Talk:Eastern Bloc/Archive 3

The map of the USSR'
Glad to see that my major comments have been taken into account by Mosedschurte. Few issues still remain, however. --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Moldavian SSR was created via combining of six and a half counties of Bessarabia with the westernmost part of the already extant MASSR (an autonomous entity within the Ukrainian SSR). In contrast, the present map creates an impression that the whole territory of present days Moldova had been the part of pre-1940 Romania.
 * 2) By showing the changes of western Polish borders, the map pretends to reflect all border changes in central and eastern Europe during 1939-48, that is definitely not the case. For instance the border between Romania and Bulgaria is shown in its post-war status, however southern Dorbuja was transfered to Bulgaria after the annexation of Bessarabia. Minor changes of Hungarian borders also took place after WWII as compared with 1938. I am not sure about other border shifts.
 * 3) Taking into account that the territory of Poland decreased as compared with 1938, the "expanded satellite states" looks somewhat odd.
 * 4) Therefore, it seems to hard to summarise in few words what caption of this map should be, although a caption is definitely needed.

Latvia (Abrebe district) and Estonia (two districts) were annexed by Russian SFR after WWII. Really this map not satisfy to the wikipedia (not high) quality standarts. Sorry. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 18:29, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And Vilno region was annexed to Lithuania. --Paul Siebert (talk) 19:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And Crimea to Ukraine (it is in Ukraine colors, but it became Ukrainian in 1956), Bialystok and Przemysl to Poland. This map needs a deadline of boundaries changes. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 19:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct. I didn't notice that before. One more issue: the legend's name is controversial, since there were no Eastern bloc in 1938. These words should be removed, and the caption should be introduced, something like "Border changes in Eastern Europe in 1938-48".--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Re: "Moldavian SSR was created via combining of six and a half counties of Bessarabia with the westernmost part of the already extant MASSR (an autonomous entity within the Ukrainian SSR). In contrast, the present map creates an impression that the whole territory of present days Moldova had been the part of pre-1940 Romania." (Paul Siebert)
 * Fixed (Transnistria exchange shown)


 * Re: "the border between Romania and Bulgaria is shown in its post-war status, however southern Dorbuja was transfered to Bulgaria after the annexation of Bessarabia. " (Paul Siebert)
 * Fixed (Southern Dorbuja)


 * Re: "Minor changes of Hungarian borders also took place after WWII as compared with 1938. I am not sure about other border shifts." (Paul Siebert)
 * Fixed - the Bratislava Bridgehead. Other than that, I thought that Hungary had to give back all of its Axis gains (prior losses under the Treaty of Trianon) with the Treaty of Paris and go back to its 1938 borders.


 * Re: "Taking into account that the territory of Poland decreased as compared with 1938, the "expanded satellite states" looks somewhat odd. Therefore, it seems to hard to summarise in few words what caption of this map should be, although a caption is definitely needed." (Paul Siebert)
 * Changed - Never thought about the aggregate land expansion/contraction aspect of the term. I just changed it to "New Satellite State Land".


 * Re: "Latvia (Abrebe district) and Estonia (two districts) were annexed by Russian SFR after WWII." (Bogomolov.PL)
 * Fixed (all three)


 * Re: "And Vilno region was annexed to Lithuania." (Paul Siebert)
 * Fixed


 * Re: "And Crimea to Ukraine (it is in Ukraine colors, but it became Ukrainian in 1956)" (Bogomolov.PL)
 * The Crimea (RSFSR then) is not on the map. If you mean the Black Sea adjacent Ukrainian section, it was Romanian and then part of the Ukraine since 1940 as the Izmail Oblast.  In 1954, it was merged into the Odessa Oblast of the Ukraine, which just created a larger Oblast.


 * Re: "Bialystok and Przemysl to Poland." (Bogomolov.PL)
 * Bialystok and Przemysl were part of Poland in 1938 and also in 1948, and remain pink, just west of the eastern border.


 * Re: "One more issue: the legend's name is controversial, since there were no Eastern bloc in 1938. These words should be removed, and the caption should be introduced, something like "Border changes in Eastern Europe in 1938-48"." (Paul Siebert)
 * Changed - I made sure to rename it from the original version the "Eastern Bloc Area" instead of Eastern Bloc so that it did not state when the Bloc was created (i.e., One could show the "Eastern Bloc Area" in any time, 1000 B.C., etc). I just changed it to "Eastern Bloc Area Border Changes 1938 to 1948"Mosedschurte (talk) 09:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * North Bukovina again and again - it was Romanian, but annexed to Ukraine (Chernivtsi oblast)
 * Karelo-Finnish SSR again and again - this republic was not annexed Finnish territories only, it was mostly recent Karelia Republic - to the West from Ladoga lake (where are RSFSR colors).Bogomolov.PL
 * Kaliningrad oblast boundary with Lithuania has to be 1938 border color, Lithuania/Latvia, Latvia/Estonia, Latvia/RSFSR, Estonia/RSFSR also. (talk) 11:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Re: "North Bukovina again and again - it was Romanian, but annexed to Ukraine (Chernivtsi oblast)" (Bogomolov.PL)
 * Fixed
 * Re: "Karelo-Finnish SSR again and again - this republic was not annexed Finnish territories only, it was mostly recent Karelia Republic - to the West from Ladoga lake (where are RSFSR colors)." (Bogomolov.PL)
 * Fixed
 * Re: "Kaliningrad oblast boundary with Lithuania has to be 1938 border color, Lithuania/Latvia, Latvia/Estonia, Latvia/RSFSR, Estonia/RSFSR also." (Bogomolov.PL)
 * That was the Germany-Lithuania border in 1938. Border lines which were border lines in both 1938 and 1948, even in different capacities (which occurs all over) are in white.  In this map, only new border lines are in black or green to see actual changes in border line placement (not border character).  The map colors show the character of underlying land.Mosedschurte (talk) 15:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It is much better now. I am not sure I din't miss something, but for now the map looks fine. Thanks.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:45, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

GENERAL OPINION ABOUT SOVIET SSRs: I think we don't need these boundaries at this map, if we erase Byelorussian, Ukrainian and Karelo-Finnish boundaries will be completely clear different nature of Lithuania/Latvia/Estonia as former independent states. The SSRs boundaries were not any international boundaries, but entire administration divisions only, this divisions are out of the article scope.Bogomolov.PL (talk) 20:07, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Karelian Isthmus former Finnish-Soviet boundary has to be black, Karelo-Finnish and RSFSR boundary needs to be white.

