Talk:Ebola virus cases in the United States/Archive 8

Structure
I'd like to make some structural changes to the article, similar to ones made before. There are two ways to make these: 1) Discuss each one first, explaining why the original edit (with a diff) is an apparent problem with should be changed; or 2) Just make the change with the rationale explained in the summary. Your choice, SW3. I've already noted a few of these, but will copy and paste them again if you prefer. --Light show (talk) 20:43, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * What changes are you referring to? SW3 5DL (talk) 21:31, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * First mentioned here, and in the section following it. If you need them explained beforehand, I'll create a separate talk section. --Light show (talk) 21:40, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * But what specifically are you talking about? Are you referring to edits I've made now, or in the past? SW3 5DL (talk) 21:50, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Mainly the ones from 10/18. You've only made a few since then. -Light show (talk) 22:08, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I feel like we're playing charades here. Today is the 23rd. Could you please show diffs and also mention what exactly are you referring to? And referring to a large thread doesn't help. What specifically are you concerned about? Thanks. SW3 5DL (talk) 22:11, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You made over 40 major edits over a few hours back then, some of which could use improvement. So I above suggested two ways to make them, but if you have any other ways, please suggest them. --Light show (talk) 22:23, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * And you came to my talk page and opened a thread here and that discussion, along with your subsequent reverts of my edits, seemed to have settled the matter. SW3 5DL (talk) 22:37, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I only made a two edits since yours, one updating the infobox and the other suggested by you on my talk page. --Light show (talk) 22:49, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * As so much time has past, and other editors have made many changes, and you've not provided any diffs, then perhaps you could raise the issue of content in a new section and ask other editors what they think should and should not be included in the article. And I'd offer diffs of specifics so as to get the best feedback. And can you answer my question about the image below? Thanks. SW3 5DL (talk) 22:54, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * What or who were you referring to above by saying there were "subsequent reverts" of your edits, which apparently "settled the matter"? It seems that no one has reverted any of those 40, 10/18 edits. --Light show (talk) 23:34, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I made section headings and subsection headings among other edits. They're all gone now. If there are other edits you have issues with, you need to open a new section and show diffs of content that you take issue with, so that other editors can comment. I'm just one editor here. SW3 5DL (talk) 23:50, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You said above that the new section headings you added are "all gone now." Only a few changes made to your numerous section additions, were only by other editors removing the sub-sections you created for each of the five evacuated cases, with the text kept. Another two subsections you added were removed, but text kept, were "Rejection of student admissions" and "Speaking invitations withdrawn," both of which were brief news items. On the other hand, you added a dozen new sections, many like "Effects on hospital", supported by little more than news clip items. --Light show (talk) 00:40, 24 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Your links are to the state of the article on October 18th, five days ago. This is the state of the article as of right now, today, October 23rd. What are your issues with the state of the article right now? SW3 5DL (talk) 01:06, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The links were only in reply to your comment, "I made section headings and subsection headings among other edits. They're all gone now." However, most are still there. --Light show (talk) 01:11, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * XD, I didn't add "Rejection of student admissions" and "Speaking invitations withdrawn." Those were made by another editor. I cleaned them up as best I could, but they were not my additions. A lot of that content that you seem to be referring to, as I can't be sure since you never provided diffs, doesn't sound like mine. I sorted material and made some subsections to break up walls of text, but I didn't add a lot of that stuff. I added the visa ban bits, and I deleted some section titles like the"controversies' section title. That sounded a bit melodramatic and undue. If you'd made proper diffs, like I asked, you might have figured it out.   SW3 5DL (talk) 05:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Specific suggestions
Feel free to either support or oppose suggestions directly beneath each one, and add other new bulleted ones.


 * Move Cases in U.S. health care workers returning from West Africa to beginning of article, before the Duncan case, for accurate chronology. Also suggest renaming to briefer, Medical evacuations from West Africa, as the 1st sentence in the section can explain what they were.


 * Comment: Reducing the article to a chronology that duplicates the List of Ebola virus disease cases article doesn't make sense. Dr. Brantly, Mrs. Writebol, et al, have recovered. They're old news. Even if new cases are evacuated, they don't represent the virus being diagnosed in America. Duncan, the two nurses who got it from him, and Dr. Spencer are the only ones diagnosed in America. Those are the cases readers will care about. In fact, the evacuated cases section could be moved off the article, as another editor earlier suggested. It could move off to the List of cases article and leave a sentence or two with a link. SW3 5DL (talk) 05:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Remove section International travel ban for monitored residents of Ohio and add the section's single sentence to another section with context.


