Talk:Duke Nukem 3D/Archive 2

humor
What about mentioning the "chew gum" line, that one stands in my head the most from playing years ago. Maybe another article with quotes would be good?


 * You could always try Wikiquote. Other videogames are quite well represented there.  Cheers, --Plumbago 13:35, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

The Copyright problem with HRP
'''Note: This talk is too dull to read. You can directly read the two boxed final rundowns for the conclusions of TerminX (claim HRP is clear) and Inlandsis (claims the HRP has copyright infringements)'''

Let's analyze one issue at a time.

Issue #1

When adding or changing articles, there is a reminder we see under any circumstance, possibly the most important one on Wikipedia: "Content must not violate any copyright and must be verifiable".

I could listen to a Madonna's song and recreate the rhythm by changing the instruments and without using the official scores. Could I claim my new tune and score are free under GNU and post a link to it on Wikipedia? I could look at Yoda pictures from the Star Wars movies and recreate a better Yoda, in 3D with very accurate texture and claim my Yoda data are GNU and post it for free download and use on Wikipedia. Would it be legal? Of course not. Arts and data are usually fully protected.

That's exactly what happens with the HRP pack. "The Duke Nukem 3D High Resolution Pack -- Art and models to enhance your play experience" linked in the Duke Nukem 3D page. Duke Nukem data are not free. Only the source code is. Sure 3Drealms can't give away their rights on the Duke3D characters for an obvious reason: this would prevent the company from doing any further business with the Duke Nukem characters, like the Duke3D movie they are going to produce.

Citation from the Duke3D's free source code license:

"The code is licensed under the terms of the GPL (gnu public license). You should read the entire license (filename "GNU.TXT" in this archive), so you understand your rights and what you can and cannot do with the source code from this release. All of the Duke Nukem 3D data files remain copyrighted and licensed by 3D Realms under the original terms.  You cannot redistribute our data or data files from the original game..[...]"

So it is completely illegal to copy or distribute the HRP pack. 3Drealms must release all their rights on the Duke Nukem data’s for the HRP to be legal. Inlandsis 03:17, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * That's all well and good, but nothing in the HRP is a "Duke Nukem 3D data file" or "data or data files from the original game." The problem here is that much like with your other "arguments" (which have been shot down in one way or another on your talk page), you're failing to understand the specific circumstances in question.  In reality, everything in the HRP was created from scratch and a huge point was made to make sure nothing in the HRP was actually based on data found in Duke3D.


 * Furthermore, your quoted bit of the Wikipedia policy is for content that is actually in the wiki -- even if the HRP was "illegal," which it isn't, there would be nothing wrong with linking it. As such, the links to Parkar's HRP project return.  I'm also re-titling this section "The Inlandsis problem" because, strictly speaking, the problem isn't me adding valid information to the article (speaking of that, as I mentioned on your talk page, I didn't add the text in question... looks like another case of you failing to read page history; the text appears to have been added by 209.181.252.244, if you can't even direct your comments at the right individual in the midst of your edit war, why are you participating in one?), the problem is users who misinterpret text and start edit wars over things without having an understanding of the circumstances.  In this case, it would seem that this makes you the problem. TerminX 20:54, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * 3D Realms doesn't seem to have any problem with the posts to their forums informing people how and where to download the HRP. (eg here) Qutezuce 21:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Not only was the HRP created by collaboration on their forums in the first place (I should know, I moderate the forum in question on 3drealms.com), but some people working at 3DR even use the HRP themselves.  For the record, my policy on using 3DR's copyrighted data has been "use original resources, get banned" since the inception of the HRP. TerminX 22:51, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

--- Hey (TeminX, Qutezuce), I see what you don't understand. It's not the data or the goods that have copyrights. A Copyright applies to an idea, to a concept. You feel the difference? Here is the correct definition, from Wikipedia:

Copyright (international symbol: ©) is a set of exclusive rights granted by governments to regulate the use of a particular expression of an idea or information.

Do you now understand the (C) does apply to the expression of an idea and not to the data? Can you claim the HRP is not a copy of the original data in this sense? If so then show us the difference between the 2 sets of data: HRP (claimed as GNU) vs GRP (created by 3DR) packs. If Wikipedia get sued by 3Drealms, these are the arguments attorneys will use against us: the data of the HRP is a pure and very accurate copy of the original data in the slightest details. Period. I don't care if 3D helped or is even distributing it. What matters is the written license and for now the HRP goes against this license and rights. So fix the licence: either HRP ic (c) to 3DR and it can not be distributed and used or 3DR gives up all their rights on the data.

