Talk:Dub music/Archive 1

Dub music/Dub reggae merged
It appears as though the two topics have been merged (Dub reggae redirects to Dub music), so I'm going to "comment out" the discussion of merging the two. I'll leave it in the HTML for the Talk page, though, just in case I'm mistaken or we need to revive the discussion. Oed 03:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Animal sounds, babys crying?
The music sometimes features processed sound effects and other noises, such as animal sounds, babies crying, and producers shouting instructions at the musicians.

I've listened to quite a lot of dub, but never heard any other those sounds... should be removed

Then you probably haven't heard some of the numerous tracks that feature these effects. Joe Gibbs, for one, has used babies crying, cars honking, etc. And the part about producers and muscicans shouting to each other? I've heard that on numerous recordings, including King Tubby, Augustus Pablo and several others. This part should surely not be deleted. I edited this article so that King Tubby was mentioned before Lee Perry, and mentioned his status as being recognized as the inventor of dub. --Twisturbed Tachyon 09:11, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Lee Perry is fond of making these sounds himself, for example on Experryments at the grass roots of dub. I wouldnt consider it particularily genre defining though. Htaccess 02:02, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Whereas it is technically correct that some dubs have included those particular sounds, might it not be more broadly correct to say The music sometimes features non instrumental sounds and heavily processed sound effects. Superfami

A bit late to say it, but whoever wrote that may well have been thinking of the dub side of Culture's I'm Not Ashamed single. BTLizard 12:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Serbians
Black Ark Crew may not be notable by themselves; their article is up for deletion. But their existence should probably be noted here as an example of the spread of this music; if the link turns red, I'll delink. JCScaliger 22:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Herman Chin
I had thought it was Clive Chin who actually did the pioneering production work with Errol T.? Wwwhatsup 04:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Long Beach Dub All Stars/Shortbus
Definitely Dub --146.151.17.90 07:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Dub artists
I have removed red and external links from the section. Please create an article for the artist/group/band first, and then add it to the list, that way it is easier to weed out unnotable/inappopriate items. Secondly, I think we should only include artists whose main genre is dub, not every band who are said to be dub-influenced. Any comments are welcome. #29(talk) 10:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, a lot of bands are influenced by dub, I think that's important - but, now that Captown is mentioned, why not Primal Scream? They've made many dub numbers, and a purely dub record, so I think they fit here, as a more well known name in the biz.

King Tubby was the inventor of Dub
Dub music was originally an accidental creation. It started with Ruddy Redwood's Treasure Isle Sound System that Osbourne Ruddock aka King Tubby operated. Ruddy was given a disc that, through oversight, had no vocal track. Being a popular tune, Rudduck nonetheless played it anyway. The crowd went crazy. Never to far from the latest trends, other producers took note as Jamaica in 1968 got itself caught up in an instrumental frenzy. Tubby was an electronics genius and thought that more could be done to these instrumental "versions". So he introduced self-built primitive echo and reverb units to his own Home Town Hi Fi Sound System, adding the extra-spacial dimension that became the the identifying hallmark of Dub. He even went further by adding his own home built graphic equalizer that enabled him to to take out various parts and accentuate others in a track. It also enabled him to create the signature low end bass sound prevalent in all dub music today. Eventually, with the popularity of dub in the 70's, Tubby became the most sought out engineer in Jamaica.

Source: BBC 2002 article from the sleeve of the CD compilation: King Tubby 100% Dub


 * I'd just like to big up whoever listed "Surrounded By the Dreads at the National Arena" as an, if not the, epochal dub album. That's the way I remember it. As I understood it at the time it was also this show, at which Tubby pioneeringly performed with a multitrack mixing desk live, that made his name in Jamaica.  Wwwhatsup 00:59, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

No...
Dub music is not quite always associated with reggae music.

Dub often (very) refers to electronica/ trip hop. Things totally unassociated with reggae music.