 * Comment: I think the travel ban for Ohio could be eliminated. SW3 5DL (talk) 05:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Demote sections, Airport screening and Call for suspension of visas to subsections under a new section covering all travel aspects.


 * Comment: The visa bit can go, imo, since that's not taken effect. It seems its been dropped, at least for now. I imagine the issue of visa bans would make a comeback if the virus breaks out in other areas directly related to travelers. But otherwise, it's a non-starter here. The airport screening is an effort at containment and belongs in that section. SW3 5DL (talk) 05:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Remove section Operation United Assistance and add text somewhere related to the subject, as it's not about Containment efforts as most would understand the term. --Light show (talk) 02:54, 24 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment: Obama specifically said it was an effort to contain the virus to prevent it's spread here. He said if we want to contain the virus here, we must contain the virus there. He also said airport screenings were efforts at containment. Sending troops to set up hospitals is a containment effort. I don't think it's reasonable to say otherwise. Everything the government does directed at preventing the spread of the virus is a containment effort. That includes cleaning apartments, contact tracing, imposing quarantines, airport screenings, sending troops to West Africa, educating the public, these are all efforts at containment. SW3 5DL (talk) 05:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The term "containment" with regard to Ebola, or other past epidemics, seems to have a different and more specific definition than those. I checked sources by WHO, the CDC, the NIH, and even Obama, and they all use the term "containment" for either specific cases or very localized, containable outbreaks, which include steps like monitoring, quarantine and isolation. However, the extra-broad coverage that's now included in the Containment efforts section is closer to the definition of "containment" in the political sense, i.e. nuclear containment or George Kennan's ideas. If you want me to list the medical definitions of "containment" related to Ebola by all those other organizations, just say so. But the way it reads now, the section in the article includes seven subsections, but only CDC guideline revision would support the actual definition. The issue is kind of important to clear up since the subject of "containment" regarding Ebola should have its own section, and within that section would go the now separate major section, Biocontainment units in the U.S. --Light show (talk) 19:36, 24 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Light show, We need to reduce those subsections. One of the reasons I put in subsections was to also highlight material. So when some of the subsection titles got eliminated but not some of the material that went with them. . .my efforts were for naught, you know?  I believe we discussed some of the material in those subsections earlier. Remember?  The 'Containment efforts' section should include the Operation Assistance, the screenings, the things that Obama is doing. I know he's being criticized but I listened to his radio address on Saturday and he was on one of the Sunday morning shows, I think it was Meet the Press. I watched that. It would be helfpul if you would list here what you want in the section. The biocontainment units, etc. and we'll sort that. I think more space for containment and moderate space for the cases. Dr. Spencer needs his own section, and now the nurses can have less space, they've done well, one has been discharged from hospital the other is about to be, etc. What do you think? SW3 5DL (talk) 01:28, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that if you or anyone sees a problem with any edits I make, we can discuss them. Mass deletions by any single editor aren't useful for collaboration, as there have been nearly 50 different editors working on this article just over the last few days. --Light show (talk) 02:31, 25 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Light show, I think your constantly referring back to that thread is counterproductive. One minute you seem to want to collaborate, the next you seem more interested in beating me with a a stick because I made a comment/revert for which I apologized and was reverted, and for which I was lead to believe had been resolved. Either you want to move past what seems to be your hurt feelings or you'll continue to engage in a negative way. It's your choice. But I'll not answer your comments again. SW3 5DL (talk) 03:21, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I apologize for linking to that, but it's the only section about my edits to the article. I felt that by noting problems first and getting some agreement, that an effort to collaborate was implied. How many editors state their intentions to make improvements before making them? Not many. --Light show (talk) 03:43, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * But your issue was resolved there and on my talk page not long after, as you're well aware. And you only link to that first discussion as if all the subsequent resolution did not occur. You appear to refuse to let it go. Suggest you See "making an issue where none exists just so you can draw attention to the fact that you're still pissed off that SW3 reverted your edit even though SW3's revert got reverted by another editor about a minute later." SW3 5DL (talk) 16:17, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

more suggestions

 * Remove the major section, Biocontainment units in the U.S. and put its text within a relevant section. The two-sentence section is basically a fact, but lacks any context.
 * Per above, the section has been moved to be a subsection of the Containment efforts section. --Light show (talk) 05:40, 27 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Remove the major section, Public reactions, which consists of four isolated and unrelated news facts, most beginning "On October XX," but does not give any summary or general explanation about the public's reaction. The text should be moved to existing relevant sections.


