Talk:Eastbourne/Archive 3

Uncited statements
One criteria for featured articles is having no unsourced statements, therefore I have removed the 3 flagged statements and listed them below.


 * More cars than average. The most common form of transport throughout the town is the car, and consequently Eastbourne has more cars than the average town, made even higher by the number of tourists and commuters travelling in and out.
 * Hampden Park busiest crossing Trains have to pass through the station twice on their journey, causing the nearby level crossing to be the busiest railway level-crossing in Europe.
 * Tennis oldest competition The International Women's Open, a Women's tennis tournament traditionally seen as the warm-up to Wimbledon, are held at Devonshire Park, it is the oldest such championship in Europe.

I have researched all three and found no conclusive evidence for or against, an encyclopedia cannot rely on hearsay. MortimerCat 09:13, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Hm, I just had a quick look for the level crossing one, and although not evidence per se, it's interesting to note that David Bellotti once made the claim in parliament according to Hansard... - IMSoP 18:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Other residents

 * Harpsichordist Violet Gordon-Woodhouse grew up at Folkington Manor just outside Eastbourne. Can we include her? The ref to be used would be 'Cullen, 2006'.Malick78 09:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed statements pending citation
The entries below were not able to be verified in time for the Good Article nomination. They may be returned to the article if a reference can be found.


 * James Bond star Roger Moore once lived in the penthouse flat of the South Cliff Tower at the west end of the seafront.
 * Eastbourne is the birthplace and early home town of British Yacht Designer Phil Morrison
 * Eastbourne was granted the right to hold a market in 1315, three years after a comparable grant at Brighton.
 * This has led to many of the town's schools having unusually large class sizes, and many children have to travel some distance when local schools have no room.
 * Recent major housing developments have been aimed mainly at young families, and the provision of adequate schooling has become a key local issue.
 * During construction of the new A22 route nearby several Bronze Age items were discovered thought to date back to 600 BC – 800 BC.

People
the chinese people are a common sight in eastbourne, but when do you ever seen a indian in the town, very rarely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.42.55.77 (talk) 23:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The demographic information currently in the article includes a reference to its source, from an "experimental dataset" produced by the Office for National Statistics. I agree that it's not what I would expect, and more importantly, it doesn't match the prose in that section, which I think were based on 2001 Census data (although I can't work out how to find that on the ONS website now). However, what would be the use of an encyclopedia that only tells you what you already know (or think you know)? Most likely, we need to edit the prose in that section to match the statistics. - IMSoP 18:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Archiving
I've archived off this talk page, as it was getting rather long, what with all the checklists and so forth. I've tried to keep parts that were still pending, but feel free to dredge out bits that still need attention.

I've also declared the collaboration sub-page an archive - it was a good idea, but hasn't received any edits for 6 months, and as such, I couldn't even tell which parts were still pending, and which no longer an issue. I suggest any points on there which still seem relevant are re-raised here for fresh attention. - IMSoP 18:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Automatic addition of "class=GA"
A bot has added class=GA to the WikiProject banners on this page, as it's listed as a good article. If you see a mistake, please revert, and leave a note on the bot's talk page. Thanks, BOT Giggabot (talk) 05:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Warren, East Sussex
I have nominated Warren, East Sussex for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/Warren, East Sussex.

