Talk:Earl Mindell/Archive 1

Article biased
This article is extremely biased right now. It needs attention. Anon

Okay. So edit it. That's how Wikipedia works, you know... Famousdog 13:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Listserv source
I think the listserv is a weak source. Should it be removed?

Found this article re-printed in a blog with the full-text version available from the Victoria Advocate.

Re-Print

Full Text

Is this source usable? -SERSeanCrane (a.k.a. 137.165.241.134)


 * I note that User:SERSeanCrane has made only a few contributions (all to this page) before their profile was deleted. I suspect sockpuppetry. Famousdog 16:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I am new to wiki and have made it clear that I was initially editing without a registered account (ip 137.165.241.134). How exactly is that sockpuppetry?

SERSeanCrane 17:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I do apologise if my intuition was wrong. It is a pattern of behaviour that i have encountered before and it aroused my suspicions. Famousdog 20:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Materials
Just posting some materials that may be worth adding to the article..
 * Time Magazine
 * Victoria Advocate
 * Full Text of V.A. Article

SERSeanCrane 04:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Contemporary Authors Online, Gale, 2006. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Thomson Gale. 2006. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC
 * "Earl Lawrence Mindell." Marquis Who's Who TM. Marquis Who's Who, 2006. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Thomson Gale. 2006. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC
 * Editorial by an Accredited Nutritionist
 * SERSeanCrane 04:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * SERSeanCrane 04:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * SERSeanCrane 05:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Conflicting Information
There is some conflicting information regarding Mindell's doctorate. Some sources assert he obtained it from the University of Beverly Hills, 1980. Other sources, such as Dr. Joe Schwarcz, say he received his Ph.D. from Pacific Western University, 1985.

How should this be dealt with?

SERSeanCrane 18:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * If there is a discrepancy, the info should probably be removed until it can be verified. And on another note, why did you remove references and change the format around? It's usually not a good idea to remove a reference without providing an alternative, and the format you have isn't standard. Anchoress 18:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey Anchoress, thanks for your input. Quick question: Both sources assert that the Ph.D. was obtained from degree mill...at the least, shouldn't this article relay that information instead of removing it all together? And on your second note, the only reference I removed was the amazon link to his book (though it's still available in the external link section). This reference is redundant because a complete list of his publications is available from the Bibliography Resource Center (see above). In other words, I have provided an alternative. As far as formatting goes, please be more specific with your concerns. Thanks! SERSeanCrane 20:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well I think a reference regarding the book should stay in the inline references, for one, and two, the reference section with the subsection isn't standard. And as for the degree mill, I actually think that whole thing should go. It may be true, but I'm not sure that it's scientific. And the fact that it's referring to two different universities makes it less so. Have I clarified enough? Anchoress 21:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I yield to you on whether or not to remove the Ph.D information. I personally think doing so would make the article dramatically less informative, but I see your point and won't argue any further. I do think a 3rd opinion would be nice though =) As far as the reference section goes, I'll have to look at the style guides. Feel free to touch it up in the meantime.
 * OK. I look at it this way: If we say, 'He definitely got his degree from a degree mill,' then people come back with, 'Which one?' to which we reply, 'Well, it was either x or y,' to which they reply, 'Well, if you don't know which one, how do you know it was either?' Anchoress 21:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess ambiguity and confusion allow degree mills to prosper. I have reverted the references back to wiki format and removed two references to web pages that require subscription. Can we find the same info in the public domain? Actually, just noticed that the Schwartz reference also requires a subscription. These aren't useful references to include. Famousdog 21:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, didn't realize this was the case. I accessed these articles through my school's server and just assumed it was publically available because I wasn't asked to enter a subscribers code or anything like that. That said, Schwarcz's article was published in The Montreal Gazette on Aug. 19, 2006 if you can find it there... SERSeanCrane 21:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's fine. I actually read that article when it came out in print too. Famousdog 15:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

This seems to explain the confussion: Hay House SERSeanCrane04:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

(This does too...)

Dominion Herbal
I've seen this alluded to, but it's the first time I've tracked it to a source.

Check out the "Chartered Herbalist Program" [description].

