettotech and mixed it before switching (again) to dnb. GT is a lot more influenced by Miami Bass than dnb (and Miami Bass influenced dnb... parallel evolution)

--Dustek (talk) 17:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

There was a song by Future Cut called 'Ghetto Style', and their style and that of Dillinja and Lemon D was sometimes referred to as 'Ghettotech' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Offbeatdnb (talk • contribs) 02:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Hipstep
I've been hearing the term bandied around but I'll need to see an article in the musical press or a major release to back up its genuine, nonfad, subgenre status. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dustek (talk • contribs) 21:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Techmospheric
Since this is "arguably not a recognised sub-genre", and there don't seem to be any sources, I've AfD'ed the article here. Comments would be welcome, especially if any sources can be found. - Zeibura (Talk) 00:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Zeibura
Thanks for your constant work on this article!

--Dustek (talk) 13:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

How is it actually made?
I would really like to start making my own D&B but have no idea how or what to use. How do artists like Clipz, Dillinja, Friction, Andy C, etc.. make their tunes? Do they use computer programs to make custom drum loops and bass lines, etc.. and what do you suggest I use to start making my music? Thanks an answer would be a huge help here!

...

Search on Google. --Dustek (talk) 08:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

This is a really weird place to ask...Have a look at to download the Amen break pack and start from their using a DAW you feel comfortable. FL Studio, Cubase and Logic are great starting places. Lemphek Offbeatdnb (talk) 01:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of history section
Who deleted the history section and why?

--Dustek (talk) 08:17, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Ripoff artist
Check out the 'history of drum and bass' on squidoo

www.squidoo.com/the-history-of-drum-and-bass

--Dustek (talk) 08:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose that Neurofunk be merged here as a non-notable minor sub-genre. Article is lacking in reliable sources and appears to be largely OR. -- neon white talk 21:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Good suggestion, but have a look at the talk page on Neurofunk to see why you won't succeed in making any changes to that article. Even the artists mentioned are afraid to edit it because the user Kridian will not allow any changes to be made - I work as a D&B journalist and he is touting his authorship and research in the article to get work. Try and make changes if you can, the entire D&B community has given up working on that article. 82.112.157.200 (talk) 12:41, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ownership issues can be dealt with after a decision has been made. The editor is welcome to contribute to the discussion. I actually think there are a whole lot of minor sub genres that have no sources and could be merged/redirect to the subgenres section here. In fact most of the ones in the template. Even with a brief description i dont think it would make this article too big. What do you think? -- neon white talk 16:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * When any article "is lacking in reliable sources and appears to be largely OR" it should be nominated for deleting, not merger. But that's not the case with Neurofunk. Netrat (talk) 18:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

It looks like ALL and EVERY D&B sub-genres including my favorite Liquid funk and Intelligent drum and bass are nominated for the merge with this article. All "discuss" links lead to the same section (this one). I strongly oppose merge. Each of D&B subgenres with its own article is established enough to be described in a separate article. It is true that most of these articles are still stubs, but it call for contributing, not merging. Merging all these articles into single Drum and bass article is the same as mering Progressive metal, Power metal and Black metal into single Metal music article. I believe someone without a good knowlenge of D&B did this nomination. Netrat (talk) 18:09, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * None of the sub-genres establishes any notability according to guides and most are original research with no sources. If you can proivide sources that assert notability then add them to the articles. Articles are merged based on the guidelines set out on WP:MERGE, the decisions are made based on the individual subjects and whether a single article is better reading than a lot of stubs, other articles have no relevance to the decision. -- neon white talk 21:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Stop. Let's get it clear. First you said you've only nominated Neurofunk for the merger. Was it you who added the merger templated to all other subgenres? If it was you, then why does your original post mention Neurofunk only? It looks you are not following the proper procedure.


 * Second, if there are no source in the article, it does not mean that the article is an original research. Google returns 411 000 pages for "liquid funk", 372 000 for Neurofunk, 95 600 for "intelligent drum'n'bass" etc. etc. etc. It's over nine thousands!, more like hundreds of thousands. These great numbers clearly show that terms mentioned are in wide use, uncrowning your accusations of non-notability and original research. There are hundreds of thousands pages mentioning these sub-genres, so they are notable. Terms are in wide use, so articles are no OR.


 * Third, let me be interested, how long have you been listening to d&b and what d&b records do you own or have listened to? Like, you know, people contributing to archeology or genetics articles are expected to have some professional training in the area, and I don't see why the similiar approach should not be applied to music articles. If you are not an expert, how can you judge?