 * Comment: What are the relevant sections? SW3 5DL (talk) 18:11, 25 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Revise the section, Containment efforts, and its subsections for more accurate context. Most sources refer to "containment" as isolating infected people, tracing their contacts to isolate them via quarantine, and only when a vaccine is available to vaccinate those at risk. It could include, for example, articles such as this one, about a new containment facility.


 * Comment: That doesn't seem accurate to limit containment to those few measures. Actually, containment refers to efforts to stop the spread of a pathogen. That includes any measures that restrict contact with individuals who are infected. Those measures include closing borders, quarantining individuals, even whole neighorhoods or other living areas, rapid burial of the dead, restricting travel, screening at large travel centers such as airports, contact tracing, stopping the pathogen at its source, and if available, using pulse vaccination strategy to eliminate vulnerable hosts. With the exception of the vaccine, which is being fast-tracked by NIH, all the above actions, except closing the borders, are being taken by President Obama, the CDC, and the governors of Texas, New York and New Jersey. These efforts should all be included because that is actually what is being done to contain the virus in the United States. SW3 5DL (talk) 16:43, 25 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Add a section for Preventive actions, or similar title, which would include travel screening, news about closing schools or businesses (even if unnecessary), etc. The current subsection, Operation United Assistance about the U.S. military helping in W. Africa should fit somewhere relevant.--Light show (talk) 03:13, 25 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment: Preventive measures include educating the public about how a pathogen is spread and behaviours to engage in, (good handwashing) and behaviours to avoid, (contact with the blood and body fluids of others). In general, preventive measures head off problems before they occur and would also include developing vaccines. So the NIH work on the vaccine could be included in a Prevention section. But once a pathogen is among the population, efforts such as Operation United Assistance are all actions to actually stop the spread of the active pathogen. SW3 5DL (talk) 17:11, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Prose
While we realize that events will change, the article is about a month old and some of the prose is excessively newsreel-sounding, IMO. For instance, there are 29 sentences that begin, "On October XX," followed by a news blurb of a sentence or two, ie. School closures. I think that rephrasing such sections and removing the police-report/news-diary sound, would improve readability and keep material in context. As it is, there are many strings of sentences that are dated factoids. Any agreement? --Light show (talk) 02:16, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * yes absolutely. This is a common flaw with articles that get started based on unfolding news.  Over time it gets cleaned up, but you're right the prose style really needs a lot of work in the direction you're pointing out.  The whole article needs to be rewritten as topics instead of this case, that case, the other case.    05:54, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think we can prevent that type of 'prose' at this stage. It might be a time sink, but I like the idea of topics. Do you have an example of what you mean? SW3 5DL (talk) 01:30, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Just compare Ebola response coordinator, which consists of prose, with the section following it, which reads like a bulleted-list of dated facts. --Light show (talk) 03:23, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

The New York Times: Wikipedia Emerges as Trusted Internet Source for Ebola Information


Might be a useful source for use in this article. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 03:08, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Numbers in infobox
The current set of numbers is a good start.


 * Cases contracted in the U.S.
 * Deaths
 * Cases first diagnosed in U.S.
 * Cases evacuated to U.S. from other countries
 * Quarantined people
 * People under observation
 * Cleared after 21 days

I'd like to see some additions and clarifications.

which would be equal to cases first diagnosed in the US + Cases contracted in the US
 * Total cases

Then,


 * Cases cured
 * Deaths (already present)
 * Active cases

Which also adds up to the total.

See any problems with this? Suggestions for improvement? Thundermaker (talk) 07:37, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Normal lab values?
Regarding Duncan's first trip to the ED, why did we write "Lab results including white blood cell, platelets, glucose, creatinine, and aspartate transaminase (AST) all returned within normal ranges."? According to the congressional testimony, he had a number of abnormal labs: From my reading of the document, he was neutropenic (3.08), thrombocytopenic (92), had elevated LFTs (AST 94), and had evidence of mild kidney injury (Cr 1.41).

