Talk:E pluribus unum

Comments
I question why there is a 'similarity' reference to 'Unity in Diversity' - the United States motto aims to make its many immigrants join one America, the European Union one has no such goal and wants to preserve the differences between the diverse groups. If there are no reasonable objections I intend to remove this line. michael talk 02:51, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * For many Americans, it does imply Unity in Diversity. Certainly at the time this phrase was created, there was no expectation that the 13 colonies would become culturally identical. Of course, others disagree, and see the phrase as meaning that everyone in the US should become culturally identical.--RLent (talk) 18:42, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

when I was in science class in middle school the teacher asked if we thought that America was a 'melting pot', blending different people together or a 'fruit salad', meaning different people united. We answered that we felt we were fruit salad. As an adult, I understood e pluribus unum to mean consensus of a group. Like when Representatives disagree, they ask dissenters to support the majority for the sake of unity and that is what e pluribus unum meant. I read this article and it seems to scream "the goal of America is to blend the races into one race of people".. just because a slogan might be being deliberately misinterpreted by some. I also think the current President explained e pluribus unum in racial terms recently in a speech; or he seemed to. Anyway, does not the melting-pot interpretation go against the other ideas such as 'United States' conceptually meaning separate identities, laws, culture but united for the common good of the group though our democratic system. Further, does not the alternate definition of e pluribus unum also, in fact destroy diversity? by mixing the races aren't you in fact putting an end to the different peoples, creating the same culture; I cannot believe that was ever intended to actually occur. I would appreciate educated opinion on these issues. Regardless of your answer, we are faced with the reality that average people now seem to believe e pluribus unum means to make America a melting pot, I just think we should lean the other direction as the entire worlds diversity is precious and too important to throw away. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.185.78.199 (talk) 09:14, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

'"Out of all things one, one out of all things." A variant of the phrase was used in Moretum, a poem attributed to Virgil but with the actual author unknown. In the poem text, color est e pluribus unus describes the blending of colors into one.'

Isn't this describing alternate definitions? Shouldn't it be moved to a derivations section rather than what seems to be the spot of the actual definition?

'The motto E pluribus unum "alludes to this union" between the states and federal government, as symbolized by the shield on the eagle's breast. The thirteen stripes "represent the several states all joined in one solid compact entire, supporting a Chief, which unites the whole & represents Congress." – Charles Thomson.' http://www.greatseal.com/mottoes/unum.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.32.4.51 (talk) 13:05, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

There should be a discussion of the historical fact that America was built by legal immigration with rapid assimilation -- E Pluribus Unum. Today, America is being destroyed by massive illegal immigration without assimilation -- diversity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.97.69.229 (talk) 15:37, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

"Unum" is supposed to be Capitalized.
"Unum" is supposed to be capitalized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.18.26.15 (talk • contribs)
 * According to whom? In the original Latin, the entire thing would be capitalized (if you will), and on US coins, the whole phrase is indeed capitalized.  I suppose you could go back to the original documents introducing it as a national motto, but capitalization has always been a fluid enterprise, especially when comparing the 18th and 21st centuries.  Most importantly, AFAIK it is almost always rendered "E pubes Unum"in contemporary English usage.  Anyone else have any thoughts on this matter?  --Xyzzyva 11:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that "Unum" should be capitalized: In the translation as given, the word "One" is capitalized. 75.179.5.126 06:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Unum - accusative case
Unum is accusative case (object of verb or preposition). It is not nominative case (unus) & so it is not the subject of the sentence, It should come at the end of the English sentence rather than at the beginning--JimWae 21:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, guess I forgot about neuter case, but position & intent also would put at end --JimWae 21:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC) M.  F.   N.       N.   ûnus ûna ûnum V.  ûne ûna ûnum Acc. ûnum ûnam ûnum G.  ûnius ûnius ûnius D.  ûnî ûnî ûnî Ab. ûnô ûnâ ûnô

I've only heard it (in English) as "Out of many, one." Weird that translation isn't present here. Arthurian Legend 03:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
"However, "E Pluribus Unum" is often poorly translated to mean "One out of many" or "One from many." However, the position of the pronoun unum points to the aforementioned meaning, which refers to the unity of the disparate states of the United States."


