Talk:Dunajec River Gorge

Górale: mountaineers or highlanders?
The Polish word górale does not translate mountaineers. Mountaineers are alpinists, i.e. mountain climbers. The correct translation of górale is highlanders. I corrected the article accordingly. Freederick 18:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that mountaineering could also be seen as the profession of white-water rafting for tourism and therefore be equally appropriate here. Polish “górale” is not a profession nor an occupation. --Poeticbent  talk   18:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * According to Wikipedia "mountaineering is the sport, hobby or profession of walking, hiking and climbing up mountains… particularly in Europe."


 * Mountaineering is not really a profession either, but more of a hobby (although a professional mountain guide might be argued to be a “professional mountaineer”. And I disagree with your inclusion of white-water activities into mountaineering; raftsmen (Polish flisacy) are not really a category of mountain-climbers, whatever the semantic gymnastics.  On the other hand the description highlanders is accurate, since it is the local highlanders (Polish górale) who manned both the historical timber rafts and the modern tourist rafts.  The word “highlander” in this context is well established; see Gorals, Highlander.   The modern rafts, BTW, are made not of tree-trunks but of lightweight hollow troughs, to facilitate transporting them back upstream.  I was there a few years  ago, and floated on one. Freederick 19:41, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Your argument is hardly convincing. I was there like you were and can attest to the fact that mountaineers who are in charge of the rafts on Dunajec are professionals who have little to do with timber rafters (Polish flisacy). The fact that their canoes are made of lightweight hollow troughs is irrelevant. Please see Colorado Wilderness Institute for examples of professional trip organizers who "combine the best of outdoor adventure including backpacking, rock climbing, whitewater rafting, and alpine mountaineering into a unique trip..." If you believe that mountaineering is not really a profession than I suggest you argue your case there first. BTW - thank you for not engaging in an edit war over semantics. --Poeticbent   talk   21:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Professional or not, rafting is not part of mountaineering. As defined in the latter article, “[mountaineering is ] ... walking, hiking and climbing up mountains.”  Trip organizers, yes, but not mountaineers.
 * The closest synonym for mountaineer is alpinist. Surely this is not what the article means?
 * While undeniably (seasonal) pros, the Dunajec raft operators are Gorals and make an effort to promote that identity by wearing traditional Goral clothing. They are not necessarily mountaineers.  I believe that a link to Gorals is more relevant to the article than a link to mountaineering.
 * In the interest of a compromise, I found yet another word, mountainards, that may be applicable. I still think highlanders is preferable, as mountainards has the flavor of a hapax legomenon to me.
 * While the rafting activities on the Dunajec do not involve timber rafting at present, the historical origin of these trips is based on timber rafting that was practiced there in the past and gradually developed into a tourist attraction. It hardly matters whether one chooses to view the present-day vessels as canoes linked together into platforms, or as rafts.
 * The fact that traditional wooden rafts/canoes are used is certainly notable, as comparable activities elsewhere typically use inflatables. A suitable photo would add greatly to the article. Freederick 10:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I invite other editors opinions on this dilemma, so that consensus may be reached. Freederick 11:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Culture
Congrats to authors on this article being mentioned on the en.wiki main page. But, not to forget what I wanted to say: It would be nice, if the article also mentioned, that Dunajec is in fact a border river and that there are also Slovak Gorals riding those boats with tourists. ShapedNoise 21:10, 23 Feb 2007 (UTC)
 * I concur. Note, however, that the article as it stands now has no links whatsoever to Gorals or local culture, Polish, Slovak, or otherwise; a regrettable circumstance that I am with some difficulty attempting to change (see above). Freederick 10:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Górale or seasonal business owners and operators?
I wonder, whether "local operators" (instead of "local mountaineers") would be more amiable, even though the more I think about it the stranger it sounds? The tourist guides are unquestionably mountaineers and highlanders at the same time. Theirs, is not an easy profession, with expert knowledge passed on through generations of men. The historical aspect of their craft is of the essence here (as per the opening line on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column).

Following are the two recreational amenities usually spoken of in one sentence all over the Internet: hiking and whitewater rafting. The sources I looked at were mostly North American with no relation to highlanders as an ethnic group. However, all of them were featured under mountaineering. The only thing that worries me is that the Polish meaning of Gorals (or Gorale) is not notable enough in English to be understood without confusion in this loosely connected context of a seasonal profession. Perhaps Gorale should be mentioned under See also, at the bottom of the page. --Poeticbent  talk   23:17, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Art LaPella
I was invited here because I'm American. Sorry Poeticbent, but I would prefer "Goral highlanders". Your own definition of "mountaineer" mentions mountains but not rivers. "Mountaineer" is simply a form of the word "mountain", as "charioteer" is a form of the word "chariot". You said "hiking and whitewater rafting...all of them were featured under mountaineering." I didn't understand that at all - the mountaineering article doesn't mention rivers or rafting even once. Here's a better link to the Colorado Wilderness Institute example:. It doesn't say that rafting is mountaineering. It says they offer both rafting and mountaineering. The word "mountaineer" makes me think first of "The Mountaineers" in my neighborhood. Click "Courses and Activities" near the top, to see what they do. Mostly they do things in the mountains. They also go in rivers (click "Whitewater Kayaking"), but they also go in Puget Sound, an arm of the Pacific Ocean and surely no mountain (click "Sea Kayaking" and "Sailing"). You will often find these activities together, because whitewater rafting often requires mountains to make the river steep, and someone who enjoys nature will often enjoy mountains, rivers, oceans, deserts etc.

"Highlander" makes me think first of Scottish Highlanders who live in high land, and Gorals apparently do the same. I've never heard of a "mountainard" - Googling the word  shows misspellings of Montagnard. "local operator" would be correct, but I don't understand the objection to further identifying the operators as Gorals and highlanders. You are correct that Americans don't know who the Gorals are, but the context of an unfamiliar word qualifying "highlanders" makes it likely that the unfamiliar word refers to an ethnic group, and anyone who wants to read more about the Gorals can click the link. Compare this randomly chosen example from Burundi: "The earliest inhabitants of the area were the Twa...", without first explaining who the Twa are - if you want to know more, click the link. Art LaPella 04:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the input. I'm changing "local mountaineers" to "Goral highlanders" as per your suggestion. --Poeticbent  talk   06:30, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for resolving the matter in so gentlemanly a fashion :-)
 * I found a relevant photo on the 'commons that I added to the article. Hope you like it. Freederick 12:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

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Name
While Dunajec Gorge is shorter, and Dunajec Canyon is also used, Dunajec River Gorge is used by UNESCO:. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:42, 7 May 2019 (UTC)