Talk:East Bay Ray

Luv his work
his work with frenchy was great.

Didn't he produce one or two of the earlier MDC albums? --Jkonrath 23:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

DOB?
Could use some birth information.

i heard he actually wasn't influenced by surf music at all, more the old western music and stuff like that. if i (or anyone else) can find a source for this, it should be changed.

Style
As a guitarist & musician, I will readily verify that the guitar work is largely vertical-scale oriented, rather than horizontal box-style, for most of DK's signature sound, and this is what surf music is all about. Additionally, while most punk bands based their songs on common pentatonic (blues & rock & roll) technique & I, IV, V chord progressions, DK was different in that it also drew from jazz progressions & scales. This is one of the reasons few bands sound like DK, their music is NOT at all easy to play, and requires musicianship beyond the likes of the everyday player.

I have cleaned up the introductory paragraph, to remove weasel words (whether they were intentional or not), and replace them with objective & correct musical terminology.

The paragraph had been written by someone attempting a fanzine-like review style, but it was derogatory, because the guitar style was anything but "spastic". Anyone who disputes this should sit down with a guitar & the DK catalog... you will soon see that what sounds like 'simple punk' is actually VERY complicated.

Themes in some of the songs are derived from the old TV spaghetti westerns. Nothing is cut & dry, Ray drew from VERY diverse musical styles in his compositions. That is why their music still sounds fresh... nobody else has done anything on par with it in punk rock, because it stands by itself as a collection of styles that aren't commonly associated with one another.

Glad to be of service.

UNIXcoffee928 14:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Now a Wikipedian?
Maybe we should add to this talk page. I suspect Ray of contributing as User:Dead-kennedys, considering the recent vandalism this person has done to Biafra's article and other DK related articles in an attempt to make them look more favorable towards Ray. -- LGagnon 15:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Go for it. If it turns out to be incorrect, it can always be removed. --Cjmarsicano 18:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

NPOV dispute
Information is cited that supports one view while important information that opposes it is omitted, resulting in this section pushing a certain point of view. The whole anti-corporate discussion has a faulty premise, licensing to major film corporations was done by the band since the beginning, “Neighbors,” 1981,“Class,” 1983. Black Flag did a skateboard video. Lengthy discussion of the court case would seem to be more appropriate on Dead Kennedys. Here’s a suggested simplified version of this paragraph, or leave this issue out all together:


 * "In the late 90's, East Bay Ray headed the legal struggle that restored the ownership of Dead Kennedys intellectual property to the band and to secure royalties that Jello Biafra was found by the courts to have defrauded from his fellow bandmates. Biafra claims he did not defraud them.” http://www.phillaw.com/html/dkappeal.html

the factual section of the appeals document verifies Ray being one of the founders of Alternative Tentacles Records

Again, no source is given for the “critics & fans” opinion, and could be there just push a point of view. Ray's studio credits can be verified by the CD’s, the old Alternative Tentacles CD, “Give Me Convenience or Give Me Death” and http://www.guitarplayer.com/story.asp?sectioncode=8&storycode=13455 Other projects http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:3d9fs33ba3rg~T1

Mediation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-04-27_Dead_Kennedy -- Bob


 * What a bunch of crap, "bob". Everyone knows that the "legal struggle" was because the solo records and post-DK bands were terrible. I dare you to find one single positive review for Skrapyard. Ask anyone in attendence at The Chris Grayson memoral.

"Everyone knows" is not a verifiable source. And from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view "There should not be any tone of either hagiography or hatchet job."


 * The reverts are getting silly... I've read the last number of revisions back to the revision as of 06:44, 27 April 2006... That particular edit is likely the most grossly POV laden one of the bunch, sounding like a poorly written press release with words like "voodoo" and "paranoid" used as adjectives where they make no sense. That alone doesn't make the piece POV, just bad.  The last handful of edits appear to be a couple people trying to state that the article is POV in a different way.  The latest revision now has two POV boxes for some reason... If you're going to revert, list the EXACT reasons on the talk page. Xinit 20:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I've also noticed the two citations for passages which claim that Biafra used "... the assistance of a large corporate law firm specializing in defending toxic polluters and insurance companies against patients, was found guilty of defrauding the band" do not lead to any source information. These should be verified, made to coincide with NPOV or deleted. Progkeeg 19:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Read the citation more close. Biafra did not, Ray did, and it's been cited, cross-referenced, and external-linked.Rsm99833 04:33, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, there is no current discussion relating to them, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues if warranted.Jjdon (talk) 19:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Press release writing?
"East Bay Ray crafted a distant and driving guitar style that was clever, cinematic and epically paranoid in sound" -- Sounds like marketing speak; how does a guitar SOUND paranoid? Does it talk about black helicopters? Xinit 19:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

What is a "distant" guitar style? Did someone mean to write "distinct?"