 * You can't infer the English word order from the Latin. "E Pluribus Unum" and "Unum E Pluribus" are equivalent in Latin, and either word order in ENglish would be a reasonable translation. I agree though, that historically the phrase referred to many states forming one union. --ABehrens (talk) 03:28, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

This seems highly POV to me (who decides what qualifies as a "poor translation"?), and, frankly, I don't see much of a difference in meaning between either of those and the "aforementioned meaning". Sectori 21:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Moretum (salad recipe as origen of phrase)
I notice the article contains a link to Virgil's Moretum, which I understand is the first recorded use of the phrase, but this isn't mentioned in the text. I really don't know enough about the subject to add it myself, but I just thought I'd comment on it. Martin (talk) 22:26, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I concur. The trivia game Cranium says Moretum is the source but is not a sufficiently reliable source to me by itself. 12.46.32.10 (talk) 15:59, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Offensive Rubbish
"The motto means "Out of Many, One," and probably refers to the unity of the early States. Colonel Reed of Uxbridge, Massachusetts, is said to have been instrumental in having it placed on Usonian coins."

The proper name for a citizen of the United States is "American," not "Usonian" the kind of foolish edit needs to be discouraged. Fixed. Travis T. Cleveland (talk) 23:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * How is it offensive? Incorrect, yes, but offensive? Zazaban (talk) 00:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It was a word pushed by Frank Lloyd Wright... AnonMoos (talk) 14:10, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

LATIN
Latin is a beautiful language. let me just tell you that the correct translation for E Pluribis Unum is One From Many. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.136.181.27 (talk) 21:07, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

E Plurbis Unum in Latin means uniteded one, or out of many. kind of a play on words.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.190.242 (talk) 18:04, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation
I take issue with this sentence

Its Anglicized pronunciation is .

I don't think unum is really ever pronounced with a consonantal y sound. It's pronounced u:nəm. I would re-write it as. I'm not sure about how the pronunciation for pluribus is written. I'll leave that be. --Revolución  talk  00:45, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Discovery Channel
This claim (without citation) from the introduction strikes me as quite odd:

"A different account was put forward in the Discovery Channel program "Secret America". According to an interview with Priscilla Linn, Senior Curator, State Dept. Diplomacy, the phrase "Out of Many, One" came from a magazine called "The Gentleman's Magazine," published at the time of the revolution. Each year, the magazine would re-purpose one article from each of the year's  12 issues, publishing a standalone issue that was "Out of many, one"."

There's no citation for this program, that is, there's no pointer to a place one could actually verify this claim (on or off the web). In a quick search I couldn't turn up a transcript of the show or any other record of such an interview with Linn.

So I've moved the relevant passage here pending verification. Eedwa 01 (talk) 09:44, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/229387/The-Gentlemans-Magazine sources prior usage of expression in 1730s
 * Also see: http://books.google.ca/books?id=VEgDAAAAMAAJ&pg=PR4&lpg=PR4&dq=%22The+Gentleman's+Magazine%22+%22e+pluribus%22&source=bl&ots=mrsV1SRFuJ&sig=dDakia6CteWUb34_DygMmr0dtNQ&hl=en&ei=wBf-S7GuBsH68AaimN3BDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCkQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=%22The%20Gentleman's%20Magazine%22%20%22e%20pluribus%22&f=false --JimWae (talk) 07:01, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Here's another link to "The Gentleman's Magazine". The magazine illustrated the motto with a sketch of a hand holding a bouquet of flowers. --ABehrens (talk) 03:35, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

from or out of plus more for all union
Yes its possible that it was meant as E =from or out of ; pluri = plus more ; bus = for all ; unum = union  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.56.23.89 (talk) 06:07, 27 May 2010 (UTC) Wrong. "Out of many, one" has always been the correct and agreed upon translation of the 13-letter Latin motto. 2601:589:4705:C7C0:CC25:99AD:493:9246 (talk) 01:49, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

E pluribus unum = 13 letters
'Symbolically, the phrase E pluribus unum has 13 letters (as does Annuit coeptis''). This example of gematria (isopsephy) then represents the 13 colonies becoming the United States. The back of the US 2010 penny features E pluribus unum and a shield with 13 vertical stripes. The back of the US dollar includes these 13 letters among 13 symbolic references to the number 13. - p. 121, The Secret Symbols of the Dollar Bill by David Ovason (Harper Collins, 2004)'''