 * If you feel these articles need references, you are free to look for them as well as to add them to the articles. Believe me, this would serve nicely for enlighting you about d&b music... Other editors are not adding sources because they probably see nothing debatable in those articles. Sorry if I'm being too rough.


 * Bottom line: strong oppose as hundreds of thousands Google hits clearly discredit notability and OR accusations. Netrat (talk) 09:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

It's time to close this discussion and remove merge templates from all the pages in question. Netrat (talk) 09:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There has been no valid points made yet, google hits are not a source, the article still lacks sources ans is OR. -- neon white talk 13:39, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) I have never said google hits are source. What I said was google hits proove that the term is in wide use. 2) What EXACT article lacks sources? There proposal was not merge all D&B subgenres into the main D&B article. 3) This is merger proposal, not deletion proposal, so the lack of sources or OR should not be discussed here (out of the topic). The proposal was to merge sub-genres as nominator thinks that they are not notable enough for separate articles. Netrat (talk) 14:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. I used to be very active 2 years ago, and put a lot of work in on this article - lots of negotiation and cooperation (I had the idea of taking it to FA status). Anyways, I noticed this merger notice and I oppose for one clear reason - this article is already way too long. I'm not at all concerned with the OR content or quality or notability of those other articles, I'm just concerned that this article is already considered far too long by the FA crowd, and merging a whole bunch of sub-styles into it will really muddle things up. Please find another solution. Themindset (talk) 20:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Strongly Oppose. Liquid Funk is sufficiently different enough to warrant its own article. There is no logical reason to merge into Drum and Bass. --JohnDelano (talk) 23:12, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose Very Notable —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.60.70 (talk) 14:50, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Oppose Merge Notable sub-genres. Portillo (talk) 02:27, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Oppose Merge Agree, notable sub-genres. Pelmeen10 (talk) 12:51, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Results
7 oppose, 0 support. Removed merge templates. Pelmeen10 (talk) 08:55, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Stylistic origins
Stylistic origins lists both breakbeat hardcore and breakbeat. What exactly is the difference? Are they separate genres? Or is one just a harder version of another? Is so, why list both? Second, Jazz is mentioned among stylistic origins. That's not true. Jazz-influnced D&B did not arrive until min-90's. Netrat_msk (talk) 22:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Not sure, the entire breakbeat hardcore seems to be original research and should probably be merged with Hardcore techno. There seem to be alot of non-notable sub sub genres and alternative terms with unsourced articles that could do with some work to clean them up. -- neon white talk 16:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The words hardcore and breakbeat get confusing as it's now 2008 and not 1992. Breatbeat hardcore was just known as "hardcore" in the early 1990s (in the UK at least) but since that word can also mean other things, the breakbeat was often added to the front to create separation. Doing so it not a recent thing.


 * Breakbeat hardcore is the top level style and the precursor to drum and bass/jungle (where one starts and one stops can likely be much debated). It was the main English rave style and then extremely big. IMO the article should not be merged into hardcore techno as it is different musically and culturally. The breakbeat hardcore article can likely be very good if fully researched. --Revolt (talk) 18:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If breakbeat hardcore is a top level genre, I'd suggest leaving breakbeat hardcore and removing breakbeat from "origins" field of the infobox. Breakbeat is not a genre (but rather a style of rhythm pattern) anyway. Netrat (talk) 06:35, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Legality of sampling?
Drum and bass is a style which borrows a lot of samples from other genres, and quite often I hear commercial releases from relatively unknown producers with recognizable samples from large titles (i'm specially referring to vocals).

What's the legal status of sampling in reality? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.81.137.198 (talk) 11:36, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Its a sampling sport, just like hip hop Portillo (talk) 02:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Sampling is completely illegal on all levels unless people ask permission from the royalty holder (eg. artist, record label, movie company). However, nothing will come of sampling unless the royalty holder decides to take legal action. Not that this makes it okay.