 * Agreed. Taking that part out.Rsm99833 14:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion: "Biafra, with the assistance of a large corporate law firm, Carroll, Burdick & McDonough LLP, specializing in defending toxic polluters and insurance companies against patients, "... - This bit about the law firm's other clients really has nothing to do with EBR, IMHO. Suggest removing the 'specalizing in' clause above. TVN 23:00 28 July 2006


 * Doesn't work, as that Biafra was *not* represented by that firm- EBR & Dead Kennedys were. Rsm99833 03:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, my bad. I'm removing the notation, as that there is no notation that is who represented Biafra. If there is, please provide. ThanksRsm99833 03:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Reverting good information with the bad?
There's entire chunks of what would seem to be good information being reverted with the POV accusations and such... why is this sort of of being wiped too?

''After Dead Kennedys stopped touring in March 1986, East Bay Ray played guitar on a range of projects including an Algerian Raï music album for Cheika Rimitti called Sidi Mansour, which also featured Red Hot Chili Peppers bassist Flea (musician) and Robert Fripp, to garage-pop with Pearl Harbour and exotica lounge music with Frenchy. He composed and recorded a sound track for an early independent film by David Segal and Scott McGhee, who later made the film noir movie The Deep End.''

Xinit 21:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I just put that particular part back then. Just don't restore Ray's POV edits. --Cjmarsicano 21:11, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Cool; I wasn't sure why it was flipping in and out and it's easier to ask than get in the way. Xinit 21:20, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

More deleted information restored, sources are given. Maybe both sides could please re-read WP:BLP and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial? And there does seem to a dispute.

Dispute
I've tended to be highly skeptical of the revisionism on the part of "Bob" aka Dead Kennedys. But in this case, I do feel that "critics and fans have found these..to be be unremarkable and quite forgettable" is very strong for an encyclopedia article, no matter how accurate it may or may not be. After all, if they were "fans" of Ray--then they by definition would not be dissmissive of the records. I can see no citations or compelling reasons for keeping this sentence in, so I'm going to remove it.


 * Looked over the change. Looks like a good re-write. Rsm99833 02:27, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Nephew of East Bay Ray
That's me, S Pepperell. As there is currently a NPOV dispute on this page, I can find out the information you want from my uncle himself, including birth information and what he was influenced by. I can also confirm whether or not the user 'deadkennedys' is in fact Ray. Once you acknowledge this, I will phone him asking the necessary questions Seriphyn 10:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
Biafra did approve the Tony Hawk video, a valid source is given, deleting that information is done by a person with some personal grudge against Ray. 70.132.10.245 18:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Thinly veiled attacks on Jello Biafra.
The article is riddled with attacks on Jello Biafra, most of which are completely irrelevant to the section that they're in. This one in particular, found in the Career section...
 * Ray authorized and had a production credit for a CD of live Dead Kennedys recordings, Mutiny on the Bay, which Biafra claims is of poor quality. However, several reviewers disagree.

...has absolutely nothing at all to do with East Bay Ray's career. Someone should add a section devoted to the dispute, if it's a big enough deal to warrant comments thrown in to sections that they don't belong in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CapitalistOverlord (talk • contribs) 18:11, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

And yet here we are a decayed, nearly, later and that dogshit line which is why I came to this talk page (which I don't even fucking like to do because I know how toxic these things are)is still in there. For shame... forgot to look on this page was last edited maybe it was 2011.

And truly whoever is the bigger asshole in this dispute, and this is purely an aside,it's one of the saddest stories in music history. Lying Lyndon Johnson&#39;s Johnson (talk) 08:46, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

This entire article reads like it was written by Ray and links to his website & not much else. Entire sections need to be deleted if there are no secondary sources to back up any of the claims, including biography. -Chimino (talk) 14:28, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

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