Talk:Eau de toilette/Archives/2013

Napoleon's work-out routine
"Napoleon believed it would be too much to wear anything more than a quick splash of toilet water after a shower, sporting event, or work-out. This "splash" had to be considered proper for a man. His definition consisted of scents of citrus or a "woody" smell." How does Wikipedia—or its uncited source— know the details of Napoleon's workout regime (!) and his "definition" of a proper scent?--Wetman (talk) 17:33, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Other than the website for the reference I do not presently have an answer to your excellent question. Perhaps I should remove that section. I'll do some further research on this and if I cann't answer your question in the next day or so I'll remove that section and see if I cann't come up with another hook for DYK.--Doug Coldwell talk 19:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Took out Napoleon story and put in King of France Louis XIV (1638-1715) story. Will that work for you?--Doug Coldwell talk 20:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

etymology
...but why is it called Toilet water? Why, of all things, Toilet? I am confus :( --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 06:36, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that's because "toilet" used to have a different meaning than "place to pee into". See toilet. J I P  &#124; Talk 06:55, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I think calling the page "Toilet Water" is plain wrong. In contemporary English, this would be the liquid I use to flush the toilet. I don't speak french, but looking at translation web sites, French toilette also seems to translate as hygiene, so Hygiene Water seems more appropriate. Alternatively, I suggest that Eau de Toilette is an accepted term in English that does not require translation. Example translation: http://dictionary.reverso.net/french-english/toilette. 60.241.91.114 (talk) 08:18, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It might be akin to "toiletries". When I lived in France, "faire ces toilette" (do to one's 'toilet') would be one's washing routine in the morning and/or evening. Wiktionary has an entry for "toilette" where it talks of getting ready for high society events, or one's dressing table. ~Alosel~ | (Talk) 19:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Source?
The section "Types of Toilet Water", contained within the list, the entry


 * Frank, Marc Henry, Eugenics and Sex Relations for Men and Women, Kessinger Publishing, 2005, ISBN 1417989130

Since this does not seem to be a type of toilet water, I removed it from that list. I considered adding it to the list of sources, but decided not to do so, as it is not clear to me from the limited information available, just how this volume relates to the topic of the page. ÞorsHammer (talk) 06:38, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * That was an accident. I meant for it to be in the list of sources all along, however must have been tired and put it in the wrong place. I have since corrected that and put it in the list of sources as it is used in inline references.--Doug Coldwell talk 12:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Move?