The article states that Warren is part of Eastbourne, and I have posted this notice here hoping for some local input. Putney Bridge (talk) 18:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Miscellaneous section
It is best to avoid miscellaneous sections as they become a long list of unassociated facts. As you can see I have removed the one that crept in by moving the facts elsewhere. Having said that, the Chinese state circus has ended up as a one sentence paragraph, if anyone can improve that please do. MortimerCat (talk) 11:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The infobox
I have noticed that this article has the uk settlement infobox and the Hastings article has the borough despite the fact its the same situation with the two of them. Shouldnt this and hastings both have exactly the samae infoboxes? Blackwave...... (talk) 13:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, there should be a consistency in style. According to How to write about settlements Infobox_UK_place is the template to use. The template allows for the duel town and borough role. The Hasting infobox seems to be homemade and not an official template. MortimerCat (talk) 16:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Not been active for a while ... what has happened to the map from the info box? The pic of the pier is VG but a map showing the position of the town in the UK would be more useful. Mikeo1938 (talk) 18:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Have checked myself and a user called Kentem changed the infobox a while back from Infobox_UK_Place (with a map) to Infobox_Settlement (without). I have no idea why this is given the conversation which took place above. theolimeister (talk) 21:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I wondered why it had been changed. Although I fixed the UTC error I think the old one should be put back. A map can be added to the latest settlement template but it is not an easy task. The previous template was much friendlier in that respect. We seem to have a consensus to revert it but we should wait to hear Kentems opinion first. MortimerCat (talk) 23:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Good Idea Lets Revert To The Old One Unless We Can Put a map on. Blackwave...... (talk) 17:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I have now reverted the infobox back to the old one as we have now heard Kentems opinion. Just a polite note - it may help in future if all users remember to include an edit summary.theolimeister (talk) 20:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Adams trial table on this page?
The John Bodkin Adams page has a table of all the important elements in his trial and Eastbourne is one of them. What do people think of having it at the bottom of the town's page too? Malick78 (talk) 20:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The case is of interest and I can see the point of the link to the page in question, and perhaps a brief further note about the trial. However, I would personally not be in favour of much more. (BTW, I hitch-hiked around Europe in the late 1950s … whenever I told drivers the name of my hometown, they had invariably heard about JBA.) Mikeo1938 (talk) 21:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the current mention of John Bodkin Adams is sufficient, if anyone wants more information they can follow the link. I do not see the need to duplicate the information. MortimerCat (talk) 22:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, no table, but how about a mention of Adams in the history part? The Adams investigation and trial was arguably the biggest thing to happen to Eastbourne in the 20th century, made headlines around the world and made it infamous for decades. Malick78 (talk) 19:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think references to JBA are best in their present section. There could be mention of the trial and verdict, as in the 1st para of the JBA entry. I've not seen the book by Cullen, but question the statement concerning the relationship between JBA and RG.  Is this not merely supposition?Mikeo1938 (talk) 21:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Cullen is quite adamant that Adams and Gwynne were an item. A book on Adams by John Surtees, 2000, also mentions that their were rumours Adams was gay - though Cullen provides more proof. Malick78 (talk) 21:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Looking at other pages such as Soham and Hungerford I would agree with moving the John Bodkin Adams to the history section. I would further comment that this is an Eastbourne article. Expansion should concentrate more on how Eastbourne was involved rather than just giving more details about Adams. Citations of Headlines around the world mentioning Eastbourne would be nice. MortimerCat (talk) 21:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * JBA was an individual – his story does not fit in with the History section, which is about the evolution of the town. He was indeed notorious and I believe best left in the section about notable residents.  The present wording uses “suspected” and “thought to have”; I don’t see how one can be more certain of his sexuality. Whatever one may think of the verdict, it’s important to record (as does the JBA entry) that he was acquitted on one count and that the other was withdrawn.  Those interested will follow the link.Mikeo1938 (talk) 22:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Rick Martin
I removed Rick Martin due to lack of citation, I looked but found no reference that connects him to Eastbourne. I would also question his notability. MortimerCat (talk) 18:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Gary Newman
Thanks to (80.7.20.242) for the note about Gary Newman; but pse give a citation. It will best go after the note about Russ Conway but with the necessary citation. Mikeo1938 (talk) 15:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Peer review
The main peer review is here. I have recreated the points below so we can discuss. See the review for the full comment.

LEAD


 * ✅ "infobox image is fairly low quality..." I took the liberty of adding one of mine, but I won't be hurt if someone has a better one that typifies Eastbourne better.
 * ✅ "second largest settlement in East Sussex..." Removed whole sentence - its debatable whether Brighton is in East Sussex so I avoid the issue!
 * ✅ "Geographically, Eastbourne is situated..." Removed
 * "It has since suffered from the general trend..."
 * "what sunshine record?..."
 * ✅"'boasts' is used a couple of times..."

HISTORY


 * "Maybe separate out "the Roman x was discovered in x" stuff..."
 * ✅ "Redoubt fortress referred to inconsistently thru article..." We have the noun "redoubt fortress" and as the proper noun "Eastbourne Redoubt". I think they are being used correctly. There was a problem that "redoubt fortress" was being incorrectly capitalised that is now fixed.
 * ✅ "Some sentences here tend to be quite long and rambly..." (Rewording carried out)
 * ✅ "The town received more air attacks..." London is not included in the South East, but are we able to make that point?
 * I hope to be able to give chapter and verse shortly. Mikeo1938 (talk) 21:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It took a while to get this confirmed because my reference books are not to hand. However, someone kindly scanned the relevant pages from George Humphrey’s “Wartime Eastbourne” (the standard work re bombing in the town during WW2). GH is quite specific about this point and it is mentioned on the back cover and on page 7.

