Talk:East Palestine, Ohio, train derailment/Archive 1

Train in two states?
I haven't found a RS for this, but it's logical that with the approximate length of the train per the number of cars, which would be around a mile-and-a-half, that the front of the train was in Pennsylvania. If I do find a RS, would this be notable or trivia? I know that the derailed cars left the track wholly in Ohio so that wouldn't change. Mapsax (talk) 01:43, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Irrelevant. Disaster article doesn't need a 'trivia' section. Ohio state officials and the Ohio Emergency Management Agency are the ones responsible for cleanup efforts and disaster management/declarations, etc, etc. Only involvement Pennsylvania has that is noteworthy is the impact that the burning of the chemicals had on the parts of the state within the area. TSwanyIRL (talk) 02:27, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Steve Lookner
Why does it say "Steve Lookner" at the very top of the page? GamerKlim9716 (talk) 21:07, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That was vandalism by 78.67.14.24, reverted 10 minutes later. – wbm1058 (talk) 02:16, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

As this relates to the labor dispute
I think this catastrophe is related enough to the ongoing railroad labor dispute that resulted in executive action that prevented railroad workers from legally striking. It's hard to demonstrate a causal relationship between executive order and environmental tragedy, but maybe it's at least worth a mention? 2600:8800:118:6D00:0:0:0:BDAB (talk) 01:51, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm for the inclusion of this labor dispute. Part of this tragedy was caused by train cars not being inspected well enough as employees only had 90 seconds to do so instead of their previous 3 minutes. Union action was attempting to improve working conditions, including this aspect. A link could be inserted in the "See also" section.  Safyrr  13:26, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You would need RS that demonstrates a connection to the labor dispute. Do you have that?  Sectionworker (talk) 15:10, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you are talking to me or the other person, but I don't think the connection to the labour dispute is strong enough to warrant its own section in the article (at least, with what I know). I think just a mention in "See also" is appropriate.


 * I see a lot of speculation online though that the accident is partly caused by corporate greed, which union action could of maybe theoretically fought against. So, if over time more articles like this  pop up, and people want to create a section about this type of speculation, then I would support it.  Safyrr  17:55, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Putting it in the "see also" list is suggestively editorializing. There needs to be a reliable source for it to be mentioned in the article --- there are mentions of the labor dispute in articles from The Hill and the New York Times, so it's reasonable to include it in the text (maybe in the background, or in an "aftermath" or "public reaction" section. Biktor627 (talk) 07:50, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Photo
I'm not experienced with this kind of stuff Trade (talk) 03:08, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * A barnstar for the local who took that photo, and if you're watching here, please help clear up the licensing issue to ensure that we can keep the picture in this article. Thanks, wbm1058 (talk) 12:42, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I told him how we can solve the licensing issue. Currently waiting for a response Trade (talk) 15:38, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Could be concern about this thing I found on twitter.
https://twitter.com/FalconryFinance/status/1625872327568420864/photo/1

https://twitter.com/FalconryFinance/status/1625875297483763712/photo/2

Is it true or false?. Is everyone in that area doomed. Is everyone in that area doomed to die a early death? I live in Maine does that mean I am f***ed. It scaring me. GALee246 (talk) 10:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * According to the Twitter account anyone disagreeing with them are being paid to do so. Not really reliable source Trade (talk) 13:01, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Notable unreliable source, mostly satire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.41.32 (talk) 15:48, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

screening level
We need an explanation of what the term "screening level" means. It's used twice in the article as it stands now. Nowhere in the article is the term defined. The EPA document in the footnote has a short section about "screening level" but even that does not offer a particularly cogent definition. For example, it's not clear whether "minimal risk level" and "screening level" are the same thing. 69.161.125.36 (talk) 13:49, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Vinyl chloride
It hasn't come up in the article, but the the media links refer to this this as a toxin which is incorrect: Vinyl chloride is a poison (there's no known biological origin of vinyl chloride). 24.51.192.49 (talk) 15:11, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * So I suppose toxicant is the correct term here. I tweaked the article. Now we only see the term "toxin" in the references section. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:32, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That's probably an even more correct term. The article on vinyl chloride does in fact state it may be produced through biological processes.  The industrial vinyl chloride discussed here most certainly isn't, however, so I think toxicant is probably the more accurate term.  24.51.192.49 (talk) 21:13, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Serious omission
There is a serious omission in the current version of this article: 20 miles and a whole hour before the train got to East Palestine, one of its malfunctioning car axles was captured on fire by a security camera in Salem, Ohio. This seems really too important a piece of background information to leave out. Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/video-shows-sparks-or-flames-20-miles-before-train-derailment-in-east-palestine/ 76.190.213.189 (talk) 04:36, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * That might not be the only omission... -- Seelefant (talk) 18:36, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * While that's all reasonably sketchy, UAE Exotic Falconry & Finance is not really what I'd consider to be a reliable sources...Biktor627 (talk) 08:09, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Details are still emerging regularly about the event, and given the refusal of national media to actively cover the issue up until this point I'm going to take a wild guess (/s) and say that there's a lot we still don't know. Article will be updated as those details emerge. So not as much a serious omission as just new details that have yet to be included. TSwanyIRL (talk) 02:31, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

The derailment and fire were covered extensively throughout the world's media from the day after the derailment through to as of now the 17th of Feb. Stating that the media have not been covering this is incorrect. RLS 84 (talk) 10:50, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

RIN 2130-AC47
The braking system being discussed here was only for unattended cars, not moving cars. As stated in DOT ruling RIN 2130-AC47.

The ruling states:
 * "This rulemaking would amend the brake system safety standards for freight and other non-passenger trains and equipment to ensure better compliance of the requirements relating to the securement of unattended equipment. Specifically, FRA would codify some of the requirements already included in its Emergency Order Establishing Additional Requirements for Attendance and Securement of Certain Freight Trains and Vehicles on Mainline Track or Mainline Siding Outside of a Yard or Terminal ("Emergency Order 28"). 78 FR 48218 (Aug. 7, 2013). Amendments to FRA's existing regulations would include additional securement requirements for unattended equipment, primarily for those that include cars containing certain hazardous materials, and additional communication requirements relating to job briefings and securement verification. This rulemaking was recently downgraded to nonsignificant and will not appear on next month's report." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.125.151 (talk) 20:52, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

C'mon 27.32.125.151, are you working for Norfolk Southern?

Here is the text of that rule which arose out of safety concerns following the Lac-Mégantic rail disaster. It established specific additional requirements: That was to mitigate the risk of a parked, unattended train rolling down into a town.
 * All hand brakes must be fully applied on all locomotives in the lead consist of an unattended train.
 * All hand brakes must be fully applied on all locomotives in an unattended locomotive consist outside of yard limits.
 * The minimum requirement for an unattended locomotive consist within yard limits is that the hand brake must be fully applied on the controlling locomotive.
 * Railroads must develop, adopt, and comply with procedures for securing any unattended locomotive that is not equipped with an operative hand brake.

