Talk:Earth Kingdom

New ARMY Picture
Please get a new one...--Coallen 15:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Influences
"In many aspects, the Earth Kingdom is modeled on ancient Korea in terms of architecture and clothing (Song and her mother wear the Hanbok)"

This implies the primary influence for the Earth Kindom is ancient Korea, whereas the only supported instance was in fact the Hanbok. Other than those two characters, the majority of the Earth Kindom characters wear ancient Chinese hanfu clothing, such as in the episode The Great Divide or Avatar day. It is not unreasonable for the animators to put in a little of Korean culture as much of this is animated in Korea, but the country does not seem to be major or even significant influence for the Earth Kindom, or the rest of the world in Avatar The Last Airbender. As for the architecture much of the eastern asian nations, such as China, Japan and Korea have major similarities since both Japan and Korea were incluenced heavily from China, and thus many areas of the Earth Kindom have architecture that is ambiguous in origin and cannot be stated specifically as Korean.

---Earth Kingdom = China: -> Attire, (Great) Walled City, Largest Geographical Area/Population, The Emperor, State Police (Dai Li), Forbidden City, Rivalry with Japan (Fire Nation)

Fire Nation = Japan: -> Archipelago, Advanced Navy, Expansionist Campaign, Culture of Discipline, Body Armor (Samurai), Affinity with sun, Instilled nationalism, Rivalry with China (Earth Kingdom) Gr8moldy (talk) 18:58, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Nice notice, but it needs a source. Oh, and I formated your comment for readability, if you do not like it, I am sorry. Rau's Speak Page 19:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Siege of Ba Sing Se
For 600 days, General Iroh attacked Ba Sing Se. He lost his son at some point that is unknown. It is believed that he made his journey into the Spirit World at some point near when he lost his son. The evidence for this link is that Koh the Face Stealer has a face resembling Iroh slightly. The Northern Water Tribe city held the Moon Spirit, which allows for Waterbending. When threatened, the spirits took revenge upon Zhao after Tui returned, fueled by life force it once gave to Princess Yue. Through this, one can conclude that Ba Sing Se may hold the Earthbending spirit, or the spirit of the earth, that was somehow threatened by Iroh's son (or perhaps by Iroh himself). The true reason for his retreat may have had more to do with the spirits then he let on in 'The Spirit World'. Also of note is that this was the first indication he knew of the spirit world, and when we first knew of his siege upon it. The earthbenders have a gift of earth.


 * This may be possible, but at this point it's speculation, and we should wait until we have conclusive proof before including any of it in the article. Prototime 21:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Personal Opinions
Please refrain from putting personal opinions on the page, it's considered VANDALISM!!

Locations
Are all these side locations completely necessary on this page? I mean, does the Lee family pig farm really have a place here as some major location? H2P 05:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Where is the information to back the Ba Sing Se Monorail up? DoSho 01:55, 20 May 2006
 * I didn't know what to do about those because I wasn't sure if there was maybe information at the Nick site that I was missing. I think I might just remove it. H2P 07:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And there they go. Though the rest of them look like they need editing as well. H2P 07:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

From what I've been seeing, all this future epsiode info goes back to a forum post somewhere. Its interesting stuff, to be sure, but does NOT meet Wikipedia's requierments for a Reliable source, and thus should not be added to articles.--Fyre2387 16:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