Presumably this would account for his M.H. SERSeanCrane 20:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge from Earl Mindell's Vitamin Bible
Please merge any relevant content from [ Earl Mindell's Vitamin Bible] per Articles for deletion/Earl Mindell's Vitamin Bible. Thanks. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-31 06:27Z 

The World’s #1 Nutritionist
I have removed the claims that Mindel is known as "The World’s #1 Nutritionist" and is regarded as a leader in the Nutrtitional Revolution [sic] as the reference cited in support of these claims belongs to Freelife.com, a firm at which Mindell works. An unbiased source should be provided. Victoriagirl 21:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I have no problem with that, but the title is unofficially his (used countless times for promotional purposes). Even articles refuting his claims refer to him (sarcastically I should add) as "the world's greatest nutritionist" or whatever it is. The Joe Schwarcz article is a good example of such usage. Thanks for the clean up! SERSeanCrane 21:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I do think that if the title "The World’s #1 Nutritionist" is indeed used for promotional purposes (and, therefore, one presumes, of his own making), it should be identified as such. I admit that I am not familiar with any articles in which his claims are refuted, but imagine, from what you have written, that the critics in question are merely repeating his claim (in a sarcastic manner). I'm afraid I don't currently have access to the Joe Schwartz article, so can't comment on the usage of the title. Victoriagirl 22:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you think the title is informative? If so, we should discuss this issue further, but if not, no worries. I don't really have a strong opinion about it either way. SERSeanCrane 22:41, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If this is a title frequently used for promotional purposes, I think it important that it be included and identified as such. Just one girl's opinion. Victoriagirl 00:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Books removed
Why were some book titles removed from the article? Badagnani 07:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I couldn't find publisher information and therefore opted to leave it out. The list itself is incomplete so it shouldn't matter too much. Thoughts? SERSeanCrane 07:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

My thought is that it's not good to remove book titles. The missing information can be gotten via WorldCat or other sources, such as:

Earl Mindell's nutrition & health for dogs : keep your dog healthy and happy with natural preventative care and remedies / Uniform Title: Nutrition & health for dogs Author(s): Mindell, Earl. Renaghan, Elizabeth. Publication: Rocklin, Calif. :; Prima Pub., Year: 1998 Description: xi, 324 p. ; 24 cm. Language: English Standard No: ISBN: 076151158X; 9780761511588; LCCN: 97-49020

There's nothing wrong with having a complete list of the books, and we can work together to do that.

Don't forget that you also removed information about a magazine, also without comment. Badagnani 07:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I also put all that information without comment =) I'd be happy to help complete the list, though. Let me know if you'd like to divide the work or something along those lines. SERSeanCrane 07:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The guy doesn't make it easy to keep track--too many books! One thinks of Sri Chinmoy or Georg Philipp Telemann (not to mention Barbara Cartland) regarding such prolificacy. Badagnani 07:40, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Tell me about it! I've seen a few of them, though, and they sometimes amount to a glorified pamphlet. His Vitamib Bible, on the other hand, is rather lengthy. SERSeanCrane 07:51, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

So, more like Matthew Lesko. Badagnani 07:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a good comparrison. Also, see below...
 * According to Contemporary Authors Online, Mindell told them: "Dale Carnegie's course `How to Win Friends and Influence People' was a very big influence in my life. Other positive thinking authors such as Napoleon Hill, Zig Zigler, Norman Vincent Peale, and Earl Nightingale have also been major influences." SERSeanCrane 08:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Blanked paragraph
This paragraph should not have been blanked, but just was:


 *  Mindell has made several claims about the health benefits of goji juice, including benefits for cancer patients. In an interview with Wendy Mesley on the CBC Television consumer television program Marketplace, which aired on January 24, 2007, H. Leon Bradlow, the author of a study that Mindell cites as support for this anticancer claim says that his original research does not, in fact, show that goji juice has any anticancer properties. Bradlow's study was carried out at Hackensack University Medical Centre, not the "prestigious" Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center as Mindell has repeatedly claimed. When faced with this information, Mindell stated in the same interview that he will stop making those claims. Shortly after this comment, he ejected Mesley and her crew from his house and threatened to call the police.  Badagnani 07:33, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

CBC Expose
The following was added by 74.105.130.213, the only such edit from this IP address...

Mindell makes several claims about the health benefits of Goji Juice [specifically the species Lycium Barbarum], based on research published in 70+ medical research articles. Many of these articles were published in China, which plants 8400 hectares of Goji berries. Goji berries have been used as a herbal medicine for thousands of years in China and have been recorded in key Chinese medical documents for hundreds of years. Current Chinese medical research papers demonstrate the health benefits of the long chain essential sugars known as polysaccharides for everything from repair of mucousal membranes in the lungs (treating asthma and allergies) and intestines (treating irritable bowel, crones, etc), reducing cholestorol, treating type II diabetes and repairing joints damaged by osteo-arthritis.