The braking system discussed in this article, electronically controlled pneumatic brakes, are brakes used to slow and stop moving trains, not parking brakes! wbm1058 (talk) 03:15, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The section of the article under Background, "Brakes" doesn't clearly state the association with the article in question. It isn't clear whether brakes were involved in this accident or not. Some narrative and cited sources explaining how this relates to the article would be much appreciated. Otherwise, the read looks like it was thrown in as a particular Wikipedian's speculation about the cause, which isn't encyclopedic. So much as we want answers, the cause really should come from the investigation report of the NTSB. 98.191.147.19 (talk) 07:01, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * For the cause we have to wait until an official report is made. The reason I put the link to the RIN 2130-AC47 Rule is because this is the Rule that is being quoted in newspapers. And it is being quoted out of context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.235.43.141 (talk) 23:10, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen the newspaper stories quoting this rule. Perhaps they quote it as part of a more general background on previous hazmat derailments. This Wikipedia article isn't quoting this rule, so it's a non-issue here. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:53, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Conspiracy
Should the conspiracies surrounding the incident be mentioned? Trade (talk) 18:39, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * What conspiracies? wbm1058 (talk) 18:44, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That the U.S. government are deliberately concealing or otherwise hiding the scale and environmental damage and health hazards of the accident Trade (talk) 21:08, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Source? InedibleHulk (talk) 21:25, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

--Trade (talk) 23:04, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * https://newrepublic.com/article/170628/conspiracy-ohio-train-derailment-right-front-us
 * https://reason.com/2023/02/17/ohio-train-derailment-is-another-excuse-for-mudslinging-and-conspiracy-theorizing/
 * https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/02/16/fact-check-no-ohio-train-derailment-wasnt-false-flag-operation/11263235002/
 * https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/ohio-train-derailment-conspiracy-fact-check-b2284691.html
 * https://www.wired.com/story/east-palestine-ohio-train-derailment-tiktok/
 * https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7g8x8/the-conspiracy-verse-thinks-fake-ufos-are-a-distraction-from-a-disastrous-train-derailment
 * https://www.newsweek.com/series-chemical-accidents-sparks-flood-conspiracy-theories-1781798
 * Proposed addition(s)? InedibleHulk (talk) 23:26, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I tried finding your claim in that pile and couldn't (that European USA Today didn't even let me look). Could you copy and paste a sentence you think is close enough? If so, I'd appeciate it. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:03, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Let's just pick which conspiracy is mentioned by enough reliable sources. Trade (talk) 00:07, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The one where They conspired to distract us with UFOs. That's my first choice, anyway. If I have to choose. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:10, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, it should be included. I'd suggest including it as a new subsection in the Reactions section.  Some articles that can serve as good templates for how and where to discuss it are 2017 Las Vegas shooting and South African Airways Flight 295.  Biktor627 (talk) Biktor627 (talk) 23:49, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * What is "it"? InedibleHulk (talk) 23:54, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The one where vinyl chloride has contaminated the Ohio River Trade (talk) 00:10, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * How the hell is a chemical contamination a conspiracy? And, as I told you, that site doesn't let me in. But I'm listening. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:12, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Here's the claim: ''"A Feb. 13 Facebook post (direct link, archived link) shows screenshots of several social media posts on the Feb. 3 Ohio train derailment.
 * "THIS WAS PLANNED / BY DESIGN / FALSE FLAG," reads part of the post. "New reports indicate deadly vinyl chloride has contaminated the Ohio River as far as West Virginia, a water source for over 5 million.""
 * Perhaps you can access through this archive link?
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20230217210417/https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/02/16/fact-check-no-ohio-train-derailment-wasnt-false-flag-operation/11263235002/ Biktor627 (talk) 00:20, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * "But contrary to the post’s claim, vinyl chloride has not been detected to date in the Ohio River – a water source for about 5 million people, Ray told USA TODAY in an email." Trade (talk) 00:35, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I can read that, thanks. So what I see is a Facebook post with only 500 shares, which you and I and USA Today seem to agree is bullshit. There was no conspiracy here, nor even a contamination. Why are we discussing it again? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:48, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

When you say "conspiracies", do you mean lies? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It's fear-mongering designed to soften people up. No, they haven't detected it downstream, yet, but it's coming... be afraid, be very afraid. Just vote for your authoritarian-in-waiting who will solve it all for you.
 * People are acting like this is so novel, comparing it with a nuclear power meltdown... well look what I just found at . There's nothing here new under the sun. We just have a very different political environment today than back in 1986.


 * Doesn't look like we have an article about that, but it happened before-Internet. Surely made national news, but I have no recollection. – wbm1058 (talk) 01:19, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Whatever it is, it has begun. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:18, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Is it really notable that somebody said something stupid on Facebook? Were there any notable false claims, or did anybody act on them in a way that was destructive, or is it just posts about posts about posts? jp×g 09:15, 18 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Notable enough for the news to start write about it appareantly Trade (talk) 15:45, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Describe amount of hazardous material?
I can't find a source that specifies or estimates the amount of hazardous materials released. Including that might be helpful to understand the impact. The wiki page does say that 50 cars derailed, and 20 were carrying hazardous materials.

This article suggests 1.1 million pounds of vinyl chloride was released, but that's based on a law firm's claims who is suing Norfolk Southern. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/02/16/train-derailment-norfolk-southern-vinyl-chloride-ohio/11274194002/ Ericandrewlewis (talk) 04:09, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There may be something of use here: https://response.epa.gov/sites/15933/files/TRAIN%2032N%20-%20EAST%20PALESTINE%20-%20derail%20list%20Norfolk%20Southern%20document.pdf jp×g 09:16, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Original research
@98.191.147.19 can you please explain how the breaks section is "original research?"  Crusader 1096  (message) 02:37, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Their edit summary said Flagged brake section as possibly "Original Research". Please add narrative to tie the portion about the brakes into the narrative of the article and cite sources. The citation provided indicates the fault was a wheel bearing. I don't see the complaint as "Wikipedia editors are performing original research on the service performance and cost-effectiveness of ECP brakes, and the politics of mandating their use" (to determine whether they're broken LOL). The complaint I'm hearing is more one of WP:Synthesis of published material, i.e. the same issue discussed in the next section. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:08, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 10 February 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Clear consensus against changing "derailment" to "disaster", due to the preference in sourcing for the former and due to the subjective issues with the latter per WP:DISASTER. Rough consensus against including East Palestine as too specific and obscure. However, no consensus that the current title is the best title for this topic; a new move proposal with a clear target that takes into account the result of this RM may find a consensus. (non-admin closure) BilledMammal (talk) 08:29, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