And as for all the minor locations...since the first two books (seasons) are set almost entirely within the Earth Kingdom, perhaps we should make an article called "Minor Earth Kingdom Locations" and move the minor places there, with only major cites and so forth on the Earth Kingdom article.--Fyre2387 18:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I would agree with this. I don't think there is a reason to list all of the 20 some episode locations here. With the Earth Kingdom being the main location, to list all of them would make the page hard to read. Many of the "sites" are small little areas that have no real meaning and unless you've watched the episodes 10x a piece, you won't have any idea where that location came from. H2P 20:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a good idea to me (though unfortunately, all of the recently-added locations will need to have their descriptions written over from scratch, as they were plagairized from Nick.com). Prototime 05:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Better idea, let's just make the location List of Minor Earth Kingdom Locations, and then just delete the locations on the Earth Kingdom page all together. Solves two problems for the time being. H2P 06:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Someone recently added them in again... I somewhat cleaned up their mess, but do we still need to decide on where this info should go? I like the idea of a List of minor Earth Kingdom locations page, H2P. --Tryforceful 22:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, like as stated above, most the new locations listed are probably just plagarized from Nick.com. Let me double check. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 05:18, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I went bold and moved all those locations to that page. They need to be rewritten and the page needs a new design. But atleast now they are off this one. I left Ba Sing Se because it will be a main location soon as well as constantly mentioned, although it's paragraph needs change too. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 20:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

De-centralized Earth Kingdom?
Concerning the "Government" and "Military" sections, a lot of text indicates that the Earth Kindgom is a decentralized power that seems to operate more as an alliance of independent city-states. While I agree that there are definetley different levels of govenrment in the Earth Kingdom, with cities having a limited degree of autonomy, I really doubt that likening the Earth Kindgom to what sounds like more of a confederation than a full nation is accurate, and in many ways I feel cannot be justified given what we currently know about the Earth Kindgom. What are your thoughts on this? Prototime 05:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think we should see how Ba Sing Se's government works in the next few episodes before we make any speculative changes even if it's obvious the Earth Kingdom isn't really a complete Kingdom. I think the name might have come when Chin conquered most the nation. We'll see what's going on soon that's for sure. H2P 06:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I wonder if the kings of major Earth Kingdom cities just act as mayors and still have to report to the Earth king, as the nation does have a central ruler. The cities must have some autonomy for kings, but they may work as a federation under the Earth king. Perhaps each city were independent states in the past and the term "king" was kept. Maybe the cities were given kings so a ruler like Chin the great didn't come to power again, but has a central ruler to maintain order. Please reply. 75.39.157.15 05:23, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Largest Army?
This article states that the Earth kingdom has the largest army, but I'm not so sure. Biggest kingdoms don't always have the largest armies. Factors like conscription, nationalism, militarism of culture and others can allow smaller nations to have big armies. So unless this fact is confirmed by the show it should be removed. And besides has it even been said that the Earth kingdom is largest in population? Largest in size doesn't mean largest population. Jztinfinity 20:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. In the article is says that the Fire Nation's navy is superior to the Earth Kingdom's. If there are more ships, then there are more people to control them. With that plus all those land troops running around, that may mean the Fire Nation is more populus. Plus on the Nick web site they keep saying the Fire Nation can't be defeated since the army/navy is too numerous in numbers.75.39.157.15 05:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Better and larger navies do not imply larger armies. Island nations that deal with a lot of water inevitably have better experience of water fighting than land-based ones. England had the greatest navy in the world until the 20th century and its native population was always less than countries like Russia, Spain and France. When Japan invaded Korea in the late 16th century, Japanese armies far outnumbered Korean ones but the Korean navy was far superior by virtue of technology. Hell, if larger/better navies = larger troop strength, then the US has a larger military froce than China!


 * Just so you know, I said may mean not "does mean" or is. 75.36.7.133 03:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