The CBC in Canada tried to expose Mindell by claiming that his medical claims were fraudulent. In an interview with Wendy Mesley]] on the CBC Television consumer television program Marketplace, which aired on January 24, 2007, interviewed H. Leon Bradlow, the author of a study that Mindell cites as support for this anticancer claim. The study showed that Goji supressed Breast Cancer tissues in a petrie dish. Bradlow's study was carried out at Hackensack University Medical Center, but Earl Mindell misquoted it as being Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center. When faced with information that this research was not conclusive in humans, Mindell stated in the same interview that he will stop making those claims. http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2007/01/goji.html

In addition, Wendy Mesley of Market Place did not do adequate research. Lycium Barbarum Goji berries have more protein than wheat as quoted in Mindell's literature. But Marketplace ran a protein analysis against the juice and determined the protein content was 0%. The label on any bottel of Gjoi Juice clearly states it has 0% protein ans the protein is left behin in the pulp. In addition she proves that Goji has more vitamin C than oranges as calimned by Midell, but she also confuses the claim of having more cartenoids than carrots as having more Beta-Carotene (which is one of many cartenoids). In fact, the cartenoids in Lycium Barbarum are largely zeaxathin. Up to 77% of total carotenoids present in wolfberry exist as zeaxanthin, making it one of the richest sources of zeaxanthin. Zeaxanthin is one of the two carotenoids contained within the retina, the other being lutein, the only differnece being where the double bond is found on the molecule.

What Marketplace also failed to do was identify what were the constituents of the polysaccharides found in the Goji berry of the Lycium Barbarum plant (as opposed to Goji or "wolf berries" from Lycium species of lower nutriotional value). Research has shown that Goji is largely comprised of four polysaccharides that are made up of the eight essential sugars that are important components of the human body:

 Glucose, Mannose, Galactose, Fucose (not to be confused with fructose), N-AcetylGalactosamine, N-AcetylGlucosamine, N-AcetylNeuraminic Acid, Xylose

For example, glucosamine maintains the health of joints and ligaments and can help reverse the effects of osteoarthritis.

One of the key things that Wendy Mesley did not discuss was the ability of Lycium Barbarum to act as an anit-oxidant. The anri-oxidant capability is called ORAC (Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity) value which measures the numer of free radicals that 100 g of a substance can absorb. The abilitiy of Goji to stop "free radicals" from stripping electrons off of healthy cells, causing them to "oxidize" (like metal rusts), is one of its key values and why experts make anti-aging claims. We age because of our bodies inability to protect itself from the damages of free radicals caused by pollution, smoking, toxins, metabolism, alcohol, etc.

The following link rates Wolf berries (Goji) as the highest of the fruits and vegetables (only clove oil exceeds) http://optimalhealth.cia.com.au/OracLevels.htm. USDA does not publish ORAC charts with Goji in it as it is grown outside the US. The USDA however does recommend we consume 3,000 to 5,000 ORAC units daily.

Lycium Barbarum has ORAC counts of 25,000. Coffee berries from the coffe plant are reported to have ORAC levels of 15,000 or higher but only five of the essential sugars (as opposed to Goji's eight). Other fruits with high ORAC counts are Montmorrency Cherries from US (6800 ORAC), Pomegranate (6500 ORAC) and Acia from Brazil (5500 ORAC).

This material is unsourced and reads like spam. Also, as mentioned by Badagnani, the material seems more like a debate than true encyclopedic material. If proper sources can be found to support these claims, this section can added, but until then I see no reason for keeping it. Thoughts? SERSeanCrane 09:11, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes. My thoughts are that you're right and its spam trying to flog us goji juice. No citations except for ads by marketeers. Famousdog 18:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

CBC Expose Response From Freelife
The following was taken from Lav's Blog...


 * In my inbox yesterday was an email with a response to the show from the CEO’s of the company. I’ll only copy some of it but if you’d like to read the whole thing just let me know in a comment and I can get it to you.


 * Last night, a Canadian television station ran a story on Dr. Earl Mindell, FreeLife, and Himalayan Goji Juice. While some portions of the program demonstrated the incredible impact FreeLife and Himalayan Goji Juice is having on people’s lives, other parts of this program were inaccurate and misleading. This surprised us since dozens of other media reports from much larger and more reputable media sources, such as TIME magazine, the Los Angeles Times, and the TODAY show, have had nothing but extremely positive things to say about the impact goji is having on people’s lives.