Lemphek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Offbeatdnb (talk • contribs) 02:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

drum and bass is not also considered "jungle"
"drum and bass" was and never is considered "jungle". The part where is says "drum and bass" is also know as "jungle" is way too vague and should be changed. It misleads people to think that "drum and bass" is "jungle" of which it never has been or will be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.231.105 (talk) 15:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

drum and bass is not also considered "jungle"
"drum and bass" was and never is considered "jungle". The part where is says "drum and bass" is also know as "jungle" is way too vague and should be changed. It misleads people to think that "drum and bass" is "jungle" of which it never has been or will be. Also, just because the United States doesn't consider "drum and bass" or "jungle" to be mainstream should not make it "underground". Music is international and these two types of music are much more popular in other countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.231.105 (talk) 15:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:EdRushOptical-Compound-sample.ogg
The image File:EdRushOptical-Compound-sample.ogg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --09:22, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * - file lake  shoe  13:50, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Not a great article
Using the bassline as the main melody with mid and treble as texture (which I don't believe is a defining character of drum and bass by the way) is certainly not unique to dnb. I could list off quite a few metal tunes that do just that, and I know that there are thousands of electronic tunes (not including dnb) that do it too. There are also some dnb tunes that don't. While I'm here, this whole article is a bit too "I love drum and bass, drum and bass is unique and a wonderful art form" kind of talk rather than a clinical encyclopaedic factual article like it should be.

A lot of the material seems to be written by avid dnb fans trying to convince someone to listen to it. The ridiculous ranting about sound quality at low frequencies is an example. The "These bass techniques are fully appreciated" part is just plain POV. Fully appreciated by who? This statement is purely subjective and doesn't belong here. The only reliable source for this would be a signed letter from every single dnb artist alive and dead stating that they designed their music to be played in a club or rave environment. Otherwise it is unverifiable.

I think dnb is ok, but this article made me cringe.

86.44.202.31 (talk) 22:00, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, you said that here already. Or maybe you're not the same person, but I'm guessing you are because you strawman exactly the same part of the article in exactly the same way, by paraphrasing it innaccurately into a claim of "sound quality at low frequencies", when the article does not talk about quality.  What it actually says is "high quality woofers and powerful amplifiers are required to fully reproduce the eponymous basslines at high volume levels".  As I already said last time: perhaps you can point me at the ipod headphones or small battery powered kitchen radio type of stereo equipment which have sufficiently powerful amps and large woofers to produce subs heavy enough and loud enough to physically rattle the chest?  No, because they can't, so what the article says is basically on point.  To produce that much subbass cleanly at high volume requires a big amp and woofers.  Pretty simple claim I think.


 * Likewise your rant about "signed letter from every single dnb artist alive and dead" - as before, making it sound ridiculous by strawmanning the article into something it doesnt say. What it actually says is "For the most part, drum and bass is ... designed to be heard in clubs", and it further goes on to qualify "There are however many albums specifically designed for personal listening".


 * On the other hand, I completely agree that the stuff in the intro paragraph claiming (1) the melody is in the bassline (2) high frequency elements ... simply provide texture (3) this is unique to dnb is, basically, a load of unsubstantiated (and unsubstantiatable) rubbish, and should be deleted.


 * As to the overall tone of the article being too fanboyish, and "trying to convince someone to listen to it", I don't really see it. Maybe there are shades of fan-ism coming through between the lines, since inevitably the article has mostly been developed by fans of dnb.  But for the most part I think it does a fairly ok job at maintaining a neutral POV.  I don't see any real claims of it being "better" than other forms of music, and I do see plenty of references to its debt to techno, jazz, dub, etc.  If you want to point out specific quotes which you think fail to walk this line properly I'd be happy to look at them.


 * Stevekeiretsu (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

MC Jonny Waines of the Leeds Massive
I have been a close follower of the drum and bass scene since 1991. I have never heard of MC Jonny Waines, I seriously doubt his influence on the scene and suspect that this reference is some type of hack. Can someone look into this and remove his name please. (Or correct me if I am wrong1)

DJ Ed B 24 Sept 2008 UK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.86.103 (talk) 10:26, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed, never heard of him, it reeks of piss take, removed.