List of Minor Earth Kingdom Locations
On the List of Minor Earth Kingdom Locations, there is a list similar to the one in this page. Shouldn't the list on this page be put onto the LoMEKL page, or even the LoMEKL page merged into this one?Sandmouse 16:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The reason we created the LomEKl page is to clear this page up for the more major locations listed here: Kyoshi Island, which has been seen twice, and its warriors three times, and the major cities of Omashu and Ba Sing Se. The locations at LomEKl are of less importance. --Herald Alberich 17:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, but wouldn't it be easier to add that page to this one? It's not like it takes up too much room or anything.Sandmouse 02:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * See the Locations discussion above. I wasn't personally involved with the move of the locations to a separate page, but it looks like H2P and Fyre2387 decided that they did indeed take up too much room on this page. I'd talk to them about it, if I were you, but I do want to note that the descriptions at LomEKl are kinda crappy at the moment, and once someone rewrites them to be as complete as they should be, they will take up quite a significant amount of room, more than they really deserve on the main Earth Kingdom page. --Herald Alberich 03:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * They were actually quite a bit longer before, but it turned out a good portion of the content was plagiarized from Nickelodeon's site. Its on my list of things to improve, unfortunately, its a pretty big task, and I don't have the time I'd like to. I've been thinking of things to do with it, though, mainly looking into getting descriptions of minor locations on the episode they appeared on. I'll have more detail on the talk page for LomEKl soon.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 05:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I originally created it because someone kept coming in and adding them to this page, most of it being pure plagarism. Those locations listed on that article are very minor locations and have no real merit on the show. Earth Kingdom settings constitute more than 75% of the episodes out there, to put them all on this page would make it much to long. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 06:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Earth Kingdom Government and Army
The earth kingdom government and army is similar that of the German Empire of the first world war. Germany was a unified kingdom with a central government and emperor, but the proviences and cities still retain their hereditary rulers( who rule like governors and mayors). In Germany, Prussia was the strongest of the princedoms, so it was the leader of the empire. In the Earth Kingdom, Ba Sing Sa is the strongest provence so it is the head of the kingdom. Also, each of the princedoms in the German Empire( and there were four of them) had their own, independant army. Yet at times of war these armies would work together as a single orginization. Each german army had it's own wniforms, but they were similar in shape and style to there sister states. In the Earth Kingdom, this explaines why the army uniforms look alike, yet sorta different. This information should ba added to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.16.21.215 (talk • contribs)
 * If we added every possible reference to historical events Avatar may contain to the various Avatar articles, the actual information about the show would get buried. As interesting as it is to speculate about Avatar's inspirations and as likely as some of those may be, it's still speculation, and Wikipedia is not the place for it, until and unless the show's creators confirm said inspirations as fact. --Herald Alberich 04:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Still Start?
Are we sure it's still "Start?" It's been June since it's been tagged Start and seems to have improved greatly. I can easily this article GA, with its extent of information and highly sophisticated vocabulary so...anybody else agree that it should be upgraded to a B? GeneralIroh (Leave a message after the beep if you gotta problem.) 03:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Good thought, I agree. --Herald Alberich 03:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Dai Li and Avatar Kyoshi
In the Comic of Chapter Two on the Escape from the Spirit World online game, we learn that the Dai Li were trained by Avatar Kyoshi. Should we include this? Aang-kai 19:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Most likely. Bagpipeturtle 00:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Color Clothes
Ok, the Fire Nation wears red for fire and Water Tribe wears blue for the blue sky light reflecting off the water (expect for the Foggy Swamp wearing green, for the green water), and the Air Nomads wear Yellow, because the yellow sun light fills the air. So if rocks are brown and tan, why does the Earth Kingdom wear green. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.107.220.167 (talk) 17:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Because who wants to wear brown? See Imprisoned. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 18:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * About the Air Nomads, I'm not sure you got that one correct. If anything, its the Fire Nation that holds the Sun dear to them, is it gives them strength and is the most powerful source of fire in the world. In any case, all of the nations get their colors from their respective seasons. The season for the Water Tribes is Winter, their colors of blues and whites reflect the snow, ice, and especially the ocean. The Earth Kingdom's season is spring, and they more strictly adhere to this with their greens and yellows. Consequently earth in spring is covered by grass. Summer is the season of the Fire Nation. They seem to wear dark red as the fire burning within them is filled with willpower, yet tainted with pride, and lust for power. It seems very fitting for the antagonists of the show. The season for the Air Nomads is fall, the yellows and red-browns match the colors of the changing leaves. These soft colors are peaceful and tranquil. Just as the leaves may be carried away from the tree by the wind, the Air Nomads too float off wherever they please, letting fate take them wherever they may wind up. 72.234.46.143 13:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Terra Team
Ok since you must have discussion. I say remove Terra Team. They were there for all of 5 minutes and we hardly know anything about them for them to be important. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 03:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh comon now, don't be like that. Like I like it any more than you do. Eh every can give but no likes takin. Lotta likes. Yeah so anyway, they're openly identied as the protectors of the walls of the capitol city (complete with a punny name), they are shown in action, we have enough information for them to apply to the page thingie, and I go on but like I said, don't really particularly care for them. I'm just followin protocol thingie. Its troublesome but eh. ~Father's Wish 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * First, we don't have to talk about everything, just stuff that's debated. Anywho, I really don't think we need this, at least not here. A character page mention, and maybe something on the Ba Sing Se article, should be plenty.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 03:22, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * See how this stuff goes back and forth? Just wait. Either in the end it actually did help in particular case. ~Father's Wish 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Earth King is Fab.jpg
Image:Earth King is Fab.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:27, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for
I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to |the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 06:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:City of Walls and Secrets- Dai Lee.JPG
Image:City of Walls and Secrets- Dai Lee.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Shortening?
I just logged on to find that the article has been shortened to only a few paragraphs by User:Parent5446. I personally feel this is a shame. Previously, the article was very in-depth, as any encyclopedic article should be. It had a lot of useless and trivial information, but almost all Wikipedia articles do, and that shouldn't be too big a deal as long as the important part is larger than the trivial part. Since Parent5446 raided the page, I feel that the article is now just a boring summary of an otherwise extremely interesting and long topic, the Earth Kingdom in the show Avatar: The Last Airbender. Although the article is about a fictional nation, ther is a complex and interesting history to the nation itself. Although the article was long, it was still very interesting. Also, there are likely hundreds, maybe thousands, of Wikipedia Articles which are much longer, less interesting, and have not needed summarizing or splitting. In fact, there are probably some Featured Articles which are longer than this. I feel that the trivial things did need removal, but the important and encyclopedic information should have remained. Sadly, important (or at the very least interesting) information about the Earth Kingdom and its back-story was removed. Now, all that remains of the article is one paragraph about the Dai Li, another about the Army, two paragraphs in the introduction, and a single image showing Earth Kingdom soldiers earthbending their discs, preparing to launch. The article actualy does not even mention the discs that the Dai Li launch at enemies. The article is now so short that this comment is probably about as long as the article itself.

