Talk:Dunsmore

Dunsmore (surname)
The Surname section is becoming too large for a disambiguation page and is obscuring the other use of Dunsmore as a place name. I propose that the content should be split out into a new Dunsmore (surname) article and the current section should merely note that it is a surname of Scottish origin with Celtic derivation and contain a link to the new article. - Scribble Monkey (talk) 13:46, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Objection to the suggestion that the Scottish Origin of the ancient name Dunsmore be religated to a surname page
The name Dunsmore is a matter of historical significance. It is not just a surname.

In fact, I challenge the attempt to disconnect the Fife name as the source of place names. By the way, there are numerous towns in North America that bear the name. As in England, the source of this name lies in Fife.

The name is a name of a place in Fife. The people living in Fife derived their surname from it. Written records describe both the place and the surname in use as early as the 12th century in Fife. The first written mention of the name in England is in 1628, when Charles I grants the Scottish name as a title to Francis Leigh, Baron Dunsmore. As Scribble Monkey points out, the place names in England are derived from the title Baron Dunsmore, and thus are derived from the ancient Fife name.

Dunsmore, by origin, is a Scottish name. I have given several very reliable references for this. I would appreciate it if you would stop deleting my posts.

As you so kindly have pointed out, in your earlier post, the use of the name Dunsmore in England derives from one Francis Leigh, who was granted the title Baron Dunsmore, in 1628AD by Charles I. Again, this was not Francis Leigh's name by birth, but a title conferred upon him for a allegience to Chales I, who was ultimately so unpopular that he was beheaded.

You have removed my reference for the circumstances under which Charles I granted this Scottish name to an Englishman. You seem determined to pick references from thin air, when a passing knowledge of history would suggest to you why Charles I would have known of this Scottish name.

The "Oxford Dictionary of Place Names", which you site as the reference for the name Dunsmore, has been critiqued for its numerous errors. This reference states that Dunsmore is an Anglo-Saxon name, which no historian or linguist would ever accept. Moreover, your first date for the use of the name in England is 1628AD. There are numerous references to both a family name and a place name for Dunmore in Scotland dating back to the 12th century. There are also numerous written records, in Fife, Scotland, showing that this name was spelt differently depending on the language it was recorded in: Dunmore and Dunmuir in Gaelic, Dundemore in French and Dunsmore, Dinsmore, Dunsmoor, and Dinsmoor in English.

Again, the earliest written references in Fife for the name date to the 12th century, fully five hundred years before its appearence in England. Moreover, it was clearly given as a title of rank to Francis Leigh, from Charles I. As Charles I was descended from Scots, specifically Mary, Queen of Scots, he would certainly have been familiar with the prestigious name Dunsmore, derived from the Dunsmore family of great antiquity, as described in "Lindores Abbey and its burgh of Newburgh."

In short, the single dubious reference you have given (Oxford Dictionary of Place names) for the name Dunsmore is extraordinary weak, compared to the multiple sources for the Scottish origin of the name dating to a much earlier time.

A further point, which makes your claim that the Scottish name Dunsmore is *not* the source of English place names is the fact that virtually all descendants and geneologies bearing the surname Dunsmore, Dunsmuir, Dinsmoor, Dinsmore, Dunmore and Dunmuir document that they are from county Berwick, county Fife, Glasgow, and Dundee, in Lowland Scotland. Direct father to son geneologies trace their Dunsmore ancestry to Lowland Scotland and predate 1628 by several centuries.

Therefore, Dunsmore is both a surname and a placename, with the origin of the name belonging in Fife. The name may have been borrowed by others, but the origin of the name lies in Fife, Scotland.

Finally, archaeological evidence on the Isle of May and other locations suggests that the name has been in use in Fife since at least the late Bronze Age.

Please do your research and stop deleting my posts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Castlebythesea (talk • contribs) 22:48, 17 June 2011 (UTC)


 * In answer to several of your points, in no particular order.


 * the name Dunsmore in England derives from one Francis Leigh, who was granted the title Baron Dunsmore, in 1628AD - No as I stated the title "Dunsmore in Warwickshire is also the source of the title Baron Dunsmore", i.e. the title was derived from the place, which is the usual case, rather than the other way around.