This is how copyrights protect artists. If the Copyrights were only applying to the physical data, then all the music would be free. You could just take any album and imitate it and even sell it and get money. For now these HRP data seem quite innocent heh? Do you know what will happen once the 3DR movie is released? 3DR will get their rights on all the Duke3d characters everywhere, on McDonalds glasses, statues, posters... Then 3DR will start hunting against illegal copies of the duke3d characters, and against the HRP.

About 3DR using the HRP, it's their rights. Have you read their (very aggressive and smart) contract when you sign up for an account? You said you were the admin there, correct? Here it is, read it again:

''NOTICE: By submitting (e.g., uploading) Content to the 3D Realms Message Board, you automatically grant 3D Realms the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive and fully sub licensable right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such Content (in whole or part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed. ''

That's even worst for the HRP. I don't know why all those guys are working on such a forum. You should leave and get free forums instead of working freely for companies. Companies are like countries: they have no friends, they have shared interests only. You will understand better when you get more life's experience. That’s why we have to protect Wikipedia.

Regarding 209.181.252.244, he published 1 hour after you on the same topic as you, he added the 3dr forums link you are administrating, then talked about HRP and Eduke you created. The only contribution of this IP is this article. I have no proof, but it's obvious who is behing 209.181.252.244. Self promotion is tolerated, but don't go too far. You are also extremely rude by putting your changes back before waiting for more people to give their advices. Btw, stop insulting me on my talk page. We can talk here. Thank you. Inlandsis 00:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course you have no proof; my IPs are in the 68.12x.x.x block and show up multiple times on the history page(you know, that one you keep failing to properly read?). It would appear you have some kind of a monopoly on false accusations and bull.  As for the bits on the 3DR rules page, it's amazing how many of you lawyer wannabes think it means 3DR owns everything posted on their forums down to linked files and offsite images displayed inline.  It doesn't.  It's a CYA clause so people can't sue 3DR for using an idea someone may post in one of their games.  That's all it has ever been, and that's all it will ever be.  By posting content on the 3DR boards, you are merely granting 3DR a very big exception to whatever license you as the copyright holder of the content choose to publish the content under. TerminX 09:08, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The truth of the matter is that 3D Realms allows the HRP to exist as long as A) All content is created from scratch as to prevent distribution of original source artwork, B) All direct character references are only used within Duke Nukem 3D and it's respective ports, and C) It is incompatible with an illegal copy of the game (missing the GRP/ART files). C is automatic simply because of how the entire system works. A and B have been squashed. 3D Realms (because of this) has given the HRP a mandate. And for the record, I am the one that posted the original info on ports, thank you. I thought it would be relevant information for those looking into updates for compatibility with newer operating systems, modifications, and multiplayer. Mblackwell 09:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The quote your produce directly contradicts what you said about copyrights applying to ideas, the quote says that they apply to "the particular expression of an idea".
 * 3D Realms would have a hard time sueing anyone who uses the HRP because they implicitly condoned it's usage by not banning and deleted posts about it on their forums.
 * Your suggestion that 3DR only has two options, to own the copyright or to lose all rights to the material is false. They can maintain their copyright while still granting users extra abilities by using a license. This is how GPL works, if the original source code was not protected under copyright laws then anyone could do anything they wanted to the source code, the GPL license is irrelevant. But because the source code is copyright, users of it have the choice to either abide by the rules of copyright law or to abide by the terms of the GPL license. Qutezuce 00:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

So? Aren't the Duke 3D characters a particular expression of characters? Show me the GPL license as signed by 3DR. Some kids did it. 3RD has not signed. Do you realize that if 3DR were really to sign or create a GPL license then they will allow everybody to create copies of the true Duke3D and sell them? In this sense a GPL will force them to resign most of their rights. Then it will also void their own license for the 'data' and make the GRP implicitely GPL. It's very unlikely that a company that is about to make a movie will make its main hero GPL before producing the Duke3D movie and Duke Nukem For Ever. They could get in deep troubles. Now, please look again at the bottom of your text box. You see "Content must not violate any copyright and must be based on verifiable sources". I did a verification and I was not able to find any verifiable sources. A verifiable source is a GPL signed or written and approved by the copyright holders. That's what will be checked first in case of potential lawsuits Inlandsis 05:01, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I did not suggest that 3D Realms has licensed anything with the GPL, I was merely using the GPL as an example. Please read my comment more carefully. Qutezuce 05:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Btw, here is the license provided with Duke3D, this is the very first statement in their license:

THIS PROGRAM IS NOT SHAREWARE. DISTRIBUTING IT WITHOUT 3D REALMS' PERMISSION IS ILLEGAL. OWNERSHIP: Except to the extent expressly licensed by us, we have and reserve the exclusive copyright, trade secret and other rights to the Program, and the right to use the Trademarks "3D Realms", the 3D Realms "logo", "Duke Nukem", "Duke Nukem 3D" and any of the characters contained within the Game in connection with it.

