Talk:E Clampus Vitus

Untitled
Just found this discussion page. All of you have done a fine job on the page, and I hope I didn't do any damage with my editing, but I just wanted to get in the "10 edits and 4 days" to help me upload the new ecvbanner. Evidently that won't help, as it has just been deleted due to being "Copywrited Material", which of course it isn't because I did the original artwork myself 12 years ago, and made changes to it yesterday before uploading. And I think you may be right about the ECV Gazette and other site links not being pertinent. They are links to ECV material, but do not really pertain to the history. Most all of them should be removed. I will not do any further editing of the text portion of the page, but will instead persue the image problem. If anyone wishes to contact me, my email address can be found at http://www.ecvnet.com/contact/mailme .... The new banner can also be seen at the bottom of the page. IRJR (talk) 19:37, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello brethren

Please use this database to add or enhance all relevent knowledge of the glorious history of ECV

Recently, there has been discussion and revision to this article. I have "edited boldly" and have replaced some of the deleted text. I believe that I have left out all of the information that someone considered "utter nonsense", and have left only info that is established, historical fact. The history of this Order is steeped in mythology, and much of it is only passed down through oral sources. "Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable" - Mark Twain. Please, don't delete this entry. I will carry on a dialog with any editor who wishes to discuss any disputed information.

Further revision
For some reason, my attempts at cleaning up the sloppily written article about the Ancient and Honorable Order of E Clampus Vitus has perturbed some people. I have again submitted a version of the history that was never challenged and indeed is factual. I believe that this current version better illustrates the mysterious, complicated history of ECV. Some of the discrepencies seem to involve the following:

1. Who, exactly, brought ECV into California. Most say it was either Joseph Zumwalt or another individual, Joel Zumwalt. Others say that ECV was already established in California. The explanation, and the source, are listed in the article. Further reading on the subject can be found in Dr. Al Shumate's Mysterious History of E Clampus Vitus, an award winning lecture that is a superbly written piece that wonderfully expounds the glorious history of the Order.

2. The section on the initiation. I felt that the original was poorly written. I simply rewrote that section to give a better idea (albeit with somewhat florid language) of what takes place. In writing that section, I tried to come as close to explaining the ritual without actually giving away any of the long held secrets that we in ECV still use.

3. The external links. The external links that were listed by the original author left something to be desired. It seemed to me that all they did was to give some rather random ECV chapter websites' addresses. The ones I've left are links to ECV history pages that are generally accepted versions of ECV's history.

I'm not sure what else in the article as I've left it is offensive to anyone's sensibilities. It is, simply, the truth. Again, I welcome any dialog that anyone cares to exchange...

Reversion and Copyvio discussion (moved from the VfD page)
"Under U.S. copyright law, the primary things to consider when asking if something is fair use..." it goes on to list..."The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole..."
 * I've reverted even further back, to a more likely version. If somebody disagrees, go ahead and revert my reversion.  As the author of the original version, I vote Keep.  RickK 19:13, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * I fail to see how the version that RickK has changed is any different in substance than the one most recently changed. The original version had spelling mistakes, poor grammar and was written poorly. Wikipedia ecourages users to edit boldly, which I have done. Their was nothing in the latest version that was any different or more "suspicious" than the one that RickK has now perported to be the "more likely" version. With all due respect to RickK (as the author of the original version), as a proud member of the Ancient and Honorable Order of E Clampus Vitus, and Chairman of its Most Important Committee, I have taken the liberty to revert the article back to an earlier version. I vote Keep as well. User:ecvjackass
 * And I've rereverted, since jackass's addition was a copyvio from http://www.ecvgazette.com/lostdutchman/KenCastrosHistoryofECV.htm/. I'm afraid he'll have to point out the "spelling mistakes and poor grammar", as I see none.  RickK 23:01, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * would you please tell me how I violated a copyright here? I CLEARLY listed the author and the title of the work, then made sure that I put quotations around the section I included. ecvjackass
 * By the way, in regards to my supposed Copyright Violation, I went into and reviwed Wikipedia's Copyright FAQ, and came up with this: (I quote)

"Quotations are very well known and widely used form of fair use and fair dealing and are explictly allowed under the Berne convention.

If you produce a derivative work based on fair use, your work is a fair use work."

It seems that according to this, I clearly was not violating anything. I copied a section of Ken Castro's article that, by the way, was quoting largely from newspapers from the 1850's. I felt that it was an acceptable amount of quotated material to explain the idea. I feel it was unfair to say that I was using an "unmodified text dump". Perhaps I'm mistaken, but, I don't see this as a copyright violation. I welcome your feedback... Ecvjackass 02:52, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

(moved by Chris vLS 04:58, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC))


 * Any copyrighted material presented on Wikipedia must be released BY ITS OWNER or his/her representative to the GFDL license. This was not done.  66.60.159.190 16:18, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Again, this CLEARLY NOT a copyright violation. The article I quoted from is NOT COPYRIGHTED ... please see http://www.ecvgazette.com . On the title page, it says (I quote) "This publication is a free service performed by the authors, and dedicated to the members of E Clampus Vitus" - which I am, by the way - "There are no copyright or infringement policies, and any or all content may be copied to any other medium." That seems pretty clear. In addition, I not only clearly mentioned the source before I quoted from it, I gave a link to the page that I quoted from. Have I missed anything? Would anyone else like to take up this debate?