 * The first written mention of the name in England is in 1628 - This is not the case. 1628 was the year that the title Baron of Dunsmore was granted, but the place name was mentioned far earlier. Here is one from 1282


 * You have removed my reference for the circumstances under which Charles I granted this Scottish name to an Englishman - You provided a general reference to that period {BBC Special "A History of Scotland - God's Chosen People."}. It did not support your assertion that Charles I conferred a Scottish title on Francis Leigh.


 * The "Oxford Dictionary of Place Names", which you site as the reference for the name Dunsmore, has been critiqued for its numerous errors. This reference states that Dunsmore is an Anglo-Saxon name, which no historian or linguist would ever accept - Provide a link to a reputable source that refutes this reference before you delete it again.


 * [Baron Dunsmore] was clearly given as a title of rank to Francis Leigh, from Charles I - this is original research unless you can provide reliable references to support it.


 * Dunsmore is both a surname and a placename, with the origin of the name belonging in Fife. The name may have been borrowed by others, but the origin of the name lies in Fife, Scotland. - Lee is a place name, forename and surname across the world. Do you suggest that Lee has only one origin too? The name Dunsmore has arisen independently in both Scotland and England, although the pronunciation and spelling may have become standardised.


 * Please do your research and stop deleting my posts - I have done and I reverted your deletion of the "Oxford Dictionary of Place Names" reference. This page was originally a disambiguation page for English place names, but you seem to be intent on expunging that information.


 * I stand by my original proposal to split out the surname information and to retain this article as a disambiguation page, which summarises the origin of the name in both England and Scotland. - Scribble Monkey (talk) 23:46, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Replies
The title "Dunsmore in Warwickshire is also the source of the title Baron Dunsmore", i.e. the title was derived from the place, which is the usual case, rather than the other way around.

See "A genealogical history of dormant, abeyant, forfeited and extinct peerages of the British Empire", p. 319: "(Sir) FRANCIS LEIGH, of Newnham, who was created a baronet, 24 December, 1618, and was ten years later elevated to the peerage at BARON DUNSMORE, of Dunsmore, co. Warwick, by letters patent, dated 31 July, 1628." "Lord Dunsmore having distinguished by his zeal in the royal cause during the civil wars, was advanced 3 July, 1644, to the EARLDOM OF CHICHESTER. . ." One cannot be raised to the peerage without the consent of the King. Presumeable, since Francis Leigh was "raised to the peerage" during the reign of Charles I, it is Charles I who approved his title. It is not clear in this document as to whether the name Dunsmore was taken from the town name, or if the town and the title were both named Dunsmore at this time.


 * It is not clear in this document as to whether the name Dunsmore was taken from the town name, or if the town and the title were both named Dunsmore at this time.


 * There are references to the town name prior to the title and it would be wholly exceptional for a town to be renamed as part of the granting of a title. If you have any references for this instance in particular, or indeed hjfor any other instance of this in general, please share them. - Scribble Monkey (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

'''The first written mention of the name in England is in 1628 - This is not the case. 1628 was the year that the title Baron of Dunsmore was granted, but the place name was mentioned far earlier. Here is one from 1282.'''

Again, there are numerous official documents in Fife, including the definitive document, the Ragman Rolls, that show that Dunmore was in widespread use in Fife one hundred years prior to 1282. Additionally, your reference is public record, not a definitive document. Furthermore, the earliest resident of Stretton-on-Dunsmore is one Roger de Montgomery who in 1060 is recorded as having descendants in Ayrshire, Scotland. The history of the Montgomery family is intimately tied to the history of Scotland, so there again, the Scottish name Dunsmore could have been conferred on the town of Stretton-on-Dunsmore through the Montgomery family.


 * The fact that the name may have been recorded in Fife before its use in England is debatable, but also totally irrelevant. You still have to prove that they did not independently arise, which you have not done. I do not understand what you mean by "your reference is public record, not a definitive document" as it is a public record of a definitive document. Your claims regarding Roger de Montgomery are not remotely supported by the reference you give, so perhaps you could provide further references that clearly demonstrate your points. - Scribble Monkey (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

It did not support your assertion that Charles I conferred a Scottish title on Francis Leigh.

Again, peerages are conferred by Kings. Given the dates, Francis Leigh had to be raised to the peerage by Charles I.