2023 Ohio train derailment → 2023 East Palestine, Ohio rail disaster – The effects and scale of this accident are exceeding that of the train derailment itself, so it may be time to change the name of this article. TSwanyIRL (talk) 23:22, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Procedural note. Mid discussion, the nominator has changed their requested title from 2023 Ohio vinyl chloride disaster
 * to 2023 East Palestine, Ohio chemical disaster
 * to 2023 East Palestine, Ohio rail disaster. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:37, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * What does this mean for all discussion prior to this time? Are they now void or do they still have meaning when talking about why the old title should be supported/opposed? RPI2026F1 (talk) 21:28, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, chemical disaster was an error on my end. So really, discussion only shifted from the first to the third title. Regardless, no, the arguments prior should not be void, as they in part led to the changing of the proposed title in the first place. And no one should be opposed to the proposed title changing again as the discussion continues. I see proposed titles as malleable, and should in the end move to whatever can be settled on — but my focus is more on changing it to something other than "train derailment". Whether the title says East Palestine or Ohio or both, I don't have a very strong opinion on, though I lean more towards simply Ohio to avoid confusion. TSwanyIRL (talk) 02:36, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose this is not in keeping with how we name train crashes. it should really be 2023 East Palestine Train Derailment. Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊  02:15, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * For example consider the San Bernardino train disaster aka Cajon Pass. the gas pipeline is better known than the derailment but its causation beignet he accident and subsequent repair work makes its current title better San Bernardino Pipeline Explosion. Perhaps 2023 East Palestine Train Disaster will be a suitable compromise, it not solely a redirect. I'll begin making redirects for this page later today. Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊  15:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Im just gonna say that I find any concerns about Palestine and EP unpersuasive. "east palestine" is not commonly used to refer to a region of the Middle East, there are numerous Palestines around the world, and viewers of this article won't be confused because they can quickly determine what nation.region this occurred in. using EP vs OH doesn't matter to be, but I dislike EP,OH. Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊  00:58, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with this statement, since the real issue is that the train crashed. The vinyl chloride is the aftermath of the train crash but it's not the only way vinyl chloride can be leaked into the environment. RPI2026F1 (talk) 15:06, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There's enough inconsistencies at Category:Derailments in the United States that "2023 EP, OH xyz" would work as well as "2023 OH xyz". Category:Railway accidents and incidents in Ohio doesn't have enough entries so we don't have to worry about confusions of "which 2023 Ohio disaster am I clicking on?" Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊  18:00, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I prefer keeping &#8220;Ohio&#8221; in the title; Palestine is in the Middle East. Bwrs (talk) 17:44, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * We could spend a whole day talking about weird naming schemes. New York, Ukraine is a real thing. RPI2026F1 (talk) 23:14, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Taking Ohio out of the name would be deeply misleading, as most readers would naturally assume this is about the middle east. Ph0dder (talk) 09:48, 13 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose Agreed with above comment, in addition to this it's not referred in media as a vinyl chloride disaster, it's referred to and is commonly known as a train derailment.Marleeashton (talk) 02:28, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I concur with this opposition. Emilymab (talk) 03:08, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I concur also. --MtPenguinMonster (talk) 10:19, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose Agree with all above - Does not make sense for it to be called this, nobody would know what this is. Odd title "rail disaster". The disaster wasn't because or about the rail. I really just vote "2023 East Palestine Train Disaster" - This way it'll be commonly recognized, and implies the event is beyond just a derailment.SwissAmish (talk — Preceding unsigned comment added by SwissAmish (talk • contribs) 03:19, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Wait The extent of the contamination is not clear yet but unlikely to be small. &#091;osunpokeh/talk/contributions] 06:24, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support — scanning various sources about this, it definitely looks like the chemical disaster is going to be the primary thing here, rather than the train disaster. It might be a little early for a rename, but I'm convinced that a year from now, something like "the Ohio chemical disaster" will definitely be the primary way people refer to this event, it won't be just a train crash. Krinn DNZ (talk) 06:27, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose I agree with L3X1 said and the rest of the points above. BeckyAnne(talk) 09:14, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose – We do not yet know the full extent of the contamination or cleanup, so it is too early to change the name. Most current media reports, such as CNN's report from the morning of February 11 still refer to this as a train derailment. If any move is to be made now, it should be to 2023 East Palestine train derailment as L3X1 said. I oppose the use of the term "disaster" unless specifically referred to as such by the NTSB and/or FRA. — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 00:33, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support  The "Oppose" voters all make good points. However, describing the article solely as a train derailment would not be adequately addressing the main takeaway of this event. The actual derailment of the train is not as impactful as the subsequent chemical spill, which is already causing displacement and contamination. I think "2023 Ohio vinyl chloride disaster" is not understandable by most, but I am in agreement with L3X1 in renaming the article to "2023 East Palestine Train Disaster". Gaius Publius Scipio (talk) 00:40, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think using naming syntax purely based on train derailment examples, ignores other relevant precedents. Historically, one interesting example to consider is the Goiânia accident, one of the worst nuclear waste incidents ever. If Wikipedia had existed then, would the title have focused on the fact that it was a break-in to a hospital complex? Probably not. Obviously the train derailment is major part of the story, but the toxic waste is what is causing the news coverage. Train derailments happen all the time without being worthy of their own wikipedia article. mennonot (talk) 02:06, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Or "2023 East Palestine Chemical Spill". Gaius Publius Scipio (talk) 02:12, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The San Bernardino train disaster had its greatest impact from the natural gas fire that erupted during the cleanup of the initial derailment, and the vast majority of damage due to the Lac-Mégantic rail disaster was the result of the fire fueled by crude oil being hauled by that train; however, the initial causes of both incidents were the derailments. The same applies here. — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 02:57, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Valid point, "vinyl chloride disaster" isn't a very comprehensive title. Move to shift towards "train disaster" or "chemical spill". Alternatively "chemical disaster". Though keep "Ohio" in the title as solely East Palestine may mislead folks. TSwanyIRL (talk) 20:25, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Additionally, I think that "derailment" does not accurately include the primary aspects of the accident, so I propose "2023 Ohio chemical accident". Very Conscious Citizen (talk) 15:15, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Wait  I feel like the response to the event is still ongoing and there might be more investigations coming. So I suggest waiting. However, I do composed a list of sources (reliable or not) calling the event "disaster" or "environmental disaster: by Fast Company,  by WSWS,  by The Militant. --  Akira 😼 CA  09:44, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support members of the public looking for information on this are likely more interested in the environmental contamination than the initial derailment; I suspect coverage will reflect that longer-term, so WP:NPOV would suggest following the conventions in public discourse ElectronicsForDogs (talk) 14:25, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Rail disaster is too generic. We classify railway accidents by type, and this is another derailment; there are many notable derailments. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:52, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * On second thoughts there are several articles with similar titles but they usually involve many deaths. I suppose there could be some basis for environmental disaster though it's not clear to me that this has risen to that level yet, given that the mandatory evacuation has already been lifted. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:11, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I added the article to Category:Chemical disasters, though the term "disaster" does not appear in the article body, a cited reference does use it. I think such a move is premature before the article more fully discusses the nature of the "disaster". – wbm1058 (talk) 17:47, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. The ongoing crisis is notable not simply as a derailment. Describing its full scope, involving both the train's derailment and the colossal burn, warrants language that encompasses the full scope. Unless the derailment and burn will be treated in separate articles, 2023 East Palestine, Ohio rail disaster is a more complete article title. P-Makoto (talk) 17:15, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. "Disaster" is quite emotionally-charged for something with zero injuries thus far. I'm ambivalent on including the city or not, but it should remain "train derailment". Jumper4677 (talk) 17:21, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There are reports of adverse health effects from the burn so I don't think it's fair to consider that "zero injuries". Axem Titanium (talk) 22:35, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose. The proposed title has more issues than the current one given its violation of WP:COMMONNAME and the use of "disaster" in the title violates WP:DISASTER. SuperSkaterDude45 (talk) 17:34, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose or now "Disaster" is certainly not a neutral term, while "derailment" is much more neutral. Maybe in time if people start getting seriously sick or dying, we can reassess. But I do not oppose adding the town name to the title. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:03, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Given the new title, Oppose because I don't feel like the town name is super relevant to the disaster and does not serve the purpose of distinguishing ths accident since Ohio does not even have many rail disasters to warrant further specification by town names. RPI2026F1 (talk) 21:30, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. "Disaster" is too subjective. MrSeaman (talk) 22:07, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't see why both elements can't be included, such as "[whatever] train derailment and chemical crisis". Mapsax (talk) 00:42, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Wait, the coverage will veer towards "2023 East Palestine, Ohio vinyl chloride disaster" in the next few weeks/months. Ceoil (talk) 01:11, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support The more verbiage, the better in terms of external searches/search engines. UnorthodoxyAC (talk) 06:31, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose the use of "disaster" in the title as there is no evidence that it is commonly known as one, which is required for such a loaded term. "Derailment" on the otherhand is perfectly neutral. I have no strong opinion on "Ohio" vs "East Palestine". Thryduulf (talk) 10:37, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support The disaster itself forced an evacuation only in East Palestine itself. There is substantial precedent for the naming of disasters after the city they affected, and "Ohio" is far too vague of a location.
