Talk:EDSA/Archive 1

A Template for EDSA and the revolutions?
I just thought that it might be a good idea since EDSA is not just a major road but a significant place in modern Philippine history.

EDSA

Tell me what you think guys. Feel free to add any other places/events which you think might be significant. æt 'ə' rnal ðrAعon  08:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Recent changes
The recent changes in the article is a response to the Road Article Structure of WikiProject Highways. The Intersection List, however, is referenced on a 1991-dated map. Please improve that section by placing up-to-date information. Please also add good images for the intersections of EDSA. Kj plma (talk) 04:18, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Combine the two tables
Please combine the two intersection tables and make them follow MOS:RJL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.84.162.233 (talk) 12:03, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Requested move (1)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved to EDSA (road). Disambiguation needed, since it's an acronym and a dab page now exists.  Mini  apolis  14:14, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Epifanio de los Santos Avenue → EDSA (if the road is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC) or EDSA (road) (if the road is not the primary topic) – Plainly put, "Epifanio de los Santos Avenue" has never been the most common name of this road, except probably before the first few weeks before someone came up with "EDSA". Even the street signs refer to "EDSA" and not "Epifanio de los Santos Ave." – H T  D  16:00, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This is clearly going to create a domino effect on related articles that will just tear this whole wikipedia apart. Acronyms are common in the Philippines i know but that doesn't mean they should take precedence over their official name, albeit longer and are lesser known. But that's exactly what wikipedia is for, to educate first and foremost. I'm telling you this would affect the articles on NLEX, SLEX, SCTEX, STAR Tollway, CAVITEX and maybe even extend to other places like GMA, Cavite, Gensan, ComVal and Igacos, Davao del Norte. I mean who knew the GMA that you see in street signs all over Cavite was actually General Mariano Alvarez? Gensan is starting to replace General Santos in common usage. And practically all the different media refers to Samal Island in Davao as Igacos now. It's sick. -RioHondo (talk) 18:58, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Heh. I saw that media report on "IGACOS" and if weren't for Wikipedia, I wouldn't know where/what that was. However, unlike, NLEX, SLEX, GenSan, ComVal and even the likes of CALABARZON and MIMAROPA, most people know what those mean; even the new "CAVITEX" screams "Cavite Expressway". In fact, for example, most news reports will say "North Luzon Expressway" somewhere at the start, then use "NLEX" the rest of the way, same for GMA Cavite (always "GMA Cavite", there are far too many GMAs). No worries on NLEX, SLEX, SCTEX, CAVITEX, GMA, Cavite, Gensan, and ComVal... but Igacos, Davao del Norte should really be Samal, Davao del Norte. "IGACOS" violates several laws in positioning (marketing) that is better served by using "Samal".
 * However, not too many people know what "STAR" in "STAR Tollway" means; I doubt people don't even realize it's an acronym! Same case for "TEAM Unity" (as opposed to "Team PNoy"), as "TEAM" supposedly meant for "Together Everybody Achieves More" but most people don't know that. This is not in the same case as "EDSA" (vs. STAR Tollway, as most people already know that "EDSA" stands for something, perhaps they even know what it means), but in most news reports, it doesn't start as "There's a 3-vehicle collision at the Epifanio de los Santos Avenue"; it's always "There's a 3-vehicle collision at EDSA".
 * Wikipedia is for educating people by reading the text, not by looking at the article title then moving on with their lives. Following WP:NC doesn't make anyone stupid: it's as if I get 0.1% stupider if I go to Bill Clinton instead of William Jefferson Clinton. – H T  D  19:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Some page view stats:
 * Generally, a redirect should only have a tiny percentage of page views (or in this case, page "hits") vs. the article it is directing to. About less than 10%. These stats (from the last 30 days) are very telling:


 * Almost a quarter of the people that reach this article were redirected from EDSA. That's a lot. The readers know from the get-go what those acronyms mean, except for EDSA. You can make a case for "NBA" and "NFL" (30% of hits vs. views), but everyone who consciously searched for those two knows what the "NBA" and "NFL" are. However, unlike "NBA" not too many know what "UEFA" and "CONCACAF" mean (even amongst followers of football), so they're titled in their respective acronyms. – H T  D  19:34, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It will set a bad precedent, that's all I'm saying. And I don't want to compare sports leagues or other commercial entities, pop icons like Bill Clinton included, with geographical ones (like roads and other places) as they go by different naming conventions (i.e, place names are more permanent-they don't die lol). I dunno, thats just how I see it. Like you said, Samal will always be Samal even when people call it something else (by its acronym or nick). Cheers! --RioHondo (talk) 16:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * How can renaming the article about EDSA into "EDSA" that follows WP:NC ever be bad precedent? We already have precedent, anyway: There's a reason why "Avenue of the Americas" is at "Sixth Avenue (Manhattan)". If ever it is proven that there other EDSAs elsewhere deserve WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, or at the very least, makes the article about this EDSA not a primary topic, this should still be moved to "EDSA (road)". Place names aren't exactly permanent, such as Azcarraga which became Recto Ave., for example.
