Talk:Dublin 4

Headline text
Bold textThe examples of D4-speak are poor. "Bored Gosh" or "Bored Gawsh" is a pretty good approximation of the pronunciation of Bord G&aacute;is, and "unpussed" or "unpust" is similarly good for An Post.


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Moreover, the point usually made about D4 is that it is the home of the chattering classes, the affluent liberal pseudo-intellectuals who want to force divorce, abortion and atheism on the good bungalow building folk of Connemara.

The strangled speech of south Dublin (feud for food, core for car, etc, well documented in the backpages of the Turbine, IIRC) belongs mostly further south, in the vast residential wastelands of Foxrock, Blackrock, Stillorgan, Dundrum and so on. BrendanH 10:20, May 7, 2004 (UTC)


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UCD isn't located in Dublin 4, but Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, the border is just before Belfield Bridge on the Stillorgan Dual Carriageway which is where Dublin 4 and the Dublin City Council district ends and Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown begins. I also agree with the point on accents already posted, it is not nessesarly a Dublin 4-only thing, but or upper-middle-class southsiders in general, from locations more southern than Dublin 4.


 * I beg to differ - UCD may 'administratively' be in Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, but the postal address is most definitely UCD, Belfield, Dublin 4. Jlang

Dublin postal districts have nothing to do with the administrative divisions AFAIK. UCD is definately D4, you can check their website; I don't know if it is in DL-Rathdown or not; it is possible that you cross back into Dublin city when you go through the entrance. The Montrose hotel is still D4 but almost certainly in DL-Rathdown, however. Blorg 16:42, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ucd is clearly in D14, make no bones about it. Think about it like, Clonskeagh road borders one side, Fosters Avenue another side, then Roebuck Road too. All of these are in D14.

Come on... UCD not in Dublin 4??? I go to the university so i'm perfectly aware of the monumental 'crossing of the void' from out of D4, when taking the 'nomber 10' to college. So technically you may be right... or i suppose technically you may be wrong - as the postal address does appear to be Dublin 4...

So let's just leave the technicalities aside. Culturally, socially, economically, (some might say 'annoyingly') - everything about the university smacks of D4. It wafts through the air like a bad vending-machine cologne, emanating odourously from herds of cotton track-suit clad blondes, whose faces hide under a dense veil of tan-in and whose make-up would make an aging ##### blush.


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 * According to UCD's home page, at the bottom of the page, it's Dublin 4. Discussion over. 213.94.243.213 14:32, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed - the address on the home page of UCD should be definitive. Autarch 12:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * In complete disagreement with this. An Post are the ones who define the boundaries of the postal districts, not UCD. According to An Post, UCD is not in D4. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.235.122 (talk) 15:08, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

IPA please
Could someone please convert the examples to IPA? It's impossible to tell exactly what sounds they are with these approximate spellings. —Keenan Pepper 07:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

POV

 * While "D4" is a short-hand in some Irish circles for liberal-minded progressives <- debatable ,
 * residents of the post-code are also seen as an Irish pastiche of the British 'stiff upper lip' type
 * but are more akin to moneyed American suburbanites of the OC persuasio

The POV Runs from start to finish, this is just worst of it. (Gnevin 23:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC))

Dublin 4 is a mentality
It may be a postal area, but in common usage a mentality is being referred to. The Ross O Carroll Kelly part is one aspect, but there is also the West Brit and culturally English side. For many if not most Irish outside Dublin, D4 is synonymous with West Brit.El Gringo 21:07, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed... In fact it's nearly more an accent than anything else. I'm from Bray, and yet people would still term me D4 - merely because I speak with a sort of middle-class accent, and in spite of the fact that I'm a passionate Gaeilgeoir who is as un-West-Brit as they come, and who lives 8 miles outside the realms of the postcode. Perhaps a discussion of the different types of D4-head would be useful... the West Brit, the person with the accent, the jock, the person who actually lives there. Also, some mention of the term "D4-head"!NaLaochra 02:51, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Anybody care to clarify the following... ROCK seems to hail from Foxrock which is D18 not D4, and his overall mindset would be quite different from the one being discussed here as typical of D4... What is the correct resolution to this? elpincha 13:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a lazy a sloppy shorthand for "South Dublin" - which includes Tallaght, an area that is supposed to be the diametric opposite of Dublin 4. Cliches aren't always accurate. Autarch (talk) 19:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