EasternBloc BorderChange38-48.svg map description. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 12:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Moldavian SSR was not annexed as it was created after the Bessarabia annexation from large Bessarabia part and large part of former Moldavian ASSR. So if even annexed but partially only, Transnistria not including
 * 2) The Transnistria exchange between the Ukrainian SSR and the Moldavian SSR was not any territories exchange (Moldavia gets Transnistria, Ukraine gets Izmail and Chernivtsi oblasts). USSR annexed Romanian territories and divided them in 3 portions (as with former Polish lands divided in 3 pieces). Moldavian SSR was created as a result of this "exchange", so it was not a Moldavian-Ukrainian exchange. These administrative divisions of USSR were not able to act independently, but over direct Moscow rulers control.
 * 3) Izmail oblast was not annexed as it was created after the annexation, this territory historical name was South Bessarabia or Bujak
 * 4) Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union - yes, this is more correct description as only after the annexation this territories were divided with Ukrainian SSR, Byelorussian SSR and independent Lithuania. So North Bukovina, Hertza and Bessarabia were annexed, but not Chernivtsi and Izmail oblasts and Moldavian SSR.
 * 5) What is the difference:"Transfer of territories" (German to Poland with total ethnic cleasing) and "annexation" (Polish to USSR with partial ethnic cleasing)? Both territories changes are respected as legal by the respective governments in 1948 (sorry, German government was not sovereign). The map reflects 1948 situation, isn't it?
 * 6) Why Dantzig annexation was not mentioned?
 * 7) Kaliningrad oblast was created in April 1946 after the annexation, so Northern East Prussia was annexed.
 * 8) Abrene district was not Latvia part, but Latvian SSR part, so transferred from Latvian SSR to the RSFSR
 * 9) Ivangorod and Pechory districts were not Estonia, but Estonian SSR parts when transferred to the RSFSR
 * 10) Lithuania (not Lithuanian SSR) got the Vilnius region from USSR, but not directly from Poland (see Soviet–Lithuanian Mutual Assistance Treaty).
 * 11) Not a part of Karelo-Finnish territory was annexed by USSR, but a part of Finnish territory. As this map deadline is 1948, as this territory was transferred to RSFSR in 1944, so it was not a Karelo-Finnish SSR part in 1948
 * 12) Annexation of Czechoslovac Carpatian Ruthenia by the USSR


 * Re: "EasternBloc BorderChange38-48.svg map description.''" (Bogomolov.PL)
 * As these are comments about the map "description" text contained in the map file text, and not the colors, border or legend of the map itself, this should be discussed in File talk:EasternBloc BorderChange38-48.svg.
 * I copied your comments to that page and am including a response, along with several changes to the file descrption text. Mosedschurte (talk) 15:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I've posted more comments at the discussion page, but I have several problems to be fixed at this map.
 * Italian Fiume and Zara annexaton by Yugoslavia was not shown at this map
 * East Germany - West Germany boundary needs to be green as a new one.
 * Karelian Isthmus former Soviet-Finnish boundary needs to be black as 1938 boundaries
 * Karelian Isthmus was transferrd to RSFSR in 1944, so it was not a Karelo-Finnish SSR part in 1948 and needs be separated from Karelo-Finnish SSR with green line.

Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Dates and Map for "Formation of Eastern Bloc"
What this article lacks, both in text and in maps, is dates on which each Eastern Bloc member "joined." There are particular dates that the West felt each nation "fell" under Soviet domination (usually formation of a new government)--but these dates are either not here in this article or unclear and/or difficult to find. A later map in this article shows the dates each nation became "free" from Soviet domination near the time of the fall of the Berlin Wall, but the when the Soviet Union formally came to dominate them is not equally clear. Please add. Aboudaqn (talk) 22:10, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Western Bloc
Western Bloc article is in a very poor shape. It could use improvement - perhaps editors who improved the Eastern Bloc article could help? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:31, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Politics
User:Mosedschurte has twice removed the above banner from this talk page, when the topic obviously falls within the project. Please keep an eye out in case he removes it again. Willy turner (talk) 09:21, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Yugoslavia??? I can't belive what I am reading here!!!
Please totaly remove Yugoslavia from the introduction sentences and from the map of eastern bloc. This is so naive to be written down. Yugoslavia was never part of soviet union nor of Warschaw pact. It was as much western as it was eastern state during the cold war. Actualy it was neutral, like Switzerland, Austria or Finland. The Yugoslav borders were totaly free to the nato states, not like the borders of east bloc. In the first map provided it is also not true that Yugoslavia was EVER aligned with USSR, even not in the period 1945-1948. Is there any treaty to prove it? No, there isn't.

This is like teaching children the days in the week..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.140.115 (talk) 01:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

@Quantpole If the introductory sentence states that east bloc is a synonim to soviet bloc then I don't see the reason that you ignore that. Yugoslavia was never part of soviet bloc!!Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 23:14, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I just checked German, French, Spanish, Italian, Hungarian, Czech and Portugese wikipedia and they ALL exclude Yugoslavia. Why is someone so persistant in english version???Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 23:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/eastern-bloc/ http://www.search.com/reference/Eastern_Bloc  http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Eastern-blocHammer of Habsburg (talk) 23:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Needless to say I agree with Hammer here. The whole issue is very misleading indeed. The country was a Soviet ally for some three years (1945-1948). When Moscow threatened to turn the country into an Eastern Bloc satellite of the USSR (as opposed to an ally), the country broke away and approached the West (the Tito-Stalin split). The country was the model of neutrality in the Cold War - probably the principal founding state of the Non-Aligned Movement. The SFRY eventually became a relatively liberal socialist country, even a major tourist destination for western tourists :P.


