Talk:Duchy of Massa and Carrara

what happened?

 * The original core of this territory was officially created on 22 February 1473 with the purchase of the Signoria of Carrara (villages of Carrara, Moneta and Avenza) by the Signoria of Massa by the Marquis of Massa Iacopo Malaspina, which was obtained by count Antoniotto Filoremo of Genoa, head of the Campofregoso family line of Milan. The noble title of Malaspina then became the Marquis of Massa and lords of Carrara.

There are too many "by"s here! Who bought Carrara: the Marquis personally, or the Signoria of Massa? What did Filoremo obtain, from whom, when?

The word "officially" suggests (to me) that the purchase was somehow ratified by a royal or imperial official – which, even if true, seems inessential to the story. —Tamfang (talk) 17:59, 11 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Agreed that the chain of purchases and purchasers needs clarification, the "official" reference is important to elaborate upon because it is important to the elevation of this dukedom to a sovereign duchy. Lordships changing lords was common, whereas acquisition of the independence and prerogatives of sovereignty was rare and is what distinguishes Massa and Carrara from other mediate estates held by nobles. FactStraight (talk) 18:43, 11 February 2015 (UTC)


 * If there's a legal link between the purchase and the elevation, it needs to be shown; and if Massa was relieved of mediacy, its previous overlord should be named. Was the elevation automatic upon an "officially" approved purchase?  Did the Emperor later say "Massa and Carrara are now a sovereign duchy, because they have officially been a marquisate since 22 February 1473"?  Either seems unlikely.  In any case, who was the "official"? —Tamfang (talk) 19:22, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * You ask pertinent questions, to most of which however I don't have answers attributable to reliable sources I can lay hands on. That among the enumerable Italian dukedoms and princedoms which were mere lordships subject to a king or pope or other noble, Massa and Carrara was a sovereign Imperial state is as much a part of known Italian history as was the existence of the equally sovereign Duchy of Parma, Marquisate of Mantua, Grand Duchy of Tuscany or the Principality of Monaco -- but I don't claim to be the scholar in Italian history to prove it any more than I'm the physicist to prove that water is wet. That its heiress, last of the ruling dynasty of Cybo-Malaspina descended from Pope Innocent VIII, was the subject of a treaty among the monarchs of Modena, the Holy Roman Empire and Great Britain to permanently annex her realm to the independent Duchy of Modena in favor of an Austrian archduke is about the extent of my recollection, documentation for which I'll append if I can find it. Much of the info in the article has been (rightly!) deleted, being the (no-doubt copy-vio'd) edits of a LouisPhilippeCharles sockpuppet, but that has largely left us with a stub deserving of expansion and sourcing -- not expunging as if Massa and Carrara as an entity never existed like the many empty titles of Italian nobles. Nor is Massa and Carrara alone: The duchies and principalities of Mirandola, ruled by the Pico, Masserano held by the Fieschi, Santa Fiora inherited by the Sforza, Piombino headed by the Boncompagni were among many mini-realms whose climb to that status was intricate, incremental and ephemeral (but "official", as acknowledged by some Emperor, Pope or King), smaller all by far than Massa and Carrara, about which Wikipedia is largely silent because nobody's dug up the documentation to save their historicity from being deleted. But exist they did. FactStraight (talk) 04:54, 12 February 2015 (UTC)