Talk:Earl of Moray

There are earls of Moray all over Scotland previous to the date stated here as first creation. See Scottish monarchs family tree for examples. Muriel 14:44, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Which of these (if any) is the bonnie Earl o'Moray?


 * That would be James Stewart, 2nd Lord Doune, husband of Elizabeth Stewart, 2nd Countess of Moray, who was Earl of Moray by right of his wife. Proteus (Talk) 13:08, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The earlier Earls here are surely Stewarts rather than Stuarts, although I cannot say for sure at what point the spelling changed, probably during the 16th century.PatGallacher (Talk) 23:40*, 08 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * My source calls them "Stewart" up to and including the 4th Earl, and "Stuart" thereafter, so I've change the article. Proteus (Talk) 23:58, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * I added some of the early ones. Ardric47 01:32, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Spelling of Mormaer/Mormaor
I chose to use the spelling "mormaor" because it is closest to the Scottish Gaelic "mórmhaor" and because it is the preferred spelling in the Oxford English Dictionary. Is there a better reason to use the other spelling? Ardric47 05:31, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Numbering of creations
Wait a minute. You may be right that Agnes Dunbar was never Countess of Moray, but if so then this raises questions about the numbering of the creations. Surely then her son John Dunbar was 1st Earl of Moray 2nd Creation, and the subsequent creations all go up one. Or is the numbering well established? Can you quote some serious reference work on the Scottish peerage, preferably an online one? We should avoid original research. PatGallacher 17:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

David Stewart?
The article on James II mentions a "David Stewart, Earl of Moray", 1456-1457, who died in infancy. RandomCritic 05:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

William Comyn, jure uxoris Earl of Buchan
There is a gap of about 100 years between the Moramers of Moray and the first Earls. William Comyn held the title "Warden of Moray" during this gap in time. Does anyone know if he fits in during this period as perhaps a stand in between the two periods? Bobbacon 09:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have also just found another source that specifically states he was appointed "guardian of the Earldom of Moray" in 1222 from Alexander II of Scotland. "Guardian" is not the same as Earl- perhaps this fills in the gap between the Moramers of Moray and the first Earls. The only assumption I can make is that perhaps the Scottish crown appoined people to look after the area during this time, as opposed to giving them a hereditary title? The exisiting Wikipedia article says he became warden of Moray in 1212. I think this is the same as guardian. If he recieved the title from Alexander II my guess is that the 1222 date is more likely than 1212 as he didnt become king until 1214. Bobbacon 08:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have found other "Guardians of Moray" (from Google...) these are "Sir Reginald le Chen" who was appointed by Edward I, I cannot find the dates for him, but I know there where in fact three Sir Reginald le Chens who were grandfather, father and son which confuses things a lot. Bobbacon 08:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The holders of the Earldom of Moray between William fitz Duncan and Randolph were the Scottish kings, although they never use the title of any of the earldoms they held. Effective administration of the earldom was conducted by the "thanes" (or toisechs) and the sheriffs in the coastal district, with the Lord of Badenoch controlling the interior (Badenoch was part of the "county" (i.e. Earldom or Mormaerdom) and bishopric of Moray). BTW, Mormaer and Earl were the same thing ... different terminology is just arbitrary convention which suits Moray fine, but is terrible for all the other earldoms/mormaerdoms. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 02:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Freemen of Moray
D.J. Gray in William Wallace (Barnes & Noble 1991) at pages 12-13, states: "Moray differed from  other earldoms by reason of a large number of men known as the 'freemen of Moray', who held their lands on condition that they gave the king military aid.  They were, in effect, a company of king's men who owned no feudal superior other than the rightful monarch, and were responsible for the garrisoning of royal castles.  Their lands were called 'castle lands' and were distinct from other Crown lands, whose owners merely raised their vassals in times of war but did not have the honour of garrisoning the king's fortifications.

"The province had a banner of its own--Vexillum Moraviae--which all who were granted their lands from the king were bound to follow."

I have not been able to determine from Gray's text during what era the freemen of Moray were created or to what monarch they owed their lands and duties. Gray cites Evan Macleod Barron's The Scottish War of Independence (Robert Carruthers & Sons, Inverness 1934) at 217, but I do not have access to that book. If anyone can cast any further light on these freemen, a discussion of them could perhaps be added to the article. Caldust55 (talk) 06:16, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * very interesting Caldust55. Thank you for the reference. I can not be sure, but my thinking is that the "freemen" may refer to the Thanes, in Old Norse þegn ("thane, franklin, freeman, man"). located in the region: Brodie, Dyke, Cawdor, Moyness, Cromdale, Kilmalmnock, Rathennech, Fochabers, and Molen. A good ref here: Medieval Scotland, Crown, Lordship and Community, Essays presented to G.W.S. Barrow, Edinburgh University Press, Part 3, Thanes Thanages, from the Eleventh to the Fourteenth Centuries, by Alexander Grant, and Appendix: Moray, Nairn. ISBN-10: 0748604189, ISBN-13: 978-0748604180. This reference notes the unusual character of the Moray Thanages (p.46): prior to 1130 did they belong to the crown or to the mormaers and earls? Geoffrey Barrow in "Badenoch and Strathspey, I", p.9 advances that they were Royal thanages, Grant accepts this as "certainly plausible". Accordingly, if they were not under the earls or another, but were directly under the king, they were "freemen" even prior to 1130. Later, according to Barrow/Grant, Scottish thanages were overwhelmingly royal [p.46-46], and the Thanes names were generally Gaelic [p.42] (Macbeth of Dyke, Hywan Macmallothen of Dairsie, etc). They were, in effect, a company of king's men who owned no feudal superior other than the rightful monarch to use your words. I have not been able to back up your reference to "military aid", however "the garrisoning of royal castles" is likely:-- in Barrow/Grant [p.48] the duties of the thanes include the "cain" and the "coveth"; the cain was a tribute to the king (e.g. cattle, cheese, pigs, chickens, etc payed to the king); coveth was hospitality dues to the king, refered to also as "waiting". [p.49] "Providing bases for the royal lordship", and early Scottish kings spent their time travelling from Thanage to Thanage, staying in the thanage's houses/castle (coveth), and collecting their cain. This may be what your references mean by garrisoning of royal castles. Czar Brodie (talk) 13:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Lancaster
There is no mention of the earldom Moray ("Henry Plantagenet, Duke of Lancaster (d. 1361)") in the article of Henry of Grosmont, 1st Duke of Lancaster, and besides - he was English, is it correct that he was made earl of Moray? --FinnWiki (talk) 12:12, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Nothing too in his ODNB biography. I'm removing that error. Regards, PurpleHz (talk) 18:33, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Erroneous Heraldry
The shield shown is certainly not that of the Earl of Moray, much less the earlier mormaers. It is, however, that of the de Moravia family, and can be seen in the arms of the present chief the Duke of Atholl. For Stewart Earls of Moray, see here http://europeanheraldry.org/royal.html Brendandh (talk) 09:34, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Fixed. Tinynanorobots (talk) 23:37, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Merger proposal
Per WP:CONTENTFORK, Mormaer of Moray should be merged with this page. The mormaer of Moray and the earl of Moray are the same thing; "mormaer" is just the Gaelic word for an earl. Zacwill16 (talk) 13:36, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, I understand your thinking on this one, but I would only endorse it if all of the article information from the Mormaer of Moray article is included, because a lot of hard work has gone into it which I personally contributed to. Obviously there would be some overlap of information which would have to be adjusted but the whole "History" section of the Mormaer of Moray article will need to be preserved.QuintusPetillius (talk) 10:49, 30 May 2015 (UTC)