 * Yugoslavia's neutrality and its non-inclusion in the "Soviet Bloc" needs to be clarified completely, in fact, the country closely evaded military conflict with the Soviet Bloc on several occasions - if anything, the Soviet Bloc was more of an enemy than NATO. We also have Albania. If Yugoslavia is sourced as a part of the "Eastern Bloc", then the term is obviously not synonymous with "Soviet Bloc". --  DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 02:36, 25 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Just do it. Yaan (talk) 13:04, 25 March 2010 (UTC)


 * This matter was previously disputed and discussed at length here. I'll wait a while longer. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 13:58, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yugoslavia was a member of the Eastern bloc until 1948, but not so afterwards. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 09:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The article should state that clearly. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 11:15, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Just took a look at it. Isn't that what it does already ? Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 21:01, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Not quite. In the previous discussions an (illogical) distinction was made between being "aligned with the Soviet Union" and being a part of the Eastern Bloc. The current text merely makes the former clear about Yugoslavia. (I was careful about that when writing up the current text.) -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 22:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Yugoslavia erroneously named in the maps
I think it might be useful to any perfectionist map-maker to point out that the two images, File:EasternBloc BorderChange38-48.svg and File:EasternBloc-legend.svg, both use weird names for Yugoslavia.

Regards -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 02:29, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * File:EasternBloc-legend.svg uses "Socialist FR of Yugoslavia". This is almost never used, its like calling the USSR the "Union of Soviet SRs" or "Union of SS Republics". I suggest simply naming the country "SFR Yugoslavia", which is very common, short, perfectly correct, and would fit better in the legend as well.
 * File:EasternBloc BorderChange38-48.svg calls the country "Federal People's Rep. of Yugoslavia", which was a name used for 17 years (1946-1963) instead of SFR Yugoslavia (short for "Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia"), which was the last and today far more common name that was in use for 30 years (1963-1992). Again, I suggest using "SFR Yugoslavia" for all the aforementioned reasons.


 * I agree with direktor on this. Yugoslavia was not a "Eastern block" country by any mean. The short period the country was in the Soviet block is not reason enough to include it. I support its exclusion from the article maps. FkpCascais (talk) 18:07, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The Eastern bloc is a vague term (by contrast to the Warsaw pact), so Yugoslavia can probably fit the Eastern bloc member's criteria if we define the Eastern bloc loosely (although I personally see no reason to do that).
 * With regards to these two maps, they were created to push some concrete POV, namely, that Russia was the core of the USSR, as well as the EB as whole, and that formation of the USSR and the EB was a process of gradual swallowing of smaller countries by Russia.
 * In my opinion this is a minority or even fringe views, so these two maps, which carry no important information, can be easily removed from the article.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:45, 25 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I do understand that having had a Socialist system, Yugoslavia, in the eyes of many, would qualify as part of the "Eastern block" but, as the word "block" clearly indicates, it was a "closed system", and Yugoslavia was not part of it, and was vastly seen as "enemy" by the Warsaw Pact countries. In Yugoslavia, people travelled, had even more contact with the "west" than with "east" and the economy was working in a different way. For me personally, as I was raised as a Yugoslav, and travelled quite often while young, it was quite annoying having from time to time people wrongly calling Yugolavia an Estern block country... Any contribution by clarifiying that and breaking a common missperception is very welcoming.
 * Concerning the maps, they are needed, so having them as correct as possible is the best solution. Thanx a lot. FkpCascais (talk) 19:07, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Re maps. Could you please explain me what additional information the map on the right is supposed to carry?--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:44, 25 March 2010 (UTC) EasternBloc BasicMembersOnly.svg EasternBloc-legend.svg
 * The map on the right is a mess, I'd remove it completely. If not, then I'd certainly fix the "Socialist FR of Yugoslavia" nonsense into "SFR Yugoslavia".
 * As for the left, I'd simply fix the legend as far as Yugoslavia and Albania are concerned. The left map now uses "USSR-aligned", which is confusing in that the title of the article is not "USSR-aligned states" but "Eastern Bloc". For Yugoslavia, it should read "Eastern Bloc 1945-1948" or some variation or another. Albania, however, is a different story. This may be another issue I'm bringing up, but I'm not sure if the country should be considered part of the Eastern Bloc after Yugoslavia's break, since the country was cut off from soviet coercion and was instead under significant Yugoslav influence. Either way, I'd be fine with "Eastern Bloc 1945-1960". It seems far less ambiguous. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 11:12, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with the above. Removed the second map (ie one on the right) from the article.--Goldsztajn (talk) 12:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Lede, removed reference
Given recent discussion re Yugoslavia, I've clarified the first paragraph in the lede. I removed the following reference from the lede as checking it via google books showed it to be incorrect, p230 does not refer to eastern bloc, hence false reference. --Goldsztajn (talk) 10:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this needs to be cleared up for good. Was Yugoslavia
 * a) an Eastern Bloc country for the duration of the Cold War, just not "aligned with the Soviet Union" or part of the "Soviet Bloc" after 1948?
 * b) an Eastern Bloc country only for three years (1945-1948)?
 * or c) not an Eastern Bloc country at all, since it never signed the Warsaw Pact, and never really became a Soviet satellite state?
 * -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 11:50, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it's a problem, too. I tend to go with "c" in terms of your definitions re Yugoslavia, I think the problem is exaggerated because of the map in the at the beginning of the article which has the title "members" which is misleading since the eastern bloc never had "members", as opposed to the Warsaw Pact, Comecon etc.--Goldsztajn (talk) 12:43, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The "members" nonsense should be amended, obviously, but the problem remains. Is it "a", "b", or "c"? It has to be one of the three. I also lean toward "c", since "a" is kind of absurd and the three years ("b") can be disregarded due to Yugoslavia's non-subservient position towards the USSR and its exclusion from the Warsaw Pact (i.e. "Soviet Bloc"). I don't think a country can be outside the "Soviet Bloc" and yet within the "Eastern Bloc", the two terms are synonymous. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 12:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Definition of eastern bloc, yugoslavia redux
Definitions of eastern bloc: "Eastern bloc: the countries of eastern and central Europe that were under Soviet domination from the end of World War II until the collapse of the Soviet communist system in 1989–91." "Eastern bloc." The Oxford Essential Dictionary of the U.S. Military. 2001..