True D4 honest

however it is common knowledge that these west brits constantly want to portray themselves as somehow Better than the rest of us, particularly people of the D24 area, but we can all rest assuradly in the knowledge that they secretly are jealous of the fact that elsewhere in dublin we have a culture and dont need to keep up with the latest episode of the OC to give us our lastest life direction and alone fashion tips. By the way do any of these west brits ever actually have some fun, it seems your obsessive nature does not allow you to relax enjoy a few drinks with the rest of us, imagine one seen with a north-sider? that would be like so whatever. I suppose you can alway fall back on your drug abuse then complain at how barbaric life is in tallaght, but whats new eh?

so if you read this and happen to be from a so called bastion a liberal ideas, like blackrock or one other of this upper class lot, ask yourself why do most people take a real dislike to you. its obvious that you would use a jealousy arguement, but its something about your personalities as a whole, sure i might as well tell you people i know how you dont like to be kept waiting, particularly while shopping in Dunnes, couldn't be cought shopping there now could you? its because in general people just dont like ponces, and fascists.

Ahwell, cherio darling, i have to be at annebells soon, but you just dont know i could pop into lillies later for a glass of white wine and a chat.
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Could someone please teach this person basic spelling and basic grammar!

Could someone XPLAIN to the above gentleman that the gramer of 'that person' is totallly irevelennnt to the point he is making?

Whereas I have discovered some quite down to earth, friendly, and even 'sound' affluent people on my travels, I most certainly agree that there is among some members of the Dublin bourgeoise a superiority complex, coupled with the fact that despite their expensive education they seem quite incapable of engaging in civil intercourse and seemingly have no desire to do so. The simple fact is that these 'D4' poshies (and they DO exist) enjoy the fact that they stand out, relish their affiliation with the jock American subculture, and positively climax at the thought that they don't really have to work hard like the rest of us, they can always rely on 'daddy' to sort them out in the future. So there.

Deletion
I dont believe the section on the D4 stereotype should have been removed as it was an accurate description of the stereotypical D4. And if you actually live in Dublin you will know that you encounter people almost daily who pronounce guys as goiys to give one example. I think the article should be reverted to the 03:05, 26 January 2007 Ezhiki revision. thanks

Igorndhaswog 22:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * A stereotype is an accurate description of a stereotype - that's an interesting way of putting it. Autarch (talk) 19:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

PS: NOTE: I AM AFRAID I DISAGREE WITH THE STATEMENT OF "DUBLIN 4" INCLUDING IRISH TOWN AND HALF OF RINGSEND. I SHALL POLITICALLY NAME THE NEW DUBLIN 4 TO INCLUDE : DONNYBROOK, SANDYMOUNT, RANELAGH , BLACKROCK ALSO KNOWN AS "ROCK" , AND SANDYFORD AND BALLSBRIDGE! THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION!

CAKE IT ON CAKE IT ON PUT UR CANTOS ON PUT UR CANTOS ON HIGHLIGHT IT HIGHLIGHT IT DONTCHA THINK UR THE #### DONTCHA THINK UR THE #### PUT UR DECKS ON PUT UR DECKS ON PUT UR UGGS ON PUT UR UGGS ON PUT UR ABERCROMBIE ON OUT UR ABERCROMBIE ON AND POP! THE COLLAR POP! THE COLLAR PUT UR A EAGLE ON PUT UR A EAGLE ON AND POP......... WHATS WITH ALL THESE BITCHIN WORDS LOIKE LEDGE AND ROOOYSH LEDGE AND RROOOOYSSHH STRAIGHTEN THE HAIR STRAIGHTEN THE HAIR PUT IT UP IN A MESSY BUN GO ON STRAIGHTEN THE HAIR STRAIGHTEN THE HAIR PUT IT UP IN A MESSY BUN HUNNI ARE YOU A ##### OH NO NO UR A D4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WWWWWOOOOOOOO GO D4 WOOO RRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH

THANK YOU FOR UR TIME
 * The map linked to here disagrees with you. This is an encyclopedia, not a graffiti wall. Autarch (talk) 19:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

1980s

 * "That should go down well with the Minister of State's friends in Dublin 4." Mr. Noonan 10-04-1986