 * As for IGACOS and Samal, I'd suspect the politicians did really want a catchy acronym all along -- hence ICAGOS -- as compared to EDSA ( "Avenue", the most generic of street names; "EDSA" was coincidental, unless they looked for someone with an "EDS" initials). Good thing "SCOM" hasn't caught on with the people of the Science City of Munoz. – H T  D  18:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it take an act of Congress or a city ordinance at the very least for a street/road to be renamed? Hence, like the names of cities and municipalities in the country, we can't just retitle their articles and abbreviate them all because of convenience or popularity. And that's what I meant by place names being "more permanent". 6th Ave has always been 6th Ave and the name "Avenue of the Americas" was only added as a sort of nickname or alternative. The better analogy would be like FDR Drive also in NY, or Mass Ave elsewhere in the US that have retained their long titles despite their unpopularity among locals. Cos roads like place names are legislated and are officially adopted, they don't just give in to the "popular thing". :) -- RioHondo (talk) 12:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * According to Sixth Avenue (Manhattan), "Avenue of the Americas" is the official name. It was renamed by the City Council.
 * There had been similar discussions of moving not only street names but anything else (except articles about people) to the most popular "shortcut" names (the 6th Ave/Ave of the Americas analogy is different). The results have not always been consistent, but what is consistent is if the public actually knows what the official long name, the official long name is used. Hence, U.S. Route 66 is there, and not at "US 66", since the public presumably knows that the official name of "US 66" is "US Route 66." This is similar to your FDR Drive; practically every motorist knows who "FDR" is; even Filipinos made that into "FVR". This is the analogy of keeping the NBA article at "National Basketball Association" instead of moving it to NBA. Same with the likes of EU/European Union, QC/Quezon City, etc.
 * This is different when the public doesn't know what the official long name is; indeed, this is the most cases on articles about people, acronyms that are from a foreign language, or the meaning has been buried in history or are simply too obscure. This is the case in FIFA, Bill Clinton, Interpol, laser and even FHM. The case of EDSA is similar as the public does not know, or at the very most, would have to dredge it from the recesses of their mind to tell someone for whom was EDSA named after, unless of course you're into that type of stuff.
 * Nevertheless, the official name given by the legislature isn't always the article title. The Samal City Charter pretty much states that the name of the place is "The Island Garden City of Samal," yet the article's at Samal, Davao del Norte. We should give in to the popular thing. – H T  D  15:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

– H T  D  15:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Every taxi driver in the metro knows who or what E.D.S.A. is. Practically every commuter too from Pasay/Makati all the way to Ortigas and QC is aware of the name behind this fraffic-laden road. Especially after the extensive coverage and publicity it generated during the 2009-2010 debate on renaming Edsa after Cory(which also failed). There's also the 1986 and 2001 Edsa revolution to remind them who EDS is. The only ones complaining are probably recent migrants or people totally clueless of what's happening all over the Metro. I mean, Epifanio de los Santos is more popular than some might think. It's not like V. Mapa or AH Lacson or E Rodriguez, whose first name people wouldn't prolly even guess.--RioHondo (talk)<
 * Hmmm... perhaps on that week when the news erupted, everyone knew who Epifanio de los Santos is. After the issue died down, it went back to normal, where Epifanio de los Santos went back to becoming anonymous. Even at the height of the issue, no one started calling EDSA on its full name. However, Arsenio Lacson who is still known by old Manila residents; not much for the newer generations or the transplants, though; Eulogio Rodriguez's popularity is even worse than Lacson amongst Manila transplants. That's why if we're having articles on those two streets, it's "A.H. Lacson Avenue" (or even "Lacson Avenue") and "E. Rodriguez Avenue". Plus, Lacson and Rodriguez had some popularity at the height of their careers; the former was the Rodrigo Duterte of Manila during the 3rd Republic, and the latter is the longest-serving Senate President. It's a pity the Third Republic is pretty much ignored in Philippine history. It's as if history is 45% about the Philippine Revolution and 45% martial law... At least this is worse than "J. Ruiz", as it turns out they haven't found out what "J" actually means! I'm betting that less than 5 in 100 will know what "C" in "C5" actually means. If it weren't for Wikipedia, I wouldn't.