The Copyright on the Program itself is made void since they released it under GNU. As they stated in their GNU license released with the source code the data are still *extremely* protected and they are still falling under the old license for all the obvious reasons that 3DR value is in the Duke3D characters. I won't remove the illegal link anymore since TerminX will immediately add it back immediately for his self promotion of eDuke32. You must understand that distributing the HRP is not only as illegal as distributing the Full GRP pack. It's even worst because HRP is claimed GPL and its content is in a format that can be directly exploited by forgers. Sh*t will happen when 3DR will start making big $$$ from the Duke Nukem theme again. Guaranteed. Inlandsis 04:23, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm done being civil. As usual, not a single word of yours appears to have any actual basis in reality.  Once again... I didn't add the link to the HRP, the HRP isn't my project, and the HRP has nothing to do with my project (other than the fact that my project will run the data).  Continuing this trend, I also did not add the section of the article relating to my port of the game (which you would have known by reading the author's comment on this very talk page).  This is not "self promotion," this is protection of valid content related to Duke3D from those like yourself who have your heads so far up where the sun doesn't shine that you can't seem to understand that, for the last time, 3D REALMS DOES NOT OWN THE HRP, OR ANYTHING IN IT, BECAUSE IT CONTAINS NONE OF THEIR DATA.  How many times must I say these things before they sink in?  Hopefully I won't need to repeat them yet again.  Furthermore, I'd also like to point out that a copyright doesn't magically vanish when source code is placed under the GPL as you incorrectly (I'm really starting to notice a trend with you and being incorrect) seem to think it does.  Do you even know what a license is?


 * Should I even go into how you first say copyrights apply only to ideas, then you say no, it's the data? You're full of contradictory bull; nothing more, nothing less.  At this point I honestly wouldn't be surprised in the least if you're some forum troll I've banned over the years having a hissy fit driven by a personal dislike of me.


 * Lastly, I believe your actions fall firmly under "blanking," a type of Wikipedia vandalism defined as "Removing all or large parts of articles". As you have repeatedly deleted entire sections of relevant data (this can quite easily be construed as "removing large parts of articles") with intentions that are clearly not to improve either the article itself or Wikipedia as a whole, I have placed a vandalism warning on your user talk page as according to Wikipedia policy.  I'm not going to have you further attempting to compromise a public source of data in this manner; if you continue to vandalize this article I'll have no choice but to find a Wikipedia admin to sort you out.  Your oddball ideas regarding how you seem to think copyright law works are NOT going to fly here.  It is not only inappropriate but extremely irresponsible to go around deleting valid portions of articles solely because you don't agree with them existing, and it is ESPECIALLY irresponsible to continue doing it when you have three separate people on the article's talk page basically saying you don't know what you're talking about. TerminX 13:58, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

So Mblackwell was behind 209.181.252.244. Please tell me: do you know each other? How many times a day you contact TerminX? I just want to see if I was right about terminx being behind 209.181.252.244 even indirectly. Then you said "The truth of the matter is that 3D Realms allows the..." Are you the copyright holder of the artwork to claim this? If not show me where it's written and signed by the copyright holders. Only the copyright holders can create / talk / change their license and rights. You won't be allowed to talk in their names during potential trials. Then you said "C) It is incompatible with an illegal copy of the game (missing the GRP/ART files).". Assume the copyright holders said that (which is probably not even true since I don't see it written). Then can you see the HRP is equivalent to the GRP from the content point of view? You can see the HRP as a reworked GRP as it contains the full artworks of the GRP, models, textures and everything. If the GRP is strictly prohibited for copy so is the HRP because GRP=HRP. In fact you could just change a little bit the Duke's code and allow it running with the HRP only, without GRP. You could even create a new game using the HRP. TerminX said it by himself in the forums about other people using duke HRP for other games: "it's GPL so everybody can use it". This shows how you guys don't pay attention of the meaning of copyrights. You are only innocent minds. It doesn't mean you are bad, you are not pirates of course.