"During the Cold War, the term Eastern Bloc (or Soviet Bloc) was used to refer to the Soviet Union and its allies in Central and Eastern  Europe (Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and - until the early 1960s - Albania). The "Eastern Bloc" is also used as another name for the Warsaw Pact  (a Soviet-led military alliance) or the Comecon (an international economic organization of Communist states). Yugoslavia was never part of the Eastern Bloc or the Warsaw Pact." AllExperts

"The processes of change in the Eastern Bloc affected Yugoslavia as well, although this country, having been outside the bloc since 1948, had evolved specific political, economic and federal systems of its own." Encyclopedia of government and politics p. 1244

"A dictionary of world history" p.193 see "East-West schism" which talks about the break of Yugoslavia.

The single and only reference I can find which includes Yugoslavia in the definition of the Eastern Bloc is this: "The name applied to the former communist states of eastern Europe, including Yugoslavia and Albania, as well as the countries of the Warsaw Pact.", the reference which has been reinserted repeatedly into the lede. I see no reason to keep this reference which contradicts the basic understanding and widespread use of the term Eastern Bloc, which does not include Yugoslavia.--Goldsztajn (talk) 18:36, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Definitional problems
I've used this as the new first paragraph in the lede: The term Eastern Bloc was used to refer to the former Communist states of Eastern and Central Europe, generally countries that were members of the Warsaw Pact and Comecon, which were aligned with the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Yugoslavia and Albania are sometimes included as part of the Eastern Bloc, although both countries severed alignment with the Soviet Union in 1948 and 1960, respectively. The terms Communist Bloc and Soviet Bloc were also used to denote countries aligned with the Soviet Union, although these terms could include countries outside Eastern and Central Europe.

I think one of the problems with the previous first paragraph is the conflation of the terms Eastern Bloc, Soviet Bloc and Communist Bloc. The problem also is that the usage of the term Eastern Bloc can denote political or geographic meaning or both. I think it needs to be reiterated that the "Eastern Bloc" never existed in a formal sense, it was a political term like "Free World" (which also never existed), but the term came to have a use in political and historic discourse. Which is why in a formal sense Yugoslavia was never part of the Eastern Bloc (what is discussed above), if what we mean by the Eastern Bloc is those states, institutions and structures created or dominated by the Soviet Union during the Cold War. If on the other hand we mean Eastern Bloc in a undifferentiated informal way, as in the non-capitalist countries of Eastern Europe during the Cold War, then yes, Yugoslavia becomes part of the Eastern Bloc. So we need to be clear what we are talking about. Given that we are talking about countries in relationship to the Soviet Union and the Cold War, then it is the former we should be focussed on.--Goldsztajn (talk) 10:25, 4 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Please stop improperly deleting countless sources and text in the article. You have been warned before.  No one is interested in -- nor is Wikipedia the target of -- what you and I (or the 2-3 other posters in the section above either way) think encompasses the Eastern Bloc.  The term has been defined generally by four sources as along the lines of "the former Communist states of Eastern and Central Europe" or "the countries of Eastern Europe under communism".  Many sources consider Yugoslavia part of the Eastern Bloc, as listed, while several others consider them not to be part of that Bloc after the 1948 Tito-Stalin split.  All of this from both angles is briefly explained WITH SOURCES in the Lede.  This has now been described on the maps, as well, with differing legends from when members broke from Soviet alignment.


 * Honestly, this couldn't be more straight forward. Many sources consider the EB to the be the communist countries of eastern europe regardless of policy alignment, while some appear to consider Yugoslavia leaving the EB with the 1948 split (probably thinking it more akin to "Soviet bloc").  This is an extremely simple deviation easily described in the Lede.  And it is.  Rather than questioning any odd motive in the continued deletion of large amounts of sourced material on this straight forward concept, please please just stop doing so.Mosedschurte (talk) 21:37, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Please WP:AGF. There is no need to load the lede up with references. There are clearly contradictory usages of the term "Eastern Bloc" as discussed above.  The lede I have written above accounts for those contradictions. --Goldsztajn (talk) 21:43, 4 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Rather than discuss your improper deletions -- I have not time to blow at admin over this incredibly straight forward issue -- I moved the sources to the "Terminology and other countries" section below. The Lede now defines the term generally per the listed general definition sources without reference to Yugoslavia and Albania either way, even though the mass of ref'd sources include Yugoslavia.  The next sentence just states that sometimes Yugoslavia is included, and sometimes it is not post-1948 split, which is what the sources in the "Terminology" section describe.  Most of the Lede opening paragraph is the language you just inserted.Mosedschurte (talk) 22:13, 4 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Politically, Yugoslavia was more of an enemy to the soviet bloc and friend to the west than it was other way around. On the other hand, there is no mention of neutral countries in the cold war like Switzerland, Austria and Yugoslavia. I deem that the term non-aligned is the most appropriate since Yugoslavia was the founding member and leading country in non-aligned movement. For that reason, it was as soviet as it was western enemy/friend. For that reasons, Soviet block for Yugoslavia is really a nonsence of its kind.Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 20:22, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The definition itself, "block", indicates a separate part, a unit, and the countries that allied with Soviet Union did formed a solid one. The problem comes when Yugoslavia is mentioned. After 1948, it didn´t certainly formed part of that "unit", so whatever sources include it, it is wrong, and missinforms the public (already quite missinformed about history in general unfortunatelly...) FkpCascais (talk) 20:32, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