AREAS AND SUBURBS
 * "Quite difficult to read in parts..."

BEACHY HEAD
 * "Is there a source for 'unofficial statistics..."'

TRANSPORT
 * ✅"Listing specific taxi firms..." Removed.

CULTURE
 * "Could do with a few more photos..."
 * "Blue plaques stuff is interesting..."
 * ✅"Expand/explain VC wrt Nelson Victor Carter..."
 * ✅"The serial killer seems a little out-of-place..." Previously discussed on talk page.
 * ✅"why single out The Mobiles?..." Removed.

Making the article shorter.
I suggest moving the blue plaque section to its own article, replacing with a brief summary and a....

There are other examples, such as Oxfordshire Blue Plaques Board. We could even create an Eastbourne Society article if there is enough material besides the blue plaque scheme. Swindon Civic Trust is an example of this. MortimerCat (talk) 21:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I was just going to suggest at least moving the Blue plaque section to the end of the Culture section, and to move the St Cyprian's details from it to the notable students section at the end of the article. The subsections in the Culture section imho could be better ordered. Well done for replacing the lead picture, although I still would not immediately recognise it as Eastbourne pier. The text reads extremely well, but the pictures really are the downfall of the article. For such a visually rich place, many important views are missing (eg Old Town and the front) and others are sadly of poor quality (but then you get what you get). Just a point - surely Beachy head is worthy of more recognition than as a suicide site. Regards Motmit (talk) 21:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that the Blue plaque section could be moved to a new article; but the various people should still have a mention on the E'bne page. Otherwise we'd be left without the main personalities.  In fact, the other plaques (not those in the official scheme - Tommy Cooper etc) could be moved to his new article, too.  But again, there should be a mention of these names.  With regard to "Holywell" ... I got rather carried away when adding that piece.  This could also form a new article because there's lots more to say about it.  We could just leave a brief reference to Holywell on the E'bne page.  I agree about the lack of pix ... if I were there, I'd take some.  Perhaps someone reading this could take some more shots ... (?)  OK also about BH ... some brief details in addition to the suicide aspect. Mikeo1938 (talk) 09:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Is the new picture better? MortimerCat (talk) 22:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * To me it is certainly more recognisable (basically because the foreshortening in the other seemed to make the pier look more built up) but I would not put myself forward as the final arbiter. Regards Motmit (talk) 22:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The pic looks OK to me. Mikeo1938 (talk) 09:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Peer review/Images
I have added some images taken today but am unsure about ticking the images section of the peer review - are these enough or are some more required? There does appear to be sections of the article which I personally feel are still lacking in images. theolimeister (talk) 17:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Fine on the pix ... well placed to complement the text. Just some doubts re Gildredge Park; that shot lacks in interest somewhat. Mikeo1938 (talk) 20:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Certainly an improvement on variety. The overall layout needs tidying though. I think we may need to prune a few in some areas just so they do not sit on top of each other. Lose a few pier pictures perhaps. We need to stagger them, left and right. Then find some appropriate pictures for the bare areas. MortimerCat (talk) 22:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Great improvement - it's looking much more familiar. Can I suggest putting the "upright" tag on the portrait layout pics, and setting sizes to default (if not done already) - that reduces any clutter effect. Motmit (talk) 07:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Upright tags added, they were already at default size. MortimerCat (talk) 09:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Just added some more to the page - thoughts? theolimeister (talk) 21:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * With Firefox browser, the celebrity pictures overflowed into the reference section, squeezing the references into a narrow column. I removed a couple just to fix that problem. MortimerCat (talk) 23:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I support that in principle - the images are in the home articles. I don't want to start a popularity contest, but Crowley is relatively unknown and the picture is spooky (as he was), whereas Izzard is a well known and popular contemporary figure who went to two Eastbourne schools. Theo has done a really great job here and has captured a lot of really appropriate images. Well done! Seems like I am tasking but these are just observations - perhaps there are too many pics under Parks, while other distinctive images I would associate with Eastbourne are the vistas down the Carlisle Road area, Paradise Drive with the downs and golf courses, and the station roof which is distinctive but poorly represented in its own article. Motmit (talk) 07:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I hadn't realised there was an article about E'bne railway station. That pic could well go into the 'Train' section.  Agree that the new pix are good but, as I say above, the Gildredge Park shot is not very inspiring. (Not for the article, but the flat area in Upperton Gdns was once a tennis court; the gardens were fenced off and the owners of the houses around had keys to get in.  The same was true for Hartfield Gdns.)  I don't mind the spooky pic of AC but it would be nice to bring back Eddie Izz. Mikeo1938 (talk) 16:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The pictures I removed were at random, out of those four I did not have any particular preference, feel free to revert. Remember that this an Eastbourne article, we want to choose the people with the larger Eastbourne connection and not based on their national celebrity status. Plus, make sure the copyright is suitable. MortimerCat (talk) 17:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources
Peer review highlighted these as unreliable sources.