 * If the television producer’s goal had been to find out the real story about FreeLife, Dr. Mindell, and Himalayan Goji Juice, they would have taken us up on our offer several weeks ago to bring their film crew to our Corporate Office in Phoenix, see our facilities and people, and do an “on-camera” interview with us. Indeed, in our communications with the television station, we reminded them that their own professional standards required them to interview the company and that we were requesting such an interview to ensure the accuracy of any statements about FreeLife, its product, or Dr. Mindell. Why they declined our written invitation, we may never know. We also find it unfortunate that a television program that claims to be an advocate for consumers would so mislead the public in an attempt to discredit a product that has helped hundreds of thousands of people around the world to enjoy better health. Had the television program taken us up on our offer to communicate directly with us, here is what they would have learned:


 * Dr. Mindell is a pioneer in the nutrition industry and is considered by many as the father of the nutritional revolution. As with many pioneers, he has been subjected to much scorn and ridicule throughout his professional career. For example, 30 years ago, he was mocked for suggesting that every person supplement their diet with vitamins. Today, the American Medical Association agrees with Dr. Mindell and recommends that all Americans supplement their diet with a daily multivitamin. That’s what a visionary does.


 * <i>Dr. Mindell received his pharmacy degree from North Dakota State University in 1963. In his 30s while raising a family and working full-time, Dr. Mindell furthered his education and received a Ph.D. in nutrition taking part-time classes from Pacific Western University, a California Accredited Educational Institution and one of the only schools in the country that offered PhDs in nutrition at that time!


 * <i>The media attention that FreeLife, Himalayan Goji Juice, and the goji berry have received over the past year has been incredible. This year, TIME magazine called the Himalayan Goji Berry the “Super Fruit of the Year” and a few days after that, Himalayan Goji Juice was positively featured on the TODAY show in the United States. This week, Woman’s World magazine featured the goji berry with a fantastic article: “Chinese Miracle Berries for Perfect Health.” “Move Over Blueberries. The New Super Fruit? Goji berries, used by Chinese herbalists for over 6,000 years known as the ‘herb of longevity.’”FreeLife’s Himalayan Goji Juice has experienced an unprecedented level of acceptance and passion throughout the world. We have hundreds of thousands of satisfied customers who benefit from Himalayan Goji Juice and purchase it month after month after month.


 * <i>There is an extensive history of independent research on the goji berry proving its benefits. Consumers interested in educating themselves should log on to www.pubmed.gov and type in “Lycium barbarum” the Latin name for the goji berry. This is a United States government sponsored website that provides the most comprehensive and up-to-date research regarding scientific studies. As of today, you will find 79 studies on the goji berry, including 12 new ones published this year alone. The 79th study was just posted this week.


 * <i>The renowned Memorial Sloan-Kettering in New York has a page devoted to the goji berry which you can view at: http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69287.cfm.


 * <i>The vast majority of studies on goji, including the 79 peer reviewed scientific studies you will find on pubmed.gov, relate to the research on goji’s unique polysaccharides named LBP-1, LBP-2, LBP-3 and LPB-4. These polysaccharides, not yet found in any other plant on earth, are what make goji unique and the biggest breakthrough in nutrition that Dr. Mindell has seen in 40 years. They are, by far, the most beneficial component of the goji berry. Knowing this, Dr. Mindell and his research team developed our trade secret, a proprietary manufacturing process that maximizes and standardizes the polysaccharide level in every bottle of Himalayan Goji Juice. That is why our customers get better results with Himalayan Goji Juice than with any other goji product on the market.


 * <i>Interestingly, we had learned that the Canadian television station was testing our Himalayan Goji Juice for several ingredients like protein and beta carotene. We showed them that we never claimed or advertised high protein or beta carotene content in Himalayan Goji Juice. While there are trace amounts of numerous other ingredients, we informed the television program that they were misguided and should be testing for goji’s unique polysaccharides. As with much of their story, their report on the test results of our product was 100% misleading. It would be like testing an orange for its iron content and then concluding that an orange has no nutritional value because it has little to no iron. We all know that nobody consumes oranges because of their iron content—people eat oranges because they are loaded with vitamin C. We have developed a Spectral Signature to ensure that every bottle of Himalayan Goji Juice is packed with goji’s unique health-promoting polysaccharides. It is your guarantee of potency, purity, and authenticity in every bottle. If the Canadian television station had tested our product for polysaccharides, they would have identified an abundance of the most important health-promoting ingredient in the goji berry. For customers looking for high protein or lots of beta carotene, we recommend saving some money and eating a lean piece of chicken with a carrot.