 * Point of information: The evacuation zone was split almost evenly between Ohio and Pennsylvania. Indeed, RS pending, I recall that the gas cloud initially drifted east. Mapsax (talk) 00:34, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Wait/Support per Ceoil and Osunpokeh, could be a big enviromental disaster effecting several states. Just to early at the moment, when the time comes either 2023 Ohio vinyl chloride disaster or 2023 East Palestine, Ohio chemical disaster Koltinn (talk) 15:33, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose, at least for now. The event in question is not a "rail disaster" because there really isn't such as thing as a "rail disaster". The event is a train derailment creating a chemical spill. We may wish to veer more towards the spill aspect in the future, but "rail disaster" is a nothing phrase with no clear definition. DarkSide830 (talk) 20:04, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose any renaming, as the current title is descriptive enough and (at least for now) no disambiguation is needed. Support creating redirects from those suggested titles as potential search terms. — Huntster (t @ c) 20:34, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support The dead chickens, hens, animal and fish indicate a Disaster that is also affecting local citizens. This is not a common cold incident. Chemicals are flowing down the Ohio River.  108.183.79.51 (talk) 00:09, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support, there is precedent set for this naming convention. With the Lac Megantic Rail Disaster, the Ciurea Rail Disaster, the Awash Rail Disaster, the Firozabad Rail Disaster, the Khanna Rail Disaster, and the Sukkur Rail Disaster. The term derailment does not encompass the event's totality. As the majority of harmful effects from the event have come not directly from the derailment itself. But the manner in which the derailment was handled. The event encompasses a train derailment, a chemical spill, a chemical explosion, a chemical fire, a mass evacuation, an environmental disaster causing fish kills, and reports of farm animals being killed; and is woven into the current rail union labour movement. The term 'derailment' fails to encompass all of that. The term disaster as per Naming conventions (events) is to describe if an accident was more destructive than other. There were 1044 train derailments in the United States in 2022, Of those 1044 derailments, only one caused an evacuation of a nearby town. Paulina Louisiana, due to a single car leaking acid after a 6 car derailment. 150 people were evacuated. East Palestine is a 38 car derailment, with an ensuing explosion, and fire. 4500 people were evacuated. The chemical contents of this train were released into the air, soil, and water in the surrounding area. In Paulina, residents were free to return home after 1 day. While residents in East Palestine were still awaiting clearance ten days after the accident. There are reports of fish kills, and animals kills ten miles from the derailment site.
 * The term accident doesn't apply, as the burning of the chemicals was intentional. Derailment doesn't cover the extent of the event. Disaster does. Clowington (talk) 00:20, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You are so correct!!! But, Why is J Biden or Mayor Pete reluctant to call it a disaster?108.183.79.51 (talk) 00:45, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose 1: Only putting East Palestine will make people think literally East Palestine/Israel, which would be really confusing. 2: I think the extent of the destruction of the train derailment wouldn't qualify it under WP:DISASTER; it's not the next Chernobyl or anything, though I do think @Clowington made a good point by saying that possibly "derailment" doesn't describe the whole issue.
 * tl;dr: don't make the location more specific, but "disaster" is too strongly worded imo phrogge   'sup?   edits  03:10, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose because railway "disaster" is a sensationalist title that may create unwanted panic or bias for a reader reading this. The current title is good as it is. Captain Chicky (talk) 03:26, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * 2023 Ohio hazardous materials train derailment hints at "disaster" without saying that out loud. Although apparently the train wasn't officially carrying any such materials. Just thinking out loud. – wbm1058 (talk) 04:43, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comma comment: The current title proposed by the nominator violates MOS:GEOCOMMA. Alternative comma variants could be or  or simply omitting "East Palestine" (retaining "Ohio"). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:00, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Conditional support for following MOS:GEOCOMMA if whatever title we find consensus on includes "East Palestine, Ohio" as part of it (e.g., East Palestine, Ohio, train derailment; 2023 East Palestine, Ohio, vinyl chloride disaster; etc.). Otherwise agnostic about other elements of this discussion. —&#8288;Collint c 23:30, 18 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Support some kind of change that indicates that this is more than "just" a train derailment. This RM seems like it'll be a morass to close because of all the changes in the proposal so I'll just outline my thinking: 1) I would like some indication of the chemical aspect since that seems like the most damaging factor of the incident. 2) Do not make it more specific than Ohio. The effects appear to go beyond the town of East Palestine and into PA and WV so Ohio is good for now and perhaps consider a more inclusive regional name in the future. 3) Alternatively, naming it for the train company (Norfolk Southern) may be a good option to consider. It appears that working and safety conditions at the company played a significant role in the derailment. Axem Titanium (talk) 22:35, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Wait. I see it as a given that this article name will change eventually, once a common name has emerged. Let's discuss in early 2024. VQuakr (talk) 21:22, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support, the current title downplays the incident and is generally misleading. bree Breeboi 13:31, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment Biden, Mayor Pete and FEMA refuse to declare a disaster...108.183.79.51 (talk) 00:39, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't have the time to properly analyze this matter yet. I just came by to say that the way I searched for this article was East Palestine train derailment. Then I saw that East Palestine derailment had also been created.  Stony Brook  babble 22:18, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose It's not a disaster. No deaths or injuries? Secretlondon (talk) 22:16, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It's a disaster because of the evacuations and the destruction of the environment. Cessaune   [ talk ]   22:21, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose Suggested title looks worse. PuppyMonkey (talk) 22:19, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I support having rail disaster or train disaster in the title, but I’m neutral on the geographic aspect. Rail disaster or train disaster is better than train derailment since the aftermath is more important than the derailment. East Palestine is the most notable area that’s been affected, but it isn’t the only area that’s been affected. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 23:18, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose / Wait 2023 Ohio Train Derailment is good for now. Ohio is specific enough; East Palestine is a town of less than 5000; if it were near Dayton or Cincinnati, then the city would be informative; aside from sounding as if it's near Israel, it's just too obscure. If we have another Ohio TD by a small town, then maybe Ohio TD (EP). As for Train Derailment, okay for now; maybe TD and Fire or TD and Chemical Spill will be better later. I do not think vinyl chloride was the sole component of the spill, and the fire certainly produced other chemicals. For now, "Don't just do something, stand there." (Edited.) Laguna CA (talk) 01:57, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support it is a disaster requiring disaster relief. It is much more than a derailment. To all who are making up this issue being one of "neutrality", what do you say about the Lac-Mégantic rail disaster, the Ciurea rail disaster, the Awash rail disaster, the Firozabad rail disaster, the Khanna rail disaster, and the Sukkur rail disaster? There's even more where those came from. ɱ  (talk) 03:14, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose I am adding my voice to Jumper4677 and Rreagan007, to the effect that disaster should only be used in a case of a mass casualty event, which all of the above cited examples are, and which this one is not.  Stony Brook  babble 07:38, 19 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose: The name is good enough. Changing it would make it hard to search up. Thehistorianisaac (talk) 08:03, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Missing facts about the immediate result of the derailment
I am just a reader of this article - living out on the West coast - but I am baffled by the lack of discussion of the immediate result of the crash. Didn't that pile of cars burst into flames, and then begin to heat the remaining cars? I was unable to find any facts like that in the article, which strikes me as suspiciously sanitized in favor of the railroad company. The article describes the decision to blow open and burn cars that had not been breached, without having even mentioned that there had been a fire prior to that point. Wasn't there a fire? If so, shouldn't there be some sentances that describe that? Very strange. Hekatonk (talk) 04:50, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Journalist arrested at press conference on Feb. 8, 2023
A NewsNation journalist was arrested after a press conference started on Feb. 8, 2023