 * "It covers Dublin 2, 4 and 6 and, because of the writings of a journalist who hails from the west but has chosen to live in Dublin, the connotation Dublin 4 has a very salubrious image which suggests considerable affluence. The reality is that many of the population in the catchment area of this hospital are not affluent." Mr. Quinn 21-05-1987

1990s

 * "As Senator Murphy knows, Ireland is not confined to Dublin 4 or Dublin 6. There is a different way of life in many parts of the country." Dr. O'Connell 15-07-1992


 * "Will the Minister agree that judges tend to be if not of the Dublin 4 postal district certainly of the Dublin 4 type?" Mr. G. Mitchell 30-03-1993


 * "Arising from the Minister's reply, can we take it that his clear and concise exposition of the role and function of headage payments is a direct warning by the Minister to his colleague, the socialist yuppie Deputy for Dublin 4, Minister of State, Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald, to keep her hands off the headage payments and that there is no intention of perverting the use of headage payments to relieve Government expenditure on Social Welfare?" Mr. Dukes 07-04-1993


 * "Sadly, RTÉ has a perception of being Dublin based, particularly in its news output, and news executives in RTÉ would be the first to admit that their efforts to regionalise news coverage has not met with great success. In defence of the news editors in RTÉ, their contribution to this perception is more by omission than any conspiracy by the Dublin 4 set to ignore anything that happens outside the confines of that much maligned Dublin district." Mr. Mooney 22-02-1996


 * "It has become a joke to suggest that everyone who resides in Dublin 4 is rich and that it contains absolutely no areas of social deprivation. However, the statistics relating to St. Brigid's are quite frightening." Dr. Henry 23-11-1999

2000s

 * "It is not an exaggeration to say that the loss of one teacher will cause havoc in the school which is in a disadvantaged area. One should not be fooled by the Dublin 4 address – I have always said there is Dublin 4 and Dublin 4B, and many of these children are drawn not from Dublin 4 but from the inner city and Dublin 2. Many are from Ringsend where I live." Mr. Gormley 15-06-2000


 * "We will have no sniping from Dublin 4." Mr. Mooney 26-10-2004


 * "I seek the adjournment of the Dáil under Standing Order 31 to raise a matter of national importance, namely, the revelation by the Council of Europe that Ireland now has the highest rate of amphetamine use and the second highest rate of cocaine use in Europe; the need for more effective action to increase enforcement against drug traffickers and the right of this House to hold the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to account for his failure to prioritise this issue because it does not either suit his ideological agenda or affect the elite in Dublin 4." Aengus Ó Snodaigh 26-01-2005


 * "This is always met by the accusations of so-called Dublin 4 voices. It is not just Dublin 4 voices. I hear it now from people who have lived in the countryside all their lives." Mr. Norris 01-11-2006


 * I added the aforementioned quotes in case anybody finds them useful - they were retrieved using the advanced search facilities of Google limiting the search to the historical-debates.oireachtas.ie subdomain. Autarch 19:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Recent POV additions
I have reverted the recent POV additions made by an anon editor to this article. I spent quite a while trying to salvage SOMETHING of the additions, but the POV/unsourced commentary/original research and essay tone was so deeply ingrained that salvaging the content was impossible. And so a revert was the only option. By way of example of the problems:
 * Describing Charlie McCreevy as being of "humble social background" and "a declared enemy of middle class Dublin" is commentary and POV in the extreme.
 * Describing the district's "relationship" with the Catholic Church as "schitzophrenic" is both wholly unnecessary in an encyclopaedic article, and ridiculous generalisation.
 * Apart from being a misuse of the word "schizophrenic", there was a survey showing the area was slightly more religious than the average - I don't have a source to hand and I can only guess that it may be due to an older population than areas like, Tallaght. Autarch (talk) 19:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Stating that "Middle class Dublin has always been the most likely social element to introduce new political philosophies" is a ridiculously ludicrous (and totally unsourced) claim.
 * The claim that Dublin 4 residents have some kind of monopoly in the city/country on "good manners, tidyness, cleanliness, and an acute sense of social graces" is also outrageous
 * The repeated juxtaposition of the mores of "provincial Ireland" and D4 attitudes/outlook are also inappropriate in the extreme.