LEAD: Underground???
"In the 2000s, drum and bass is still considered an underground musical style, but it has nevertheless had a significant influence on popular music and culture."
 * Yeah, underground. That is why there are dnb stages at 50,000 person raves. That is why even in a city as sleepy as San Diego there are dnb clubs on weekdays. I would think breakbeats would be more underground than dnb and break beats is pretty popular. I guess maybe in a hick town any type of EDM is 'underground', but not in normal society. I'm going to remove it since it is OR.75.80.159.248 (talk) 18:28, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Liquid funk as a "Fusion genre"
Why was Liquid funk moved to "Fusion genres" section of the infobox? Liquid funk is not a fusion genre, no more than Intelligent drum and bass is. I suggest moving Liquid funk back to Sub-genres section. Netrat (talk) 21:19, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I second that. 219.89.54.222 (talk) 11:25, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Done. Liquid Funk is a subgenre of Drum & Bass, period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.2.234 (talk) 14:35, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I asked for input
I asked a friend of mine who is a Drum and bass DJ to take a look at the article with respect to the problems listed above for the Good Article delisting. Unfortunately I don't see myself getting involved in this article currently, so I shall list here some of his comments instead: If someone can work with any of this that would be great. Hopefully the article won't be lacking its Good Article status for very long. __meco (talk) 20:08, 26 July 2009 (UTC).
 * The section on Jungle vs.Drum and Bass is a bit contentious since there is no ready answer, and what constitutes the difference depends very nuch on where you're located. The only certain thing is that in the beginning the genre was called jungle, and then some people began using the drum and bass name, while others didn't change the name. He says he doubts the name change had anything to do with the genre evolving. He proposes some pruning of the detailing of various opinions or perhaps even striking the whole discussion.
 * In the Samples section it's curious that The Winstons with the tune "Amen Brother" is not listed. The drum loop (Amen break) is possibly the source or origin of the genre itself, and even if it isn't it is at least the world's most utilized loop (not least in jungle).
 * He suggests removing some sections and paragrpahs that are tagged as unreferenced, especially because there is a lot of this which is impossible to document due to the genre still being relatively young.
 * There should be a few lines talking about the Congo Natty label (including the artist Congo Natty aka Rebel MC – they are briefly mentioned on the history of drum and bass page) and the Knowledge & Wisdom label (with the artist Terry T) and associated vocalists (Top Cat, Tenor Fly, Demolition Man, Million Dan ++) since they have been and still are significant factors for the genre evolving.
 * There is general agreement in the community on the importance of Congo Natty for the creation and development of the genre in its seminal stages, and Terry T was his studio man at that time. This should be mentioned. Source: http://www.junglex.ca/shownews5.php
 * Congo Natty's label was established in 1994, Source: http://www.discogs.com/label/Knowledge+&+Wisdom+Records
 * One item from the very beginning of jungle: Terry T used the name Noise Factory (with James Stephens) in 1991 when they were still making "rave" and "breakbeats", which evolved into jungle about 92. Source: http://www.discogs.com/artist/Noise+Factory
 * Both Congo Natty and Terry are still today making music and running labels, but they have a strong reggae vocal influence in their music.
 * Today, the plethora of subgenres is so great that it's virtually impossible to keep an overview

Better Definition
I thought I would head off the improvement of the definition again by stating this quality (albeight sic) definition by Cipher & Syntax (posted on Urban Dictionary).

Not mindless noise at all, as Burkey tries to claim. The basic premise is pattern based loops put over drum loops, but instead of your regular 4/4 um-tiss-um-tiss drums, it's set over the more flowing breakbeat format. The term drum and bass defines the predominent sounds you get: drums and bass are the sounds that are more predominent. It sticks wit a simple-but-effective motive towards melodies (or basslines is the case of dnb) but the complexity comes in the production of these sounds. The general rule for the sounds are bigger and badder is better, but depending on the style (there are also liquid and more ambient styles) this is also not the case. For those chart-dwellers who aren't quite sure of what this music is like, if you can refer back a few years when a few artists broke through (shy fx & t power, roni size, goldie and pendulum more recently) thats the kind of premise it follows, but that's only the surface of what is such a varied genre of music.to understand this music and to listen to the best, look for the artists in my examples. Andy C, DJ Hype, Mampi Swift, DJ Hazard, Friction, Drumsound and Bassline Smith, DJ Fresh, Roni Size, Goldie, DJ Marky, Zinc, Chase and Status, LTJ Bukem, Brockie, Ed Rush & Optical, Sub Focus, Loxy, Ink, Noisia to name but a few Drum and Bass djs/producers

rather nice and unbiased.

Offbeatdnb (talk) 05:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Drum and bass globally
Someone needs to remove pendulum from the top of the list in this section. At least put them behind Andy C - - people who value the music should understand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.189.73 (talk) 05:49, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

My god, I'm completely with you; their status at the top is a joke.

129.96.126.4 (talk) 03:26, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Anybody who criticises Pendulum (and I am amongst them) shouldn't ignore that Fresh and Pendulum were key players in the drum and bass sound from an earlier time than people realise. (Smartgenes (talk) 18:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC))

I think this article can benefit from changing the way refers to live drummers. Either that, or the live drummers involved with drums and bass really suck. 180 bmp isn't crippling fast, does anyone that wrote any of this article actually know any professional drummers? If I worked with a drummer who couldn't keep a steady tempo, of any type of beat, at 180 bpm, I'd fire him.

