Talk:Ebirah, Horror of the Deep (film)

Merger
I am in the process of merging this article with Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster. I chose this direction rather than the other because the "Godzilla" title appears to be more common, based on the title of the available U.S. release on DVD, as well as its use in Mystery Science Theater 3000. I am hoping to use the fairly new   template, pending the question of how to document multiple titles. I will be sure to credit all contributors to this article as I transfer the information. If anyone has major objections, please let me know as soon as possible. &mdash; Jeff Q (talk) 03:12, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Wow! It was actually much easier than I thought to do the merger, since most of the info was already in the other article. (I've credited everyone here for their contributions in the Sea Monster article history, even those that were changed later.) I've gone ahead and changed this article to a redirect. I realize I didn't give anyone time to comment, but fear not! If anyone is seriously bent out of shape by this merger, you can comment here or in the other article, and all data is still available through the histories, to allow for changing things around if necessary. &mdash; Jeff Q (talk) 04:53, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Ebirah" vs. "Sea Monster"
On 31 August 2006, unilaterally and without discussion copied and pasted the content of Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster into Ebirah, Horror of the Deep and changed the former into a redirect to the latter, claiming in the summary of a related edit that 'Toho's official title is "Ebirah, Horror of the Deep"'. However, no source for this claim was provided. Furthermore, the cut-and-paste method has now broken to connection between Talk:Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster and its article, leaving the historical discussion "Illegality of Film Ventures distribution" orphaned.

We need to repair this damage, but first we need to identify the preferred Wikipedia title. Neither Naming conventions nor Naming conventions (films) really says anything useful on this subject. Discussions at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (films) were inconclusive. But the general Wikipedia practice is to use the best-known name in the English-speaking world, just as we do for any subject.

On that basis, I present the following information:


 * IMDb uses the transliterated Japanese title Gojira, Ebirâ, Mosura: Nankai no daiketto. However, Naming conventions (use English) recommends against this as an article title. IMDb provides the following alternative titles in alphabetical order:
 * Big Duel in the North (International: English title)
 * Big Duel in the North Sea (International: English title)
 * Ebirah, Horror of the Deep (UK)
 * Ebirah, Terror of the Deep
 * Godzilla Versus the Sea Monster (USA)
 * The Great South Seas Duel


 * Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster appears in the following sources, each of which carries a different image that has the same title except for capitalization:
 * Amazon.com: Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster, ranked #8,565 in DVD
 * Amazon.com: Godzilla Vs Sea Monster, #30,689 in Video (image says "GODZILLA VS. THE SEA MONSTER")
 * Amazon.com: Godzilla Vs. The Sea Monster (Video Treasures) #34,257 in Video (image says "GODZILLA VS. THE SEA MONSTER")
 * Amazon.com: Godzilla VS. the Sea Monster, #35,924 in Video (image says "Godzilla vs. THE SEA MONSTER")
 * Amazon.com: Godzilla vs. The Sea Monster/Godzilla vs. Megalon, #45,616 in Video (image says "Godzilla vs. THE SEA MONSTER")
 * Amazon.co.uk: Godzilla Vs the Sea Monster, #50,919 in DVD (no image, but Region 1 DVD is likely Amazon.com's)
 * Netflix.com: Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster (image same as Amazon DVD)
 * All Movie Guide: Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster (image is of Amazon DVD); "Ebirah" brings up this entry, too
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000, episode #2.13


 * Ebirah, Horror of the Deep appears in the following sources:
 * Amazon.co.uk: Godzilla Ebirah Horror Of The Deep, #18,831 in Video (image says "THE ORIGINAL / GODZILLA / EBIRAH HORROR / OF THE DEEP")
 * Amazon.com: nothing
 * Netflix.com: nothing
 * Toho Kingdom: "Review: Ebirah, Horror of the Deep". Note that (A) the image used for this film is the Video Treasures VHS which is titled Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster; (B) nothing in the text claims Toho preferred this or any other title; and (C) the page specifically says the website "is not affiliated with, or authorized or endorsed by Toho Co. Ltd".
 * Moviefone: Ebirah, Horror of the Deep; gets its image and review from All Movie Guide, which both show Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster


 * Big Duel in the North, Big Duel in the North Sea, The Great South Seas Duel
 * Nothing on any of the commercial sites; All Movie Guide brings up Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster when searching for "Big Duel in the North"