It can not be considered by some to be a part of soviet block and considered by some not to be. With this "scientific approach" wiki is turning into shit (sorry but no better expression is available). Every fact in the world can be considered by some not to be correct. That is not the purpose of wikipedia to state who consideres what but to state the facts.Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 16:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Factual errors
Yugoslavia was never a "satelite state" of USSR and the map and corresponding text are incorrect. It also got Marshall Plan aid, which is not shown on the second map. (Actually Yugoslavia was also never a part of Eastern Bloc, it's position should be treated separately.) Žarišče (talk) 21:46, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Very close to GA
I am looking at Talk:Eastern Bloc/GA1 and it seems like this article is not far from GA-class. Only a little more effort is needed... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:05, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Militaries
I know the AK-47 was a signature weapon, but what other models were predominantly used by Communist countries?--99.101.160.159 (talk) 22:11, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Eastern European Group
I've added the Eastern European Group, a regional group of the United Nations in the See Also section - this should be covered in the article where appropriate.--... there's more than what can be linked. 11:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Maps again
I have to say I'm pretty sick and tired of these maps on this article. Specifically, I feel like removing the nasty thing to the right. -- Director  ( talk )  10:55, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * #1 Why do all the legend entries say "Former"? Surely they were not "former" at the time communism was removed, some might have been, some might not, etc. Again with the simplistic and inaccurate approach.
 * #2 Why is Yugoslavia listed on this specific map at all? In 1991 Yugoslavia had not been a member of the Eastern Bloc for 43 years. Having been a member for just three years (1945-48).
 * #2 The years for the Yugoslav republics are wrong. Its not that easy.
 * #3 "Former Socialist FR of Yugoslavia" is just silly: the federal units of Yugoslavia were known as "SR"s ("Socialist Republic"), not "Socialist FR"s or "Socialist Federal Republics" or whatever. Yugoslavia itself was the "Socialist Federal Republic" of Yugoslavia.

East Germany
This section doesn't seem so well done to me.

First off, I'd like to know why it links to the "Marshall Plan", since that was for Western Europe, and this is about the Eastern Bloc. Shouldn't it link to the Molotov Plan instead? This seems almost like an instance of bias, and especially in light of some of the things that are said here.

Some of the things that are said which are cited as being supported by the Gerhard Wittig book seems a little suspicious to me. It is somewhat difficult to get access to historical monographs like that one-- monographs are nothing if not a niche-- so it's a little hard to actually look up he actual pages cited or something like that, but I'd like to go over some of it as best as I can.

The first thing that caught my attention as being suspicious was the part where it basically said that the Soviets were hiring ex-Nazi generals and such. Now, this seems a little credulous to me, almost, given the extreme animosity-- to say the least-- between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. I don't want to go off into hyperbole right here, but fighting the bloodiest war in human history, where the Nazis were trying to fight to exterminate the Eastern races-- that could be a source of animosity, even pretty lasting animosity.... And, generally speaking, it was the Western countries that were more likely to say that the war was over and all that, and that they should all act like friends and everything. The British and the Americans were the ones that were more likely to say that they had all been soldiers or whatever. I mean, not all of them, I guess- Eisenhower, for example, made a point of never meeting with the captured German generals during the war, and not acting jolly about how they were 'all soldiers', or whatever. But the attitude changed after the war, too. Even in 'Band of Brothers', at the very end, the German guy gives a speech to his guys, which one of the Americans translated-- 'It has been a long war, it has been a hard war', that sort of thing. It was like now they could begin to sympathize with each other, or something. But that sort of thing would not really have happened that way in the East. The Russians were far more likely to sorta hate the Germans for trying to exterminate them-- and failing, obviously. Even the examples of Red Army crimes-- such as the mass rape of German women, which certainly doesn't show the Soviets at their best or anything-- shows the extreme animosity between the Germans and the Easterners. I mean, obviously, a word like 'extreme animosity' is something of a light way of putting it. The Nazis considered the Russians and Slavonic peoples to not be human, to be like monkeys or something-- 'beasts in human form', that was what the Germans called the people who they thought were 'sub-human'-- in other words, they weren't *really* people, they just *looked* like people. And then they tried to exterminate all of them. The Russians kinda resented that, you know.

I know this might seem a little wordy, but I think that it's important to think about the words that we're really using. And, especially when it's basically impossible to look up the really technical reference of these very Teutonic, very technical, kind of historians, it's important, I think, to think about what's actually being said, and to think about whether the picture we're putting up here is even possible.

I mean, first off, you kinda have to put this in the context of what America, NATO, and all that, was doing, and how we were treating the former Nazis. If I wanted to take up an extremely hostile position, I could say that, By showing them with money, and trying to make them as rich and prosperous as possible, putting the Nazi crimes behind and focusing on the Soviets, and even hiring ex-Nazi generals and asking them to help the West figure out how to fight their old enemies, their old nemesis, the Soviet state, that we were sorta treating them like they'd *won*, on some level.

