Talk:Duchy of Pannonian Croatia

Fork?
Pardon me, why do we need a fork of Lower Pannonia (9th century) and/or Principality of Lower Pannonia? Surtsicna (talk) 19:24, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

So called "Pannonian Croatia" never existed
Pannonian Croatia is an invention, or, if we use a less harsh term, romantic vulgate. In wikipedia exist a "twin article": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Pannonia_(9th_century). Here we read: "Contemporary Latin sources referred to the polity as Pannonia inferior (Lower Pannonia).[4][8] In 19th- and 20th-century Croatian historiography, the focus was usually placed on the territories between the rivers Drava and Sava. They referred to the polity as "Pannonian Croatia" (Croatian: Panonska Hrvatska), to describe this entity in a manner that emphasized its Croatian nature mainly based on De Administrando Imperio (DAI) chapter 30.[11] While DAI claims that the Croats had moved into Pannonia in the 7th century and ruled over it, a modern analysis of sources indicates this was unlikely. Nevertheless, according to Croatian historian Hrvoje Gračanin, the traditions and language of the Slavs of southern Pannonia did not differ from those in Dalmatia, so during the periods when Frankish sources did not record a specific ruler of Lower Pannonia, it is possible (!!!) that the Croatian dukes of Dalmatia, who were also Frankish vassals at the time, extended control over the region.[11] The Croat name was not used in contemporary sources, until the late 9th century, rendering the name anachronistic before then;[11][12] While the term "Croat" was not used in sources about Pannonia, the rulers of the Trpimirović dynasty after Trpimir called themselves the rulers of the Croats and of the Slavs." The Pannonia inferior become at some point in medieval time the Regnum Sclavoniae, or, in a quasi-contemporary book of the Varaždin deacon Anton Vramec, "Szlouenieh" and finaly "Slavonija".

So, today a much more neutral article exist, the afore mentioned https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Pannonia_(9th_century). Please, delete this "neoromantic fable" once for all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.234.156.48 (talk) 19:45, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

"Pannonian Croatia" is a historical myth arisen in the 19-th century
It would be good if the English wikipedia expunged every anachronistic reference to a mythical "Croatian Pannonia". This controversial article Duchy of Pannonian Croatia is merely a pompous and historically insubstantial duplication of the already existing Lower Pannonia (9th century).

"Pannonian Croatia" is a historical myth arisen in the 19-th century. The High medieval Lower Pannonia was a region, inhabitated by Slavic tribes whose names were lost. Later in medieval sources the region was called in latin Sclavonia (in general, a common Latin designation for various regions inhabited by Sclavoni (Slavs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclavonia), Windisches Land / Windischland by the Germans, Tótország by Hungarn and so on. A relatively later author Antun Vramec (second half of XVIth century) wrote about the Slavonian land as "Szlouenia / Szlouenzka zemla", land of the Slavs. Indeed, until the nineteenth century we have no mention of a Croatian Pannonia.

Among other things, the same term that in the Slavic languages designates Slavs in general (slovan / slaven / slavljan) is much later than the period addressed. And the Croatian term designating Slavonia is simply a linguistic cast from the Latin Sclavonia. Otherwise we would have the name Slavenija or, following the local word from the XVIth century, "Slovenija" (ok, maybe the latter is too much...).

I would like to mention an important note in the en.wiki article Lower Pannonia (9th century): "Contemporary Latin sources referred to the polity as Pannonia inferior (Lower Pannonia).[4][8] In 19th- and 20th-century Croatian historiography, the focus was usually placed on the territories between the rivers Drava and Sava. They referred to the polity as "Pannonian Croatia" (Croatian: Panonska Hrvatska), to describe this entity in a manner that emphasized its Croatian nature mainly based on De Administrando Imperio (DAI) chapter 30.[11] While DAI claims that the Croats had moved into Pannonia in the 7th century and ruled over it, a modern analysis of sources indicates this was unlikely. ...The Croat name was not used in contemporary sources, until the late 9th century, rendering the name anachronistic before then;[11][12] While the term "Croat" was not used in sources about Pannonia, the rulers of the Trpimirović dynasty after Trpimir called themselves the rulers of the Croats and of the Slavs.[13]"

After the migrations following the arrival of the Turks the situation changed: the Croats lost all political political influence on the territory of their medieval kingdom, divided between the Venetians and the Ottomans. The political center of gravity shifted to the northern part of medieval Sclavonia, which was eventually designated "Civil Croatia". With romanticism the Croatian politicians overcame every embarrassment and transformed the medieval "szlouenzki" language into the "Kajkavian dialect", the dominant language in the territory of the medieval Croatian kingdom was renamed "Chakavian dialect" while the language of refugees from the south became for them the "Shtokavian dialect "... implied dialects of the Croatian language, the language of a nation that underwent a second ethnogenesis "from above". But that's another story.

In conclusion:

- Lower Pannonia is never mentioned under the name "Pannonian Croatia", which is an fabrication from the 19th century.

- Not even the presence of Croats in that region is confirmed. For the ninth century there is no data to confirm that the ruling class, of which Ljudevit Posavski was a member, was composed of Croats.

- In the following centuries until at least the beginning of the seventeenth century the sources in the four dominant languages ​​in that area (Latin, German, Hungarian and the local spoken language known to Anton Vramec with the name "szlouenzki iezik") refer to the Slavonia of that time with the generic terms of "Slavic country", to its people with the term "Slavs" and to the spoken with the term "Slavic language", often in contrast with the neighboring "Horvatski - croat" region, people and language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.50.235.155 (talk) 20:05, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

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Merger
The merger of Duchy of Pannonian Croatia with Pannonian Slavs and then moved to the newly created article Slavs in Lower Pannonia is inappropriate. Let me say that there are similar articles dealing with medieval history of modern nations who carry different names (e.g. Grand Principality of Serbia. Should we rename it to “Slavs in Raška” or so?
 * 1) Sources have been deleted by former user Miki Filigranski (e. g., , , ).
 * 2) The merger is not appropriate because Pannonian Slavs or Slavs in Lower Pannonia are terms too wide to describe not a tribe or nation, but a COUNTRY (either duchy or principality, where people known today as Croats used to live). The “Pannonian Slavs” is a term appropriate for describing a tribe, group of tribes or nation. On the contrary, this term is NOT appropriate for describing a COUNTRY, either it is called Duchy of Pannonian Croatia or Principality of Lower Pannonia (or using another similar title, because medieval sources are not unique). It’s a big difference.

So, if anybody mergers or renames such articles, he must think about that they should be more accurate and more specific. Otherwise, such a wide, generalized, imprecise, maybe even misleading, “conglomerate” article cannot be acceptable. Let the article “Slavs in Lower Pannonia” talk about Slavic people in (lower or whole) medieval Pannonia and the “Duchy of Pannonian Croatia” or “Principality of Lower Pannonia” about the country. -- Silve  rije  22:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC)