Talk:Dumbarton Castle

Film and Television
Has the castle appeared in many film and television productions? I came to this page after watching The 39 Steps (2008 film) but appearing in one film is enough to mention it in the article of that film but to mention that sort of thing here in this article it would need to mention a few appearances in different films or television programmes. -- Horkana (talk) 04:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The castle appeared in Gregory's Two Girls in 1999. The lead character climbs the hill and there is a discussion about how empty the River Clyde is today and how few ships go past. Rincewind42 (talk) 15:24, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

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Dumbarton Rock was not Caer Brithon or Alcluith
Dumbarton was not Alcluith[edit] and the Rock was not Caer Brithon Sorry I know this is a bit controversial but Dumbarton was not Bede's Alcluith - and the Rock was not Caer Brithon. Maryport in Cumbria was the likeliest place for Bede's Alcluith and Caer Brithon. The Dumbarton Rock theory is entirely dependant on Strathclyde being a Brythonic "Welsh kingdom" - but this was a late medieval/Tudor/Stewart era claim with extremely dubious and probably "invented" evidence. The archaeological evidence from the 6th century BC until the 1st century AD shows clear evidence of Irish settlement in the Solway-Clyde region as far north as Perth. This was clearly in line with Bede, Nennius etc. claim that the sequence of settlement was first Britons, then Picts and the Scots AND then Romans. The Scots would have settled in the Strathclyde region and this was a Scottish/Irish Gaelic "kingdom" rather than a Brythonic Kingdom. The evidence for this claim is contained in the book "The Evolution of the Picts" (also known as The Evolution of the Pictish legend) which is available on Amazon. There is a great deal of evidence in this publication but a few brief points can be summarised as follows. Dumbarton is in completely the wrong location, at the wrong time and with the wrong people - It sits on the River Leven and not the Clyde. and most importantly it is on the North side of the Firth of Clyde - Bede clearly indicates that Alcluith was on the South side of the Bay and the Scots occupied the North. The hill fort on Dumbarton Rock was a post Roman construction built in 5th/6th century AD, with no evidence of any earlier settlement. The Firth of Clyde where Dumbarton Rock is located, was not called the Firth of Clyde until the 17th century at the very earliest - it only starts to appear with a name in the late 16th century when it appears as the Firth of Dunbriton or Dumbreton. The Firth of Clyde was only linked to the Clota estuary of Ptolomey in 1607 on William Hole's map, but like the Novantum Promontory on the 1578 map by Bishop Leslie, he clearly put this in the wrong location, writing the name directly alongside the Kintyre coastline. There is no link between Dumbarton and the "Cluith" whatsoever.

Dumbarton's first appearance on any map was as early as 1360 in the Gough map when it was called Dombre Tayne. This changes the entymology of the name significantly - tayne is a gaelic word meaning cattle, spoil or plunder, while Dom has an obvious link to the tribe of the Dumnoni/Damnoni - who were linked to the Munster region of Ireland, which in turn was the original homeland of the Antrim Scots, before they migrated to Scotland. Dumbarton appears on several other early maps with a similar name, until 1578, when for the first time it appears as Dun Britain on Bishop John Leslie's map, but he had clearly moved the Novantum Promontory from Ptolomey's (2nd century AD) Geographia from Galloway up to the Kintyre peninsula - a peninsula that Ptolomey had actually called The Epidium Promontory. In other word Bishop Leslie deliberately created a northern Alcluith by doing 2 things - 1. moving the Novantum promontory north and changing the name of Dumbarton to fit. In 1583 Nicolas de Nicolaye, a Frenchman with his own independent sources - produced 86.173.235.194 (talk) 12:57, 13 June 2018 (UTC)his sea charts and called the town Dumbreton - a variant of the same name that appeared on the 1360 Gough map, so it is clear that the name was altered by Bishop Leslie in 1578 and he introduced the Dun Briton "fort of Britons" claim by "adjusting" the geography and changing place-names to suit. In 1250AD Matthew Paris constructed a map of Britain and did not give the name of the river flowing from the sea, past Glasgow as the Clyde - he called it the "River that became Clydesdale" and gave it a date of 1208. He named another river Clyde (or rather Clud) - fl clud - fluvius clud - river clyde, and located it in Cumbria at the end of Hadrian's wall.

The Roman Fort at Maryport formed the furthermost region of the Harian's wall defences and was constructed as early as the 1st century AD - so it meets the criteria of being an ancient fort, and being on the south side of the "Bay" and near the river clud named by Matthew Paris. Maryport was also known as Alauna in the Roman period - a Roman word indicating a harbour and which derives from the river Ellen - but ellen itself derives from the word Aln (Alauna) so may not be the original name, and clud itself probably means a crossing point. so Maryport, formerly Ellenfoot, formerly Alauna, was a harbour near a river where there was a crossing point, and Bede's nominis illus statement was not the river "of that name" but the river "named ill" - a river named Ellen. and petram cluith should have been portum cluith - the Harbour cluith.

There is very, very good evidence for Maryport being Bede's Alcluith. It's certainly got a far more substantial claim than Dumbarton. Maryport has evidence dating from the 1st century AD - 700 years before Bede even started writing - an analysis of Dumbarton proves it's "evidence" is highly dubious and only dates from the late 16th century - 700 years after Bede stopped writing.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daviefd (talk • contribs) 10:13, 9 June 2018 (UTC) Jump up ^ The Evolution of the Picts

Early Medieval Era
This section currently mentions that "By 870, it was home to a tightly packed British settlement, which served as a fortress and as the capital of Alt Clut. In 871, the Irish-based Viking kings Amlaíb and Ímar laid siege to Dumbarton Rock. The fortress fell in four months, after its water supply failed. The kings are recorded to have returned to Ireland with 200 ships and a host of British, English, and Pictish captives."

I don't know what the author means by a British settlement or by British and English captives. The use of British seems overly general, yet it is used in a way that differentiates between British, English and Pictish people. Also, England did not exist as an entity at the time. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the history of Dumbarton Castle to feel comfortable correcting that section, but perhaps the following would be more accurate, if less specific:

"By 870, it was home to a tightly packed settlement, which served as a fortress and as the capital of Alt Clut. In 871, the Irish-based Viking kings Amlaíb and Ímar laid siege to Dumbarton Rock. The fortress fell in four months, after its water supply failed and the kings are recorded to have returned to Ireland with 200 ships and a host of captives.