John 05:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Totally false, dub is reggae... big controversy ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alois.cochard (talk • contribs) 08:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Used widely
From the article: "Today, the word 'dub' is used widely to describe the re-formatting of music..." Is this supposed to mean that many people use the word this way? If so, then maybe "widely used" is better. If it's supposed be in contrast to its more narrow original usage, it should read "used broadly". I'm not sure what was intended here.--Theodore Kloba (talk) 17:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Asian Dub Foundation?
Why is Asian Dub Foundation not noted? They are Dub... --86.89.24.41 15:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)MemoriesOnAcid

Why not? Simple answer -- they are not even remotely a footnote in the history of reggae or dub. I am not saying they are a bad group per se ( surely a subjective conjecture anyway) -- but they are not in any way significant in the history of dub or reggae. Period. They should however, certainly get kudos and heads up in any discussion page related to the history of Asian popular music in the late 20th C UK —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rutherfordlad (talk • contribs) 12:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

General Cleanup and Grammar
The grammar, punctuation, and topical relevance of much of this article is poor. I've made various changes to grammatical issues, but would like to see if anyone is willing to help clean up the larger issues, such as the Influence of Dub on Punk and Rock Music section, in which the paragraph beginning "Since the beginning of rastafarian dub music, there have been gang issues ..." seems to serve no current purpose, or needs to be completely rewritten. "Peace came when.."; I mean, come on. A lot of this sounds like it was translated by Babelfish. There have to be some people out there who are seriously knowledgeable and want to do more with this article than list bands and give their opinion.--Genobeeno (talk) 23:31, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

The section Impact on Remixing that begins "'Dubbing' became popular in the late 1960s..." is completely redundant and will be removed.--Genobeeno (talk) 23:37, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Use of Slang
Use of slang terminology seems like it doesn't fit with Wikipedia conventions, for example in the use of "riddim" although it could be said that this is a proper noun due to its widespread usage in the genre. Still, it's not widely accepted English and should be either put in quotations or excised.--Genobeeno (talk) 23:43, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Paragraphs not conforming to headers
The paragraph under Influence of Dub on Punk and Rock Music beginning "Traditional dub has survived..." seems like it should obviously be moved to the 21st Century Dub in the Roots Tradition section. Is there a reason this would be in the section on influences on Punk and Rock music? Also, the links to non existing articles shoudl be removed from this paragraph.--Genobeeno (talk) 16:53, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

History dating convention
Again, obviously, paragraphs referencing the 1970s probably shouldn't be in the paragraph titled Late 1960s: "versions", experiments with studio mixing, right? I propose an additional subheading for the 1970s. Also, the dating convention should have internal consistency. For example, it should either be 1960s: blah blah blah, or Blah blah blah (1960s), etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Genobeeno (talk • contribs) 16:59, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Cleaning up poor grammar in The term, Characteristics, and Recent history sections.
I'm not sure why anyone would revert to the poor grammar used in the earlier version of this article, but I'm going to do my best to clean it up. Overall, this article reads like a fifth grade book report, so, hey, if anyone has meaningful input, please, bring it to the table. Otherwise, please, don't revert reasonable corrections to earlier versions with incorrect grammar and poor spelling.

In the Characteristics section, paragraph one, the phrase "part vocal and extra percussion" is certainly a fragment and should be changed. Unless we can define "part vocal" in relation to "extra percussion", it makes no sense. Also, "echo" is linked to echo (phenomenon) where it should be linked to delay (audio effect. They're two totally different things. Unless someone can show me an instance of producers using natural echo a majority of the time, I'm linking to the audio effect.

The sentence beginning "As opposed to hip hop music terminology..." is poorly written. Elsewhere? Where? "In reggae music, the person with the microphone is called the DJ"? You could have fooled me, because they are called singers for other kinds of reggae. Comparing the terminology for DJ/selector to hip hop is not inclusive of other genres, and narrows the comparison unnecessarily.

In the Recent history section, we have various ridiculous statements, such as calling Scientist the "rastafarian heavyweight champion of Jamaican dub". There is no such thing. Using this kind of hyperbole might be fine in a 'zine, or when talking to one's friends, but it's a totally ridiculous claim for an encyclopedia article. I'm removing these types of statements throughout the article unless anyone can find me a reason that they need to be kept. Genobeeno (talk) 17:06, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Hm. It seems that there is quite a commitment to poor grammar in this article as people keep reverting poorly written sections. We're going to have to undo that unless a written reason justifying their inclusion is given.--Genobeeno (talk) 00:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC).