Also, this segment, is kind of ridiculous and should be changed somehow:

Live performances of drum and bass music on electric and acoustic instruments will often entail a drop in relative BPM (though not necessarily), unsurprising in light of the complexity of drum patterns and the high exertion required of a drummer.

Really? Lol, I'd be astonished if trying to make live music, drums and bass (or really, anything), and the drummer wasn't able to pull it off. I've heard of any of this music being polyrhythmic. Playing polyrhythms at high tempos would be difficult, but even that anyone that wants to be an actual drummer and musician should be able to do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.92.130.84 (talk) 16:03, 15 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Hey guys, the sky is blue, water is light blue, and grass is green. Please find a reliable source or bust. Tempmusic (talk) 14:01, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Physics Link
Linking the band Physics to the science physics doesn't make sense. (78.53.215.210 (talk) 21:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC))

Samples section and Media and Samples section - tidyup
I'd expect a section on "Samples" to talk about NOTABLE samples, the processing techniques used that contribute to the sound of the genre (beat-slicing, time-stretching, ring-mod, etc), and perhaps brief discussion of history or who made it famous.

IMHO the "Media and Samples" section does this pretty well and just needs a little bit of tidying.

The "Samples" subsection (why isn't this a section) just looks pretty random to me. Maybe I've missed the logic, but none of those examples are particularly familiar to me, a thirty-something in the UK who was buying and clubbing all the way through the 90s. So if there's some logic, could whoever created the list explain it a little, and if not, should we just delete it? It doesn't really add to the article. Furthermore, when talking about films it doesn't even mention THE defining example of "Bad Ass" despite the "Bad Ass" box and sample appearing next to it as an example of mixing and general feel of the genre. "Terrorist" appears elsewhere in the article with no mention of the piano sample, which is widely regarded as THE example of building tracks around piano lines (a Japan track in this case.) (Yeah, citation needed, I'll go and find one - pretty sure it appears in "The Rough Guide to Drum and Bass.")

Etc, etc. Whatever else, I suggest these two sections need to be merged at the very least. Thoughts? Once a few people have given ideas I'm happy to have a go at it, though be gentle, it'd be the first time I've edited something major on Wikipedia. Infojunkie23 (talk) 13:25, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Drum & Bass to Jungle
I would welcome further additions & information to the transfer of jungle to drum & bass by those who actually experienced drum and bass at the time. The music was different in 1994, especially in early 1994, and when I first heard tracks by artists such as Power by The Invisible Man I was quite blown away as jungle music had become quite stale. Not that he was necessarily the first to produce in a new style, but he actually used the term drum & bass on his own records in 1993, then in 1995. Other artists such as Remarc, Danny Breaks (Doc Scott), Dream Team were making tunes in the new style. Obviously this was related to what had went before - Goldie, 4 Hero, etc, though this was never called d&b. My changes are backed up in the History of Drum & Bass article abot the React album in 1994, and deeper commentary on the Reese bassline, tech step, etc. Hopefully only those who actually were involved at the time and so know the difference will add and change the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smartgenes (talk • contribs) 18:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC) Smartgenes (talk) 18:56, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Mainstream Popularity
I noticed that an IP has changed DnB's mainstream popularity to "Very high from the mid-1990's to the present day." Now, I love drum & bass as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't say that most people share this sentiment. Especially here in the US. I changed "very high" to varied." Also, it didn't have any citations, so more or less OR. I realize I don't have any direct citation for "Varied," however it is at least slightly more accurate for the time being (I think most people would agree with me, it had its moments in the 90's, then sort of waned for a bit, and is now becoming more popular again). But someone with more research, please make this section more accurate. I'll be seeing what I can dig up myself. MachinaLabs (talk) 14:06, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, this field should NOT contain statements like "very high" or "low" as this is all subjective and unverifiable, it should just say when and where it was popular in the mainstream. Have a look at some featured genre articles (e.g. Heavy metal music, punk rock) and see what they say. I've removed a lot of unverifiable stuff posted in this field by IPs and will continue to do so... - file lake  shoe  14:11, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Much nicer looking now. MachinaLabs (talk) 14:50, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Merging
I believe that the two pages should be merged and Jump-up should be a short extension of the page But the Jump-up page should stay and a link should be put somewhere in the Drum n Bass page (preferably just after the sub-heading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.198.3.87 (talk) 16:49, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Too many subgenres
I DJ dnb and have heard plenty of all the different styles. I believe the Wikipedia article is generally fairly good, but the intense categorisation that permeates a lot of dnb discussion is over-the-top and ambiguous. For example, what is the difference between Hardstep and Techstep? Why does 'skullstep' redirect to techstep?

