Talk:Duchy of Lorraine

Older
The history section in the article is totally biased (with anti-French/German nationalist approach), and needsll'#[;#;'. Hardouin 03:07, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Care to elaborate on how it is biased? 1:09, 13 Nov 2004 (EST)


 * It discusses forced imposition of French customs and language on "German" population in the early modern period (it is questionable whether this occurred at all prior to the French Revolution), and it refers to the region being "reunited" with Germany (implying irredentist claims). This can be a very delicate subject (similar to the ugly German-Australian disputes which erupt here), and care ought to be taken.  From an historian's (rather than a nationalist's) perspective, there is no point in describing the population as "French" or "German" before the invention of the modern concept of the nation (circa 1800 or so).  (Almost nobody in France spoke "true" French until fairly recently; all regions had their own languages or dialects, and while Alsace-Lorraine had Germanic local speech and Bretagne had Celtic, it is not clear that anyone really considered this important.) The article should not make claims about things like national identity, but should instead discuss the importance both French and German nationalists have placed on "proving" that the region is "French" or "German".


 * It is probably worth having an article on the Alsace-Lorraine issue, because the two regions are normally linked in this context, and rather than duplicating the discussion, both regional articles could link to it. --Tkinias 04:10, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I've redone some of the article stressing german oppression while keeping french examples as well. I think its pretty indisputable that most of Lorraine is 'french' (Bismarck didnt contest it), I left the question of Moselle's nationality open, but its pretty meaningless at this point (at the same level of whether transylvania is romanian or if croatia is yugoslav). --CJWilly 11:30, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Lorraine: neither French or German...
Being from Lorraine, I just would like to point out that when we are talking about Alsace-Lorraine, although the term encompass the totality of Alsace, it only refers to a fourth of Lorraine, now called Moselle. The other 3 "departements" of Lorraine (Meuse, Meurthe-et-Moselle and Vosges) always remained French from 1766 til today.

Also worth noting, Lorraine is one of the last big "regions" to become French in 1766 (followed by Savoie in 1860). Before 1766, It was relatively independant, and both the kingdom of France and the German Empire were considered foreign neighbours as Mexico and Canada would be for the US. Also interesting to see that our cousins from DOM-TOM (such as caribeean islands Martinique and Guadeloupe) became French before the inhabitants of Lorraine!!

Lastly, Lorraine never had a common language but a lot of different patois (French replaced them only during the 20th century through school education). That said, we can recognised that the northern half of today's Meurthe-et-Moselle AND Moselle (called Moselle before 1870) had mainly German-related dialects, while the southern half (previously called Meurthe) AND Vosges AND Meuse had mainly old French-related dialects.

As for the controversy about Alsace-Lorraine being French or German, let's not forget that nationality should not always be based on language but also on traditions/customs and willingness to be part of a country/nation. Alsace and Lorraine experienced the French revolution, took part in Napoleon's campaigns (and supported him and his nephew with higher percentage than the French average), and although the population wasn't necessarily French-speakers, it is generally admitted that on the whole, the population was leaning towards France rather than Germany...


 * Ok, first you stress the importance of seperating these things out, then lump them together again. Alsace without doubt, after the first world war, leaned towards Germany and pro-french parties recieved few votes in the last election before WWI. There was also nearly an armed stand-off when France annexed Alsace after WWI. Of course you could probably find examples which support Alsace being more pro-french, certainlly this is true today. However historically the area was indesputably Germanic. Also their support of Napolean might have nothing to do with their identity as "french" but rather resentment of local rulers etc.