Hip-Hop
Kool Herc, largely considered to be the creator(or major early pioneer) of hip-hop music and culture, was a Jamacian DJ who brought his expreience in the Jamacian Dub scene to the bronx. sources for this information are numerous. (Drn8 (talk) 13:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC))


 * It would seem this is covered, in a general way, in the 'Influence of dub on popular, electronic, and dance music' section, but without references. If you have some particular source(s) you could consider adding them as refs. Wwwhatsup (talk) 22:47, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * One guy, who may have been relevant to hip-hop at one time but has long since been overshadowed by several decades of other extremely influential artists with much more hefty bodies of work, does not justify saying that hip-hop is derivative of dub. Kool Herc may be derivative of dub, but hip-hop can hardly be called derivative of Kool Herc.  Sources need to be found not only for Kool Herc specifically, but also to support the supposed derivative relationship between hip-hop as a whole and dub as a whole. EAE (Holla!) 16:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

recent history: 00's
I believe the newer french scene should be included, which has been very active with bands like high tone & Kaly live dub. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.57.103.19 (talk) 07:28, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

offensive

Dub Invasion festival 2011
Right now there's a fairly significant dub-related event going on on the USA East Coast. Doesn't seem quite notable enough for the article, but it may be -in retrospect. Wwwhatsup (talk) 00:02, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Psydub
Psydub is another derivate form of dub, it`s a mix of psychedelic downbeat music und dub, it is mostly common in the goatrancesubculture and there it is played in ambientrooms mostly.

ektoplazm.com is a site which is also a free common use site for psydub. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.23.54.149 (talk) 13:44, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Dub, electronic music and the dubstep movement section
The recent additions to the "Dub, electronic music and the dubstep movement" section describing the processes used in making dubstep are almost totally irrelevant to this article, and belong in the (gasp) dubstep article. Seriously, the sooner dub fans and producers who have a limited grasp of the written language stop participating in this article, the better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Genobeeno (talk • contribs) 20:07, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

As an electronic music dj, I have a hard time finding any associations whatsoever between dubstep and dub or jungle, other than the use of them in the name. ("step" = jungle) Dubstep isn't really related in any major way to what makes jungle jungle, nor to what makes dub dub. It was just a cool sounding name for an emerging genre of downtempo edm, basically. Not that dubstep is bad, it's just mislabeled. A better approach might be to retitle the section "The use of the word "Dub" in electronic music sub-classification," then mention that the word "Dub" crops up in the moniker of many different sub-genres of electronic music, including Dub House, Ambient Dub, Techno Dub, and Dubstep, and usually references similarities in tempo, bass line, and sample material with Traditional Dub. Then reference Ishkur's Electronic Music Guide over on techno.org as the source. http://techno.org/electronic-music-guide/ Beej67 (talk) 14:14, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the link between "Classic" Dub and Jungle and/or Dubstep is not anywhere near as direct as this section suggests; I'd go so far as to suggest that this section is either original research or just plain wrong. I also agree about the sections' relevance, it at least needs major work and as it stands is a candidate for deletion.

30 hertz (talk) 20:05, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

The whole section on Dubstep should be removed. There isn't a section on the much more vital 'dub techno' genre, which has existed for 20 something years and will continue to be vital long after Dubstep is gone. Not only that but the dub techno genre is TRULY inspired by and references to Dub techniques and musicians, often featuring many of the greats as guests, inspiration, or remixes. So pure and simple, if REAL ELECTRONIC DUB MUSIC IS NOT REPRESENTED IN A WIKI ABOUT 'DUB', then Dubstep should be NOWHERE NEAR this wiki page and all the information should soley reside on the dubstep wiki entry. I mean give me a break, Rhythm and Sound nor Basic Channel are mentioned, but dubstep tips it's hat to itself? You gotta be KIDDING me. 96.28.101.236 (talk) 09:16, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes and yes. Seconded. Dubstep is not dub. And even though these two are often confused, it doesn't make it any more correct. It's gotta go. I also agree that both Rhythm and Sound and Basic Channel could, or perhaps even should be mentioned as very good notable examples of this genre. JoaCHIP (talk) 09:26, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Section: Modern Echoes of Dub
I question the relevance of this section, it reads like promotional material for the album release mentioned and as such falls under the criteria of WP:SPAM. Major re-editing or deletion required.