My opinion is that many of these 'categories' are simply labels that are loosely applied in a relatively minor number of discussions on internet message boards and that most ravers, producers and DJs never use them. I've read interviews where producers express dislike for over-categorisation of their music too, e.g. Counterstrike simply describe their music as 'dnb'. An example of what I feel is more of a descriptive label and not a distinct subgenre is 'techno-dnb'. A lot of Raiden's tracks sound techno-influenced and he states that his sound is influenced by techno as do many dnb producers, but I don't see him touting Offkey (http://www.offkeymusic.eu/label/) as 'techno-dnb'. I haven't heard Marky or S.P.Y. talking about 'Sambass', and the stub article's reference to a couple of compilation album titles doesn't convince me it's a 'genre'.

And as for 'Chemical', seriously? Never heard of it, anywhere, ever.

If anyone agrees with me (you never know ;), I'd like to propose we try and trim down the number of subgenres to the more broadly accepted ones.

For example, a respected record outlet makes do with Jump Up, Liquid, Tech, Dancefloor: http://www.nu-urbanmusic.co.uk/shop/all_format.php?format=336 - how do they survive?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.208.217.136 (talk) 16:29, 2 January 2011 (UTC) Davedx (talk) 16:07, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. The problem with subgenres is that they change all the time. I remember being around during that Neurofunk vs. Techstep drama, the blaring reason behind which was just that it was 2 labels' names for the same sound at different times. This article was mostly written around 2005-6 when all these subgenre names could be found on Dogs On Acid or Ishkur's Guide to Electronic Music, neither of which are reliable sources. The articles about trancestep/electrostep/futurestep all got deleted because the forced memes on DoA to try to describe the commercial DnB sound of the late 00s didn't catch on, which is quite fair enough.. so feel free to nominate the unsourced subgenre articles for deletion. "Techno-dnb" sounds like a horrible misnomer to me, like what 16 year olds would call the music they play at Fabric... - file lake  shoe  07:27, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, been a while since I wrote that first criticism. I'm going to try and find time to go through these subgenres and make something coherent of them. I actually tend to think the Nu-Urban classification system works pretty well - do you really need more than those four? 213.154.235.68 (talk) 14:14, 15 June 2011 (UTC) (er, at work)

References to 'choppage' and 'breakage' as distinct styles are missing. If they can't have their own page, a note might be worthy. All Crews notes them, but doesn't describe (will double check later). maybe some other references will come.. --MilkMiruku (talk) 02:21, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Quoted part in History
There is a serious issue with the first quoted statement in the History section. It is seriously unclear as to where (especially the second part of said quote) it ends. I'm going to try and hunt down the person who provided the quotes (I actually just realized that I'm not sure if it has references). I'm just making a note of this just in case anybody else wants to help me out with this. Thanks. Lighthead (talk) 18:48, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually it is just the second part that goes off into infinity. And yes, it doesn't provide any reference. Lighthead (talk) 18:52, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

So it seems that the person who placed this "quote" pretty much doesn't have a Wikipedia account. Since it's a pretty good chunk of the article (it's impossible to know where it ends, really..), and also since its been there for such a long time, I'll give it about a week before I delete it, unless anybody has any objections (I'd also appreciate an administrator's advice on suggestions). I'm also going to decide on how much to trim off; I think I'll base that on how much is fact versus opinion (also by how much is written by the "unaccounted for" editor). Thanks. Lighthead (talk) 19:14, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * No need for the green light from an admin really... I'd suggest that you be bold and make the changes you suggest. I think the real priority should be that you find the original source for the quotation.  Without a source, the quotation should really be removed entirely. Papa November (talk) 21:09, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

So I can just go ahead and delete it now? I don't have to wait for any formal objections? Okay then, I'll do it. That's all I wanted to know. Lighthead (talk) 23:25, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Wow, it looks a lot cleaner! Now, it might even move up a grade... ha ha ha! Lighthead (talk) 00:09, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Much better :) Papa November (talk) 00:34, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Lighthead (talk) 01:25, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Jungle and Drum & Bass are NOT the same
I've listened to The Prodigy "Everybody to the Place" that is jungle song and then to DnB song by Rita Ora "Hot Right Now", and they're both WHOLE DIFFERENT. --82.139.5.13 (talk) 18:51, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