Article below NewsNation reporter arrested at Ohio governor's news conference — NewsNation https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/midwest/newsnation-reporter-arrested-ohio-news-conference/;

Sroth0616 (talk) 03:24, 9 February 2023 (UTC) Sroth0616 (talk) 03:24, 9 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't think this warrants its own section, but I'd definitely be open to "media reaction and public aftermath" section that devotes a paragraph to this. EytanMelech (talk) 22:44, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * In all honesty, I don't know who created the section and I agree with you which is why I made this in the talk page. Sroth0616 (talk) 00:06, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I tried removing it, but it came back. I support removing it. This could have happened in the vicinity of any press conference, after any event, and BLPCRIME advises against going heavy on allegations against ordinary people. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:06, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I believe it should be included in the wiki however, I don't where which is why added a comment in the Talk page. Sroth0616 (talk) 03:32, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Its own article, if anywhere, though it really isn't encyclopedic. People get arrested for trespassing and disorderly conduct every day in every state. Most of the time, like this time, they're just Average Joe and sometimes, like this time, they get a day or two of passing mention/Internet fame. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:40, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. Thanks for explaining. Sroth0616 (talk) 21:35, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:02, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * They are using this edit to scrub any mention of this article from Facebook. 2603:7081:5200:1A07:A8DC:5526:51DA:A109 (talk) 21:29, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Who’s they? Not like it really matters. Sroth0616 (talk) 02:19, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It might be easier to create an article on the guy, if he's done even one other thing of note. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:46, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * This also makes sense. Again, thanks for explaining. Sroth0616 (talk) 21:35, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You're still welcome. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:02, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * According to his bio he's an emmy-nominated, award winning journalist. The story of his arrest has been run in conjunction with the train derailing on every major news platform, but now this edit has been used on platforms like facebook to scrub any mention of the Ohio disaster if they too reference this arrest.
 * I'm not a wiki editor, but I think that this arrest drastically alters the perception of the incident, with the charges being dropped, and from the evidence available from the bodycam its clear that the arrest and the incident are connected, and I humbly ask that you return the section on the arrested journalist.
 * Thank you 2603:7081:5200:1A07:A8DC:5526:51DA:A109 (talk) 21:43, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to gaslight you, but he doesn't have a bio. The closest thing here to Evan Lambert is List of The Boys characters. And he was briefly detained for refusing to leave a sidescrum, not for derailing a train. I therefore humbly decline your request. If you ever do become a Wikipedian, you'll gradually come to understand why WP:UNDUE and WP:BLPCRIME are more persuasive than your assertions in that regard. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:14, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * thank you, I learned a lot from reading from those links.
 * And maybe one day I'll be a Wikipedian, in the meantime, I'm working hard trying to not be a BIO1E 2603:7081:5200:1A07:A8DC:5526:51DA:A109 (talk) 22:30, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Ominous...good luck! InedibleHulk (talk) 22:36, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I am being honest with you when I posted the comment saying (paraphrased) “charges dropped” it was to show the events final conclusion. I don’t know Wikipedia well enough to confidently re-add a section; I was when surprised someone made it on the Wiki. Sroth0616 (talk) 02:32, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your honesty. All I meant by the above comment is that I hope the IP isn't considering making some "final conclusion" in the form of a mass casualty event. There are better ways to get a point across. I guess that's now my advice for you and the IP (and anyone else who might be thinking of WP:BLP1Eing themself). Don't do it. Also, don't re-add the section. Named living people not even charged with a crime don't need the Internet even suggesting their guilt. Especially not in the context of a train derailment. If anyone here should later think this has to belong anywhere, think it belongs at his employer's article. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:31, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input. Sroth0616 (talk) 02:22, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Update to my initial talk thread comment/post (article below)
 * Charges against NewsNation reporter dropped — NewsNation
 * https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/midwest/charges-filed-against-newsnation-reporter-dropped/; Sroth0616 (talk) 21:37, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * In case it wasn't obvious, this is why I dropped the section again, now presumably forever. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:16, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * After reviewing all of the discussion posts (on this topic) to date [02:40, 17 February 2023 (UTC)] on this thread I agree with your opinion. Sroth0616 (talk) 02:40, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * In hindsight I should have made it [closing the loop] more obvious; I have no clue who re-added it after 'closing the loop'. Sroth0616 (talk) 04:43, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no idea when this "loop" was open or closed, but the only editor I remember restoring it at all is a Grand High Togneme Vicarus (a grandmaster editor, in plain English), so I'm sure he had his reasons. But that was back when this seemed like it might go somewhere, legally, and this is now. Unless it comes back, best to just forget about it. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:35, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Only time will tell. Thank you for your help. Sroth0616 (talk) 06:05, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Not sure I'm ready to just forget this. It's not so much a BLP issue for the reporter as it is a freedom of the press in the United States issue. More specifically, a violence against journalists in the U.S. issue. Just noting the removal and leaving the last version here for the record. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:26, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * First, thank you for posting the section in question.
 * Second, after reading the section in question I wonder if it should be up however, acknowledge the journalist/reporter at the center of this doe not have a wiki page.
 * Third, as I may have said in prior comments (comments above) I felt it [the event] was worthy to be in the Wiki talk page; I posted about it for the greater good.
 * I support the ultimate decision made be the mods.; I am not a moderator ('mod.') nor claim to be, I am a Wiki user who tries to be helpful.
 * Sroth0616 (talk) 19:28, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Violence would have made this more noteworthy than it appeared, though it still doesn't appear this was a violent arrest. The section didn't indicate his story was intended to be silenced, or even what his story was. Seems rather to be a simple case of briefly alleged disorderly conduct and trespassing, as the block below says, with no effect whatsoever on East Palestine. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:05, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * According to the Freedom of the press in the United States, this incident was considered targeted and unnecessary use of force. This is definitely note-worthy enough to include in this article as any targeted 1st amendment violation is a relatively big deal in the US. While this incident doesn't rise to the level of having it's own page or article, such as the arrest of a journalist during the George Floyd protests it's worth noting that the journalist mentioned here is also in the aforementioned database with similar attributes. I strongly support the inclusion of the section that was removed, while a bit verbose, it should be trimmed down a bit before reintroduction. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:07, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * After reading in the section named "Reaction" reads in part "...The incident was followed by numerous false or misleading claims circulating on social media. Some far-right pundits, such as Marjorie Taylor Greene, have made claims that the derailment was being covered up by the reporting of several high-altitude objects.
 * In the aftermath of the disaster, the company was accused of prioritizing $10bn stock buybacks for shareholders over maintenance. ..."
 * After reading about miss information being in/on the wiki I believe the topic in question should also be in/on the wiki regardless if the journalist has a wiki of his own.
 * Sroth0616 (talk) 04:04, 20 February 2023 (UTC) Sroth0616 (talk) 04:04, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Little Miss Information was my personal tipping point. There's no putting the truthpaste back into the tube from there, future historiographers agree. From that moment forward, I stopped caring enough to object to this nonsense; if you'd like to reinsert it (and know how now), it would help make this trainwreck article a more complete trainwreck. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:15, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