Am I missing something? I'll go ahead and correct this unless someone points out that I'm reading the source wrong.Onefireuser (talk) 02:50, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The correction has been made. --Onefireuser (talk) 16:47, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Whoa. Wait a minute. We should be careful not to SYNTH and OR conditions here. You may be a doctor, but we need some verifiable secondary source that cites these conditions from the lab results. Here's what the document says:


 * Now I made the mistake of reading AST as "normal". That's a good catch. But the document notes everything else as being within the "normal range". I'm going to keep the 'low' and 'high' judgments (as they're noted in the document, but I have to remove the note about 'abnormalities ... some minor' as being OR not directly found in the citation. --  Veggies  ( talk ) 19:30, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree. Thank you for making the wording more neutral. Onefireuser (talk) 23:26, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Dr. Spencer's apparent lack of full disclosure
http://nypost.com/2014/10/29/ebola-doctor-lied-about-his-nyc-travels-police/. SW3 5DL (talk) 12:56, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

photo request
Can someone find a freeby photo of Amber Vinson? Thanks. SW3 5DL (talk) 13:42, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * A freebie picture of Amber will be harder to find. She didn't visit Obama like Nina Pham did (hence the freebie White House photo). Anyone know Amber? (lol) BlueAg09 (Talk) 14:02, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, that's the reason. I looked earlier this morning and couldn't find anything. I wondered why. Thanks. SW3 5DL (talk) 15:46, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Clunky lead
The current lead sentence is verging on unreadable:
 * There have been four cases of Ebola virus disease (EVD) diagnosed in the United States to date. Although first described in Africa in 1976[5], EVD was never seen in America until 2014.[6]

I suggest:
 * There have been four Ebola cases diagnosed in the United States to date. Although first described in Africa in 1976[5], Ebola was never seen in America until 2014.[6]

--В²C ☎ 17:39, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree. Although most of the lead, which should be a summary of the article, now seems dated and off-balance, as it could include more of the recent details from the body text. For instance, the last sentence is too limited: Public health experts and the Obama administration have opposed instituting a travel ban on Ebola endemic areas, stating that it would be ineffective and would paradoxically worsen the situation. The lead doesn't mention airport screening, quarantines, CDC, or evacuated cases. To make room, the paragraph about Duncan, for one, could be summarized. --Light show (talk) 18:11, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Page move

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved back to "stable" title per consensus. If the situation changes, a further move to a suitable alternative can be discussed as and when required. Philg88 ♦talk 08:30, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Ebola virus disease in the United States → Ebola virus cases in the United States – Discussion here shows continuing issues SW3 5DL (talk) 16:06, 29 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Support - Use of the word 'disease' is not neutral or accurate. There is no Ebola disease in the United States. There are only isolated cases. The title Ebola virus cases in the United States was previously the most stable version and it had consensus. SW3 5DL (talk) 16:06, 29 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose - "Ebola virus disease" (EVD) is the correct terminology. Source: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/ Petercorless (talk) 06:04, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The title here should match the titles of all the Ebola articles including Ebola virus epidemic in West Africa, Ebola virus epidemic in Guinea, Ebola virus epidemic in Sierra Leone, etc. There's no reason for this article to be any different other than the use of the word 'cases.' Ebola virus cases in the United States is the most stable, accurate, and neutral title. SW3 5DL (talk) 15:10, 4 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Support: Agree with rationale. --Light show (talk) 16:43, 29 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Support sure, with how the article content has been developing. It's not what I thought the article was supposed to be but I guess a more general article can be done elsewhere.    16:47, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Counter-proposal: Ebola in the United States.  Clear.  Unambiguous.  Concise.  Precise.    --Born2cycle ☎ 16:58, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The entire intro is wrong if you do not treat the hatnote as part of the intro, there have been cases of Ebola (Ebola Reston, or Reston Virus) previously in the United States, and zoological cases of Ebola Virus Disease in the United States in the 20th century. If we do not add "2014" to the article name, then the article should be expanded to cover the zoological cases as well. -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 05:47, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know where this idea comes from that titles have to precisely convey the WP:SCOPE of an article. It's nonsense.  Our titles don't do that.  They can't do that.  Article leads do that. The scope of an article entitled "Ebola in the United States" may or may not be limited to 2014, may or may not include zoological cases, may or may not include Ebola Reston, etc.  It's all good.  Title and scope are not so entwined.  The title should be clear and recognizable - the decision about article scope is obviously related but is largely separate.  --В²C ☎ 17:08, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support "cases" is much more accurate and precise than "disease." The word "disease" also implies that we might be discussing previous research that 's taken place in the US. "Cases" makes it clear that we're just talking about this current Ebola scare. Onefireuser (talk) 17:55, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support as above. Much more accurate and precise than 'disease.' Dr. Mike (talk) 19:48, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support but also support the alternate Ebola in the United States Gaijin42 (talk) 15:50, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose, contains information such as quarantines and philanthropic efforts which don't belong under the heading "cases". Support the alternative "Ebola in the United States" for this reason. Siuenti (talk) 08:41, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose as proposed because there can be no "cases" of "Ebola virus", because the latter is not a condition. "Ebola" and "Ebola virus disease" are synonyms recognized and used by WHO and CDC; if the proposal began with one of those, or "Ebola virus infection", the syntax would make sense. BTW, the term "disease" is accurate, because it applied to the people in the USA who have been infected with Ebolavirus; "disease" does not imply "epidemic".  -- Scray (talk) 20:45, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Neutral How about Ebola cases in the United States? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 21:09, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * , why limit the scope of the article to specific cases? That's not even true to the current content.  Why not Ebola in the United States?  --В²C ☎ 01:17, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