30 hertz (talk) 13:17, 12 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I second the above comments. The final paragraph of this section neatly summarises dub's influences on pop; the bulk of the section could be (a) summarised in a single sentence and appended to that para, and (b) moved to the article on the artist Sun Araw.  yoyo (talk) 23:50, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I also support this....the section mentions Justin Beiber song having a dub feel to it and I checked it on youtube. If anything it's 100% dub step and has not a bit of classic dub sound to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.252.182.175 (talk) 23:59, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 21 October 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Move. Participants have established that this form is standard on Wikipedia and used in sources. Cúchullain t/ c 14:30, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Dub (music) → Dub music – This is the standard title format for music genre articles (see e.g. pop music or rock music); the current format instead indicates that dub is a feature of music, such as a specific technique or sound (see e.g. screaming (music) or programming (music)). -- MA SHAUN IX 14:15, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per nom's sound analysis. --Cavarrone 16:58, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose because it's always referred to simply as 'dub', not 'dub music'. --Michig (talk) 20:33, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment generally just called dub, dub reggae even, will rarely hear the expression 'dub music' in fan discourse, but, some notable writing on the subject does use the term throughout, see Dub: Soundscapes and Shattered Songs in Jamaican Reggae for example. Semitransgenic  talk. 22:19, 21 October 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

I thought the idea was to establish consensus? It certainly wasn't established here. --Michig (talk) 18:04, 30 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Two editors explicitly supported the move, with sound arguments, and a third offered evidence that the proposed title is in use in sources, which countered the one opposing argument. Consensus was established.--Cúchullain t/ c 18:43, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Only four editors contributed, two of which state that 'dub music' is not the common name for the topic. --Michig (talk) 19:31, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * it doesn't look like a strong consensus, which is required to move a long standing article with a stable title, I commented because ultimately either would work, both are used. Technically, dub is also a feature of the music, that's the origin of the style, a dub version of a recorded work, so dub (music) is not too far of the mark. Semitransgenic  talk. 21:07, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll try to explain my reasoning a bit more. Move requests aren't votes; arguments, evidence and policy are what carry weight. I found the consensus here sufficient to move the article, especially considering that the supporters presented compelling arguments and the only opposing argument was effectively countered. The proposed title fits WP:AT policy: natural disambiguation is generally preferable to a title with a parentheses where available, even if it's less common, and the evidence presented here shows that "dub music" is in use in the sources. It was not a particularly strong local consensus, but a rough consensus supported by relevant policy is enough. If I thought leaving the discussion going longer could have found a different result I might have relisted, but I just don't see that happening.--Cúchullain t/ c 16:08, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Etymology
In the main article "dub" is identified as an abbreviation of "double" which, of course, it is not. Since this is my first visit (wanted to see if this weekend's 10th. anniversary party at Elbo Room was mentioned) I don't know how/where to insert the fact that "dub" is an abbreviation for "dubbing", as in "overdubbing"

But what you're saying is that "dub" is derived from "dub" - not helpful. The "dub" in "overdubbing" is, indeed, derived from "double" and the "dub" in "dub music" isn't really a new word so much as a re-use of that word in a new context.67.180.148.17 (talk) 17:27, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Jamaican Sound System
This section is very poorly written, confusing and redundant. Could someone please rewrite it (paying attention to the same info given elsewhere in the page)? 67.180.148.17 (talk) 17:31, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Name/Duppy
This touted connection between "dub" and "duppy" seems very speculative, especially as in decades of interest in Jamaican music, I don't think I've ever seen that connection made explicit on a record either audibly or in song or album titles. It's notable that neither the Lee Perry quote nor the title of Burning Spear's "Garvey's Ghost" album use the word duppy - they use the word ghost. I can completely see why the Burning Spear album is called Garvey's Ghost - both from the POV of the original vocal album being a tribute to Garvey and to Spear's vocals drifting in and out of the mix in the dub version - but I think John Corbett, whoever he is, is trying WAY too hard when the term so obviously derives from copying a recording onto another tape or an acetate - which was called a dub plate in Jamaica several years before the kind of creative mixing with echo etc. that we now think of as dub appeared. Steve Barrow's sleeve notes to the album "Dub Gone Crazy" (a compilation of dub mixes by dub pioneer King Tubby) contain a lengthy quote from producer Bunny Lee on the subject which makes clear that the word dub was being used in this context in Jamaica by the late 1960s at least. While there may be instances I'm unaware of where there the similarity of the two words is referenced in a record, given the history of the use of "dub" in Jamaican studio contexts it seems vanishingly unlikely that these wouldn't be making the connection AFTER the word dub was already being used for such mixes. Freewheeling frankie (talk) 13:15, 27 March 2020 (UTC)