Talk:Drum rudiment

Where the biological meaning of "rudiment"?--Ctac 12:57, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I suggest moving this article to "Rudiment (drums)" or some such. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:50, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Hybrids?
Is there really a point to having the humongous list of hybrid rudiments? I've been a percussionist for over 5 years, and have never even heard of the vast majority of these. Evan Seeds (talk) 23:47, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

TOTAL OVERHAUL
This page needs an overhaul, a total re-creation. In the next few days, I plan to add several new sections.

First, the title of the article and redirecting/link repair, so that someone can type in "rudimental drumming," "drum rudiments," "rudiment (drum)," etc. and still arrive at this page.

Second, MUSICAL EXAMPLES, MUSICAL NOTATION, PLEASE. SHOW us what they look like in notation so we know how to play them. This includes both lists of rudiments with musical examples and also transcriptions of famous rudimental drum solos. I have not had much experience scanning this kind of material and could use some help adding it. I plan to add at least the PAS and NARD rudiments in notation and the "Three Camps," "Downfall of Paris," and "Connecticut Halftime," but the number of appropriate musical examples to add is endless.

Third, a clearer definition of how rudiments are are used in different kinds of practice and performance and some HISTORY of how there came to be lists of rudiments in the first place. This is esoteric information which before now has only been published in academic journals and is not available to many people. The history needs to be filled in, because it's the biggest hole in people's knowledge of the rudiments. There are a whole lot of people walking around who can play them and have no clue where they came from.

Fourth, a BIBLIOGRAPHY of books, articles, web sites, and recordings where people can go to find this information. This will include more traditional drum method books and also new videos from people who play rudimental ideas on the drum set.

Ross Kimberlin 20:10, 11 March 2006 (UTC)Ross Kimberlin, 10 March 2006

"See Also" section
I also want to make sure that every percussion page is linked to every other percussion page. I have noticed this is lacking especially in the different percussion pages compared to many other related groups of articles on Wikipedia. The articles on drum set, snare drumming, drum rolls, rudiments, drum corps, and everything else should all be linked to one another via the blue-lettered "See Also" section at the bottom.

Brad Halls changes - March 26, 2006
Hello group. Agree with most of the comments above. Made the following changes:


 * Took another shot at the initial definition of "rudiment".
 * Broke the list of 40 up into the historic 13-13-14.
 * Created a new "Hybrid Rudiments" page and moved the list of hybrids there.
 * Added a "Books" section
 * Added "Notable Contributors" section
 * Added links to the PAS rudiments page, and rudimentaldrumming.com

Note that the "Books" and "Notable Contributors" sections are just a beginning; I don't pretent to have a complete list on either subject.

Other information that should be added, IMHO:


 * History
 * Musical images for each rudiment
 * Multimedia - Sound/Video files of each rudiment

Brad Halls 07:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)Brad Halls

You did not add a hybrid rudiments page

Added Images 3/30/2006
I got permission from P.A.S. to use the rudimental images from their website and posted all 40 of them here. Next on the list:


 * Add some examples that show how rudiments can be combined to make percussion music
 * Add sounds (midi)?
 * Add a section about the "grid"
 * Add a section about "check patterns"

Brad Halls 03:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC) Brad Halls

Thanks, Brad.
The page is already 100% better. Having the notes on there makes all the difference in the world. It finally looks respectable and will give people one more easy place to find the rudiments online. I've been dragging behind on finishing a brief history of them, but I'll wrap it up soon. I believe it should go right before the list of books/sources, and I think I'll also make a link to the history as a separate article.

Thanks again, it never occurred to me to contact PAS for permission to use their images and I would have had technical problems doing so anyway. I couldn't have done it without everybody else here pitching in. Thank God with a bazillion people looking at this site nobody has to do it alone.

Ross K.

Adding written drum notes, video & midi of rudiments
Hi Ross, You can check out this site with the list all 40 rudiments. They have a vid presentation of how the rudiments are played, with read & written notes & midi file.

You may have to ask their permission I suppose.

http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/drumrudiments/Drumrudiments.html

God bless!

complete rewrite
There's a discussion open about moving a full rewrite of this article, combining all smaller rudiments, into mainspace going on now at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Percussion -- Evan ¤  Seeds  04:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

"Rudimental"
Well, i almost lied to you, and told you "rudimental" isn't a word. The 45+ year-old Second International has it, but just says "rudimentary" in defining it. We've got
 * 25 from en.wikipedia.org for Rudimental -drum -percussion.

but
 * 47 from en.wikipedia.org for Rudimental drum OR percussion.