discussion
, that's too vague and would only compound the problem, but thanks for the suggestion. I believe it was suggested way back when the article was created. Ebola virus cases in the United States is accurate and neutral. SW3 5DL (talk) 17:22, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Vague? What else could "Ebola in the United States" reasonably mean other than "Ebola virus cases in the United States"? --В²C ☎ 17:35, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Use of the term "cases" makes the title more precise, since Ebola alone is defined as a disease, but up until a month ago was only a disease in Africa. Adding the word "cases" implies that it is not endemic or a recognized disease in the U.S., since it is restricted to a few isolated cases, which makes it more precise and accurate. --Light show (talk) 17:47, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Append: However, the word "virus" may not be needed, since Ebola is a virus. --Light show (talk) 18:16, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Again, what else could "Ebola in the United States" reasonably refer to other than cases of the Ebola virus disease in the United States? To claim a need for precision, you must identify what else you believe the allegedly imprecise title may reasonably mean.  --В²C ☎ 19:01, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait, you think since "Ebola in the United States" could refer to an Ebola endemic in the US, or it being a "recognized disease" in the US, it's a problem? That's the epitome of unnecessary precision.  Since we don't have articles about those more precise topics, there is no need to make this one precise enough to distinguish from them. --В²C ☎ 19:06, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Hold on, didn't you mean to say "infer" instead of "refer," which have totally different meanings? What I wrote meant "infer." As for articles about those precise topics, this article is mostly about those very topics, primarily devoted to cases. To infer that some isolated cases warrants it being a "U.S. disease" might be the epitome of an unnecessary generality. The CDC rightly calls TB a "disease", while describing "cases" of Ebola in the U.S. --Light show (talk) 19:43, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * If we had to make our titles so precise that they could not infer anything else if taken out of context, well, we'd be doing nothing but renaming all of our titles. You're basing your argument on a requirement for WP article titles that does not exist.  --В²C ☎ 20:21, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Is Ebola in the U.S. different from Ebola anywhere else? No. An article with that title would seem too general, implying it's about the disease. But the article is about specific instances, namely some "cases" in the U.S. Per guidelines: Titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article,. --Light show (talk) 20:46, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No, an article entitled Ebola would be a general article about the disease. An article with the title Ebola in the United States would be about the disease in the United States.  If there are only handful of cases, then it's about that.  If there are more than it's accordingly more general. But the title is appropriate either way.  The title of the article should not depend on how many cases there are.  Should we have a table set up that specifies the title based on how many Ebola cases there are?  That's just silly.     --В²C ☎ 21:42, 29 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Ebola virus disease (EVD) is the formal term for the pathogen. Sources: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/, http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/ 06:07, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Both those sources use the word "Ebola" without the word "virus" about as often as with the word "virus", so that distinction is too subtle for me. Art LaPella (talk) 07:20, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't mind if it was either "Ebola in the United States," or "Ebola virus disease in the United States," since it goes beyond just the cases into vaccines -- which, by definition, are *not* given to cases, but are given to *prevent* cases. Just so long as the misleadingly narrow "Ebola cases in the United States" is not the final title of the article. Petercorless (talk) 13:01, 1 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