 * <i>FreeLife offers a 90-day, no-questions-asked, 100% unconditional money-back guarantee to all of its customers, even if the entire bottle has been completely finished.

<b>This may provide some balance to the CBC expose sub-section that some anonymous contributors have requested. However, the response would have to be published somewhere other than a blog to reputable. Any idea where we could find such info? SERSeanCrane 15:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Laboratory
Why was "without a campus or laboratory facilities" just removed from the article? Badagnani 18:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * See the edit summary. SERSeanCrane 18:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't explain anything. Badagnani 18:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I said: <i>rv, quackwatch refers to U.B.H.. The CBC expose shows a physical picture of the PWU "dipoloma", therefore it's safer to say PWU conferred "Ph.D"


 * UBH = University of Beverly Hills. If you read the source, "without a campus or laboratory facilities" refers to University of Beverly Hill. PWU = Pacific Western University. As I said, the CBC expose video shows a physical picture of the PWU diploma, hence we know that the his Ph.D was conferred by them. If you check the archive, you'll notice that there was a debate as to where his Ph.D is actually from...there are several conflicting sources, the short story being that it's really hard to confirm a diploma mill degree. Given that we have a physical evidence for PWU, I think it's best to leave BHU out of the picture. Ultimately, though, the section was removed because the source refers to BHU, not PWU.


 * To be completely clear, A (BHU) = C (Doesn't have a campus or lab facilities), but "C" does not necessarily = B (PWU), therefore I removed "C."


 * My apologies if this was confussing. SERSeanCrane 19:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Dominion Herbal II
<b>From the archive:

<i>I've seen this alluded to, but it's the first time I've tracked it to a source.

<i>Check out the "Chartered Herbalist Program" (see description).

<i>Presumably this would account for his M.H. SERSeanCrane 20:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

SERSeanCrane 17:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * How is it known that the has a Chartered Herbalist Diploma? He claims to have a "Master's."  Wouldn't that make it the Master Herbalist Program?  There are at least a half dozen different programs listed here:  http://www.dominionherbal.com/The_Schools/the_schools2.html  Badagnani 22:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Chartered Herbalist Diploma was the only program that mentioned him by name.
 * That said, I just noticed (further down on that page) the following:


 * <i>Master-Herbalist Program, 1-year, Thesis
 * <i>Upon successful completion of the Chartered Herbalist program or another acceptable Herbal Diploma Program, the student is eligible to apply, for an additional fee, to the Master Herbalist Program, which includes research and a thesis on an aspect of Herbal Medicine of interest to the student and approved by the College.
 * <i>CAREER IN CLINICAL HERBAL MEDICINE
 * <i>Clinical Herbal Therapy Diploma Program will prepare you to set up your own Clinical Herbal Practice. This program is the advanced studies in herbal medicine. DHC offers full-time classroom, distance learning, and special structured for physicians. Registration is now being accepted.
 * More than likely he did both. SERSeanCrane 22:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * More info on M.H. here. SERSeanCrane 22:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I suppose it's best to have the actual degree has has in the article, whether that means writing to Mindell or to the college in BC to find out. Badagnani 23:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * According to Marquis Who's Who, "...master, Dominion Herbal." Works for me. SERSeanCrane 01:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Scheme?
On a personal level, I think it's fine...but in wiki-speak, is "Pyramid Scheme" inherently POV? SERSeanCrane 14:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * That's why I changed the link to say "pyramid selling", although the page it links to is pyramid scheme. Later on there's a link to multi-level marketing. If you're worried about POV, change it to that, but that would just be cosmetic. On the pyramid scheme page it says:
 * Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) businesses function by recruiting salespersons to sell a product and offer additional bonus or sales commission if they recruit more salespersons as their "downline". New joiners may be required to pay for their own training / marketing materials, or to buy a significant amount of inventory. Thus it is possible that an MLM may be considered a pyramid scheme if salespersons are more concerned with recruiting a downline or if they must buy more product than they are ever likely to sell. A commonly adopted test of legality is that MLMs must derive 70% of their income from retail sales to non-members. The Federal Trade Commission offers advice for potential MLM members to help them identify those which are likely to be pyramid schemes.
 * Frankly, they sound much of a muchness to me... Famousdog 14:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Having known people involved with pyramid schemes (which is what I call them), they prefer to call it multi-level marketing (MLM). Garbage man or 'waste removal engineer'? Potato, potahto? Tomato, or To-Order call 555-5555. It's all the same, but one sounds less uh, accusative I guess. Both seem to cover the same material so I lean in favor of the more cosmetic choice. SERSeanCrane 18:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)