 * My point was that is was not a Scottish tile, rather that it was an English title, which all the sources I have read support. If you have any evidence to support your suggestion that Charles I deliberately used a Scottish name, rather than the name of the area of Warwickshire where Francis Leigh lived, even though they were the same name, please publish it. - Scribble Monkey (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

'''The "Oxford Dictionary of Place Names", which you site as the reference for the name Dunsmore, has been critiqued for its numerous errors. This reference states that Dunsmore is an Anglo-Saxon name, which no historian or linguist would ever accept - Provide a link to a reputable source that refutes this reference before you delete it again.'''

With the exception of this one very brief reference that you give, without edition or year, there are virtually no references to the name Dunsmore or Dunmore as an Anglo Saxon name. Geneologies overwhelmingly indicate that the name Dunmore was in common use as a place name and family name in Fife, where Scots Gaelic was the common language until approximately four hundred years ago. Additionally, Scots names abound with the prefix Dun, meaning fortification. Scots names with this prefix include Dunbar, Dunsinane, Dunadd, Dunkirk, Dundee, Dundas, Dunfermline, Dunford, Dunrobin, Dunvegan, etc. All of these names are associated with fortifications, as the name Dun means fortification in Celtic languages.


 * I have updated the reference, as you requested. - Scribble Monkey (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

The Scottish references I have given for Dunmore, Dunsmuir, Dunsmore and Dundemore, include:

1. Chartulary of Lindores and its burgh of Newburgh, pp. 433-435

2. Ragman Rolls

3. The Proto-Celtic lexicon:  http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/ProtoCelticEnglishWordlist.pdf

4. Reference for the Gaelic word Dun


 * The only reference to Dunsmore here is Dunsmore, Buckinghamshire. Please provide the latitude and longitude of Dunsmore in Fife, as I am having difficulty locating it on a map. - Scribble Monkey (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

5. See also:  Dunmore[Baron Dunsmore], Dunsmuir


 * That would be Dunmore or Dunsmuir - clearly not Dunsmore. - Scribble Monkey (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Therefore, the evidence for a Scots Gaelic origin of the name Dunsmore vastly outweigh the single dubious reference that you present for it having an Anglo-Saxon origin. By the way, please indicate the date and edition of the Oxford Placenames reference you are using, so that I can check it at the library.


 * Even assuming your claim that the evidence of a Scots Gaelic origin of the name is better documented, that does not prove that all other uses of the name derive from that. You have not provided a single independent source to support that assertion. - Scribble Monkey (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

The name Dunsmore has arisen independently in both Scotland and England, although the pronunciation and spelling may have become standardised.

As described above, the weight of evidence overwhelmingly indicates that Dunsmore and Dunmore are of Celtic origin, in Scotland, not Anglo-Saxon origin, and not in England.

I stand by my original proposal to split out the surname information and to retain this article as a disambiguation page, which summarises the origin of the name in both England and Scotland.

I do not support this position. Dunsmore is an ancient, historic name, of Scottish origin, as the evidence indicates. It is both a place name and the name of an ancient and still extant family, of Scottish origin. It is unconscionable that the history of the name should be relegated to a surname page.

Additionally, your assertion that the name, either of families or of place, is of Anglo Saxon origin is not supported by the weight of evidence.


 * I disagree. You obviously believe that, but you have spectacularly failed to provide any evidence to support your assertions. In the absence of any evidence to support a link between the Scottish and English names I stand by my proposal to separate the articles and will vigorously pursue that course of action. - Scribble Monkey (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

--69.109.209.153 (talk) 03:43, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Single independent source regarding Dun mor
'''Even assuming your claim that the evidence of a Scots Gaelic origin of the name is better documented, that does not prove that all other uses of the name derive from that. You have not provided a single independent source to support that assertion. - Scribble Monkey (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)'''

My reply:

In addition to the numerous references I have already posted, I have corrected your assertion that Dunsmore as in use in England is of 'Anglo-Saxon' origin. The Oxford Dictionary of British Placenames does not state that.


 * Your numerous references do not prove that the origin of the Dunsmore name in England is Scottish. You may have demonstrated that the name was used in Scotland from an early time, but you have provided no proof that that was the origin of the English usage. Scribble Monkey (talk) 22:09, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Additionally, it states that the name Dun mor retains the meaning of a fortification, as it would in a Brythonic language. Brythonic is in the family of Celtic languages. I have numerous references which show the evolution of the name Dun mor into its various spellings. I intend to update the Scottish section with these references.