Apologies if any (valuable) intervening edits were reverted in the process. Guliolopez 12:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

An article should not be a collection of quotes
Read WP:QUOTE and then decide whether to place them into context or move them to Wikiquote. Hohenloh +01:31, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Des Fennell
This claimed Desmond Fennell is a "conservative" commentator. He is nothing of the sort. I deleted this. 86.44.57.55 (talk) 18:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's possible to see why, though. If someone assumes the cliché that Dublin 4 equals liberal, then they might assume that Desmond Fennell is a conservative. Others might argue that his views on Irish nationalism might be conservative compared to other Irish nationalists - see Starkadders comment - number 18 at this blog entry for an example.Autarch (talk) 21:04, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair point, but Starkadders above, on a "left wing" (if I'm not mistaken) board, termed Fennell a "conservative" seemingly because Fennell advocated what he viewed as a two-nations theory. Such a proposition to my mind would be radical in a nationalist context, and conservative in a unionist context. As Fennell is from a nationalist background he is surely being "radical" with such a proposal? Similarly, although having excellent Irish and a great grá for the language his proposals as long ago as 30 years ago on the Gaeltacht were fairly radical for their day. 86.44.57.55 (talk) 00:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Desmond Fennell is on record as being opposed to homosexuality, feminism and abortion. In a letter to the Irish Times, Fennell has stated ""the rules of Western civilisation are well known. Massacre and abortion are grievous crimes. Christian morality guides the making of laws. Men's work and women's work are different. Chastity and frugality are admirable virtues. Homosexual relationships are an unnatural vice. Women are legally subordinate to men". (Desmond Fennell, "The American Century" (Letter). The Irish Times, September 27th 1999, p.17). Fennell also wrote in an article for the IT in 8th August 2008 that attacked social changes since the 1960s, (with the problematic title "Grim reality of why the West's white race is now a dying breed") which stated " if the reality were different, and white westerners could act in their own long-term interest, they would institute an authoritative, critical examination of their prevailing rules system. And that would begin - but only begin - by scrutinising the prevailing, "politically correct" rules that bear on women's lives, and particularly on motherhood." Most political scientists I know of would class Fennell's ideas above as those of a "conservative commentator". I know of no liberal,socialist or libertarian capitalist commentators so strongly opposed to feminism and homosexuality. Indeed, in a discussion of Irish issues, Carol Coulter has claimed Fennell is an advocate of a "conservative nationalism fed on pre-capitalist communalist ideas" (Feminist Review, Summer 1993). As for Fennell's advocacy of the "two-nations theory",this has been advocated by but left-wing and right-wing groups (it was promoted by the Irish nationalist Arthur Clery, who seems to have been on the political right. So I state Fennell's opposition to feminism and homosexuality place him on the political right. 176.61.94.25 (talk) 22:25, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Change in meaning
During the 1990s, the term was widened to refer more to the wealth and posh life-style of many residents.[2], and the life of the the fictional jock Ross O'Carroll-Kelly was described in this context. - slight problem with this - the wealth and posh life-style of many residents asserts that many residents live like this - bear in mind that the phrase refers to two different things - the actual area defined by the postcode, which includes Ringsend and Irishtown and the cliché. Perhaps it would be better to keep the two notions further apart. Indeed, the Kim Bielenberg article says ''The postcode, which came into being in the 1960s, was long used as a slur to describe an elite with liberal views. But over the past decade the Dublin 4, or D4, tag has shifted in meaning. It now has connotations of a pampered generation of brats, sheltered from economic realities and dependent on daddy's credit card for €20 Champagne Mojitos and holidays in the Bahamas.'', which doesn't mention widening.Autarch (talk) 20:11, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Have edited it slightly to take above into account.Autarch (talk) 20:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Liberal?
Some references support the use of the word "liberal" even only in reference to the cliché:,.

A reference with a different point of view:.

The term "liberal" probably was applied as a result of the referenda of the 1980s and 1990s.

Autarch (talk) 12:26, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

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A possible inconsistency
According to the article use of the term "D4" as an adjective emerged in the 1990s yet the Ruari Quinn quote on the same page (also on talk) and the Michael Noonan quote from further up the talk page are examples from the 1980s. There may be a WP:RS out there that would put this use as far back as the 1980s. Autarch (talk) 22:32, 22 December 2020 (UTC)