The Prodigy is not Jungle, and you are wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.222.27.175 (talk) 20:08, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

"Musicology"
I changed the section titled "Musicology" to Musical Features. As a musicologist, I can say with all due respect that this is an incorrect use of the term. The "musicology" of drum and bass would imply an overview of how it has been studied, the research published, the methodological issues involved in scholarly work done on the genre, etc etc. Musicology doesn't mean a breakdown of its harmonic, rhythmic, melodic, and other (structural, timbral, etc.) features. If someone has a better subtitle than Musical Features, by all means use it. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stracknasty (talk • contribs) 15:00, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree with this. The usual section heading I think is "characteristics" but this one goes a bit off topic talking about influences and history, and that huge wall of text about "the difference between jungle and dnb" - personally I think this article could do with some reorganising and pruning/splitting. - filelake shoe &#xF0F6;  15:10, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Characteristics is more usual, but this may be more accurate at the moment.--  SabreBD  (talk ) 17:41, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Merger proposal (2)
Currently we have two DnB specific articles that have serious referencing concerns (large swathes of unreferenced content), this is a WP:OR issue that could be easily addressed. We can whittle both down to a single concise version that adheres to sourced content if we: a) reduce unnecessarily verbose prose: b) excise problematic un-cited text. Semitransgenic talk. 11:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 *  Weak Support Only if you cut 'em down, because Drum and bass is a massive 77KB's.  Lighthead  þ 17:49, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support It is an obvious fork, with no rationale for having an article that is largely a history and another that is just history. I also agree that merged article should be edited down to simple prose and uncited material removed.--  SabreBD  (talk ) 07:20, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. This article with this revision was made a GA in 2006 when standards were a lot lower. The GA listed revision was also full of unsourced OR which it seems is there as a "compromise" over some fighting on the talk page (mainly about whether DnB and jungle are the same thing), time now to get rid of it, and then merging the two articles wouldn't be a problem. - filelake shoe  &#xF0F6;   08:30, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm gonna see if I can help you guys out with chopping down the article when I have time (I have to reappropriate my time). The article's massive still (and no I'm not talking about a drum and bass event), looks like you got your hands full. However, I encourage anyone and everyone to help. Just do it intelligently, as these two are doing. It needs heavy use of a scalpel.  Lighthead  þ 06:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Whittled it down to just over 49KB's. Hope that helps. The next project for your merger is taking in History article. I'll do some of it now.  Lighthead  þ 02:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Speedy Keep: I changed my mind, guys. Here are the reasons (they're also in my edit summaries at the history article). I. The history article is way too large. If you combined the history article with Drum and bass, it would make it the largest article in Wikipedia history for a subgenre. And my second reason is... I.(A) You'd have to knock out some key parts from the history article, and delete, what I consider, the better part of a great article. If that article isn't at Good Article status as of right now (U.S. bacchanalia time), then because of Wiki-politics. You're deleting history! Take a second read of that article, Semitransgenic.  Lighthead  þ 04:11, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I simply recommend either leaving the history section on this article proper intact with the tag and kiss from mom, or rewriting the history section, and leaving that section spare 'cause of history article.  Lighthead  þ 04:18, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Side note And by the way, that article is not redundant. There's a lot of content in that article that is not in this article, as well as content that can never be reduced to a simple section. It'd be a shame.  Lighthead  þ 04:28, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I sounded so hyper that day. Long story short (not that anybody's asking), I took Hydroxycut, and was definitely not at all low that day. Not at all... That's basically legal amphetamine. Never taking that again. But anyway, I am still wondering what the status is with this situation. Anyone not taking a wikibreak please let me know what's going on. Thanks.  Lighthead  þ 19:37, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Satellite Radio
Many, if not all, of the shows and stations listed here have nothing to do with drum and bass. This section is simply a list of radio shows that play EDM. Why on earth is it included on this page? I'd vote to remove the section entirely personally.Brakoholic (talk) 04:48, 7 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Strong Support Radio stations that vaguely play drum and bass are not really relevant to the scene, or even the music. I second that. Lighthead  þ 21:53, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

missing genre
can someone add something about reggaestep ? thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.194.156.135 (talk) 22:04, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Audio example
I have added an audio example as a drumfunk. However, I'm not absolutely sure if it is drumfunk or hardstep, the both genres are so close. Please check out it. Ftiercel (talk) 18:36, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