Now, that particular position might not immediately part of this article, since this isn't an article about NATO. (Even though it does link to the Marshall Plan, instead of the Molotov Plan.) But, now, what do we need to keep in mind. Well, I think that it's generally understood by students with a general knowledge of this era, regardless of whether or not they've read this or that particular monograph, that at the end of war the Germans were anxious to surrender to the Western powers, and not to the Soviets. The Soviets were deeply pissed at them, and they understood this. So, Germans stationed in the East went to the West in large numbers-- very large-- to try to surrender to the British and Americans. The only real exception would be the diehards who didn't want to survive, who wanted to die in Berlin. Now, certainly, the Soviets did capture many prisoners, because just because they wanted to cross the continent to be the hands of people they respected-- Hitler never said that the British or French or Americans were sub-human or anything-- didn't mean that they always accomplished this. But, basically, they were trying to surrender in the West, and once they got to the West, or, the ones who were there-- they surrendered pretty readily and in very large numbers, at the end.

Now, after the war, the Soviets ruled over East Germany. Especially in the chaos of the immediate aftermath-- and, to some extent, the entire later 40s is the immediate aftermath, in my opinion, to a catastrophe on this scale-- obvious all these political parties with very complicated names, that took awhile to form, even to start to form. But obviously what's clear is that Hitler was a very popular German leader is his heyday-- when the Germans were winning the war, for example-- and so there were many many former Nazis in both the East and the West. Since he was so popular and since his army and war effort were supported by the population so much, I guess that that's the context of talking about former Nazis in East Germany. Certainly the Soviets couldn't kill all of the Germans, or anything, they had no desire to do anything like that, since that's just not how they looked at the world.

But talking about them hiring lots of Nazis and trying to get their support because it didn't bother them at all or anything-- I think that that's not the correct thing to be saying at all.

I realize that this is a long thing, but it's also an important thing.

I mean, many of the German fascist military went to the West, served with NATO, advised NATO, and their memoirs of their military efforts in Hitler's war were translated into English by Western academics who wanted to focus on the Soviets as the enemy and forget about the Germans-- I think that this was all very common after the war. I mean, even at the end of war, there were instances in which the Germans said, We're prepared to surrender on the Western Front, but we want to keep fighting in the East. Now, the Western Allies, according to their WWII policy, were very firm about this, and said, No, total surrender. But, after the war, the politicians were trying to get Germans into NATO-- originally this was, 'Keep the Germans down and the Russians out', although I don't think that this was ever about *both* the Russians and the Americans and everyone, working to keep fascism down, together. And it quickly became, you know, Keep the *Russians*, down, or at least, *out*, and the Germans were the ones who were going to be helping with this. And the academics focused on translating the German military memoirs into English, there was no desire to get Russian memoirs into English. Actually, even *during* the war, Patton famously said that he'd read Rommel's book.... (And then, after the war-- all of the other books. I think that even the U-boat commander wrote a book. You'd think that English people wouldn't want to hear about how great *that* was, at least....)

But people in Leningrad were not reading these Nazi memoirs, the way that people in the West were reading them-- and in this very apolitical way, of course. (Certainly we can't view this as Nazi propaganda that was being distributed, as this corruption, or, anything, of course.) Now, I say this as the context for my statement, that if these German historian wants to say that it was actually the Soviets who were favoring the ex-Nazis-- well, at the very least, this is very, very surprising news. This is not, like, something which is one of the average usual expected things. This is something extremely strange. It's an extraordinary claim-- it needs extraordinary proof, or else what can we do except say that it is not right, but something crazy. At the very least, it's not something that you mention in passing, and then, you just keep going. No, if you really want to prove this, then you have to provide definite evidence-- certain proofs. At the very least, this is not one of the usual things that you should expect.

There are also some problems with other statements made in reference to this particular, Wittig, book. I mean, circumstances of the book being of limited distribution make it difficult to look up all the citations, but if he's really saying something so strange and difficult to trust in this one instance, now all of his other statements also become suspicious to me. In particular, one statement is made that the Soviets and the secret police and everyone were disturbing people and so on and on, and this is "proved" by putting it in the notes that Wittig quotes Stalin as saying that they want to keep them safe from foreign disturbances. Now, keeping people safe is not the same as disturbing them. Certainly, it's not automatically the same-- you can't just assume that it's the same. So that's not a proof. It's just not right.

This is what I'm trying to say-- all we have is this faith in people who might not be trustworthy. You tell me that there's the reference-- and I know that there's some obscure book, but I don't even know if the page that you provided is the right one, actually-- and I don't know what the citation really proves, or how, or anything. There's no real verification at all.

One last issue-- there's this issue of the borders of Germany and Poland changing after the war, and, although this is an obvious change, it's not totally arbitrary. It's *sure to look that way, though*, if you don't give any context at all-- of the German colonization and culture war against Poland going back to Bismark, at least.... or even the way that Germans acted in Poland during the War! Remember that?

And, as unfair as this might sound, I think that we should look at whether we are accepting uncritically the word of a German, a people who have historically had alot of anti-Polish sentiment. And, there's a small story that I have to tell now, because I'm not sure that people are aware of this. Last year there were disturbances at the Polish independence day celebration. Now, this is not unlike Cinco de Mayo or even St. Patrick's Day-- people get drunk. But, it was different because many of the people actually arrested by the (Polish) police were actually Germans-- there to protest the celebration of the Polish national holiday. (So, these are Germany's liberals, then {and *academics*, maybe} -- sure, sure, we're fascists or something.... so that means that you, (our victims), must be at least as bad! Or worse!)

.... So, the Germans still think that it is their place to explain to the Poles what fascism is-- although actually they did this, not with words, but with deeds.

In other words, all of it is extremely suspicious and needs to be totally re-examined.

And if I have spoken much, it is because this topic deserves consideration.

