Talk:Duchess of Richmond's ball/Archive 1

Dumaresq
I have reverted the change for this line:
 * Capt. Dumaresq., A.D.C. to Gen. Sir John Byng (Wounded in the chest by a musket ball, delivering a despatch to Wellington. d. 1836)

back to
 * Capt. Dumaresq., A.D.C. to Gen. Sir John Byng (Died of Wounds)

The reason for this was a Google around the internet. I found this page "Dumaresq, Henry (1792 - 1838)" which is the person who is being referred to in the edit I reversed. But how do we know he was a captain and ADC in 1815 if in 1818 he had jumped several ranks to lieutenant-colonel in 1818. It may be the same person but I think it needs a third party source if we are going to change the information in the list which is based on a source. --PBS (talk) 14:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

One other point this is the only name in the source I used that has ".," so it is possible that this is a mistype and should be "Capt. Dumar Esq.," probably not it is more likely that the dot is superfluous or has some other significance, but I think we need a third party source to change this line. --PBS (talk) 14:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

OK I've found a source that confirms Henry as ADC to John Byng (The Gentleman's Magazine July 1838 page 443). PBS (talk 14:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Ballroom differences and some other information
There is some debate about where the Ballroom was. I have not detailed all the arguments, but thy are available in the book by William Augustus Fraser which is cited in the article, as the weight of opinion is with him. One person who disputed the exact position of the ballroom was the Duchess's daughter, Georgiana, who became Lady de Ros:

In his book Fraser expands on the differences and fairly convincingly shows that the the differences between the two versions can be reconciled.

Here is another version:  A great deal of nonsense has been written about the ball, and probably the exact truth will never be known. For instance, the late Sir William Fraser, who wrote a pamphlet (now very rare) on the battle, declares that the ball-room was on the first-floor, and that the Duke of Richmond's house stood in the Rue de la Blanchisserie. The site is now covered by the large Hospital of the Nursing Sisters of the Order of St Augustine, while the The Duchess of Richmond and the room itself is used as the granary of a brewery. The ball-room, which was in existence in 1888, was 120 feet long by 34 feet broad and 13 feet high, and was capable of holding 400 people. On the other hand, the Duchess's daughter, Georgiana, who became Lady de Ros, and who died in 1891, at the age of 96, gives a different version in the charming reminiscences which were published in Murray's Magazine.

...

Lady Georgiana says in her reminiscences that the historic ballroom was on the ground floor, and it was lent to the Duke by a coachbuilder. The Duke's house, she says, was really No. 9 Rue de Cendres, Boulevard Botanique, near the Porte de Cologne. On this point she is quite explicit :

Lady de Ros says there were 175 invitations. Sir William Fraser says there were 200 guests and 50 ladies. Among those present were the Prince of Orange, Prince Ferdinand of Orange, the Duke of Brunswick, the Duke of Aremberg, whose eye had been accidentally destroyed by Sir William Gordon, a diplomat, in 1775 ; the Hon. John Gordon (afterwards Admiral) ; and the Hon. Sir Alexander Gordon, who fell in the battle, grandsons of the third Earl of Aberdeen. Among the other guests was Lady Elizabeth Conyngham, who, in 1826 married the father of the present Marquis of Huntly (by whom she had no issue). It is difficult now to say how many of the Duchess's own daughters attended. Tradition, for instance, declares that the younger daughter Louisa, who married Mr. Tighe, and died in Ireland in March, 1900, at the age of 97, buckled on Wellington's sword. Lady Louisa wrote to Colonel Greenhill Gardyne, the historian of the Gordon Highlanders :—

The ball was certainly a very brilliant affair. One of the best descriptions of it was given in the Cornhill Magazine a few years ago :—

Taken from Full text of "Gordon book; published for the Bazaar of the ... pp 41,43

The source that the Gordon book uses for the long quote can be found with a Google book search and a bit of searching the text returned gives (The Cornhill Magazine, Volume 77, by George Smith, William Makepeace Thackeray Published by Smith, Elder and company., 1898 p. 72 and The Living Age ...,Volume 216, by Making of America Project, Published 1898)

There are some other facts which it might be worth including in the article like the reel danced by the Scottish soldiers. --PBS (talk) 14:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

 For what it's worth, John Jay Smith in 1846 identified the Ball as having been held at Brussels' Maison du Roi; see: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NKgPAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA44. It's not a dependable source, but it pre-dates Fraser's investigation by 40 or so years: Opposite the town hall is the Maison du Roi, once the residence of the cruel Alva, and equally remarkable as the scene of the Duchess of Richmond's ball before the battle of Waterloo, of which so much has been said and written. The Place is graced by an old fountain, and market women are sitting round their baskets vending fruit and vegetables, dressed in old and curious garments. No description can do justice to this very remarkable square.