TerminX said "3D REALMS DOES NOT OWN THE HRP, OR ANYTHING IN IT, BECAUSE IT CONTAINS NONE OF THEIR DATA." Please cool down. No. Here HRP screen shots you see the HRP is a pure and exact copy of all the original art works. You can not claim it's GPL or doesn't belong to 3D Realms. It doesn't matter how the copy was done, either from scratch or not. It's not because you have created a hero - Yoda, Spiderman or Duke! - from scratch that they do not belong to the copyright holders anymore. What matters is the accuracy of the copy of the artworks. I have already explained your problem: you are thinking a Copyright applies to the physical data. It's wrong; it applies to the artworks by definition which will indirectly protect all the physical data. Read again the definition of Copyright I have posted for you. The HRP is fully copyrighted by 3DRrealms. Thus, its distribution is prohibited and its usage is very restricted. Only usage tolerated on Wikipedia -but only tolerated- is a screenshot of the Artworks. Not more. This is because Jimmy Walles who created the Wikimedia is also a U.S. Copyright Office in Washington D.C. Designated agent. We are so lucky! He managed to make those screen shots almost legal. But don't ask him too much, he can't abuse of the Office.

Only way to have a copyrighted material at home, under any form, is to pay royalties to the copyright holders. TerminX said "HRP isn't my project". I know. But you are the one who keep adding it back. Btw, treating people of "vandals" like you are good and all right doesn't give you more credit. Don’t take it personally, you are not a pirate, you are surely a good person but we need to clear Wikipedia. As you, I wish copyrights never existed, I think the true value is in the GPL/GNU. But we can't afford mistakes for the GPL,GFDL etc .. content to be effective. Correct? Here is how you can really help: try 3DR to give the Duke's characters/texture and arts a license that allows us to copy and distribute their original characters freely. It's gonna be tricky because this is equivalent to ask them the give us the GRP free for use and copy. It will take skills to deal with them, but you seem smart. Either they give us something or we stay illegal but we have nothing to lose at this point. Thank you for your help. Inlandsis 18:42, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Let's just write this one off as agree to disagree then. I firmly believe the HRP is legal, due to the fact that is NOT a GRP file and it does NOT contain ANY of the data found in Duke3D's GRP file, nor does it contain data that will run with Duke3D without the GRP file.  Everything in the HRP is merely influenced by the appearance of the original data; it isn't based on 3DR's data and in no cases it it an exact copy.  Think of it as seeing a 2" x 2" drawing and then drawing your own representation of said drawing big enough to fill most of an 8" x 11" piece of paper.


 * It would also appear that you have some further misconceptions about what the HRP is/does. I should clarify that you can use the HRP to make your own game only if you also make your own underlying 8 bit artwork files and if you also make your own maps (read: create your own data to be used in place of that of 3DR); this is legal.  Alone, the HRP is nothing but a set of images designed specifically in a way as to not infringe on 3DR's copyright (to be fair, there is one tile that they do own; however, we received personal permission to use it from 3DR owner George Broussard).  You need to understand that everything in the HRP is nothing more than an artist's interpretation of what a bunch of art that isn't even 128x128px may have looked like in a higher resolution and higher bit depth.  Simply put, it is impossible to use it in conjunction with Duke3D without having the contents of the GRP (or without creating the contents yourself).

inspired by character sprites which were an average size of ~60x80px. It is impossible for you to claim the HRP is somehow equal to the GRP because it simply is not. You have also said this: "you are thinking a Copyright applies to the physical    data. It's wrong; it applies to the artworks by definition which will indirectly protect all the physical data." That sounds correct. However, while 3DR's artwork is copyrighted (and thus so is the copy of the artwork in the GRP), nothing in the HRP (barring the exception which we were granted the right to use) is 3DR's artwork. Therefore, the data in the HRP is copyrighted by those who produced it: forum users, not 3DR. TerminX 21:22, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I outlined your final rundown (up) and I'm outlining mine (down) so people can decide better. This is what should be retained from our long talk.

