Talk:Eastbourne/Archive 2

God's waiting room
I can't believe there aren't any references to this in the text. Eastbourne has been known as this for as long as I can remember (and I'm 63). 86.140.132.111 16:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The term "God's waiting room" is used for lots of places ... Frinton, Worthing, Bexhill. It's not specific to Eastbourne. Mikeo1938 21:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Archiving the talk page.
I have moved the collaboration section to its own page. I think the ability to discuss each section is working well. As it has grown, I thought it would be best to keep it separate.

I am not too sure about the wording of the announcement at the top of the page. I do not want to distract the average reader from making comments on the main talk page. MortimerCat 10:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Norway
I note the definition of Norway, but have not seen this before. Can you pse tell me your source? (I don't have my reference books to hand.) The suffix "ay/ey" is derived from an old word meaning "isle" or place rising up above the (old) sea level. As such, it is noted in Pevensey, Hydney, Langney and so on. I'm inclined to think that "North Way" may be ncorrect.Mikeo1938 21:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It was a book in the library, although that probably doesn't really narrow it down! An oldish book on the Local history shelf in the reference library. I will write down its name next time. MortimerCat 22:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Education
I have added a note about the accreditation of language schools and will follow this shortly with a reference.Mikeo1938 11:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC) Sorry, but I've forgotten how to add an website reference! Could you pse add the reference link to follow the last word ("children") in the section about the accreditation of language schools? The link is www.educationuk.org/English Mikeo1938 12:50, 11 April 2007 (UTC) OK, I've worked out how to do the link to the British Council and it's now in place.Mikeo1938 13:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Headings
I've not looked at the article for a while and must say that it's all shaping up rather well. However, perhaps we need more consistency in the headings. Some are in bold and others not. Mikeo1938 21:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Areas and Suburbs
I can't work out how to insert an internal link for lime kilns. Can someone pse do it? Then I'll look & learn. Thanks. Mikeo1938 19:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

 lime kilns  The first field is the actual name of the article which is case sensitive. Use the actual article name and avoid redirects. The second field is how you want the link to appear in the article. MortimerCat 23:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC) OK all noted ... and VMT. Mikeo1938 15:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

George Orwell
I've deleted the note about Orwell and Chalk Farm as it's incorrect. There's a comprehensive article about Eric Blair (Orwell's real name) and his schooldays in E'bne in a Newsletter of Eastbourne Local History Society. The biographies of Orwell by Michael Shelden and Bernard Crick are also both clear in this respect. Mikeo1938 22:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough - there is discussion about this point - (Was chalk farm in Willingdon eastbourne, the inspiration for animal farm ? - see http://archive.theargus.co.uk/1999/5/19/197736.html )

But is it surely worth keeping a mention of Orwell's time in Eestbourne as St Cyprian's School as that is very well documented in the biographies you note? (and in the wikiedia article on St Cyprian's !)

John.

OK, but as there were so many schools in E'bne, there's a danger that the section could get overloaded with names. For example, I know that Douglas Bader was at school here; also Alec Guinness. The list must be very long. Orwell does get a mention in the Blue Plaque section, of course. (Sorry the username is not coming up: Mikeo1938)

Tennis Community
Cheers for giving a good fine man such as myself a healthy kick in the "Gonads"; in punishment for fighting hard against; degenerates in; "British Society"; & in return, "I", most sincerely hope your attitude does not come home to roost.

Wish Twr Pic
Could someone pse move the pic down a fraction? It's obscuring part of the text. (Not sure how to do it myself.) Mikeo1938 19:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It was one of those word processing/Internet browser quirks. It probably looked okay on some peoples browsers. I reduced the image size which worked for me, but it may upset someone else! MortimerCat 20:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

OK: my main browser is Safari and on that it could still go down a bit more. On Firefox it's better but the pic just clips the edge of some text. Again, it could come down a little.Mikeo1938 21:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It looks okay on my Firefox. IE7 leaves a big gap between the paragraphs. I do not know of a way to adjust the position apart from the basic left or right. All I am doing is reducing the size hoping that may help the wrapping. MortimerCat 21:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)  Well, on Safari and Firefox all looks fine now.  No gap between paras. Mikeo1938 16:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