There's a larger pattern of this happening, if you see the following video, this journalist was also intimidated by Ohio state police for confronting Congressman Bill Johnson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0CcgJKVxX8 My two cents, could be food for thought 198.60.121.1 (talk) 19:50, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That's not a journalist, and he's not behaving in the socially-acceptable manner that journalists are expected to behave. It says it right there in the YouTube video summary: He "confronts" the congressman. Journalists interview politicians, they don't "confront" them. I believe he's a member of the National Justice Party. He says he lives in New York. He asked "where is the Federal response?"; the congressman responded that the EPA is here (at the town hall meeting of residents) and FEMA is not supposed to be here yet. The tone of the "questions" sounded more like demands. Journalists just ask questions, sometimes they toss softballs, sometimes they're more probing and investigative. Journalists generally don't make demands. – wbm1058 (talk) 00:06, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * As a reporter forced to retire after demanding an ethical semblance of financial compensation, I agree, it's sad what citizens have done to the ashes of journalism. But like it or not, Photography Is Not a Crime and "it's just a prank, bro". Anyway, embittered though I remain, I'm still curious to know (if or when it's convenient) why you believe Joe Schmo here is or has ever been a member of the NJP. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:15, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @InedibleHulk, I am sorry to read that you were forced to retire; maybe the admins. who run plane crash wiki pages should clean this wiki up.
 * This wiki is a complete mess [in my opinion] regardless if the section in question ("Arrest of reporter for alleged disorderly conduct") is on the wiki.
 * Sroth0616 (talk) 01:58, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There are only the same admins across this whole wiki (en.wikipedia.org). It doesn't matter what this page is, they'll come or go as it suits them. Some of those who clean crosses are the same who trim forces. For the most part, though, the buck stops at we, the people. If this page still sucks in ten days, say it one more time for the people in the back. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:25, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * InedibleHulk, the caption on the video says "NJP committee member Joseph Jordan confronts US Congressman Bill Johnson" I'm assuming NJP is National Justice Party and that if it says the guy's a member, then he is. I hadn't really noticed you much on wiki before this topic; just wanted to let you know I wasn't surprised to learn you're a former journalist. I was reviewing your copy edits to this article, and I was quite impressed, I recognize talent better than my own when I see it. I'm an admin but that doesn't mean I have any special powers to control the mess. If I realized letting the journalist arrest incident out the barn door would pave the way to the travesty that's the "disinformation" section I should have been right with you keeping trying to keep that door closed. If the brakes section is disproportionate, what about that disinfo section? What I think there should be more focus on than brakes is the defect detectors, or lack of them. If security and Ring doorbell cameras are seeing trouble miles out, what's taking them so long to get a signal from a defect detector? The NTSB findings are weeks off yet and I fear the article will be a mess until it comes out, and (ack) maybe even after it's released. I'm feeling a bit demoralized and that usually means it's time for a wiki-break for me. wbm1058 (talk) 03:34, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That makes sense, I suppose, there are only so many NJPs with committees out there. I haven't watched the video yet, might never since it's "reportedly" in portrait mode, just going by what I read. Always was a better copyeditor than videographer. Hadn't realized you're an admin, small world. Anyway, don't worry about the brake mess on your break, it seems to be going somewhere. When you're back, if it still suits you, there probably will be new avenues galore. Work in progress, this WP, and as we've learned from Miamisburg, what's old is always new again down the road. For what it's worth, I don't think this section directly affected the misinformation, more a concurrence, but once anyone alludes to American bullshit vaguely online, it doesn't take a Knowlton Nash or Dick Tracy to know which specific "likely suspects" will emerge. Demoralizing is all, as you say. Cheers to moderation! InedibleHulk (talk) 06:34, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * What 'journalist' records a video in portrait? Sroth0616 (talk) 01:44, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Brakes?
There is a very long section about regulations about train braking systems and Donald Trump, but it is not really explained how this relates to the event; it seems to me that the issue was an overheated axle bearing.