Lloyd L. Rich is an attorney practicing publishing and intellectual property law. In his work on the Protection of Graphic Characters, he wrote: In the Warner Bros., Inc. v. American Broadcasting Cos the court noted that "in determining whether a character    in a second work infringes a cartoon character, courts have generally considered not only the visual resemblance     but also the totality of the characters' attributes and traits." In this sense the HRP is plagiarism of the IP of Duke Nukem 3D. HRP carries a double infringements on both the Trademarks (logos and signs) and Copyrights (tiles, characters, ambiance, style, objects    and textures). Copyright infringement is a crime in the US law and it is exposing the user to severe prosecutions. Although 3Drealms's Web Admin Joe Seigler failed to retain the exclusive rights by stopping the free distribution of 3DR's artworks and failed warning people, 3Drealms have not explicitly stated they are willing to share and/or abandon any right. 3DR Exclusive rights remain fully valid at that time. This is making the HRP strictly illegal for distribution. HRP provides most of the data of the game under convenient and standard formats that can be   used for various applications and goods. For this reason the GRP (original data of game) was made strictly illegal for free distribution even 10 years after the release of the game and after the free release of the source code. The HRP (enhanced datas created by fans) falls under the same license as the GRP from the IP point of view. To be    consistent, the HRP do and must have the same license as the GRP. One way to clear this case for 3Drealms is to   release the full GRP file which will in turn release the HRP and any upcoming Data pack using Duke Characters. Their is probably no value in the MAPs of the game and no value in the game itself. This issue is an IP issue only. Reference: |Dorothy J. Howell, Intellectual Properties and the Protection of Fictional Characters, 1990

Sincerely, Inlandsis 01:06, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Infoboxes
I've just removed some formatting re: the article's infoboxes. My feeling is that sandwiching article text between two infoboxes (the table of contents and the infobox proper) isn't a good idea. My suggestion is to reduce the number of entries that appear in the table of contents. The most straightforward way of doing this is to remove subsections, and replace the subsection headings with larger or bold text. That keeps the appearance of subsections but removes unnecessary entries in the TOC. If this sounds like a plan, I'll do it. Cheers, --Plumbago 17:34, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm in favour of leaving the subsections as they are. I don't think the TOC is too big or cluttered. Isn't the use of subsections in this article exactly the intended use of subsections? Qutezuce 20:52, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh the use of subsections is fine. I was just thinking that the TOC's possibly got too many of them.  The section on "Successors" has got a lot of little subsections in it that might be combined somewhat (or handled as I suggest above).  Anyway, as there appears to be an ongoing war in this particular section re: ports of DN3D, I'll wait a bit before changing anything.  --Plumbago 09:47, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Mega Drive port was legit
Someone edited to say the Mega Drive (Sega Genesis) port was an unauthorized hack. Actually, check the images in this site:, more precisely this image: It says:


 * (c) 1996, 1997 3D Realms Entertainment. All Rights Reserved. Published by SEGA under license of GT Interactive Software Corp. Distributed by Tec Toy.

Tec Toy is no hack. It had been Sega's exclusive representative in Brazil since the 8-bit days. They have translated several games to Portuguese, made some unique ports (Street Fighter II for the Master System, anyone?) and even developed a few original titles. They also make some other electronic products like DVD and MP3 players, and manage the brazilian servers for Ragnarok Online.

Clear enough now? Stormwatch 00:47, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * 3DR disagrees with you. TerminX 03:37, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Since it was licensed by the publisher (GT Interactive, now defunct), and it didn't see a wide release, such ignorance is not surprising. It would neither be surprising if GT had authorized Tec Toy but never bothered to tell 3D Realms - they also cheated Scavenger out of the payment for their games that they had published. Stormwatch 14:27, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I've emailed Tec Toy, asking if it was an authorized port. Their reply:


 * Dear sir,


 * Thank you for emailing our client support service. We inform you that it was fully authorized.


 * We remain available for any further information requests.


 * sac@tectoy.com.br
 * www.tectoy.com.br
 * Phone: (11) 3823-1717

For that, and the other aforementioned reasons, I assume the 3DR guy is the one who is mistaken. Stormwatch 20:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Demos & Screenshots
Does copyright prevent the distribution of screenshots or demos made from particular games of Duke Nukem? They are images from the game, but do not contain any of the code that generated them. (I.e. could I record a complete game of Duke Nukem and distribute it as a walkthrough?) oneismany 17:12, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * In theory yes for the screenshots. The problem is not the code but the copy of the artworks, under any form. It seems to be tolerated for screenshots though, as screenshots are not commercially exploitable from what I have read on Wiki, so don't worry :-) For demos I would say there is no copyright on it as there are no artworks in a demo and because you are the original creator of the demo. Makes sense? 132.203.107.212 14:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)