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:59, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Toilet water → Eau de toilette —
 * Support - Eau de toilette is the far more commonly used name Dbpjmuf (talk) 23:14, 13 April 2011 (UTC) Dbpjmuf (talk) 23:14, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose: WP:ENGLISH. –CWenger (talk) 01:12, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. The first thing that toilet water brings to mind is the stuff that flows when I push a lever. The existence of a pure-English synonym is not always decisive.  (See Uncleftish Beholding.) —Tamfang (talk) 17:33, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Support (changed vote) I like the above logic that  Eau de toilette  sounds so much better.--Doug Coldwell talk 18:47, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Support "eau de toilette" is English-usage. "Toilet water" is not, or at least I've never seen it in English, so it would be rare. 64.229.100.45 (talk) 18:50, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. I have heard "toilet water", but "eau de toilette" is much more common, even in English-speaking countries, so WP:ENGLISH does not apply - we don't just translate everything into English for the sake of it if the foreign-language term is more commonly used. That would be really stupid and completely unencyclopaedic. But is sadly becoming far too common and apparently almost a mania for some editors, for whom any foreign-sounding word or phrase seems to be anathema. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:20, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * support, eau de toilette is much more common. sonia ♫  08:46, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I have no problem with either title, so long as the redirects work. But as to which is more common, that depends a lot upon the class of individuals doing the ranking.  In working class America, "toilet water" was more common. Among the literati "eau de toilette" was more common. --Bejnar (talk) 16:58, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Support - WP:COMMONNAME trumps WP:ENGLISH in this case. Also note the anti-vandalism advantages. Ng.j (talk) 03:31, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment - Second that of anti-vandalism advantages. I am forever having to correct it with the name it has now. The name is just to tempting now for all kinds of vandalism. As the original author of the article, I am willing to make the changes, since it appears there is overwhelming Support for the name change.--Doug Coldwell talk 11:16, 19 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment - not sure how to close this. Can someone help me on this....--Doug Coldwell talk 21:43, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 10:20, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Eau de toilette → Toilet water – This article was moved last year. But, the English translated version is more concise and more natural for the English-language reader, so it better satisfies WP:CRITERIA and WP:ENGLISH. And it is also more common per this Google Ngram: MakeSense64 (talk) 06:26, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose – Clicking through to the book hits on "toilet water" from the n-gram evidence link of the nom shows the term "toilet water" to have a prominent ambiguity. Many of the books use this term for things that are not within the article scope that is more precisely specified by eau de toilette.  Dicklyon (talk) 07:12, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * But most of the cites for this article are using the term "toilet water". MakeSense64 (talk) 07:58, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * How did you estimate that? Most of the 51 citations don't even have useful links to make it possible to see what terms they use.  Dicklyon (talk) 16:05, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose — I personally have never heard the expression "toilet water" used in English, except possibly in contexts where you would not want the substance in question anywhere near your face. The Google Ngrams citation is unconvincing in itself because different contexts cannot be distinguished.  Are companies actually selling this product under the name "toilet water"?  Are there some images of bottles with labels that say "toilet water"? — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 14:04, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * If you do a google shopping search for "toilet water" you can see that there are a few of those sold still, though you mostly find other uses. I think the term "toilet water" was a failure in the English-language market, at least in the US, which is why such products usually stick with eau de toilette.  Dicklyon (talk) 16:05, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The current title appears more common and is definitely more precise.  "Toilet water" is ambiguous in an unpleasant way.  —  AjaxSmack   18:07, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose for all the reasons stated above. Doremo (talk) 19:39, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose for all the reasons stated above. A typical hit I got for the proposed new title was Marty Becker, Gina Spadafori Why Do Dogs Drink Out of the Toilet? 2006 Page 1 "From a dog's point of view, toilet water is better because it's fresher, cooler and hasn't been standing around in a little bowl for hours and hours. It's magically changed, refreshed, renewed with every push of the handle." In ictu oculi (talk) 21:05, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Agree with AjaxSmack's reply: The current title appears more common and is definitely more precise. "Toilet water" is ambiguous in an unpleasant way.--Doug Coldwell talk 14:54, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The French phrase is still the common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:47, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * Comment. While I can agree that "toilet water" is sometimes used in a saying like "dirtier than toilet water", we should wonder whether that disqualifies this name. I would also invite the voters here to actually have a good look at the article. The lede already indicates that "eau de toilette" and "toilet water" have a somewhat different definition. What we call the eau de toilette today are light perfumes usually applied to the skin, while the toilet waters (of old?) are a bit broader in scope. Most of the article, as it currently stands, is actually describing the toilet waters and its history. Many of the given examples would not be used as "eau de toilette" by most people today. I also looked into this Ngram, which indicates that "flower water" has become more common than "toilet water" in recent years. So it looks like "flower water" may be an even better title. But since flower waters and eau de toilettes seem to be somewhat distinct, maybe we need two articles in this case. MakeSense64 (talk) 05:06, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. A Google image search implies that 'water in a toilet' is the primary meaning of toilet water. Glancing at the scattered images of 'eau de toilette' in the same search indicate that they are often displayed as examples of antique labels. Doremo (talk) 11:11, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. A Google search of For Sale "eau de toilette" gives 10,000,000 returns and at first glance most seem to be of a perfume product, where a "toilet water" search does not give the same impression. The article is about a perfume produce.--Doug Coldwell talk 14:51, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.