Becky Sharp
In the Cultural Influences section I wrote a paragraph about the film Becky Sharp and its depiction of the Duchess of Richmond's Ball. I received a message asking that I source my information. I did so (should have to begin with, sorry) and wanted to respond to the message, but somehow I closed it and can't seem to get it back, so I'll respond here.

The source I added the end of the paragraph contains all of the information I used. Some of the information - for instance, the fact that the film is the first full-color feature film ever released and that it is an adaptation of Thackeray's novel - is further sourced in the linked article about the movie. Given the picture's status as the first full-Technicolor release, it must follow that the ball is the first historical set-piece ever to appear in a full-color feature film. If there is any question as to the reliability of my source, the Becky Sharp chapter of "Harnessing the Technicolor Rainbow", perhaps the book's listing on Amazon will help: http://www.amazon.com/Harnessing-Technicolor-Rainbow-Color-Design/dp/0292716281  Berberry (talk) 16:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Although one can quibble that if it has a link to another article the material is not likely to be challenged so it does not need a source (see WP:PROVIT) the policy page that PROVEIT comes from, WP:V, has a provision that Wikipedia can not be used as a source (WP:CIRCULAR). As this article is fully sourced please provide one for the information that is currently sourced via the link. BTW I often find that following such links leads me to an article where the facts are not sourced, so sourcing one provides sources for two articles. -- PBS (talk) 21:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I have now done so and I appreciate your help. This is a fine wikipedia article and I can see why you want to keep it fully sourced. I hope the information I've added to the article will be useful to someone. Berberry (talk) 00:11, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I've made some minor changes to the wording of this paragraph. In particular, I removed the part about news of Napoleon's advance being received at the ball. I had forgotten that, in the movie, this news comes not from a messenger but from actual cannonfire directed at the house and ballroom. Rather than explain this, which doesn't seem necessary since the picture is considered a classic only for its use of color, I simply talk about the officers' exits. Berberry (talk) 08:57, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Gone With The Wind
I haven't seen the picture in many years, but a sequence within it occurs to me as having possibly been inspired by the Duchess of Richmond's Ball: the dinner and dance at Twelve Oaks. It is at this party that guests receive news that the Civil War has broken out not far away, in South Carolina. The men immediately prepare to leave to join the Southern forces, and there are a number of tearful partings and fears that death on the battlefield will prevent reunions for many of those present.

Are these similarities enough to warrant a mention in the present article? Berberry (talk) 14:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Given that these two topics have been thoroughly analyzed in secondary sources, it should be no problem to determine if this connection has been made before. If it has been mentioned in secondary sources, then it might be a useful addition to the article. Abductive  (reasoning) 15:25, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I've googled this every way I can think of, and the most I can find is the apparently not uncommon belief that the entire Margaret Mitchell novel was a re-imagining of Vanity Fair, although Mitchell claimed to have never read the book until someone brought it to her attention after reading GWTW. Ironically, I did find another possible inspiration for the Twelve Oaks party, one which Mitchell might well have known about. It was an event almost identical to the Duchess of Richmond's Ball, so much so that one might need only to change the names of the people, places and wars involved, but otherwise use the same script to describe both events in reasonable detail: the Balfour House Christmas Ball of 1862, held in Vicksburg, Mississippi, the last Confederate stronghold of the American Civil War. I wrote a short article about it here: Balfour house. Berberry (talk) 09:19, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

The Duchess
Rather astonishing that we don't have an article about the Duchess herself. john k (talk) 15:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Opening paragraphs
Shouldn't the introductory section of this article make some mention of its subject's most dramatic and defining moment? I'd like to propose the following sentence, to be added at the end of the second introductory paragraph: "The presence of so many officers helped assure this Ball of an important place in history, for it was here that those officers received news that Napoleon had crossed the border into Belgium." Berberry (talk) 03:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem is a judgemental statement and we can not make that statement unless we have a source to make it for us (See WP:OR). Find a reliable source that says as much, and then we can add that opinion. -- PBS (talk) 15:34, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Some other sources about anniversary dances
Some other sources about anniversary dances -- PBS (talk) 12:49, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
 * 2015 Committees

Alternative placement of the ballroom


The paper above describes an alternative placement of the ballroom, based on the theory that the ballroom was knocked down before Frazer went looking for. -- PBS (talk) 12:49, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

More biographies on the Belgian nobility

 * Sources:
 * -- I was going to buy a second had version of this book but the cheapest price on Amzon was $276.00 with new at a minimum of $999.11!
 * -- I was going to buy a second had version of this book but the cheapest price on Amzon was $276.00 with new at a minimum of $999.11!