GA review
I have placed the review on hold as these need fixing: Let me know when these are done. Epbr123 17:51, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The lead section needs expanding so it adequately summarizes the content of the article; see WP:LEAD for guidelines.✅
 * If the 2005 pop estimate is reliable, it should be used in the lead and mentioned in the demographics section. If not, it should be removed from the infobox.✅ New figure obtained!
 * According to Manual of Style, it is not recommended to specify the size of images, as the size should be what readers have specified in their user preferences. ✅
 * Ampersands shouldn't be used. ✅ They have been removed from prose, but left where they are part of a title such as French & Saunders
 * Read Manual of Style (dashes) for the correct use of dashes. There are many dashes in the article which need changing. ✅
 * Full dates and dates with a day and month need to be linked. Years on their own shouldn't be linked. The same apples to dates in the footnotes. ✅
 * These could be wikilinked: Dukes of Devonshire, Georgian era, Prince Edward, Prince Octavius, Princess Elizabeth, Princess Sophie, Stagecoach ✅ except Stagecoach - The division that covers Eastbourne does not have an article.
 * The See Also section can be removed as all articles are already mentioned. ✅
 * There should be 'non-breaking spaces' between numbers and units, such as 1500 m. These kind of spaces can be placed by typing . ✅
 * "Created almost from scratch..." - this sounds too informal ✅
 * "Four of the Eastbourne County Councillors are currently serving as Borough Councillors." — sentences involving the word "currently" should be avoided as they eventually become outdated. ✅ The preceding paragraph already stated the fact in general terms.
 * "This beautifully situated manor house" - this doesn't sound encyclopedic ✅
 * "The obvious place of leisure is..." - this doesn't sound encyclopedic ✅ - I've subsituted "natural" for "obvious", but also made clear why - IMSoP 20:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "the town was cheerful, attractive and flourishing" - this doesn't sound encyclopedic ✅ Adjectives had been taken from source text but now removed Mikeo1938 22:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "Trains have to pass through the station twice on their journey" - why is this? ✅
 * See if the Economy section could be expanded. ✅
 * The Other notable residents section should be made into prose. ✅ scattered list around
 * "1812 Firework Concerts, Rock N Roll Nights, Big Band & Last Night of the Proms and the very popular Tribute Band Nights" - could you check if all the capital letters are required, and give some indication of what 'Big Band & Last Night of the Proms' is? ✅ Capitals as per advertising and wikilinks introduced
 * The Sports and Tourism sections shouldn't have so many short paragraphs. ✅
 * "(see Eastbourne Redoubt)" - this should be removed and Redoubt Fortress linked ✅
 * "including 4 Victoria Crosses" - numbers under 10 should be written in words, except when it makes a sentence look inconsistant eg. the numbers in "29 Conservatives, 15 Liberal Democrats, 5 Labour and 1 Independent" should be left as figures for consistancy. ✅
 * "in many parts of the town one only needs to walk a few paces to find an oriental restaurant." - is this true? ✅
 * "Eastbourne has a tradition of private education stretching back to the 19th century." - is it a tradition? Most schools were private then. ✅ - The point is surely not that there were non-private schools, it's that there weren't any schools, except in towns where they became the tradition...? - IMSoP 19:49, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The Sunday Telegraph footnote has an incorrect title and is missing the date. ✅
 * These statements need citations, unless their citation is provided later in the paragraph:
 * "Eastbourne was granted the right to hold a market in 1315" ✅ removed pending citation
 * "In the mid-sixteenth century the house was home to the Burton family" ✅
 * "Four villages or hamlets occupied the site of the modern town"✅
 * "The next development currently being debated is the effective demolition of much of the town centre" ✅
 * "These were originally chalk deposits laid down under the sea during the Upper Cretaceous period, later uplifted by tectonic plate movements" ✅
 * "The town of Eastbourne is built on geologically recent alluvial drift, the result of the silting up of a bay. This changes to Weald clay around the Langney estate." ✅
 * "...and does not allow them to be developed into shops." ✅
 * "The name being a corruption of North Way" ✅
 * "...was taken over by the local water board in 1896" ✅
 * "Prior to 1896, the main water supply for the town had been drawn from the Bedford Well" ✅
 * "The most common form of transport throughout the town is the car" ✅
 * "buses and trains are usually half empty" ✅ Section reworded with citations