I'm sure I could look further, but the evidence of commercial value (i.e., how many people know the title from their DVD or VHS) and reviews make an overwhelming case for Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster. Unless someone provides substantial counter-evidence, Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster should be restored and Ebirah, Horror of the Deep should be the redirect. (The talk pages will still need merging.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:47, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * First off, if you don't know what the real title of the film is then you SHOULDN'T BE EDITING IT!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.23.126.230 (talk • contribs) 06:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If you don't know what the rules of civil editing are at Wikipedia, then you shouldn't be editing anything here. Please review Civility and other useful topics like Sign your posts on talk pages before resuming your complaints. As far as the name of the film is concerned, neither your personal opinion nor mine are relevant. What matters is sourced evidence, none of which you have provided. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

This is all very nice, but official English titles are dictated by Toho. The film was christened Ebirah, Horror of the Deep by Toho and released to the world back in the 60's. The film retains this title in Europe and Australia, but was changed to Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster for its U.S. release due to the fact that the inclusion of Godzilla's name in the title is far more marketable. For a list of all Toho's films with their officially designated titles, the best online resource is "Toho Kingdom", which has received support from Toho itself. Furthermore, "This page" explains that Toho prefers the international titles, which should be obvious because they created them for international marketing. I think we can all agree that Toho itself has the right to name its own product however they choose. If another example is needed, there is The OFFICIAL Godzilla Compendium which was completely endorsed by Toho. "Here" is a page with scans of the pages, and in the last scan we can see quite clearly what title is used for the seventh Godzilla film. ~ Teh Xilian 18:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * PREFACE: I am making a complex, lengthy argument here. Per Etiquette, I ask that editors not insert comments into the following multi-paragraph post, as I anticipate a long discussion that will quickly become incomprehensible if we start jamming in newer side discussions between parts of earlier ones. If one wishes to comment on this text, please quote excerpts in a new post, as I do below.


 * First, let me thank Teh Xilian for actually providing some evidence. Too many people have been doing moves and copy-and-pastes on these two articles with no regard to Wikipedia policies and practices, at most making unsourced arguments in edit summaries. A rationale discussion on an article talk page, addressing the points raised by others, is the right way to do this.


 * That said, I'm afraid I have some problems with the details Teh Xilian has provided.


 * "… official English titles are dictated by Toho." I have no argument with that, but as I've said above, Wikipedia naming conventions use the most common name by which a subject is known in the English-speaking world. No one would argue that Laurence Tureaud's parents provided him with his legal name at birth, but the rest of the world knows him best as Mr. T.


 * "… the best online resource is "Toho Kingdom", which has received support from Toho itself." This may be the best resource for fans, but doesn't necessarily make it the best resource for an encyclopedia that requires reliable sources. In this case — as again I said above — Toho Kingdom explicitly denies any official connection to Toho. (My exact words were "(B) nothing in the text claims Toho preferred this or any other title; and (C) the page specifically says the website 'is not affiliated with, or authorized or endorsed by Toho Co. Ltd'".) I would certainly be willing (and half-expecting) this argument to be rendered moot if proper evidence could be provided, but so far we have nothing but personal attestations, which are not evidence.


 * "'This page' explains that Toho prefers the international titles…". The link provided currently returns a "404 page not found" error. (By the way, it's not especially helpful to label a link "this page" or "here" in a text argument. One should say instead something like Toho Kingdom's "Site legend" page. In this case, I I had to deduce the content from the URL, but usually such a page has a useful title that can be used.)


 * I originally thought that the most promising item above was The Official Godzilla Compendium, which Amazon.com's entry claims was "published in cooperation with Toho". That is, until I actually read the Chad Neuping book review, the link above unhelpfully labelled "Here". (The web source, a website with an Alexa rating of 3.3 million, is suspect, but it claims the review was "originally published in KAIJU-FAN Issue # 8 Spring 1998", giving us a potential reliable source.) How does this disappoint? Let me count the ways:


 * Neuping's review makes no mention whatsoever of the title Ebirah, Horror of the Deep, although it does mention Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster.
 * Neuping makes an apparently strong case that OGC is "riddled with errors". Specifically concerning English titles, he has the following to say:
 * "In the table of contents, it is stated that Toho's official English movie titles have been used."
 * "… Lees devotes a separate table to the various movie titles of the Godzilla series…"
 * "For years, Lees has pedantically attempted to 'standardize' the American titles by only using the original US theatrical titles in G-Fan."
 * "… it seems that Toho who is attempting to change history with this book, another example of the cost of official sanctioning."
 * I say "apparently strong" because it's entirely possible Neuping has his own "revisionist" agenda. We must stick to verifiable information, so Neuping's info is only as useful as this source's reliability.
 * Teh Xilian says above that "… in the last scan we can see quite clearly what title is used for the seventh Godzilla film." I concede that the caption of the lower-left picture in the last image seems to read "Ebirah, Horror of the Deep" (although the scan quality gives a new definition of the word "clearly"). But what exactly is this evidence? The picture itself appears to be a film poster solely in Japanese, making this caption the apparent work of the book's authors, illustrator, and/or editors. There is no specific claim that this represents the official title.


