Talk:Dunmanway killings/Archive 1

Categorise this subject
Can anyone help. I don't know how to categorise this subject. I know how to categorise a person, but not an historical incident.

Thanks Lisa Irwin 22:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I gave you a few, please check and ensure they are correct. -- Armadillo From Hell 23:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Article name
I would like to know who invented the title "Dunmanway Massacre". This phrase, on an examination of the facts, is not the case. Only three of the victims mentioned in the article were killed in Dunmanway - the remainder lived several miles away. - JohnM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.213.39.10 (talk • contribs) 10:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * What name do you suggest the article should be called?--Vintagekits 10:56, 15 April 2007 (UT

The article should be titled in a more accurate way i.e. Cork, West Cork. The present title plays into the hands of those who claim that there are so many inaccuracies in Wikipedia as to render it useless as a tool of reference.

JohnM

> > > > I write with reference to the following article > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunmanway_Massacre. This title is > misleading and even slanderous and there is a factual error in it. > The title gives the impression that the murders were committed in > Dunmanway. If you read the article you will find that of the 13 > victims (not 10 as mentioned), three were killed in the town of > Dunmanway > > > > David Gray Dunmanway > > Francis Fitzmaurice Dunmanway > > James Buttimer Dunmanway > > > > The remainder > > > > Thomas Hornibrook Bandon 27 kms > > Samuel Hornibrook Bandon ditto > > Samuel Woods Bandon ditto > > Robert Howe Ballaghamine 12 kms > > John Cheminey Ballaghamine ditto > > Alexander McKinley Ballineen 11 kms > > John Buttimer Caher 8 kms > > Robert Harbord Caher ditto > > Robert Nagle Clonakilty 20 kms > > John Bradford Killowen 21 kms > > > > I believe the article should be entitled something like The > Protestant Massacre or West Cork Massacre. The present title is > erroneous and gives credence to the people who preach that Wikipedia > is not a dependable source of information. Incidentally I have > attempted to edit the entry but it is always changed. It is the same > with the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunmanway, where the > name of the murdered priest was not Father Magnier but Canon Magner > (go into the cemetery in front of St Patrick's Church and his tomb is > hallways along on the left hand side.

> > > > Yours sincerely > > > > > > John Murphy > > Le Vinaigre > > 24560 Bouniagues > > France > >


 * There is nothing slanderous in this article, perhaps you could explain who you believe is being slandered?


 * I assume you are referring to this edit. The name in the lead has to reflect the name of the article, therefore it stays as "Dunmanway Massacre" unless the page name is changed as well. Your attempt to introduce an unsourced claim of 13 victims was correctly reverted, according to the article the victims were:


 * 1) David Gray
 * 2) Francis Fitzmaurice
 * 3) James Buttimer
 * 4) Robert Howe
 * 5) John Chinnery
 * 6) Alexander McKinley
 * 7) Robert Harbord
 * 8) John Buttimer
 * 9) Jim Greenfield
 * 10) John Bradfield
 * Robert Nagle is not named as being killed merely shot, so that equals 10 not the figure of 13 you attempted to introduce into the article. One Night In Hackney 303 08:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Where are the Hornibrooks and Woods "Capt Woods, Thomas Hornibrook and his son Samuel went missing, unaccounted for, and in time presumed killed" If these killings took place in the same week (see article) why are they not included?


 * See this article from The New Statesmen, which gives the figure of ten and the name "Dunmanway massacre". Ten is the confirmed number, although we can include the information about the others it's only speculation, for all we know they could have (as the Wolfe Tones would put it) "like lightning ran from the rifles of the IRA". One Night In Hackney 303 08:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Although I read The New Statesman each week, I am afraid that i give it as much credence in some of its articles of as I do to The Daily Mail, when writing about Tony Blair. Witness to apology to the lastest John Pilger article. My objection to the article on the Dunmanway massacres is not that Protestants were murdered but that it happened in the Dunmanway area. This, in my opinion, is geographically inaccurate. Incidentally an article in The Sunday Independent last summer (google it) focussed on the Bandon murders. JM


 * The lead makes it quite clear that it happened in the general area, not in Dunmanway itself. The article is not geographically inaccurate, as it uses a sourced term for the name in a similar way to the Hungerford massacre article. Perhaps this should be changed to "Massacre in and around Dunmanway" and that should be changed "Massacre in and around Hungerford"? One Night In Hackney 303 07:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Clarity on 'spying'
I think we need to get the order of events right. The men killed were not spies in April 1922 but some might have been up to July 1921.

1. The IRA were ordered by Southern Command HQ to kill any spies up to noon on 11 July when the Truce came into effect.

2. Thereafter any spies were to be detained and tried. None were, as the British were leaving.

2. Subsequently during the Truce the IRA found evidence that some of the men killed had been hostile to them before July 1921 (as happens in wars).

3. The Treaty was ratified by Jan 1922 (for good or bad). While the R.I.C. were being disbanded in 1922, the IRA were the de facto police force.

4. The raid and killings centered on the Hornibrooks / Dunmanway happened in April 1922, when none of them could still have been spying.

5. Once the matter was over, the IRA justified their actions by calling the men spies.

6. Given the tensions and run-up to the Civil war, nobody was ever charged.

Any better suggestions before I tidy up? I have a source that Daniel Corkery ended up living in the Hornibrooks' house - so perhaps it wasn't burned.Red Hurley 16:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Auxiliaries' intelligence documents
Does anyone know where these are today? I can't find a reference or a chain of possession from 1922. If they don't exist, then quoting from them may have been a convenient form of coverup.Red Hurley 15:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Dispute at List of events named massacres
A minor edit war is taking place as to whether to include this event in the above list article. I have temporarily removed the listing, due to the fact that the list requires multiple reliable sources and the adding editor only provided one. Discussion of this removal (and of the entry in general) should take place at: Talk:List of events named massacres. Blueboar (talk) 14:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The editor trying to add it is also a sockpuppet of a banned editor, and the info being added is incorrect. One Night In Hackney  303  14:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

"Central part"?
"The killings at Dunmanway led historian Peter Hart to conclude that sectarian conflict between Catholics and Protestants was a central part of Ireland's war of independence - his findings have been challenged and contradicted by Meda Ryan (2003), Brian Murphy (2006), and John Borgonovo (2007)."

Hart argues (as I read him) that sectarianism was an element; can someone cleverer than me quote where he said it was a "central part" in the war? Otherwise I'll adjust that at some point.86.42.192.24 (talk) 12:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)