 * "many measures are being taken to encourage the use of public transport, which have produced a slow increase of passengers on the trains and buses." ✅ Section reworded with citations
 * "Taxis are the second favourite form of transport." ✅ removed as statistics showed this to be false
 * "The present station (the town's fourth) dates from 1866. " ✅ and corrected
 * "Trains leave from London Victoria to Eastbourne with a journey time of around 1hr 30mins." ✅
 * "It opened in 1954 but ceased operation in 1970 and moved lock stock and barrel to Seaton in Devon after the owners had fallen out with the council" ✅
 * "In 1993, following a suggestion to Eastbourne Borough Council by Eastbourne Civic Society..." ✅
 * "The polar explorer lived there from 1917 to 1922." ✅ and year amended Mikeo1938 19:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "The author Jeffrey Farnol died at his home in Denton Road in 1952." ✅
 * "when he stayed as a guest of the Victorian artist Augustus Egg,✅"Ref addedMikeo1938 22:26, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "The biologist Professor Thomas Huxley took up residence in Staveley Road in 1890." ✅
 * "St Mary’s Hospital, 1794 - 1990"✅
 * "Aleister Crowley, occultist and mystic attended Eastbourne College in 1892"✅
 * "Claude Debussy and his young lover resided in Eastbourne in 1904, whilst fleeing France to avoid scandal. Whilst gazing at the dramatic seascape he wrote the Orchestral piece La Mer. " ✅ reworded
 * "Karl Marx and Frederick Engels were frequent visitors; the latter's ashes were scattered from Beachy Head at his request. " ✅ both
 * "Actors Prunella Scales and Eddie Izzard both went to school in Eastbourne. Child star Laura Harling and actress Susannah Corbett also studied in the town. " ✅ No evidence found for Harling or Corbett (now removed) except websites that seem to have sourced their info from this article.
 * "Roger Moore once lived in the penthouse flat of the South Cliff Tower" ✅ removed
 * "Chris Brooks was born in Eastbourne, and started his career on Eastbourne Hospital Radio " ✅ Could not prove he was born in Eastbourne.
 * "Toploader, Easyworld and Rooster hail from Eastbourne as do The Mobiles" ✅
 * "Eastbourne is the birthplace and early home town of British Yacht Designer Phil Morrison " ✅ removed
 * "Eastbourne officially has 10 parks and gardens" ✅ reworded
 * "The first public park in Eastbourne was Hampden Park, originally owned by Lord Willingdon and opened on 12 August 1902." ✅
 * "During construction of the new A22 route nearby several bronze age items were discovered thought to date back to 600 BC - 800 BC." ✅ removed pending citation
 * "Princes Park obtained its name during a visit by the Duke of Windsor as Prince of Wales in 1931." ✅
 * "Although the oldest park in the town it only became a public park in 1929." ✅ removed due to lack of evidence
 * "The "kiosk" in the music gardens was originally one of the toll kiosks at the entrance to the pier." ✅
 * "Eastbourne Pier, opened in 1870. In 1877 the landward half was swept away in a storm." ✅
 * "This has contributed to its longevity," ✅ removed
 * "In 2007, Eastbourne will gain a new cultural centre"✅ due to open 2008
 * "such as the 'Large Coastal Resort' category in the 2003 Britain in Bloom competition." ✅
 * "International Air Show, 'Airbourne'. Started in 1994" ✅ - according to the BBC, 2006 was the 14th year, making it 1993
 * "but was cancelled in 2005 due to lack of competitors." ✅
 * "The museum contains more than 100,000 exhibits" ✅
 * "..is one of only two examples of a type of fortress built to withstand potential invasion from Napoleon's forces.." ✅
 * " with 1,531 soldiers of all periods and armies permanently on display." ✅ Removed as they were removed from museum in 2002.
 * "The political allegiance in Eastbourne swings between the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, the balance of power changing frequently. At present, the Conservatives have the majority vote at all political levels, except the District Council which was gained by the Liberal Democrats in the May 2007 local elections."✅
 * "Each ward returns three councillors, giving a total of twenty seven representatives." ✅
 * "Recent major housing developments have been aimed mainly at young families, and the provision of adequate schooling has become a key local issue."✅ removed pending citation
 * "and the town is growing fast." ✅ Removed
 * "This has led to many of the town's schools having unusually large class sizes" ✅ removed pending citation
 * "The inspectors assess management, resources and premises, teaching and welfare. ✅"British Council website quoted at end of para is the source Mikeo1938 21:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC) I consider this to be done: it's the answer to the final FAQ on the British Council website. Mikeo1938 21:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Pass! Excellent work. Epbr123 13:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