State by State?
Has any thought been given to splitting the article up based on State, maybe structured like the main 'Ebola outbreak in West Africa' article? 72.224.172.14 (talk) 13:46, 30 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't think its needed yet as the number of cases is small, but if there are more significant outbreaks, it may be useful in the future. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:48, 30 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks. 72.224.172.14 (talk) 20:50, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Current tag
I'd just remove this, but I don't want to have the jackals on me for disruption or some BS, so I'll bring it here and see if anyone can justify the inclusion of this tag. It's meant for instances where articles are being rapidly expanded as information just becomes available. This is not the case here. Thoughts? -  Floydian  τ ¢  18:34, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, already been removed as it should be. Maybe we should start an RfC about whether or not to have it? -  Floydian  τ ¢  20:28, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Scope?
What is the scope of this article? It seems to be "anything about the 2014 outbreak of Ebola that has anything to do with the United States". The first paragraph is:
 * There have been four cases of Ebola virus disease (EVD) diagnosed in the United States to date. Although first described in Africa in 1976, EVD in humans was never seen in America until 2014.

I do not think this is a definition: for one thing, it's not reversible. We should have a definition, if at all possible. See WP:BEGIN.

Can you think of a scope that covers all of these sections?
 * 1) The four cases diagnosed in the US.
 * 2) Medical evacuations to the US. [These are not diagnosed in the US. Maybe the title should be changed to "EVD on American soil"?]
 * 3) Containment in the US. [With this, maybe "Ebola virus (symptomatic or not) in the US".]
 * 4) Treatment. This seems to be drugs and vaccines being developed in the US without any record of the work that WHO is doing in Switzerland and other places. These experiments are a lot closer to success that the US. Shouldn't this be moved to Ebola virus disease?
 * 5) Philanthropic efforts. Only of American donors.
 * 6) Operation United Assistance. Work done in Africa by Americans.

Can you think of anything other than "anything about the 2014 outbreak of Ebola that has anything to do with the United States" or "United States efforts in dealing with Ebola" that covers all of these?

Perhaps we could do it by steps. What about splitting the Containment section into its own article "Containment of Ebola in the US"?

--RoyGoldsmith (talk) 11:02, 31 October 2014 (UTC)