 * Even with these potential problems, The Official Godzilla Compendium appears to be a legitimate reliable source (by WP standards) for information, and the text and tables mentioned may provide evidence that will help us decide on "Ebirah" or "Sea Monster". I'm working on getting a copy to peruse (oh, the things I do for Wikipedia! &#9786;), but in the meantime, here's a partial citation that may be used in the article, not only for this argument, but likely for quite a bit of material in many Godzilla articles:
 * I've left the pages, chapter, and quote elements blank, so they may be added as we obtain specific source data.
 * I've left the pages, chapter, and quote elements blank, so they may be added as we obtain specific source data.


 * Just for the record, I have no dog to hunt in this issue. I don't care if the article is titled Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster, Ebirah, Horror of the Deep, or even Godzilla 7: Revenge of the Kaiju, so long as we can come to a reasoned consensus based on compelling, reliably sourced evidence. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 21:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I finally got my hands on The Official Godzilla Compendium. I quote the following material:


 * Special Thanks: The publisher and authors wish to extend sincerest thanks to Toho Co., Ltd., for its valuable assistance in preparing this book.
 * Dedication, p. 3


 * PLEASE NOTE: Many Godzilla films have alternate titles. The titles used in this book are Toho's official English movie titles. Alternate titles are found at the start of each chapter and in the Godzilla Filmography Table in this book's appendix.
 * Table of contents, p. 4


 * 7. Ebirah, Horror of the Deep
 * TOC, p. 4


 * 7. EBIRAH, HORROR OF THE DEEP aka Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster
 * p. 35


 * JAPANESE TITLE: GOJIRA, EBIRAH, MOSURA: NANKAI NO DAI KETTO ENGLISH TRANSLATION: GODZILLA, EBIRAH, MOTHRA: BIG DUEL IN THE SOUTH SEA JAPANESE RELEASE DATE: December 17, 1966 JAPANESE RUNNING TIME: 87 minutes
 * Sidebar, p. 35
 * Note the 2-word "dai ketto" vs. the IMDb-cited "daiketto". I don't know Japanese, so I'm not sure if this makes a difference.


 * U.S. TITLE: GODZILLA VS. THE SEA MONSTER U.S. DISTRIBUTOR: American International Pictures U.S. TELEVISION RELEASE: 1968 U.S. RUNNING TIME: 82 minutes
 * Sidebar, p. 35

(I've used the original formatting, as close as I could get it, for maximum accuracy. Any use of it should follow Wikipedia style guidelines, however.) Most of the above information is repeated in the Ebirah entry on pages 142-143. In all, OGC is quite consistent in its assertion that the official title, per Toho, is Ebirah, Horror of the Deep. Despite the arguments made by reviewer Neuping above, this would seem to be a reliable source, and thus far represents our only book source for this information. It might not be as compelling as the plethora of video titling and website information, but I must admit my own preference for book sources and official vs. common information. Editors can do with this what they will; I feel I've done what I set out to do. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 12:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Do not copy and paste
People keep copying Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster into this page. This creates duplicate articles that get out of sync with each other. There should be only one article, with all other titles redirected to it. Anyone who feels that the final article should be titled Ebirah, Horror of the Deep instead of Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster (the current state) should make their arguments on one article's talk page and post a notice of the discussion on the other, so all parties are made aware of it.

I have previously done this in the above discussion, '"Ebirah" vs. "Sea Monster"'. I came up with considerable evidence that the best-known English title of this film is Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster, with Ebirah, Horror of the Deep being a distant second. However, working from Teh Xilian's information, I also confirmed some evidence for the latter as an official title. The article remained in its existing place because (A) those favoring Ebirah were either focused on vilifying the opposition, or failed to respond to my legitimate arguments, even when I gave them some support; and (B) no one else joined in the discussion.

As I said above, I ultimately don't care which title we use, but we can't just summarily change it or duplicate the articles. Make your case and win the support of the readers to make this kind of change. Don't just take unilateral action. Here are some relevant policies to keep in mind when making your case:
 * Naming conventions — general rule of "best-known English name"
 * Naming conventions (films) — currently not much help in this specific case
 * Naming conflict — how to decide between options

I hope this helps move us toward some conclusion on this matter. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 15:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)