Talk:Dutch angle

Origins
What are the origins of the expression? Why 'dutch'?

--Unclevortex 11:54, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The origins provided in the article are contrived and inaccurate. It would be better to relate to the Anglo-Dutch wars related derogatives for the Dutch used by the English. if nobody objects I will update this page.
 * Theking2 (talk) Theking2 (talk) 20:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * There are a few relevant comments below, and also recent changes of the article. Before you go ahead, you'll probably want to check them.
 * As often is the case in questions regarding the etymology of a term, there are few sources, they are often contradictory, and it's hard to tell which sources are reliable and on which other sources they are based.
 * I don't have access to the OED currently given as a source. I feel that the 'derogative' etymology makes more sense than the 'German' etymology, but I'm not sure. — Chrisahn (talk) 21:03, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * The relevant page says: "The technique was apparently introduced by German Expressionist film-makers: Dutch here is used to mean 'German'." This seems perfectly plausible to me, and certainly more plausible than the idea that the name has something to do with the Anglo-Dutch wars of the 1600s. "Dutch" continued to mean "German" in colloquial American English until relatively recently: see for example Pennsylvania Dutch, or, for a more low-brow example, the character of Dutch Schaefer in Predator. Zacwill (talk) 01:37, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Example, please!
It is in fact quite difficult to understand this article without a sample picture.

--Philopedia 12:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

This is a random example... http://www.thestar.com.my/archives/2004/4/24/features/f_pg02dutch.JPG

Maybe someone could take a photo like this and put it in public domain? I don't have a camera myself :(

--Unclevortex 01:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I uploaded a photo I took. It's not perfect, a bit blurry, but it'll do for now.

--Unclevortex 23:36, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

There is another article on the same exact angle, under the name Dutch camera angle.

-- Anonymous 19:33, 5 March 2006

DEFINITELY need some pictures here. Several examples, diagrams and photos. Shouldn't be difficult for someone who knows what they are (I'd do it myself, but I'm not quite sure) 86.185.191.230 (talk) 12:18, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Nearly 2013! Currently no illustration! Rather a necessity for this article. 94.193.126.239 (talk) 16:22, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

The angles were widely used in German cinema of the 30's and 40's, hence its name. - What? What do Germany and Holland have to do with each other? Or is it another case of mistranslated Deutsch, like with the Pensylvania Dutch?82.83.8.92 12:17, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Huh?
"A Dutch angle does not use the X, Y or Z axes, but rather an unconventional diagonal axis from which the camera shoots."

From a geometrical stand point, this is nonsense. What are the X, Y and Z axes? Left/right, up/down and forwards/backwards in a co-ordinate system defined by the orientation of the camera? If so, how can a camera "not use" them when filming at a Dutch angle? Perhaps this makes more sense:

"A Dutch angle is composed by an arbitrary rotation in the axis defined by the direction of the camera such that the horizon is no longer parallel with the top of the frame."

-- Anonymous 11:20, 6 June 2006 (GMT)

Dutch angles make the verticals no longer parallel to the side of the frame. Horizons are very often, perhaps even usually, not parallel to the top/bottom o the frame. Or does horizon here mean some conceptual horizontal instead of, say, the meeting of floor and wall in a room? --Doug vanderHoof, Oct 16, 2011

Spoiler?
Terry Gilliam has often used Dutch angles in his films, including The Fisher King, Twelve Monkeys, and Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, representing madness, disorientation from time travel, and drug psychosis respectively.

In the Twelve Monkeys you don't really know if it's disonrientarion from time travel or madness... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 189.5.136.36 (talk) 04:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

Batman TV show
The Batman (TV series) used tilted camera angles a lot, especially when they were fighting in the lair of one of the villians. AnonMoos 21:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd like some proof (citation needed?) that the angle sometimes actually is called "Batman angle", and if the example you gave is the reason for it. seriema 14:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The Third Man
"The 1949 film The Third Man makes extensive use of Dutch angle shots, to emphasize the main character's alienation in a foreign environment (and perhaps as a homage to co-star Orson Welles's own heavy use of unusual angles as a director)."

Unless anybody can offer evidence that the Dutch tilts in The Third Man are a tribute to Welles, I'm going to delete the parenthetical comment. Of all the techniques Welles used, Dutch tilts aren't typical, at least not before The Third Man. Reed, on the other hand, used them frequently throughout his career, before and after The Third Man. Amolad 23:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I say go for it. Uncited phrases like that are essentially OR. Girolamo Savonarola 05:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The Nightmare Before Christmas
"Dutch angles are frequently used by film directors who have a background in the visual arts, such as Tim Burton (in The Nightmare Before Christmas, and Ed Wood), and...."