Kwiataprilensis (talk) 19:41, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Extremely biased article
I can't believe how awfuly biased this article is. Full of generalisations, false information, and tons of subjective comments. This is an issue which has two very polarized opinions, but history is as it is and must be told without personal opinions in texts like this, this is not a political debate site, it's meant for factual information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.42.234.197 (talk) 19:24, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Can you specify? Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 10:23, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

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eastern bloc economies.
so.. this article has two different tables. for instance one puts the albanian economy of 1970 at about half the gdp per capita of austria... while the other(for 1973) makes it one fifth or so.. uhm does anyone know which source is valid so we can correct this?Adrian234567 (talk) 15:36, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

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Per Capita GDP table
Hello ! We seem to have a disagreement regarding the numbers that should be listed in the Per Capita GDP table, and it's clear that this requires extended discussion, so I wanted to bring it to the Talk page.

Please notice that the source for the data, which is the UN Statistics Division, publishes two separate tables of Per Capita GDP for all countries. They are called "Per Capita GDP in US Dollars" and "Per Capita GDP at constant 2005 prices in US Dollars". The numbers you used are from the first table. But it is the second table that provides the numbers adjusted for inflation. Using "constant dollars" (in this case, constant dollars at the value that the dollar had in 2005) is how you adjust data for inflation.

The thing that drew my attention to the fact that your data was not adjusted for inflation were the strange numbers for the United Kingdom. In your table, GDP per capita for the UK is listed as $2,350 in 1970 and $16,275 in 1989. I knew this couldn't possibly be right - because it would imply an average annual growth rate of over 32% (!!!), which is absurdly high. I knew that the UK definitely didn't have the highest growth rate in recorded history between 1970 and 1989. So I went to check the source, and that is when I realized that your data was from the table that is not adjusted for inflation. The apparent high growth rate for the UK between 1970 and 1989 was actually just reflecting inflation in Britain during that period.

If you look at the second UN table, the one using constant 2005 dollars, you will see that the GDP per capita for the UK is listed as $18,818 in 1970 and $30,041 in 1989 (and $30,174 in 1990). This means an average annual growth rate of 3.31%, which is perfectly normal.

The second UN table is adjusted for inflation. The first table is not. We should draw our numbers from the second table.

You can also check other sources for comparison. They don't all give the same numbers, because they don't all use the same estimates or the same base year for dollar values (i.e. they don't all use 2005 dollars). But you will easily be able to see that GDP per capita in the UK did not grow 8 times larger between 1970 and 1989. -- Amerul (talk) 19:11, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Subjective opinion about using the term "Eastern Bloc"
Using the term "Eastern Bloc" reflects the ideological prejudice and negative attitide to some political and economical ways of developing, it would be better not to use that term under no circumstances. Foocoftwthse (talk) 15:00, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

The map "Political situation in Europe during the Cold War" has a color error
On the first map right at the top of the page, the one labeled "Political situation in Europe during the Cold War" :

the legend lists France under the light blue color, but France is dark blue in the map itself.

98.25.83.44 (talk)
 * Fixed. Thanks for the note! --Edcolins (talk) 20:07, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Opening sentence

 * The Eastern Bloc (also the Socialist Bloc, the Communist Bloc, and the Soviet Bloc) was the group of Communist states of Central and Eastern Europe, East Asia, and Southeast Asia under the hegemony of the USSR during the Cold War (1945–91), in opposition to the non-communist Western Bloc.

This ignores Cuba. It also implies the USSR was not part of the Eastern Bloc. The USSR was not merely an Eastern European country, and it couldn't be under the hegemony of itself.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:20, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Weakened Soviet Union
Under "Dissolution", the article says:
 * During the late 1980s, the weakened Soviet Union gradually stopped interfering in the internal affairs of Eastern Bloc nations and numerous independence movements took place.

I tried to remove "weakened" but was reverted. There is no citation for this sentence. There is no explanation why the USSR was considered "weakened". The implication is the USSR stopped interfering because of weakness rather than Gorbachev's policies or other factors, which is questionable.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:04, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * PS There is a later sentence which says, "The Soviet Union was struggling economically after the long war in Afghanistan and did not have the resources to control Central and Eastern Europe". Again, there is no citation, and at this point Soviet troops were still in Afghanistan.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:53, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Another lead issue

 * Conservative communist elites attempted to turn back liberal reforms and movements, which hastened the end of Marxist-Leninist rule in Eastern Europe but preserved it in China.

This sentence links to the Soviet coup and the Tiananmen protests, but neither of these are mentioned in the article. I think this is vague, misleading, and speculative. Perhaps the coup did help bring down the USSR, but Eastern Europe was already gone. "Conservative communist elites" is also POV. I would remove this and talk about specific events.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:11, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Albanian confusion
The lead refers to: "Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev's 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia to suppress the Prague Spring, which had led to Albania withdrawing from the Warsaw Pact, briefly aligning with Mao Zedong's China until the Sino-Albanian split". In fact, Albania was aligned with China since 1956. It was just that the formal withdrawal from the Pact didn't come till 1968.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:36, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The narrative about the invasion of Czechoslovakia and the end of the Vietnam War is also very essay-like, like much of the lead. Also like much of the lead, it has no citation and does not reflect anything in the rest of the article.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:22, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Surviving Communist states
The lead says (in bold): '''The only Communist states surviving from the Cold War intact are China, Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea, and Laos. Their state socialist experience was more in line with decolonization from the Global North and anti-imperialism towards the West instead of the Red Army occupation of the former East Bloc.''' Decolonisation is questionable for China and Cuba, and North Korea was occupied by the Red Army. The five surviving socialist states all adopted economic reforms to varying degrees; China and Vietnam are usually described as more state capitalist than the more traditionalist Cuba and Stalinist North Korea. There is no explanation what the "economic reforms" are, or what "traditionalist" means. '''Cambodia and Kazakhstan are still led by the same Eastern Bloc leaders as during the Cold War, though they are not officially Marxist-Leninist states. This was previously the case in Kazakhstan's fellow post-Soviet states of Uzbekistan until 2016, Turkmenistan until 2006, Kyrgyzstan until 2005, and Azerbaijan and Georgia until 2003. All presidents of post-Soviet Russia were members of the CPSU (Boris Yeltsin before 1990, Putin and Medvedev before 1991).''' This text is misplaced and rather trivial. It implies that people are unable to change their political allegiances. Are Cambodia and Kazakhstan "unofficially Marxist–Leninist states"??? Azerbaijan is an authoritarian dominant-party state and North Korea is a totalitarian one-party state led by the heirs of their Eastern Bloc leaders, yet both have officially eliminated mentions of communism from their constitutions. This creates a false parallel between Azerbaijan and North Korea. North Korea's constitution continues to proclaim itself a socialist state; Azerbaijan's doesn't. Azerbaijan dramatically changed in 1991; North Korea has maintain the same party in power etc. And again, what does "officially" mean?--Jack Upland (talk) 04:49, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Republic of Moldova and continued communist rule
This article lists a few countries that have retained communist rule. Moldova is not mentioned anywhere in the article (as is often the case). This country became, nominally, a parliamentary democracy, but the communist party continued to win, and rule, until at least 2009 (the real, official, old communist party, not just people called communists by their adversaries). As of today, there is a constitutional crisis, with several members of several parties claiming the right to rule (none explicitly communist, but socialist yes). As the communist party is not currently in power, I'm not saying Moldova should be mentioned as part of the list of surviving communist countries, but the country should be mentioned somewhere - communism democratically elected, at least on paper, for close to 20 years, and right now, in June 2019, a very unstable government in active dispute. The broader issue of whether what is happening in any of the other countries can actually be called communism is also important, but I don't expect too many to be willing to question it, just as few want to discuss whether what is happening in the former communist countries is actually capitalism! But if anyone reading this is an expert on Moldova, it should be mentioned in this article, at least once! Badmuthahubbard (talk) 07:34, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