Ecvjackass 19:09, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Revision, again
Admin RickK has asked me to list spelling errors and grammatical mistakes of his. Fine. Here are some from his original article. I will also include a bit of discussion on things in his version that are clearly wrong. There are numerous mistakes.

You wrote: "There are also chapters in Nevada and other Western states." - Western should not be capitalized here.

"The organization's name is in Dog Latin" - this is not true. The origin and meaning of the name is secret and mysterious. ECV has never made a public statement as to what the language may or may not be. So, to state that as a fact is incorrect.

"Clampusus" - this is clearly a typo. Should read 'clampsus'

"Absurdium" - another misspelling. Should be 'absurdum'

"take nothing seriously unless it is absurd" - that is not the correct translation. It should read 'I believe it because it is absurd'. This, actually, might be called 'dog latin', because the correct translation of 'I believe it because it is absurd' is 'Credo quia absurdum est'.

"Morgantown, West Virginia" - Ephraim Bee never lived in Morgantown, he lived in West Union, Virginia. During the civil war, the western region of Virginia secceded from the state and founded West Virginia. By the way, many of those legislators who voted for the creation of West Virginia were members of the Order.

Actually, Ephraim Bee lived in Lewisburg, Virginia in 1845. Lewisburg changed name to West Union, prior to the civil war. He became a member of the new state legislature in 1863, after cessation and becoming a Union State of West Virginia. My research has taken me back to WV, 5 times. I've researched and interviewed several members of the Bee Family. User:stemye

"Caleb Cushing, the American minister" - Cushing's title was United States Commissioner, not Ambassador or Minister. It's believed he brought back the rituals from China and gave them to Ephraim Bee. User:stemye

"wearing your tin" - a stylistic difference. 'Wearing of the tin' is probably more appropriate.

"red miner’s shirt" - I'm not sure what a 'miner's shirt' is. We wear red shirts today to symbolize the red long johns that the old clampers paraded in. It's believed that the Gold Rush miners wore red long johns and denim pants. User: stemye

"Lord Sholto" - You use this twice. It would be like saying 'President George'. Unwieldly

"The Arroyo Grande chapter" - as another contributor pointed out, this is properly called the 'De la Guerro y Pacheco' Chapter

"There were chapters in British Columbia and Hawaii, but they no longer exist." - This is another unwieldly sentence. It gives information without proper context.

The plate of brass paragraph lacks depth.

"There are currently forty ECV chapters" - there are more than 40. There are now 42 with 1 Outpost. USER: stemye

"proposed chapters in ... Colorado" - Colorado now has a full fledged Chapter, number 100, named after Alferd Packer, the cannibal.

"often those sites such as bordellos and saloons" - this statement is misleading. Although plaques have been raised at locations such as those, it is hardly the focus of our Order to only plaque bordellos and saloons.

"after is plaque" - not sure what you were trying to say here. Grammar error.

The initiation paragraph is poorly written. You site instances from one certain initiation (lifted, no doubt, from copyrighted sources) and have no context for the meanings behind them.

The links that you insist on putting in are bizarre choices. The ECV Gazette is a fine clamper website, but as a link? There's no history or much of anything there that would help support the article. The Cyber whang web address brings you to an entirely blank page, and the Mtn Charlie site, while another damn fine clamper website, doesn't do much to support the article either. The 2 links to Ken Castro's and Dr. Shumate's history seem to me to be much better sources.

As it says in the tag line on the editing section, "if you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly...then don't submit it here".

I will revert the article back to my most recent version, away from the sloppy RickK original, and will continue to add content to it. Again, I welcome any discourse that anyone wants to have...

Ecvjackass 16:28, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Edit clarification
Before anyone attempts to say that this is some sockpuppet modification, let me make it clear that I, ecvjackass, made the 2:08, 22 Apr 2005 revision. My computer shows me logged in, but when I posted this edit, it registered 201.128.148.94 as the author. Ecvjackass 02:13, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Votes for deletion result
This article was proposed for deletion; the result was to keep. See Votes for deletion/E Clampus Vitus for a record of the votes and discussion.

Copyedit

 * I ran across this article when the copyedit tag popped up on CDVF... I just had to take it on. Love the Clampers... can't miss their sense of humor when you travel around California. Fair, interesting and thorough article. Long live ECV! --FCYTravis 10:19, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Quick note
In the first paragraph, there are two variants on similar concepts, one where members refer to themselves as Clampers, and the other where members are called Clampers. Should this be combined into a single sentence at the position of the second instance?