You've got a flamboyantly technical word here, and you have to explain it before using it. Everyone knows what rudiments are, but that does not appear to inform one about "rudimental", especially in light of the language i just removed to talk from a bio of Lenny Hart:
 * ... was a national and world rudimental drummer,

Which seems to say he was world-famous for his beginner-level drumming. I can be an annoying prig about language, but for once there's nothing going on here except that i am truly left clueless, and this is not an encyclopedia (nor even an article) just for musicians. --Jerzy•t 06:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Article doesn't define the topic
There's obviously a lot of great information here, but the article begins with "A rudiment is one of a set of basic patterns used in rudimental drumming" and never defines "rudimental drumming". Can somebody define "rudimental drumming", hopefully in a non-circular way? :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.16.40.113 (talk) 23:56, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Still a problem five years on: what actually is a "rudiment"? — This, that and the other (talk) 05:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Bass drum rudiments?
Why does the page say "there have been efforts to standardize bass drum rudiments" ? Most of what I've seen these rudiments used for are for the Snare drum. Should this be changed back to snare drum? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.198.113.130 (talk) 01:23, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Some notation graphics wrong
For example, the Ratamacue cannot be composed of sixteenth note triplets, they are eighth triplets. The drag at the beginning is the fastest part, not the triplet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Umarekawaru (talk • contribs) 23:50, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Little tidbit in wrong place
I found this under the See Also section:

it should be noted that egg beaters are commonly written as fivetuplets however, the subdivision of egg beaters is an 8th note followed by a 16th note and is actually 3 sectuplet notes followed by 2 32nd notes. -Brad Herwy

I don't know where it should go or if it should be thrown out, but it certainly didn't belong there. 131.191.115.197 (talk) 07:02, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Notation Missing
There is notation for every listed rudiment except the single stroke roll. Is there some reason for the omission?

Also, it would be nice to indicate on the chart which were the 13 original rudiments designated by National Association of Rudimental Drummers; and which were the 26 Standard American Drum Rudiments -- probably could be done with asterisks and a couple of footnotes.

I have added some words and references to the first paragraph concerning the definition of "rudimental drumming", which apparently people have been seeking for this article for several years. Feel free to tweak it as needed; at least there is now something there, where before there was nothing.74.95.43.249 (talk) 00:37, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

The definitions of "rolls" are wrong.
A roll does not require any accented stroke. If I play a 7-stroke roll sans accent, have I not played a roll? "llrrllR" is a roll, but llrrllr" is not?

That's silly, and very disappointing error to find on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.166.208.225 (talk) 01:55, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

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Massive expansion
In the past few months I've gone on a binge for this article adding roughly 48 of the 58 currently cited references (as of Sept. 2019) to lend some verifiable credibility what I gather from this talk page to have been a pretty haphazardly put together article by a number of different editors. No offense to any previous contributor, but there is a reason that the article was tagged with "citation needed" in many places when I found it. I also added many sections to the history including 8 different countries, because as we all should know, rudiments have a varied and non-homogenous past. If you'd like to discuss anything about this page with me please feel free. I'm just trying to make it accurate, well-cited, and comprehensive for what is actually a gigantic topic spanning 8 centuries and most of the Occidental Euro-centric world. Thanks fellow rudimenters! Ryukin (talk) 19:06, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi -- wow, thanks for doing so much work on this article!  It's clear you have a lot of passion and knowledge around drumming and its history.  I've come to this article because I'm a beginner drummer myself and learning rudiments.  I just took a look at the article with fresh eyes, and did some copy editing.  But I also think there's a lot more to be done to tighten it up.  These are my main thoughts:
 * I think the history section is impressive and exhaustive, but there may be details in there that can be removed in the name of making it easier to learn from the article. In other words, I think there's a balance between being complete and being concise.
 * I looked through some of your citations, which link to websites that Wikipedia policy would probably not consider reliable sources, such as blogs about drumming (like this source), or also to pages that seem not to contain the information that is cited from them (like this source).
 * The citations themselves could use some formatting, so that they're more than just a link to a website. It's better to contain the author's name, date, etc.
 * In the "American" section, I think the section contains a lot of information that might belong better in a "Present day" section. Something to consider.
 * So hearing all this, are you interested in working together to tighten up the article? One way to do it is that I could make a series of larger edits myself and you could see if they feel right to you.  Let me know! -- Cloud atlas (talk) 23:01, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Sure, I'd be willing to collaborate. In the scheme of Wikipedia I don't think this article is actually very long. There may be a way to word things such they they are more concise or focused, but I think leaving as much content as possible would be beneficial. I am not a master of citation code. I, quite honestly, just let other more accomplished editors use automated citation link fixing bots and code on the article I edit or create. A major shortcoming to be sure. I'm not sure who made that citation about basle drumming but yeah its obviously garbage. Robin Engelmann on the other hand is/was a member of the percussive arts society hall of fame, a well-respected proffesional percussionist, and a teacher at the Eastman School of Music. His articles, though in blog form, are extremely well researched and written from the most knowledgable of positions. He probably deserves a wikipedia article if he doesn't already have one. I'm not sure if that makes it ok to cite exactly, but he isn't a random blogger, in case that matters. But again, yes I'm open to trying to organize, tighten or otherwise improve. Ryukin (talk) 23:13, 21 September 2019 (UTC)