I grew up in West Berlin and have seen East German communism in action as I had an aunt in the church organisation that Angela Merkel's parents worked for. Communism is about government ownership of assets, both businesses as well as real estate and planning. The latter is said to avoid duplication and waste, creating a monopoly. In practice these things do not deliver the goodies. The free market can be and is, like all freedoms, often abused. We see that with wage stagnation, insecure jobs, and even wage theft; biggies using their power to fleece those under them.

The former East Block countries are not communist now in 2020 because they have privatised. China has mixed ownership with good results. Norway has a government controlled rainy day fund which is a communist feature, because pure ideology demands that government should be small, assetless, and weak. Where these governments do not perform well enough there is fermentation. However, nobody demands nationalisation, so there is no communism, even though there are pockets.

When people can no longer afford the roof over their head (like in Berlin) they will call for nationalisation, like that of DW. But the IMF will not tolerate it, so the word communist has really no place in the current debate. Ally Hauptmann-Gurski 2001:8003:A070:7F00:4592:2CC3:5207:14E4 (talk) 06:28, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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Reasons for removing section
I removed the section "Eastern Block Associations Today", most of which was put in by Flamingoboomer9000 (now temporarily blocked from editing) and their sock FlamingoBrefan2033 (now indeffed). The section was completely unsourced, and was full of inaccuracies. For example, 5 of the 9 countries listed in "Eastern European Partners" are not in Eastern Europe at all, but rather are in Asia. The use of the word "partners" for these particular lists seems to have no basis in fact. NightHeron (talk) 14:07, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Changes to lead paragraph
Here are the reasons for the changes:

1. I replaced "communist states" by "socialist states". See the article Socialist states, which explains: The term communist state is often used synonymously in the West specifically when referring to one-party socialist states governed by Marxist–Leninist communist parties, despite these countries being officially socialist states in the process of building socialism. These countries never describe themselves as communist nor as having implemented a communist society. The term socialist states complies with WP:GLOBAL, since it was used universally, whereas the term "communist states" was commonly used only in the Western Bloc.

2. I replaced "hegemony" by "influence". The word hegemony implies control, and the Eastern Bloc included China until 1961, when the Sino-Soviet split became public. It makes no sense to suggest that the Soviet Union controlled China during the period 1949-1961. Tension between the Mao leadership in China and the Soviet leadership went back to the 1920s, when the Soviet Union supported a rival faction in the Chinese Communist Party. Just because the antagonism between the two countries became public only in 1961, that does not mean that the Chinese were subservient to the Soviets in the years leading up to the open split.

3. I changed the last sentence, since earlier in the paragraph the Americas were excluded from the Eastern Bloc, so those three countries of Central America and the Caribbean can at most be aligned with the Eastern Bloc. Also, Grenada and Nicaragua were aligned only for part of the time period. NightHeron (talk) 20:34, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:37, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
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Article omission
You failed to mention Yugoslavia, by mistake or design, right at the start of the page (where you stated the Eastern bloc countries)! 2A00:23EE:16F0:31D1:DBA4:2142:BA35:9005 (talk) 21:22, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (1945-1992) was not part of the Eastern Bloc. Instead, Yugoslaviia was a founding member of the Non-Aligned Movement. For more details, you can read on the Tito–Stalin split (1948). "Deprived of aid from the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc, Yugoslavia subsequently turned to the United States for economic and military assistance." Dimadick (talk) 14:49, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

False information
quote:The start of the disintegration of the Eastern Bloc can be attributed to the opening of a border gate between Austria and Hungary at the Pan-European Picnic in August 1989. In 1990 East Germany reunited with West Germany following the 1989 fall of the Berlin Wall.unquote. Obviously Fall of Berlin Wall and East Germany and West Germany merge as well as "European Picnic" happend months later than free elections in Poland. I think this article doesn't properly show chronological dates of events. Fall of Berlin Wall is dated on 9th November 1989. The exact date is missing. 188.147.104.42 (talk) 09:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Should Karelia be included in the sidebar?
Should we include Karelian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic as "Karelia", and if not why not? I do not have a particular view, but it is curious. Edwardx (talk) 09:32, 13 April 2024 (UTC)