 * There are three lists:
 * Georgiana Lennox published the list as well in her memoirs being handed over to Lord Verulam by her mother (Swinton 1893, p.124). This is the most famous one.
 * A list taken from Duvivier. In: Ce que devint l’hotel de la rue de la Blanchisserie. In: LMB. Archieffonds Franse periode Vol.III Box 25 I.3 Chapter 5 (Yet, there is no clear idea about the primary sources used for this list) -- "In 1915 a book was published in Belgium which included another version of the list. This was based on the De Ros list, but with the names regrouped and with corrections and annotations to many of the Belgian entries; this is named after its author as the 'Delhaize List' and is at Appendix C"
 * A list held at Goodwood house it was published in The Duchess of Richmond's Ball: 15 June 1815  by David M. O. Miller and previously in A Mixed Bag. by C.C.R. Murphy Published by WIlliam Clowes in 1936.

Here are some notes with some sources that I have made about some of the Belgian nobility in the current list:

[snip]
 * Lord van der Linden d'Hoogvoorst, Mayor of Brussels Joseph van der Linden d'Hooghvorst
 * Marquis (1764-1847) and Marquise d'Assche (1792–1879; second wife).Lady De Ros annotated her list with this comment "(from their house we saw the wounded brought in: Lord Uxbridge, Lord F. Somerset, etc.)" (Littell's living age p. 309.)


 * Comte and Comtesse Liedekerke Beaufort


 * Comte and Comtesse d'Oultremont <--- Another source gives this as "le comte et las comtess d'Oultremont et [Eugène], prince de Ligne".

fr:Famille d'Oultremont fr:Émile d'Oultremont nl:Emile d'Oultremont

Charles-Ignace d'Oultremont (1753–1802) d'Oultremont (d. 1802) Married a very wealthy woman, Anne-Henriette de Neuf (1757-1830) and their eldest child, Emile (1787-1851), became Count d'Oultremont in 1802. Count Emile's first marriage to his cousin, Marie-Françoise de Lierneux de Presles, who also came from a rich family, but she died soon afterwards and in late 1814 he married the recently widowed Princess Louise de Ligne (1785-1864). Thus, the pair attending the Ball were Emile, Count d'Oultremont and Countess Louise. The countess, generally reckoned to be the most beautiful woman present at the Ball, was accompanied by her 11-year-old son by her first marriage, Prince Eugene Lamoral de Ligne (1804-1880). He was the grandson of Field Marshal Prince Charles Joseph de Ligne (1735-1814), whose vast ...

Price Charles Joseph's two sons predeceased him, the elder in 1792, the second in a horse-riding accident in Vienna, The latter Prince Louis Lamoral (1766-1813), married Comtesse louise de Duras (1785-1864), and when his grandfather died in 1814, their son Price Eugene became head of the house of De Ligne at the tender age of 10.

Two sources state that "The countess of Oultremont, born countess Van der Noot de Duras, was the widow of the prince Louis de Ligne [(7 May 1766 – 10 May 1813)], son of the former marshal &#91;Charles-Joseph, 7th Prince of Ligne (1735–1814)]. From him she had a child, a son, Eugène, prince de Ligne, who was at the ball, despite his very low age [he was a boy of about 10]."footnote 2


 * Comtesse Douairiere d'Oultremont and her daughters <-- douairière is Dowager Countess d'Oultremont and her daughters (two or more)]Footnote 2

Dowager-Countess d'Oultremont and Mademoiselles This was Count Emile's mother Anne-Henriette d'Oultremont [(nee de Neuf (1757-1830))], the widow of Charles-Ignace. The Mademoiselles were two (possibly more) of her daughters.

Maison de Liedekerke fr:de Liedekerke-Beaufort two brothers both counts fr:Hilarion de Liedekerke-Beaufort fr:Charles Alexandre de Liedekerke-Beaufort


 * Comte and Comtesse Liedekerke-Beaufort

Possibly -- right name:
 * Charles Florent Auguste de LIEDEKERKE BEAUFORT 1789-1855 married 20 April 1813, Bruxelles (Belgique), to Marie Charlotte Alix,comtesse de La TOUR du PIN-GOUVERNET 1796-1822  -- Too young.


 * Comte and Comtesse Auguste Liedekerke and their daughter <-- Also liedekerke-Baufort "The countess was the daughter of de la Tour Dupin [(Latour Dupin)]".