 * The entry reads "Dunsmore (Dunesmore 12th cent.) is an old district name meaning ‘moor of a man called Dunn’, OE pers. name + mr.". I see no mention of it retaining the meaning of fortification. Please provide a source. Scribble Monkey (talk) 22:09, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

--Castlebythesea (talk) 21:47, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I am disappointed that you are unwilling to accept a compromise. Scribble Monkey (talk) 22:09, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Dunmore etymology
For the etymology of Dunmore, see Dunmore in the Oxford Dictionary of British place names. The dictionary states that Dunmore exists as a place name in Donegal, Galway and Waterford. It means 'Big fort'. The authors also spell the name in its Brythonic/Gaelic form as Dún Mór. The meaning of Dún, according to the Proto-Celtic lexicon I have referenced, is fort or fortification (see *dūno-, *dūnos-, dūnastu-). It retains this meaning across P-Celtic and Q-Celtic languages. The full conjugation of the noun Dún is given on the wiki page for Proto-Celtic language and is translated as "stronghold", not necessary "fort".

It is improbable that Dún would be used with a non-Celtic suffix. According to the Proto-Celtic lexicon, the suffix mori means sea. This may be the etymology of more in Dunsmore, rather than "big" suggested in the Oxford Dictionary of British Placenames. Perhaps the authors are not aware of the recent linguistic research on the roots of the Celtic Language.

Regarding the evolution from Dunmore to Dunsmore in Scotland, there are a number of reliable references which document the evolution of the name from Dunmore to Dunsmore. I will be adding these to the page under the Scottish portion, as time permits.

Given that the Oxford Dictionary of British Placenames indicates separate etymologies for the names Dunmore in Donegal, Waterford and Galway, and Dunsmore, as already noted, it is reasonable to proceed by separating the discussion of Dunsmore based on an origin from Proto-Celtic Dún Mór and another from Old English in the vicinity of Ryton-on-Dunsmore.

I have thus separated the two sections on this basis.

Proceeding on this factual basis, it would be appropriate to remove the request to split the article into a surname and placename discussion. The disambiguation flag should also be removed.

--Castlebythesea (talk) 23:46, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * As you have mentioned here and in the article, the name in Scotland and Ireland is Dunmore and Dunsmore appears to be an Anglicised variation. It is surprising, therefore, that you have not added your contributions to the Dunmore article and merely observed here that Dunsmore is a variant of that name. Scribble Monkey (talk) 17:17, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Interchangebility of the names Dunmore and Dunsmore
The word "Dun", meaning stronghold in Proto-Celtic, can be variously translated as "Dun" or "Dunus", depending on the case(declination) that is used.

The reference I have already given, "Lindores Abbey and its burgh of Newburgh: their history and annuls" by Alexander Laing, pp 433-435" states:

""Dunsmuir, more correctly Dunmore, [is found] in the parish of Abdie." "more" and "muir" were used interchangeably in Scottish spelling until several hundred years ago.

Ulster Scots took the name to Ireland.

I do intend to update the Dunmore article with this information, as well as well as all of the other alternative spellings, as time permits.

Most descendents of this Scottish family today carry the names Dunsmore and Dinsmore and for that reason, the Dunsmore wiki is an appropriate place to record this information.

--69.109.209.153 (talk) 21:04, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Please feel free to remove the request to split the article into a surname and placename discussion and to remove the disambiguation flag, as you suggest. You have argued your case articulately and persuasively and as long as the English use as a place name is not diminished or sidelined I am content with your proposed changes. Scribble Monkey (talk) 23:39, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree to this arrangement. It's been a pleasure talking with you. --Castlebythesea (talk) 18:14, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd like to know the source that "more" was a spelling in Scottish at anytime. I reject your reality and substiute my own. As was said it is extremely unlikely the name means "great fort". It is much more likely to mean "Sea fort", as in a fort on the edge of the sea. Perhaps on or near a cliff. But it disturbs me greatly to see in the article "Dunsmuir, more correctly Dunmore", as the first is at least entirely in a Celtic form, and the later an Anglicization. This article is riddled with issues like that. There is a heavy English slant to this article of an undeniably Celtic name. Also, "dun" does not mean "hill fort". It means 1) fort or 2)hill or heap. Celtic hackr (talk) 22:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)