Editing Talk:Eastbourne (section) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediach as Toploader - www.muchmusic.com
 * The chalk contains many fossils such as ammonites and nautilus - www.ukfossils.co.uk
 * Eastbourne is home to some modern bands suhttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Eastbourne&action=edit&section=16
 * and The Mobiles - www.tonynorman.com
 * the arrival of Queenwood Ladies College - "Many Years Many Girls" says the publisher is the author

I personally cannot see what is wrong with them, they are reliable enough for the extracted fact, but unfortunately they fall under the heading of non-reliable sources. WP:RELIABLE So if anyone can improve upon them, please do. MortimerCat (talk) 21:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The book "Many Years Many Girls" is in the reference library. I cannot get there myself but perhaps someone can check to see if it was written with the help of the school or the association of former pupils.  This would mean that the content had been cross-checked and may enable it to qualify.  It would be a pity if we cannot state that the town was favoured in 19C by schools because of the sea air etc.
 * Ref 74 states that the publisher is "The British Council". Is something else required in the citation?Mikeo1938 (talk) 23:07, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have already added the missing publishers & access dates to the sources mentioned in the review. Ref 74 is a bit dubious anyway. After a redirect, it takes you to the Education UK website, but not the page where you could verify the fact. Having said that, the facts are irrelevant to Eastbourne, as the first reviewer said "bit of a tendency to over-introduce related subjects". MortimerCat (talk) 23:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Nelson Carter VC
There is more to say about the above but Wiki already has a linked article to NC. I don't think that we can say more about him in the Eastbourne article without saying more about the other blue plaque people. Mikeo1938 (talk) 13:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry to clarify, my point was that rather than just saying "VC", have Victoria Cross at least on the first mention - article seems to be coming nicely, keep up the good work! Paulbrock (talk) 14:13, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks - point noted. Mikeo1938 (talk) 16:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've amended the note about NC. Although he was born in E'bne, I don't think it was at 33 Greys Road.  However, it's clear from ELHS 143 that he lived at 33 Greys Rd with his wife before WW1. Mikeo1938 (talk) 16:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Holywell
I am about to create a new article entitled Holywell. This will contain most of what is currently said about Holywell in the Eastbourne article, but will later be amplified. We can then discuss how much of the existing text can remain on the Eastbourne page. This will address the comments in the peer review (too much about Holywell) and also serve to reduce the length of the Eastbourne article.Mikeo1938 (talk) 12:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Good plan MortimerCat (talk) 18:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The new article on Holywell is now done and much of the text about Holywell has been deleted from the E'bne page. If anyone is out and about with a camera, it would be nice to include a shot of the pinnacle in this new article. It might also be possible to include a shot of the Italian Gardens, homing in on what was once the terminal building for the cable. This is the small building to the right as you come up the steps.  I think it is now a shelter ... the cable equipment was housed in the part to the right as you face the shelter Mikeo1938 (talk) 23:20, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just looked at the pic of the Italian Gardens. The shelter / former terminal building is behind the seat in the right foreground. Mikeo1938 (talk) 23:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * How can we make the link take people straight to Holywell, Eastbourne? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikeo1938 (talk • contribs)
 * Use the following format : Holywell . It comes up as Holywell. Paulbrock (talk) 22:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks Paulbrock for explaining about the link. Also to the other regular contributors to the E'bne page for fixing. Mikeo1938 (talk) 07:51, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Whitbread Hollow
(also known as Whitbread Hole)

In Sport we have: "There was once a small race-course in Whitbread Hollow (now St Bede's school playing fields)." This may be correct but there is no citation and I have no means of checking right now. There was a racecourse higher up on the Downs. Does anyone know where this statement came from? Mikeo1938 (talk) 21:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

List of State Schools
Do we need to list every school. Apart from being a much frowned upon list, it is also a list of broken links. ++ MortimerCat (talk) 09:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)