 * Regardless, I think it's unfortunate that we can't just put up some statistics here regarding books published in Strassbourg (what language were they in throughout history?). The modern identity of the area is not being contested, the see themselves as french, so there's no need for nationalist rants supporting one side or the other, it's irrelevant. 130.71.96.23 05:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps one should note that Germany/Prussia's main interest there was coal, and linguistic similarities mainly an excuse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Codik (talk • contribs) 15:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge
I just added suggestions to merge Lorraine (province) and Lorraine (région). I do understand the difference between the two, but in my opinion they can be presented in a single article. There is already a significant overlap, and I don't see how to justify listing typical Lorraine foods in one article but not the other, and discussing the regional languages in both (at the moment the information in the Lorraine_(province) article is wrong). CapnPrep 19:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It would make more sense to merge this article with Duchy of Lorraine rather than with Lorraine (région). The modern région is much larger than the historical province, whereas the historical province and the Duchy of Lorraine share the exact same territory. On Wikipedia we distinguish between modern divisions and historical provinces whenever the limits are different, such as is the case with Flanders (the modern federal entity) vs. Flanders (county) (the actual historical Flanders, smaller than the current federal entity). Hardouin 22:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * In that case let's combine Duchy of Lorraine and Lorraine (province) into a more general article about the "territory" of Lorraine (because "Duchy" will no longer be an appropriate name for the whole article). I am mostly bothered by the overlap between the province and région articles at the moment, so whatever we do I think that all redundant sections should be taken out of "région" (leaving only administrative, economic, political information). For cultural, historical, environmental details, link to the "main" Lorraine article. CapnPrep 09:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I made a draft of what the History section of this article would look like if Duchy of Lorraine was merged here. It's at User:Tocharianne/Lorraine. Tocharianne 16:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Joan of Arc's Birthplace
When studying the life o Joan of Arc, I learnt that she was born in Donrémy, a village in the modern region of Lorraine. If Lorraine was occupied by France only in the seventeenth century, then how would it have any sense of French identity? Where fragments of the area pockets of French government in the medieval era? I would be grateful if anyone were able to share any knowledge about Lorraine's past in the Hundred Years War. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.72.154.162 (talk) 06:16, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Domremy was not part of the Duchy of Lorraine but belonged to France before and after Jeanne's lifetime. Only the modern region of Lorraine encompassed the town, as it was situated close to the border. Str1977 (talk) 11:03, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure, Domremy was first in the County of Bar and then in the Duchy of Bar, depending on the king of France, so in French Lorraine, while the Duchy of Lorraine depended on the German emperor. Nevertheless, the parish of Domremy was included in the bishopric of Toul and the Bishop of Toul was count of the German empire. Complicated situation. Concerning the expression Lorraine "was occupied by France" : this sentence is abusive, as far as I understand it very well : the duchy of Lorraine became French without any "occupation". Nortmannus (talk) 19:52, 6 July 2012.(UTC)

Duchy of Upper Lorraine
Anyone opposed to renaming this page to Duchy of Upper Lorraine (now a redirect)? The undivided Duchy of Lorraine is dealt with under Lotharingia, the Duchy of Lower Lorraine under Lower Lorraine, while this article essentially deals with the Duchy of Upper Lorraine.--Joostik (talk) 17:13, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Duchy of Lotharingia
I am opposed to renaming this Article to Duchy of Upper Lorraine (now a redirect). This Article should be renamed Duchy of Lotharingia, since this is the translation of ist German name, which is Herzogtum Lothringen. About this Region it is also talked about in the Article named Lotharingia. There it is clearly stated that through History this Region was in Middle Francia, then it was Kingdom of Lotharingia, and then it became Duchy of Lotharingia. Duchy of Upper Lorraine is also just one of two parts of this Region, not the whole Region. --The Nerd from Earth (talk) 17:38, 26 May 2011 (CET)
 * This article deals almost exclusively with the Duchy of Upper Lorraine, which in 959 split off from the Duchy of Lorraine under the name Duchy of the Moselle. The duchy of Lorraine continued until being declared defunct in 1190. It was only retrospectively named "Lower-Lorraine". In fact the title "Duke of Lotharingia" continued being used by the dukes of Brabant until the end of the ancien régime. Only in the 15th century when the duchy of the Moselle came into the possession of the dukes of Anjou it became called "Lorraine" again, retrospectively "Upper-Lorraine" to distinguish from the original duchy. Eventually the name went to the modern French region, which is only a small part of the original Lotharingia, which reached as far as Frisia.--Joostik (talk) 09:26, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Requested move (2012)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:32, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Lorraine (duchy) → Upper Lorraine – for the reasons given above; mainly to distinguish from the original undivided Duchy of Lorraine, and the duchy of Lower Lorraine. --Relisted Aervanath (talk) 13:37, 23 March 2012 (UTC) --Joostik (talk) 18:46, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * the scope of the article is not clear : what is usually called "duchy of Lorraine" does not encompass all "upper Lorraine", but only the territories controlled by the dukes of Lorraine, ie the south and east of the modern region, without the Three Bishoprics, the Archbishopric of Trier, the Republic of Metz etc--Phso2 (talk) 22:25, 15 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment redirects here, and the  hasn't been an article since 2007. 70.24.251.224 (talk) 04:19, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Support since it is not a duchy anymore. A title which is more clearly just a geographic description is therefor prefereable when discussing what has happened to the area since the last duke left office. Pinut (talk) 09:53, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * but there is no modern region that bear the name "Upper Lorraine", either in a geographic or administrative way. So what is the subject of this article?--Phso2 (talk) 19:18, 18 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose: The article is about the historic entity, which is most commonly known as Duchy of Lorraine, not Upper Lorraine. --RJFF (talk) 17:37, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 21 January 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Move. We have a decisive consensus for the proposed arrangement. Cúchullain t/ c 16:43, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