One of the worst articles of Wikipedia
Drum and bass music is what got me into music in general. I'm listening to it right now, and i love it. But this article is embarrassing. It needs a complete overhaul. There are some good parts that can be salvaged but there is so much that needs to be removed or altered it's difficult to know where to start. I have often contemplated an attempt at cleaning this thing up but it just seems too daunting of a task for my lone self. Please competent editors of Wikipedia, come to the rescue of this article! This music is too good to let this travesty go on any longer. yonnie (talk) 23:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Care to tell us what exactly is wrong with it rather than just ranting? Reading through it, there are a lot of weasel words all over the place which are no doubt a result of all those "jungle vs. dnb" disputes years ago... - filelakeshoe (t / c) 08:33, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Well for one, the subgenre section is a mess and littered with OR, synth and cruft, in fact the entire article is littered with it. I agree with an earlier comment I read that said that it reads like someone trying to convince you that DnB is the greatest genre of all time or something. The lead paragraph needs expansion with info pertaining to its history, its popularity and its impact on the musical arts particularly other genres of electronic music (especially bass music). yonnie (talk) 17:19, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Multitude of subgenres
I've been listening to Drum and Bass for a very long time now, but never looked at the wikipedia article until today. And I did learn a lot - for example that Netsky and Noisia both make music that's apparently called Italostep. I figured that if those two fit into the same category then there must be a whole ecosystem of D'n'B out there that I didn't explore yet, and promptly looked up sambass on youtube, which yielded a whopping 2.000 results, half of which refer to Sam Bass (artist). The wiki article of Sambass doesn't provide a whole lot more information either - it's a stub, doesn't "establish the importance of the subject", to put it in wikipedia terms, and reference #1 is broken (404). So.. Why exactly does Darkstep name a whole genre simply because it's moodier, why does the Sambass article even exist, why do Technoid and Skullstep name the same genre even though they link to different articles, since when does Noisia make Italostep and which professional decided that they are influenced by dubstep? Noisia started years before dubstep blew up in 2005. This article (or more specifically, this subsection) is a mess. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.118.245.15 (talk) 17:46, 16 September 2013 (UTC) yes: it is not too precise, does include some wrong subgenre and miss some other like reggaesep or skankin'Drum'n'bass; there is nearlt as many subgenre as artist

Drum and bass vs History of drum and bass
There is a banner that asks if we should merge Drum and bass and History of drum and bass and it should be discussed here so let's do it. I suggest not to merge not remove the banner. There is already a link for the both articles. It is recommended to split a too big article. I plan to remove the banner in a week. Ftiercel (talk) 04:42, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Drumstep
Can we get some more in-depth discussion on Drumstep, and possibly get a new article going in the future that is specifically about Drumstep?  მაLiphradicus    Epicusთე   20:09, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

AshK== DNB IS NOT 150-180bpm! ==

DNB is actually a very very slow genre. Much slower than most. Because of this there is a lot of space to add drums, but the kick on the first beat;every 8 beats, is the equivalent to the kick every beat in electro.. Electro dances are very energetic whilest dnb dances are done in slow motion. Of course both switch places for a short time during a climax.

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Influences
The first line of this section states that "The Amen Break was the main starting influence for Drum and Bass.". I don't think this is accurate at all. While it undoubtedly WAS an influence I don't think anyone could say it was "the main" influence.

Also, the reference given for this statement is just some random 20 second youtube video where the Amen break is played 3 times at different speeds.

82.27.104.216 (talk) 17:32, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Unsourced statements
There sure are a lot of unsourced statements in this article. Abductive (reasoning) 09:52, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree. It appears to be that the evolution of Drum and Bass is undocumented. Particularly, the Subgenres section (the most important one) needs more DnB scholars (and less artist promotion). -- Genoskill  (talk) 04:56, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Some statements can't even be verified. Abductive  (reasoning) 04:57, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Archives
There are two archive pages. Before going into a discussion about whether jungle is drum & bass, please read Archive 1, just about every argument for and against was exhausted there.

The second archive mostly chronicles the changes in this article in 2006.

160kbs of archive in total.

Big up! --Dustek 10:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Archive 1 - plenty of discussions on jungle vs dnb, merge & seperation discussions, discussions with authors.
 * Archive 2 - discussions mostly connected with editing in 2006, bringing the article up to good status.