 * Comte and Comtesse Latour Lupin <I think this is "Latour Dupin", ambassador for Louis XVIII in The Hague, former prefect of Dyle in 1813, and the countess. see "Latour-Dupin Gouvernet (ls Marquis de)" Galerie historique des contemporains, ou Nouvelle biographie, Volume 6 pp. 178–179 and "(3) La Tour Du Pin-Goyvernet (Frederic-Séraphin, marquis de), 1759–1837" Histoire des préfets: Cent cinquante ans d'adminitration provinciale, 1800-1950 p. 74


 * Comte and Comtesse Marcy d'Argenteau <---Count and Countess mercy d'Argentau, Count Francois de Mercy d'Argentau "Count and Countess Mercy d'Argentau Count Francois de Mercy d'Argentau was at one time the Austrian ambassador to the Kingdom of Bavaria. When the new Kingdom of the Netherlands was established the count was appointed Grand Chamberlain to the King of the Netherlands and governor of the province of Southern Brabant. (page 77)"


 * Comte and Comtesse de Grasiac <--- can not find anything on these but the name may be "de Crasiac" again nothing on that in English.
 * Comtesse de Luiny
 * Comtesse de Ruilly
 * Baron and Baroness d'Hooghvoorst, their daughter and son C. d'Hooghvoorst <--- see fr:Emmanuel van der Linden d'Hooghvorst
 * Monsieur and Madame Vander Capellan <---Baron Van der Capellen, secretary of state, governor of the Belgian provinces
 * Baron de Herelt
 * Baron de Tuybe
 * Baron Brockhausen <---Von Brockhausen, Prussian minister in The Hague

From the same list in the French article (fr:Bal de la Duchesse de Richmond): [snip]
 * lord van der Linden d'Hoogvoorst, bourgmestre de Bruxelles
 * Maximilien-Louis, comte van der Noot, marquis d'Assche et Adelaide d'Yve, Marquise d’Asschelady De Ros annote sa liste de ces mots "(De leur maison nous vîment les blessés arriver: Lord Uxbridge, Lord F. Somerset, etc.)" (Littell's living age p. 309.).
 * comte et comtesse d’Oultremont
 * comtesse douairiere d’Oultremont et les Mesdemoiselles
 * comte et comtesse de Liedekerke Beaufort
 * comte et comtesse Auguste de Liedekerke et Mademoiselle
 * comte et comtesse de La Tour du Pin
 * comte et comtesse de Mercy-Argenteau
 * comte et comtesse de Grasiac
 * comtesse de Luiny
 * comtesse de Ruilly
 * baron et baronne Emmanuel d’Hooghvoorst
 * mademoiselle d’Hooghvoorst et Monsieur C. d’Hooghvoorst
 * monsieur et madame van der Capellan
 * baron de Herelt.
 * baron de Tuybe
 * baron Brockhausen

Blairall and FactStraight, as we worked together on House of Beaufort-Spontin, and as it is 200 anniversary of the ball this year, I hope you can lend you expertise in creating as many articles as possible, for what are not well sourced biographies in easily available English language sources.

-- PBS (talk) 12:49, 24 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I am just seeing this note for the first time. I accept your thoughtful invitation and shall do my best! FactStraight (talk) 00:49, 11 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Godert van der Capellen has an article, if we are sure that it is him. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:22, 4 November 2015 (UTC).

Captain Pakenham
Royal Artillery Staff Officer  And History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery  (Note the Pakenhams were closely related to Wellington - whether this Pakenham was I don't know.)

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:09, 4 November 2015 (UTC).

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Polhill
user:Colourman you added the following bullet point to the article on 19 October 2016: I have moved it here for further discussion. The current list is based on list that has been published in several sources and which is cited at the start of the list:
 * Mr. William Polhill, 16th Light Dragoons
 * "The following list of the invited guests was given by my mother to Lord Verulam, who sent me a copy of it. Several of the officers were not present, being on duty" (Swinton 1893, pp. 124–132).

What is the source for your addition to this list? -- PBS (talk) 21:48, 31 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I think I know where the confusion comes from:
 * Officer's full dress jacket, 16th (or Queen's) Light Dragoons, 1814 (c)., National Army Museum
 * Officer’s Full Dress Jacket, Waterloo200.org
 * The Waterloo 200 states "However, Lieutenant William Polhill of the 16th (Queen’s Light Dragoons) was forced to ride into the Battle of Waterloo along with his regiment in full dress as they had not yet received their new uniforms." This does not mean that he was at the Duchess of Richmond's Ball, just that his field uniform had not yet arrived (the inverse of Sir Thomas Picton who went to Waterloo dressed as a civilian, because he uniform had got lost with the rest of his luggage).
 * -- PBS (talk) 20:06, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

A Polhill cousin of mine has the original invitation. My statement has nothing to do with his uniform. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colourman (talk • contribs) 21:45, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
 * "Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience, because that would make Wikipedia a primary source of that material" (WP:PST). @Colourman: Has the invitation been "reputably published" (WP:PST)? Do you have an explanation as to why it is not in the published lists sourced in this article? -- PBS (talk) 12:44, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

I have no idea why it was not published. It doesn't really matter as I was not trying to score a point. If you like, please remove the reference. In the meantime we still have the invitation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colourman (talk • contribs) 11:35, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

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