 * Plus, the fact that 2001 EDSA Revolution is there instead at 2001 Epifanio de los Santos Avenue Revolution is very telling. – H T  D  15:51, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what i fear would happen when we give in to this trend of abbreviating and acronymizing everything! We wouldn't want Edsa to become a J Ruiz one day.. Btw thats one of the reasons why I came up with these articles: List of eponymous streets in Manila and List of renamed streets in Manila. I'd say stick to the status quo. FDR, EDSA, PIE(Singapore), The Strip (Las Vegas), we all have our own little pet names for our cities main streets, but ones that shouldn't be in the books (for posterity at least). --RioHondo (talk) 16:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In defense of J. Ruiz, apparently they haven't forgot what "J" meant: it's "Juan"; the guy was just sitting there, and was "recruited" to be with the Katipuneros that charged into where is the Pinaglabanan Shrine now. (See this.) People know what "FDR" means, dunno for "PIE" and Singaporeans, but judging the NLEX/SLEX example, the public may know what "PIE" means. "The Strip" is actually an informal name; the article's at "Las Vegas Strip", so it's not a major change. Unlike you're other examples, very, very few know what "EDSA" means. – H  T  D  16:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The case of EDSA being acronymized is not a bad thing. No one will argue that laser is a bad thing. EDSA is the most prevalent name; "Epifanio de los Santos Avenue" is almost never used in everyday life. – H T  D  16:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * (Reindent): The gist of my argument is actually very simple: if the people know the long name of something use it as the article title. If it isn't, use the most popular name. Let's use the "does the people know what ____ means?" test:
 * ComVal? Yes; so it's at Compostela Valley.
 * GMA Cavite? Yes; so it's at General Mariano Alvarez, Cavite.
 * FDR? Yes; so it's at Franklin D. Roosevelt.
 * SLEX? Yes; so it's at South Luzon Expressway.
 * UK? Yes; so it's at United Kingdom.
 * US 66? Yes; so it's at U.S. Route 66.
 * FIFA? No; so it's at FIFA.
 * GQ? No; so it's at GQ.
 * Laser? No; so it's at Laser.
 * M15? No; so it's at MI5.
 * EDSA? No; so it should be at EDSA.
 * So yes, if someone will make an article about J. Ruiz Street, it should be at "J. Ruiz Street" and not at "Juan Ruiz Street". Wikipedia should not blaze the trail for correct usage; it merely follows current usage, whether it is wrong in the eyes of some people. – H T  D  16:41, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's very arbitrary, that's all I can say. It depends on who you ask, like if i go to Manhattan and ask the younger residents there, theyd probably wouldnt know or wouldnt even care and give you this weird look, same when you go to Harlem or Washington Hts or the Bronx. I mean we filipinos we cant be more naive or apathetic than the young generation of yanks. Teehee! Btw, thanks for the tidbit on J. Ruiz. Cheers!--RioHondo (talk) 16:54, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well of course it depends on who you ask. It's like asking people walking outside Yankee Stadium if the Red Sox sucks, 100% scream "yes". If you'd get a more balanced sample nationwide, the result won't be as one-sided. This is similar to the newer generations/transplants example I gave above.
 * Just to prove further that no one knows, or more appropriately, no one cares about what EDSA means, take a look at this news road accident reports, vs. accidents on NLEX:
 * Four people were injured in an accident involving 14 vehicles on a rainy Friday night on EDSA, authorities said.
 * Two buses were involved in an accident along EDSA at the height of the rush hour Wednesday, February 6...
 * Two people were declared dead on the spot after the Tamaraw FX they’re riding collided with a bus along the EDSA-Shaw underpass early Sunday morning.