See the difference yourself:


 * The current version (at time of writing):


 * The last version before User:Parent5446 happened:


 * Lastly, the diff for those two:


 * &mdash;– Nuck Chorris (talk) 02:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * He removed unsourced and trivial material. All that is in the article is the material that can be sourced. If you can source it, I don't see why anyone would object to it's return. Rau's Speak Page 11:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Errr...I'm sorry, but that claim is a joke. Did you actually look at the diffs? A huge chunk of that was sourced, and was not all trivial. Trimming is one thing, but this a freaking lobotomy. I'm reverting it. Removing that much article content with no discussion at all is absurd.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 22:24, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I did. The only times a ref was removed was when the information was not in the ref provided, with a few exceptions. I consider that the same thing as unsourced. Rau's Speak Page 22:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't agree. I'm not saying there was nothing like that, but its far from true of all of that was removed. If the article does end up in that state, it might as well be deleted, because there was next to no content left. There's better ways to improve hurting articles than making them into stubs.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 23:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The plan was to merge this with the other three and Spirit World. That idea was formed during Spirit Worlds AfD. No one ever said it would remain a stub. Rau's Speak Page 23:44, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Even if that were the case, there should still have been at least some discussion about that? At the very least, shouldn't there have been some sort of notice here?  And there definitely was sourced and encyclopedic content there.  I worked hard to design SVG images of each of the four nation's emblems, and I made sure to write up fair use rationales and gather the images I used as reference in the process of making the SVG images.  I even included the source I used to get the  colors from.  And now, the emblems are all remove from the articles in just a matter of days. &mdash;– Nuck Chorris (talk) 17:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Eh, you want a discussion? You got one. Now if you have a problem, revert back to the old versions and discuss. I personally have no problem with it, aside from the severity of it all. Rau's Speak Page 18:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)