– As correctly stated in the last 2012 move request (see above), the subject of this article is mostly known as the "Duchy of Lorraine". It is used in the article and is the title of the most important correspondent articles in the French and the German Wikipedia. Additionally, this would render the disambiguation unnecessary, which is also preferable as per WP:NATURAL; a hatnote would of course be required. Resolving the topic's ambiguity has become quite a bit easier, now that Lorraine is no administrative region anymore, so the article Lorraine (region) doesn't have to exclusively focus on the political demarcation anymore, but can better discuss the territorial developments to fully cover the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. -- PanchoS (talk) 02:03, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Lorraine (duchy) → Duchy of Lorraine
 * Lorraine → Lorraine (disambiguation)
 * Lorraine (region) → Lorraine
 * Comment Lorraine is also a name, Lorraine (given name), Lorraine (surname) -- 70.51.200.135 (talk) 05:42, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment; I think that Lorraine the region is primary topic over the given name, so we can probably ignore that particular issue PanchoS. I want to see more comment before I decide to support or oppose. InsertCleverPhraseHere InsertTalkHere 08:57, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Support as proposed – The article on the duchy should be moved per WP:NATURAL, and it is clear that the region is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. RGloucester  — ☎ 17:26, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. A slightly weaker support for moving the region to "Lorraine" but seems harmless. SnowFire (talk) 01:56, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. --Bermicourt (talk) 11:27, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. The "Duchy of Lorraine" seems to be the natural title for this article. I am not certain that we do not still need a Lorraine (disambiguation), but the region is obviously the primary topic. Dimadick (talk) 13:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh, of course we still need that disambiguation. I just requested moving it to Lorraine (disambiguation) to make way for the primary topic. --PanchoS (talk) 18:12, 26 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Support Duchy of Lorraine. the move is already done?  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:16, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Moved by on 22 January. This shouldn't affect our discussion here, but the result seems clear anyway. --PanchoS (talk) 14:01, 29 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Article name and approach
I think Lorraine is a confusing term for the period covered by most of this article, and not the one normally used by historians writing in English. Lotharingia would be better? For the time being WP is inconsistent, but I think most better articles also use Lotharingia. I'll post a few such messages on articles where I notice examples. As a second problem though, perhaps caused by this confusion, the article pastes in snippets of information from a much later period where the term Lorraine would be more conventional.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:06, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Demonym?
What is the demonym for the DUCHY, (only) Lorrainian, or (still/also) Lotharingian? Or does it only depend on whom you ask, Germanophiles or Francophiles?

Here is the right page to ask the question, as Lotharingia is timewise much closer to the duchy, but I have also initiated a similar discussion with regard to the REGION on the appropriate page, pls coordinate if needed. Arminden (talk) 13:01, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

For a 12th-century epic, the Catholic Encyclopedia (1910) uses 'Lotharingian'. Arminden (talk) 14:07, 5 October 2021 (UTC)