BTW, there is a semi-forgotten stone wall in the goldrush town of Murphys, CA, which contains numerous Clamper portraits and other items of interest. IIRC, it's on the west end of town (main street) not too far from the road leading up to the cave. Head up there sometime and take a look! 71.139.30.9 07:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject California
I hope that the brethren do not object to having this article included in WikiProject California. Even though there are chapters outside the state, it seems that there is a strong connection.--Hjal 09:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Chapter in Port Douglas, British Columbia
I'm not sure this is mentioned in Port Douglas' article yet but it's well-known tidbit about the place, now long-abandoned, that one of the remaining artifacts in the town's derelict days was an E Clampus Vitus plaque and/or a mention in the local papers of that short-lived town; evidently a transference from the California goldfields, like so much else concerning the BC gold rushes. I'll see if I can find the source/citation and come back with how the mention of a chapter in gold-rush era BC should be described; no mention is made in any BC sources of a connection to the California organization, which I hadn't heard of before but which makes perfect sense now....Skookum1 (talk) 15:02, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Very interesting I would like to know more! I am a member and history of the org is very important to us. Gutarkomp (talk) 18:07, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

E Clampsus Vitus was meeting nightly & flourishing at Port Douglas, British Columbia  in February 1862: source: The Victoria Daily Colonist - Supplement. ( Victoria, British Columbia), 11 February 1862 -- page 5 column 4, bottom: https://archive.org/details/dailycolonist311uvic/page/n3/mode/2up?q=clampsus

article in NYT, Oct 14 2008
I'd just add it to external links but I think it's subscription only in order for the link to work; but here is an article in today's NY Times'' (Oct 14/08).Skookum1 (talk) 15:34, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Basic Standards
This article lacks any inline citations and reads like an advertisement and/or internal newsletter, not an encyclopedia entry. The discussion here only emphasizes the author's misconception that this article is for "brethren," i.e., members of a private organization, to engage in creating an internal document, rather than creating a public encyclopedia entry. 76.23.157.102 (talk) 02:50, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
 * In addition, there are a great many weasel words and unverified statements. Surely the members of the organization have some form of books or documents about the history of the organization... Here are some weasel examples:
 * "History shows that the organization was brought..." (What history?)
 * "After the Civil War, it was discovered that Jaco Cave was a holding area for the runaway slaves." (Who discovered this fact?)
 * "It has been rumored that ECV brethren within the U.S. Army even attempted..." (By whom?)
 * "The organization is said to have been taken to California by an ECV member..." (Who said it?)
 * "There are arguments that previous lodges had been founded..." (Whose arguments?)
 * "There is evidence to support the ECV claim to Ulysses S. Grant." (What evidence? ...incomplete sentence anyway)
 * Etc.
 * — ★ Parsa ☞ talk 16:56, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The article does need work. It really is an old fraternal organization in California, but the article is written in almost "in-universe" style. --John Nagle (talk) 21:18, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The only thing I'd disagree with is "almost". This article is written entirely in-universe, by and for ONLY members and supporters of the article's subject. It is the most egregious example I have yet seen of a group of editors hijacking a Wikipedia article to satisfy their own objectives with total contempt for the cooperative spirit by which WP operates. They have resisted every attempt by impartial editors to bring objectivity and balance to the article, and they fight to the death to keep its wholly biased, partisan, self-serving and promotional nature intact.


 * I don't understand why they don't put this crap on their own website where it belongs and why WP administrators allow them to continue to use this supposed encyclopedia as a free server for promoting their organization and celebrating the delight it gives them. There is not a single objective word or image anywhere in this article, and it is a shame that the administrators of Wikipedia didn't stop this flagrant abuse of and contempt for EVERY Wikipedia principle long ago. Maybe Jimmy Wales is a member.--Jim10701 (talk) 13:08, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree! All this Wikipedia malarkey should go back onto Jimmy Wales personal website and stop mucking up the historical record with it's post-1990 in-universe outlook. Lord love a duck, in a few more years John Williams will be taking credit for the 1812 Overture! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.115.31 (talk) 03:55, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Pictures for Commons
I wrote the German entry (btw I did NOT a translation, for quality reasons). It would be nice to have some pics converted to commons to use them as well beyound the en WP. BR Polentario (talk) 00:49, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Some original, but scholarly, research
Disclaimer: I am not a member of ECV, and have only heard of ECV recently through User:Serten. From 1960 through 1965 I was in the California school system in Alameda County CA. While attending Linda Vista Elementary School, San Lorenzo CA we studied California history. We actually had a large text book on the subject. In this text book was the story of Sir Edwin Drakes plaque & coin, to include photos. See section Reestablishment, paragraph 5. When reading this article, and the German version (which is more detailed) I was surprised to find this proved (in 1970) to be a hoax done by ECV. Now my childhood is shattered and I must see Dr. Bonkus for counseling. Illigetimi non carborendum est Tjlynnjr (talk) 16:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC).


 * I have been shattered myself, as somebody told me a book (maybe not even a plaque) is never a primary source, compare Talk:Ozone_depletion. The end is nigh, my friend. Glück Auf!Serten (talk) 18:21, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

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