 * What we're currently experiencing is not really an epidemic or even an outbreak, but a "scare." In that context I feel that this article is really about the "2014 Ebola Scare in the United States." Given that as our topic, it makes sense that medical evacs to the US should be included (because they could theoretically transmit the illness to others here). Containment in the US should obviously be included as well. A short section on treatment makes sense because that is an important part of containing the scare. Philanthropic efforts and OUA may also deserve very brief mention here because they are part of the way that we are attempting to contain the scare by keeping Ebola "over there." Onefireuser (talk) 13:56, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * If we want to have an article named "2014 Ebola Scare in the United States" we must gather enough reliable sources (about fear to Ebola in the US) to be notable. If not, this is original research and must be deleted. We cannot use one name to stand for (wink, wink) another. I guess what I'm really asking is what was the scope of this article when it was approved for notability and has it changed significantly since then? --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 14:46, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I wasn't involved in the early stages of working on this article and so I'm not sure what was initially notable about it. At this time, it does seem that the occurrence of the disease in the US and all the various aspects of the response can merit its own article (ie this article). I'm not sure what the best term for what we're experiencing is. (See the above discussion about changing the title.) It does meet the WHO definition of an "outbreak." However, using the term outbreak--even if technically correct--seems misleading. I guess what I'm saying is that I also don't know what other editors consider the scope of the article to be. I think the current scope is reasonable (if we are talking about the 2014 Ebola "excitement"), but I'm sure a narrower scope would be reasonable too. Onefireuser (talk) 15:57, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Counter-proposal: How about the United States in the 2014 Ebola virus epidemic? This is a far reach from the suggested titles above, but it's mostly true since the epidemic did not reach the U.S., it is the U.S. that is combating the epidemic. Although this is a lame proposal, it covers the U.S. involvement and the cases of the disease at once. Epicgenius (talk) 16:28, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Ebola virus is not endemic to the United States. Ebola virus has come to the United States as a result of travelers but it has not spread as it did in Sierra Leone, Liberia, et al. So far the only cases of transmitted virus while in the United States were the nurses who cared for the first diagnosed patient, Thomas Duncan. The article covers the cases, the reaction of state and federal government to treat and contain the virus, as well as important information on treatment and vaccine development. It includes a section on public concerns. Creating an article to focus only on the 'fears' in the U.S. might be problematic. What's wrong with people being afraid of something that causes death in 70% of it's victims, is poorly understood by the CDC as evidenced by their ever changing stance on transmission, and for which there is no vaccine, but there are expensive treatments if you're lucky enough to have the same blood type as Dr. Brantly and nurse Writebol? SW3 5DL (talk) 16:58, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * There are multiple scopes:
 * The four cases diagnosed in the U.S.
 * The six medevac cases to the U.S.
 * The mass public hysteria of Ebola in the U.S.
 * What is being done by the U.S. to stop Ebola
 * That is what I am basically explaining in my previous comment. Again, I don't endorse the title I proposed, as there may be a better name, Epicgenius (talk) 15:39, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Epicgenius, Why suggest a title you don't endorse? SW3 5DL (talk) 15:59, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Clarification: I endorsed it before. I don't know what to endorse now. Epicgenius (talk) 23:25, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
 * One way to clarify the scope of the article is to start with a clean slate and just answer 6 key questions: who, what, where, when, how and why. Briefly, here are some ideas. Who: The people who contracted Ebola and were eventually treated in the U.S. What: Cases, a few quickly isolated and contained, as opposed to an "outbreak" of uncontained cases. Where: In the U.S., cities or states or hospitals included. When: Beginning in 2014. How: Evacuated cases, unrecognized Duncan case, which infected his nurses. And Why: Because this was a new and unexpected situation for which we were unprepared.
 * Since Ebola is a disease and nothing but a disease, having "Ebola disease" in the title is redundant. What's unique and why a separate article wisely started by SW3 is fine is that Ebola in the U.S., so far, has been limited to a few contained "cases," which could be made clearer per the suggested title. --Light show (talk) 18:16, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Per Light show re: the use of 'disease.' And note also, it's an imported virus, it's not an endemic virus, like chicken pox and measles. No cases in America would ever occur without the virus first breaking out in Africa where it is endemic. To date, only two cases have resulted from direct transmission on U.S. soil and those were nurses caring for Thomas Duncan, the first case brought to the U.S. As President Obama has said, an epidemic of Ebola virus is not expected in the United States. SW3 5DL (talk) 19:28, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Ebola does not necessarily mean the disease; see Ebola virus disease vs. Ebola virus vs. Ebola virus epidemic in West Africa. Also, if we take our scope to be "The people who contracted Ebola and were eventually treated in the U.S." then all talk about Kaci Hickox should be eliminated -- as of right now, she has not contracted Ebola nor has she been treated for Ebola in the US. If you want to keep all of the sections in the article then you must come up with a fairly short (a paragraph? two at most?) description that summarizes all the material in the article AND a really short phrase for the article title.
 * How about "Response to the Ebola virus in the United States"? I think this covers all the sections we currently have. Leaving out the word "disease" makes it clear that we are also talking about the containment measures and the fear.
 * Being bold, I've changed the hatnote and first paragraph. If this is OK, we might start thinking about moving the article title to something involving the word "Response" (with a redirect from the current title). --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 06:43, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
 * No problem, but I reverted since that's a major change that needs consensus. Consider starting a talk section about this with a rationale. --Light show (talk) 07:35, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

The current scope of the article as measured by body text is 55% about the individual cases. The other 45% is mostly about topics resulting from those U.S. cases. Light show (talk) 04:32, 2 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry but I thought this was a talk section about defining and possibly renaming the article. BTW, I agree with you. We should have one article on "Cases of Ebola in the US" and others on other topics; for example, Operation United Assistance, Treatment and Vaccines.
 * I was only responding to the initial question for this section, "What is the scope of this article?" --Light show (talk) 17:47, 2 November 2014 (UTC)