"Beachy Head lost much of it's granduer..."
I'm just noting this here in case anyone wants to disagree with me - I brought it up a long time ago, but it got lost in a larger (and rather personal) argument. I've removed the following sentence:
 * Beachy Head lost much of its grandeur in 2001 when its main distinguishing feature &mdash; the tower of chalk known as the Devil's Chimney &mdash; collapsed into the sea following a winter of heavy rain.

My reasoning being: Like I say, if anyone disagrees, I'd be happy to discuss further. - IMSoP 20:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) I've never heard of Beachy Head having a Devil's Chimney, and dispute that this (rather than, say, its position, height, and geology) was "its main distinguishing feature", and therefore that its loss would cause any greater loss of "grandeur" than the countless other large collapses in its (geologically recent) history.
 * 2) The phrasing "much of its grandeur" strikes me as more poetic than encyclopedic, though I suppose the two aren't mutually exclusive.


 * I remember it happening, although I didn't know it was called Devils chimney, until I found this article . Here is the picture, which is the one used on the stamp. . I am going to put the collapse back to pad out the geography section, as its evidence the cliff is eroding, but with a little less poetry.  MortimerCat 23:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Citations re local history
I will be able to fix most of these but can't do much this week. Mikeo1938 21:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I am hoping to get to the local library but that will be at the weekend too. MortimerCat 23:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll extend the on hold deadline by three days. Epbr123 23:49, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you MortimerCat 23:59, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Citations for Other Residents
I'd also heard that "Roger Moore once lived in the penthouse flat of the South Cliff Tower". However, over the past couple of days I've tried in vain to find a citation. I guess this and other unsubstantiated entries will have to be deleted pending further research. Mikeo1938 09:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * On Sunday, we should move the remaining unreferenced ones to the talk page and only allow them back with a reference. MortimerCat 17:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Aleister Crowley: I've amended this entry: his biography does not say that he was a pupil but that he "worked in the laboratory". Furthermore, his name does not appear in attendance records at Eastbourne College. Mikeo1938 08:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I realise the ref isn't as clear as it should be but here Crowley himself lists his education as such:
 * "Education: private governess and tutors, preliminary school Habershon's at St. Leonards, Sussex, private tutors, private school 5I Bateman St., Cambridge, private tutors, Yarrow's School, Streatham, near London. Malvern College, Tonbridge School, private tutors, Eastbourne College, King's College, London, Trinity College, Cambridge."

Shall we revert him to being a student? He did after all play on the college's chess team which further suggests he was a proper student.Malick78 10:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

OK: I'd not seen the earlier ref which you point out so for the time being, we'd better leave it as AC says. However, it may not have been uncommon for boys and masters to play in the same team in those early days; this certainly happened at E'bne Grammar School. Also, his reference to "working in the lab under Hughes and assisting in research" does not sound like the activities of a school pupil. In due course someone may research this further ... perhaps with access to the archives at EC. Mikeo1938 11:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * After Crowley's dad died he had access to lots of money - it would therefore be unusual for him to have taken a job out of necessity. I'd therefore read the 'working in the lab' as him helping out the master in a more informal way, rather than paid work. But agreed, if someone could check further that would be appreciatedMalick78 12:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * To make it easier to turn the other notable residents to prose, I have moved some entries elsewhere, such as Aleister Crowley to education. MortimerCat 08:31, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Amendments to Refs
I'm trying to add refs but having great difficulty without my broadband and using a stone-age computer. In Ref 5, we need Callaghan, Richard. Could someone pse change it. Also I'm wondering about the names in Ref 12; could there be a typo? (Mikeo1938)


 * This is not a mistake, not in the Eastbourne article anyway. The template asks for first2 and last2 and displays them as first2 last2. We must conclude that this is Wikipedia style, although I will mention this on the citation talk page.


 * The answer from the citation talk page was that this is correct. The main author is listed Surname first, for alphabetical filing reasons, any subsequent authors are listed forename first. MortimerCat 20:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

i-Mac RIP
disaster! My ancient i-Mac has died. I have many citations to add but can do nothing till I return to my main location on Wednesday. Can we get another extension? (I will not be able to read any replies myself but they will be phoned through to me) (Mikeo1938)


 * All the GA recommendations have been considered so I am asking for a further GA assessment. The next step is Featured Article status so keep improving the article. I dug up some more information during my the intensive research over the weekend, so there is more to come. MortimerCat 12:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

GA Review
Thank you, MortimerCat, for all you did ... especially over the last frantic weekend ... to steer the article through to the GA stage. Mikeo1938 21:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for you help too, plus thanks to everyone else who has contributed to the article over the years. MortimerCat 21:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Market
I've reinstated the note about the market. However, I can't get the reference to appear as it should. It is one which we already have: Stevens, Lawrence (1987), A Short History of Eastbourne, Eastbourne: Eastbourne Local History Society, ISBN 0 9504560 7 1 Could someone pse do it?