The only connection seems to be a single comment from a guy saying that it "would have reduced the severity" of the accident, who was a "senior official" (no title given) at the Federal Railroad Administration... but no longer works there, so he cannot have been speaking in an official capacity. I think that there should either be found a stronger connection between these two things, or the section should be trimmed: three paragraphs seems undue for a link this tenuous. jp×g 09:20, 18 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree, it probably deserves at most a paragraph in a "Controversies" section, though it appears Pete Buttigieg had made a statement that relates to this matter, which is why I would support the topic remaining in the article. Kcmastrpc (talk) 20:30, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, why in the world is this section in there at all, given that in the third paragraph it states that the regulations under discussion wouldn't have applied to this train anyway? 108.210.5.163 (talk) 20:19, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

This ECP brakes thing is actual nonsense. Aside from the fact that the NTSB head herself said that they had nothing to do with it,(https://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-train-derailment-ntsb-chair-issues-plea-spreading/story?id=97281671) the section has no connection to anything else in the article. If it belongs there at all (which it doesn't) it does not belong in the "derailment" section Joseph Zadeh (talk) 21:54, 19 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I believe the talk around these ECP brakes is that if the train had them, the crash would not have happened. Not that the exact Obama-era rule would have included this train. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:26, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Jennifer Homendy herself did not say that they had nothing to do with it. What she Tweeted:


 * Wikipedia has not said that ECP brakes would have prevented derailment. Wikipedia says, citing an expert, ECP brakes would have mitigated the severity of the accident.
 * I'm open to toning that down to could have mitigated the severity. I'm not sure we can say with certainty that they would have mitigated the severity. Mitigation may be dependent on the amount of time elapsed between brake application and derailment, I'm just guessing.
 * There is a connection because the brakes were applied before derailment happened.
 * Wikipedia correctly says that the rules only apply to Class 3 flammable liquids.
 * This train wouldn't have been required by law to have ECP brakes. There's no rule prohibiting the train to have ECP brakes, is there?
 * The train did not contain "only" 3 placarded Class 3 flammable liquids cars. It also had several cars containing vinyl chloride, a Class 2.1 flammable gas. Homendy should take care not to spread disinformation on Twitter. – wbm1058 (talk) 23:56, 19 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I somewhat agree with 's stance. The article currently devotes a disproportionate amount of weight to discussions of ECP brakes. Aside from that, there was a bunch of poorly sourced information in that section. I deleted one bit of trivia sourced to a corporate newsletter and unfortunately had to add a bunch of cn and bsn tags in place of bad sources. Hope someone with more time can fix the sourcing. Alex Eng ( TALK ) 01:14, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The talk about brakes is not a creation here in Wikipedia. Various critics quoted or interviewed in the news media have made the greatest emphasis for the factor contributing to this incident on the antiquated brakes technology. Additionally, when you look at other noteworthy rail disasters (e.g., San Bernardino train disaster of 1989 or the Lac-Mégantic rail disaster (2013) from derailments brake problems were a major factor. We simply cannot ignore the topic of brakes in this article.Dogru144 (talk) 00:28, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Regarding Lac-Mégantic, see above. That was a parking brake issue. What would balance out the weight of the brake section would be an equally-sized or longer section about the defect detectors, or lack of sufficient functioning defect detectors. Specifically, a hot box detector should have been setting off alarm bells, causing braking to be initiated much sooner, giving the train more time to stop. In this age of ubiquitous Ring doorbell cameras that seems like another obvious safety solution the railroads seem to be cheap about implementing. – wbm1058 (talk) 01:27, 23 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Agree - the current layout of the article on February 24 AM appears to be an editorial for Electronically controlled pneumatic brakes. Group29 (talk) 15:01, 24 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep The brake issue is still widely cited as a major factor of concern (not the only factor of concern). So, it should remain in the article. We need to have a fuller discussion if there is going to be any wholesale removal of the brakes discussion.Dogru144 (talk) 02:03, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

The July 1986 Miamisburg OH derailment
I looked this up in the New York Times archive. Local papers would have had a lot more coverage but I wanted to see how it was covered by a national paper of record. That's all my search turned up. The largest evacuation because of a train accident in the nation's history was not front-page national news.
 * EVACUEES RETURN TO HOMES IN OHIO July 11, 1986, Section A, Page 13
 * With officials saying that a poisonous chemical cloud was dissipating, life returned to normal today for most of the residents in this city of 20,000 people, which was evacuated Wednesday evening after a railroad tank car exploded.
 * Allan D. Franks, chief of the public interest division of the State Environmental Protection Agency said there have been more than 30,000 chemical spills in the state in the last 14 years.
 * Inquiry Under Way On Burning Tank Car July 12, 1986, Section 1, Page 5
 * As the car continued to burn for a fourth day, about 300 residents waited to return to their homes.
 * The accident prompted as many as 40,000 people to flee, according to the Red Cross, the largest evacuation because of a train accident in the nation's history.
 * Rail Concern Is Blamed For Derailment in Ohio July 2, 1987, Section A, Page 21
 * "We have also concluded that the probability of a sun kink's occurrence was enhanced by the carrier's failure to follow track maintenance practices (and its own track maintenance rules) which required placing a slow order on this track segment after resurfacing."
 * A CSX spokesman said "Their conclusion was in error."

Just thought this would give some perspective. wbm1058 (talk) 03:15, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I would argue that PTB (powers that be) didn't have to contend with the internet disseminating the details and controversy surrounding catastrophic events so effectively. I'm glad we live in modern times where corporate greed and nepotism isn't able to keep a lid on events like this. I appreciate your research, I truly do, but you've exposed why it's so important to have free speech and independent media outlets.


 * While I understand WP:NOTFORUM, in the interest of cleaning up my post here, I'd be really interested in seeing a reliable source do a compare / contrast of these two events and would support such inclusion in this article. Kcmastrpc (talk) 11:59, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, not a forum. But in all these articles we have the makings for an article on that derailment. The number of cars (144) makes this a parallel with the East Palestine derailment. You could look up the coverage in the major newspapers of the region: the Dayton Daily News or the relatively more nationally prominent Cincinnati Enquirer. As these newspapers are probably not digitized for those years, this research would be done better by someone in the area. I did find these links of interest:


 * WDTN TV {Dayton] 'Timeline: 1986 fiery train derailment in Miamisburg' May 17, 2022, updated, 'Feb. 6, 2023
 * WHIO TV [Dayton] '35 years later: Miamisburg train derailment remembered' July 8, 2021
 * The Dayton Daily News' July 9, 1986 coverage: 'Timeline: 1986 fiery train derailment in Miamisburg' photos uploaded in recent years, accessed, Feb. 22, 2023 Dogru144 (talk) 00:16, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Related events
There was a large vinyl chloride fire at a Formosa Plastics site in Illiopolis, Illinois in 2004. I gather the vinyl chloride is currently being burned off here, so it might be worth linking to? Project Osprey (talk) 14:31, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Per this report, after an explosion that killed five workers they evacuated ~150 people living within a mile of the plant for two days. Nothing in that report about (longer-term) health affects. In East Palestine they had a "controlled" burn to remove the possibility of a similar explosion killing people. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:13, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

track resume service
Need info of when was track repaired to resume service 2601:602:680:9EE0:A5D6:6EB4:B58B:4E93 (talk) 06:35, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Biased Article
This article has biased language which intentionally belittles the events that occurred in East Palistine. 185.234.68.99 (talk) 07:43, 21 February 2023 (UTC)


 * care to highlight the language? LegalSmeagolian (talk) 13:43, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Odd lack of information regarding panic of the situation
A lot of the conspiracy theories listed in this are created due to general panic within the local community, as well as seemingly inaccurate coverage of the situation initially by local news, yet I'm not really seeing anything regarding the panic caused by this incident nor am I seeing anything about initial coverage of the derailment (which from what I could gather, seemed to think the train derailment was far more serious). At max they're listed as "concerns" in this article, which is definitely not the actual scale of the panic according to most sources.