The ancient practice of Hebrew gematria/Greek isopsephy/Arabic abjad numerals/hisab al-jummal and modern Simple(6,74) English(7,74) Gematria(8,74) appears to primarily concentrate on the gematric sums of words/names, i.e. Ruler=74 Sargon=74 (S19+a1+r18g7+o15+n14). But this is actually 'Step 2' of gematria(74). 'Step 1' of gematria(8) is simply counting the number of letters in a word/name/phrase. Because of Roman Numerals not coinciding with their place in the Latin Alphabet, i.e. I does not = 1, Latin gematria never gave much importance to Step 2 of gematric sum. But the learned Romans and other learned practioners of Latin did recognize Step 1 of counting the Latin letters and giving significance to it. This practice can be traced back to Plato's (Pythagoreans') use of "God is ever a geometer", which in Greek ἀεὶ ὁ Θεὸς ὁ μέγας γεωμετρεῖ equals 3,1,4,1,5,9 or 3.14159 π pi. - Brad Watson, Miami, FL 64.136.26.22 (talk) 12:08, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * This section is extremely odd. It's meaningless information without it being an intentional symbol and it's not made clear that it was intentional symbology initially. It's extremely difficult to check the reference cited to verify the academic validity (and something tells me the author is inferring a lot here). If it wasn't intentional (in a verifiable manner), then it shouldn't be included in this entry. If it was intentional, then this section should be cleaned up to reflect that fact as it's focal point. It just sounds like inference right now. Can someone please check on this that has access to that book and check its academic authenticity? 71.195.176.45 (talk) 07:41, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

The Great Seal of the United States Committee formed on July 4, 1776 was led by Benjamin Franklin Grand Master Mason (Freemasonry) of the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania. Along with John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, they promoted a Great Seal with the 13 shields of the 13 States with the 13-letter motto "E PLURIBUS UNUM". This significance of the 13-letter motto is also referred to in Manly P. Hall's The Secret Teachings of All Ages - An Encyclopedia of Masonic, Hermetic, Qabbalistic and Rosicrucian Symbolic Philosophy (Philosophical Research Society, 1928 [1972]), page XC. 76.18.14.85 (talk) 23:45, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

In God We Trust?
Why is there so much information about In God We Trust? Having God as part of American symbolism is a hotly-debated topic. It's barely related to E pluribus unum. 188.102.8.58 (talk) 18:00, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Are you an atheist? Wikipedia is very agenda driven. The US Founding Fathers all believed in GOD. E pluribus Unum also applies to Out of many gods, One GOD. Annuit coeptis is also a 13-letter motto with a direct reference to GOD. "IN GOD WE TRUST" is a 12-letter motto that would be better if tweaked to "IN 1 GOD WE TRUST"(13). 2601:589:4705:C7C0:CC25:99AD:493:9246 (talk) 01:41, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Classical Latin translation
Assuming this ought to be translated according to the rules of Classical Latin, the translation should really be "One of Many. This is an idiomatic usage commonly attested, and I think it could be considered more correct although less literal. "Of" usually denotes the genitive case in Latin, but this is a different situation, more like the phrase "one of the boys is good" (in Latin, E pueris unus bonus est). Is this worth noting within the article? Most verily, 'tis Metaknowledge! 02:54, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Benjamin Franklin, John Adams and Thomas Jefferson all knew the 13-letter Latin motto, 'E pluribus Unum' meant "Out of many, one." Any other translation is wrong and 240 years after the fact. 2601:589:4705:C7C0:CC25:99AD:493:9246 (talk) 01:45, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Latin IPA
I see that the Latin pronuncation is provided as [ˈeː ˈpluːrɪbʊs ˈuːnũː] which in the sense that the final [m] is omitted/nasalizes the previous vowel when  the text continues, but here unum is phrase final position, so omitting it does not make sense. ImreK (talk) 15:54, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

The Meaning section contains weasel wording and a flimsy citation
Here is the Meaning section as it stands now:


 * The traditionally understood meaning of the phrase was that out of many states (or colonies) emerges a single nation. However, in recent years its meaning has come to suggest that out of many peoples, races, religions, languages, and ancestries has emerged a single people and nation—illustrating the concept of the melting pot.[7]

Despite the {WP:NPOV} made thus far regarding this page, this paragraph in particular seems to have a book centric to ethnic diversity and discrimination as its sole citation. Further, the following is a perfect example of wikipedian weasel wording {WP:WEASEL}:


 * However, in recent years its meaning has come to suggest[...]

^^^^which is extremely weak.Tgm1024 (talk) 21:21, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Meaning section: STILL the same weasel wording, and further, the cited source is an opinion piece in Time Magaine.
Whomever you are, if you're going to reverse my edit that removed the "melting pot" crap that ended up in the Meaning section, then come here and supply your reasons for keeping it.

That article in Time magazine was an editorial musing and cannot hold muster against the prior citation which contradicts it. Now if you do feel that "E pluribus unum" somehow is this melting pot nonsense, then please make your case here. And for GOD'S SAKE don't use crap language like "recent times" again.Tgm1024 (talk) 01:32, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

What about other countries and languages?

 * AuBC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation - "We are one" MountVic127 (talk) 22:31, 24 December 2023 (UTC)