I think the problem might have been that the new fact comes before the existing one. I had to cut and paste the existing reference into its new position, although please check I have picked up the right citation. MortimerCat 20:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC) Yes, the citation is OK. BTW, that 32-page booklet is an excellent short reference. It's at the public library and in shops, of course. Mikeo1938 20:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Belle Tout
There's no "e" at the end. However, I can't easily edit from here. Could someone pse change the two recent edits.88.65.175.1 16:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It is spelt Belle Toute on its official website  MortimerCat 20:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

OK about the final "e" on their website but my understanding is that it has been spelled "Tout" for some 100 years. It was the Victorians who felt that French grammar rules should apply to an English place name. Previously it had been Bel Tout or Bel Toot. However, I cannot quote a source at present. (There's a similar place name at Fairlight.) What is given on the local OS maps? Mikeo1938

Following further inquiries, I’ve reverted the spelling of the lighthouse to “Belle Tout”.

I don’t know why The Belle Toute Lighthouse Preservation Trust should have added a rogue “e”. The place name “Belle Tout” is discussed by John Surtees in his book, “Beachy Head” (page 23 of the 1st edition) published by SB Publications, 1997, ISBN 1857701186.

The name is not French: the Belle was altered by the Victorians from Bel, as it had been on maps up to about 1820, and written up to 1867. It is derived from the name of an early pagan deity Bael. The hillock has long associations with Stone, Bronze and Iron Age peoples, including a Beaker people settlement of 4000 years ago.

I am not suggesting that we revert to “Bel Tout”, but that we remain consistent with the OS maps, which give the spelling as Belle Tout. Mikeo1938

I agree with Tout as this seems to be the most common spelling. I noticed it in yesterdays Eastbourne Herald (or is the Gazette on Friday) as a headline. MortimerCat 19:27, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Just thought I would comment that the main Belle Tout{e} lighthouse article has an e. The Tout version redirects to the Toute version. MortimerCat 16:31, 4 August 2007 (UTC) OK ... but it's been reverted now. The same applies to the rogue "e" on "Eastbourne.org.uk"  I think that an estate agent at Lewes got it wrong ... then it was copied by the Daily Telegraph.  Hopefully it's resolved. Mikeo1938 21:29, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

St Cyprian's School
Malick78: I’ve deleted your edit of 16 September because it’s a repeat of what already appears. However, I take the point that it’s useful to include the dates, 1899-1939, and these have been inserted above.Mikeo1938 16:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks Mikeo1938, sorry:)Malick78 20:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC) OK and thanks.  BTW, I'm wondering about the map of the UK that used to appear at the top of the article.   Are we supposed to click on another link to see it now?  Mikeo1938 21:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

GA Pass
This article has been reviewed as part of WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, Epbr123 13:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

List of Footnotes
The above is getting rather long. We have two refs to the book by Cullen one after the other. May I suggest that we incorporate these into one reference using superscript "a" and "b", as is the case for other such repeated refs? Malick78 - I've just done this for two separate refs to an Eastbourne Society Newsletter. Shall I do the same for your two Cullen refs?Mikeo1938 22:16, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Common references should be merged, I have done the Cullen reference. I often wonder if the Newsletter references should be merged. They need to be separate if a reader wants to locate a specific article, however if a general index is available to the newletters then perhaps they could be merged? MortimerCat 10:52, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

There are indexes in booklet form for Eastbourne Local History Society but not for the Eastbourne Society - however, the latter Society has copies of back numbers and some (not all) are at Eastbourne Central Library. Indexes for ELHS and can be purchased from the Society. Eastbourne Central Library has a copy of all ELHS indexes. People who are members of ELHS will have received the quarterly newsletters but few will have an index. I think we will have to leave them as separate entries. Perhaps in due course backnumbers will be put onto the ELHS website but this is a long way off. It would be possible to reduce the width of footnote 32 by moving a coupe of issues to where they appear above.Mikeo1938 13:18, 14 October 2007 (UTC)