For instance, right now the locals are concerned about the water being safe, yet the only thing the article even mentions about the water is how the EPA has declared it safe on Feb 8, nothing about the panic of using water even after, nothing about the fact it's a rural area that relies on such ground water, nothing.

I hope we can get a section regarding the sheer panic caused by the initial inaccurate coverage of the train wreck, panic caused by the evacuation, and panic caused by the aftermath of this situation because it's basically the 2nd half of the entire situation caused by the derailment. Nice argument (talk) 13:18, 21 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I think this would be great to incorporate into the article. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 13:44, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It's OK to say some people panicked, citing a reliable source that says as much. If incorporating this into the article means adding three paragraphs and seven instances of "panic", though, I think it unwise and advise you reconsider. After all, many Americans are brought up thinking it OK to fear fear itself, and we're trying to teach those people, too, not panic them. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:15, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Nice argument, but the phrase "the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself" specifically refers to economics. It literally means that if people fear for their money, they will take it out of the bank. Repeat this enough times and the bank goes under. Therefore, you should fear others fearing for their money, or fear the fear. Problem is, this has nothing to do with anything in this article, because this isn't a money problem.
 * Your reply also seemingly fails to even contradict the main point of why we should include a section on all the panic, being that its notability is on par with the inciting event.
 * You also seem to assume I want those 3 "paragraphs" (if you count breaks in text as paragraphs) added in, when in fact I used 3 "paragraphs" to explain why the panic would be a worthwhile inclusion. Including those few sentences word for word within the text would not improve the article because it's a suggestion to improve the article, not something word for word to add to the article.
 * Also concluding it "unwise" to add a section on panic caused by the event because it would cause more panic? This literally doesn't make any sense. It's the same as concluding it "unwise" to write about violence caused by sports because it may cause more violence. Please justify your rationale in this case. Nice argument (talk) 19:02, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You want a whole section now? Do you want to name it Panic? Without knowing what content or sources you're proposing, it's hard to form a cogent objection or action plan; give us something concrete, then we'll justify our rationales. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:16, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * This isn't a news source; it's an encyclopedia. To insert content contending that people felt panic, we would need statements from people that werw reported in reputable local or national news media outlets. Dogru144 (talk) 00:21, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, we have those. That's literally my point. It's mentioned in a LOT of reputable sources and we don't even have anything about it. Nice argument (talk) 12:48, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Grocery chain pulls bottled water sourced near East Palestine
Grocery chain pulls bottled water sourced near East Palestine

Could someone please add this to the article?--Trade (talk) 21:00, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Giant Eagle brand spring water in gallon-size bottles and larger are sourced from a facility in Salineville, Ohio, 25 miles southwest of East Palestine. Upstream from the site of the train wreck, but was it also upwind from the travel of the "toxic cloud"? No problem, Trump flew in with his own Trump-branded water. – wbm1058 (talk) 23:50, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Environmental Concerns of Derailment
This train crash should be further investigated as many concerns as previously stated are still unaccounted for. The main concerns now are the contamination of homes, soil, and water, primarily from volatile organic compounds and semivolatile organic compounds, known as VOCs and SVOCs. The train had nearly a dozen cars with vinyl chloride and other materials, such as ethylhexyl acrylate and butyl acrylate. Laylamayrhinestine1998 (talk) 22:26, 22 February 2023 (UTC)


 * What does any of this got to do with the Wikipedia article? Trade (talk) 22:47, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * We just have to wait for the EPA or other professional investigators or scientists to release more information. I've heard at least one video blogger expressing concern about the two tank cars carrying "mystery chemicals" that the NTSB labeled as "combustible liquids" but weren't assigned a HAZMAT classification. – wbm1058 (talk) 01:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh my God, it's dip! InedibleHulk (talk) 01:33, 23 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I think a large quantity of lubricating oil also spilled; shouldn't that be added to the list of chemicals in this article? Source: https://epaosc.org/sites/15933/files/TRAIN%2032N%20-%20EAST%20PALESTINE%20-%20derail%20list%20Norfolk%20Southern%20document.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1mHea_CTqhU3y50yej8WZTg59UNZ3fDDNz6IgQnWer-GyN47YNi5CviMM 76.190.213.189 (talk) 03:42, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Article Name Change
Now it has been clear that it's no longer should be called as Ohio train derailment..since all the news are mentioning it now as "Ohia Environmental disaster"...the article name does not justify the scale of hazardous material released in the environment and it's affect on the local environment. Editor here must discuss this and reach to a conclusion. Thank you. 182.79.110.142 (talk) 05:42, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * No, environmental disaster is misleading. It escapes the most likely causative factor that led to this: the braking was poor, the train could not stop in time, the environmental problems ensued.Dogru144 (talk) 13:13, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, I think its better to be called as 2023 Ohio train derailment and disaster or 2023 Ohio toxic train derailment, this justifies both the concerns, because this derailment is not only derailment, it is associated with environmental disaster too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.79.110.142 (talk) 14:00, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Adding some sources, US NEWS, The Oswegonian , W.Post . These headline surely shows, this is not just a derailment. Thank you. 182.79.110.142 (talk)  — Preceding undated comment added 14:09, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Derailments not that uncommon
Just a point of information for those wondering: derailments are frequent, but the number of accidents is decreasing. See: https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2023/why-train-derailments-this-month/ Dogru144 (talk) 22:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Fate of train crew
I have read several news articles but have not found any information about the fate of the train crew, if they survived the crash or not. Does anybody have any information on this? This is one of the main newsworthy topics of any accident or crash, but strangely it has been ommitted in this particular accident. 2800:150:125:15C3:A1C3:6DF7:FCA3:1004 (talk) 22:42, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Per the NTSB preliminary document (see the next section)


 * The crew escaped unharmed, and got themselves and their two front-of-train locomotives the hell away from danger – a mile away. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:50, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

NTSB prelimimary report
Preliminary Report RRD23MR005: Norfolk Southern Railway Train Derailment with Subsequent Hazardous Material Release and Fires Primary source but secondary sources available. Mapsax (talk) 23:39, 23 February 2023 (UTC)