Henry Selick directed The Nightmare Before Christmas, this sentence suggests it was Tim Burton. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.176.234 (talk) 22:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

"Tilt" vs. "Roll"
The word "tilt" is used by a camera crew to refer to tilting the cameral up or down, like nodding your head. "Roll" is what a dutch angle is, NOT "tilt". The camera rolls off to the side, so that the horizon is not quite horizontal. That is the correct terminology, AFAIK. (I'm a VFX guy, not a camera operator). Problem is, "roll" may be confusing to the general public. So do we use correct terminology or dumb it down for the masses? Since this is an encyclopedic article about cinematography, I say use correct terminology. "Roll" vs "Tilt". 24.211.96.160 (talk) 01:38, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Extensive use in anime
I'm surprised it’s not mentioned. It's frequently found in anime and manga when artists try to fit tall characters into wide frames. Not associated with insanity. E.g. see http://danbooru.donmai.us/wiki/show?title=dutch_angle Lormus (talk) 13:59, 30 January 2011 (UTC)


 * As someone also points out in the Talk topic Myspace angle (only to be slapped down), it's commonly found in selfies, too. And, unless we'd like to sneak in a sly comment about social media, the intention there can't be to illustrate or suggest madness, either.


 * Nuttyskin (talk) 23:23, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

"Myspace angle"
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=myspace%20angle Is it an example? Another commonplace usage for this technique, not associated with insanity. Lormus (talk) 14:12, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

No, see below. --79.193.58.68 (talk) 02:14, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Caligari still *NOT* a Dutch angle!
What you're showing with the Caligari still is a high-angle shot, not a Dutch angle-shot. A Dutch angle is defined by tilting your camera to the side so all horizontals and verticals become tilted. Look at the three people in the Caligari still, they're all standing upright, perfectly alligned and parallel to the sides of the picture.

Now, *THIS* is a Dutch angle: See how the clocktower is tilting to the left? That's what a Dutch aka tilted angle-shot is about: Vertical objects tilted left or right. --79.193.58.68 (talk) 02:14, 9 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The clocktower is the Tolbooth Steeple in Glasgow.


 * Nuttyskin (talk) 02:23, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Constructivism?
Not sure I know enough about this subject, but is there a constructivism or Alexander Rodchenko needed somewhere here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Da5nsy (talk • contribs) 19:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Passion of Joan of Arc
There is some early use of Dutch angles in The Passion of Joan of Arc 1928 silent film. Occurs at the 24min mark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.101.143.199 (talk) 14:46, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Monroe shot
Even though she's lying at an angle, the Monroe picture is *NOT* a Dutch angle shot, as the horizon is still horizontal. It's not defined by whether there's any angle in the picture, but by tilting the camera to the side so that the horizon is not horizontal anymore. In terms of shot terminology, the Monroe picture is a high-angle shot, not a Dutch angle. --2003:56:6D1B:C626:6D91:5A6E:8D2C:BBBE (talk) 19:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

use of Battlefield_earth_planetship.jpg
In the fair-use rationale for why Battlefield_earth_planetship.jpg is being used at dutch angle: "No free equivalent exists that would effectively identify the article's subject". I find it hard to believe that there's no free picture, as good as this one, that depicts a dutch angle.&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 21:30, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

It is not related to the Dutch people or language
Except Dutch and Deutsch have the same origin. Hence, the words are related. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:22, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The words themselves (and many others across several languages), are ultimately related; but the term "Dutch angle" is not called "Dutch" because it was invented by Dutchmen or is closely associated with Dutch film techniques. Vlaemink (talk) 11:15, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Disambiguation links
Following a revert of my edit adding "disambiguation need tags to Dutch wife and Double Dutch I was asked in an edit summary to elaborate here. Each term links to a disambiguation page. I presume from the text in brackets that Dutch wife should link to Sex doll, but we don't seem to have an article on gibberish on Double Dutch. They can be piped but need to link to an appropriate article so the reader gets to the relevant article for more information.&mdash; Rod talk 11:18, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Origins according to the OED
I boldly removed the paragraph saying the meaning comes from "Dutch as pejorative" and replaced it with one (with reference) saying it comes from German as the popularisers of the technique, which is the origin given at the Oxford English Dictionary. If there's an authorative film history which says otherwise, we should add it, with some kind of "origin is disputed" or similar wording.

In any case the paragraph about the origins was too long and irrelevant. The "pejorative Dutch from 17th century" meaning of "Dutch" is certainly real and interesting, but it doesn't seem to belong here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.19.3.149 (talk) 10:15, 12 June 2022 (UTC)