 * Now for NLEX:
 * At least 60 people were hurt after a pickup truck rammed the bus they were riding on while speeding along the North Luzon Expressway in Bulacan Tuesday midnight.
 * At least seven people were injured in two separate accidents along the North Luzon Expressway (NLEx) on Saturday morning.
 * Traffic at the northbound side of the North Luzon Expressway (NLEX) was brought to a crawling pace after 9 vehicles collided with each other at about 12:57 pm Saturday, February 23.
 * Interestingly, GMA News bucked the trend. On most of its EDSA accident reports, it always spells out what "EDSA" means.
 * What does this mean? One or more of the following: The WP:RS...
 * ...assumes the public knows what EDSA means.
 * ...assumes the public doesn't care about what EDSA means.
 * ...assumes the meaning of EDSA isn't important for the public to understand the story.
 * I do want to know how media from outside the Metro handles this. Here's one from Reuters:
 * Traffic on the northbound lanes of the EDSA highway came to a standstill as investigators searched for evidence...
 * Now does it make me stupid if the article name is at EDSA? No, but at the current title, it is unrecognizable for me, at least on first glance. I typed "EDSA", I expected an article about "EDSA", everyone knows it is called "EDSA" but I arrived at "Epifanio de los Santos Avenue???" Ah wait, my teacher taught me way back in third grade that EDSA was named after this guy! That violates WP:NC: Article titles should be recognizable to readers. – H T  D  17:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hah, this actually reminds me of one of those episodes from The Tonight Show with Jay Leno and Ellen, where they go around LA or New York and ask random questions to people similar to this. Like Jay Leno would go, who is FDR, do you know what FDR in FDR Drive is? Its always funny when he does that and only 1 or 2 get it right (who then gets a price and/or kiss from Leno) hehe! Ah yea, i learned that in fifth grade that FDR was actually a president named Frank Dwight Roosevelt! Lol, that's America for you. :) Btw, most media reporting on Edsa has Epifanio delos Santos in the inline text, its but natural. RioHondo (talk) 17:32, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Having the right answer isn't funny, so naturally, that's not shown on broadcasts. Who knows how many actually were right.
 * As for having "Epifanio delos Santos" in the inline text, on the sources I linked above, none mentioned what "EDSA" means, while all mentioned that "North Luzon Expressway" will be called as "NLEX" in the rest of the article for brevity. It is natural for the media (local or foreign, except for GMA News lol) not to say what "EDSA" means in the inline text. – H T  D  17:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Having lived in New York, i know it's not all show and that there is growing apathy and plain ignorance in the streets. But anyway, i still maintain my position and that Epifanio delos Santos Avenue is fine where it is. Peace out! -RioHondo (talk) 17:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If the article title being an outright violation of what WP:NC stands for, which is "Article titles should be recognizable to readers" is fine, well, something's gotta be wrong here.
 * If you, your friends, and the people you claim to live in your city don't know who FDR, the longest-serving U.S. president, is, in "FDR Drive", something's terribly wrong with that, too. I'd probably support a move to "FDR Drive", though, as looking at local news sources, most (if not all) don't use "Franklin D. Roosevelt East River Drive". That way, FDR can live anonymously ever after. It's quite different from the man behind "EDSA", who was more of a background guy. – H T  D  18:01, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. EDSA as an acronym has several other meanings in other countries: for me tonight (because these things change depending on when and from where you check), none of the first 10 Google hits for EDSA relate to the Avenue. There is currently a redirect from EDSA to the Avenue: there may be a case for making that a disambiguation page, but for now, anyone looking for EDSA is brought right here. No fix needed. Brocach (talk) 23:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If there are several EDSAs that can claim WP:PRIMARYTOPIC why does EDSA (disambiguation) does not exist? – H T  D  03:27, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems that the most popular "EDSA"s aside from the road are the European Dental Students Association, the European Down Syndrome Association, the Edmonton and District Soccer Association, Emil Dale's Performing Arts School and EDSA Landscape, all red links. This is not the most compelling of arguments, especially so since the other EDSAs are either from Europe (incl. the UK) and Canada, which should provide a bounty of WP:RS that can be used to build articles. If no one bothers to write about them in 2013, it's quite telling that these EDSAs may not be even notable for a full-fledged article. – H T  D  03:36, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.