Talk:Echo (miniseries)/Archive 1

New head writer?
shared this at the TV series list talk and I felt it should be added here/also discussed, that Marion Dayre has tweeted that she is the "lead" writer of this series, so maybe the Cohen's got replaced? Her Twitter bio also says she is a "TV writer/Showrunner" for TBA at Marvel. Something to look out for I think... - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:58, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Marion Dayre also made a post on Instagram, using the term "Head writer" specifically. She also tagged a group of people, apparently the members of the writer's room for the series. Just a detail: Emily Cohen has an Instagram account and since she is not mentioned by Dayre in that post, I think the Cohen's are no longer involved in the show. YgorD3 (talk) 16:54, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, this does seem to indicate that Dayre is the head writer, and those very well seem to be the writers room. It's odd that the Cohens aren't being mentioned, and notable. We'll definitely have to wait to see if a reliable source will pick up on/clarify this. Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:58, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Murphy's Multiverse has made a post, which we can't use, but it is something. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:15, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Move draft?
The AJC article from mid-March said filming starts today, April 4. Do we want to use that to justify filming starting, or wait to see if someone like Alaqua Cox makes a social media post? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:06, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I would be fine with moving this based on the AJC article if others are, but it would be nice to wait and see if any posts are made to back it up further. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:34, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * We do know per the extras casting that filming should be starting by the middle of the month if we don't get anything now. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:45, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Actually, I just checked the Georgia Film Office for today and it lists "Grasshopper" as filming. We'll obviously need a third-party source as this is accurate today, even with an archive. It is currently in the process of being archived. I'm in the process of adding it to the articles, given we did the same for the Halloween special. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:53, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * The Georgia site is for in production or prepping, and if I recall, when we used it for the Werewolf by Night special, Grasshopper was on there at that time. Could be wrong though, but that would then mean it isn't the most useful for us to move. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:08, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, you could be right about that. If we end up removing that source, we can always wait for a third-party one or any posts that confirm filming. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:11, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I think we should move when filming is actually confirmed to have happened/been happening. – SirDot (talk) 15:51, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Added in a source from ComicBook citing Production Weekly saying filming starts April 25. That seems solid enough for us to move that day. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:13, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
 * It sure does. Glad we have that now. Trailblazer101 (talk) 00:42, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Alaqua Cox revealed filming starts tomorrow (April 21). We can move the draft then. We'll likely get more sources on this then. If not, we can just use this article to support it. Trailblazer101 (talk) 21:06, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I will try to move this in the AM. I'll be able to hop on to perform the move, but won't be able to spend time making post-move adjustments, if anyone can help with that. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I can handle the post-move adjustments. Trailblazer101 (talk) 13:45, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Daredevil and Kingpin
No reliable source has said that Daredevil and Kingpin are in the show. Although they most likely will be featured, we should remove them from the page until a more reliable source confirms their return. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:F2C0:E584:501:B908:E34D:88AB:3BEF (talk) 03:48, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The information of their involvement is traced from the official resume of the costume desinger for this series, and was corroborated by Comic Book Resources and other websites that are deemed reliable. Trailblazer101 (talk) 03:52, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @Trailblazer101 I will gladly discuss this here rather than engage in a persistent edit war. For every single other Marvel project, we use the official cast lists. Despite the heavy rumors that Garfield and Maguire would resume their roles in Spider-Man, we kept them out of the Wikipedia cast list until the movie came out and confirmed their involvement. Same goes for the cameos in Multiverse of Madness. Same goes for the Namor rumors for Black Panther II. Rumor.
 * Regarding Stacy Caballero's resume, I agree with you: the leaks look pretty compelling, and it is likely that we see these iconic characters again. However, it is technically Original research to assume that D'Onofrio and Cox's names mean that they are referring to their Kingpin and Daredevil characters respectively. No matter which way you look at it, it is original research by Comic Book Resources, and by the editors that support their premature inclusion in this article and others. If you need to put a blurb in production about their rumored involvement, that is fine. But the only thing we can say is objective fact is that D'Onofrio and Cox are rumored to be involved in some capacity. TNstingray (talk) 21:47, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @Trailblazer101Also, regarding Status Quo, this is not true. As I am delving through related articles, only about half or so even reflect the actors' rumored involvement. Take that for what it's worth, which is that there is not actually a Status Quo "accepted across the MCU articles where this content is relevant." TNstingray (talk) 21:50, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @Trailblazer101 If anything, the information should be presented exactly as it is on Matt Murdock (Marvel Cinematic Universe):
 * "and costume designer Stacy Caballero revealed Cox's involvement in the Disney+ television series Echo (2023) in April."
 * That is honestly a perfect compromise if you are willing to accept it. It reports the objective truth without original research/speculation. The information is included somewhere in the article, but the cast lists still uses those actors officially listed by Marvel. TNstingray (talk) 21:54, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * We don't use to confirm someone's appearance. We use secondary sources all the time, sometimes actors aren't ever "officially" confirmed to be included by Marvel itself, but they are confirmed by reliable secondary sources. By definition, CBR can't be WP:OR, original research is made by us Wikipedians, not by reliable sources. In any case, what could apply to a reliable source is WP:FRUIT, if the reliable source is citing an unreliable source as their source. —El Millo (talk) 22:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @Facu-el Millo @Trailblazer101 Either way, it is still Original Research to include D'Onofrio and Cox in the cast list based on this CBR source. All it confirms is their technical involvement in the project, though we do not know the capacity. Currently, the Wikipedia article lists them as starring. That is Original Research, and that is very irresponsible for Wikipedia to jump the gun like that. My example compromise solves these problems by discussing their involvement without listing them in the cast until we get more information from reliable sources or the show itself.
 * Regarding "official cast lists," I guess what I am trying to say is that we only use official confirmations. Maguire and Garfield were seen in merchandise and crew gifts for No Way Home, but we didn't list them until the film comes out? Does that make sense? Maybe there's been talks with an actor for Namor and underwater scenes filmed for Black Panther II, but we don't list him or Atlantis in the cast list? We didn't list Tom Cruise in Doctor Strange 2. The list goes on. TNstingray (talk) 22:08, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The casting of D'Onofrio and Cox in this series is confirmed in the CBR source as it explicitly cites the costume designer's resume to confirm this, so as such, we can include them in the cast listing. If it is the fact that they are reprising their roles that is in question, that is not directly supported by the resume, but the CBR source states due to their castings confirmed via the resume, this series should be the next appearance of their MCU characters together. CBR is independently confirming this by connecting the dots themselves for their report, which is allowed for us to go off of if they confirm it. CBR is a reliable website and verifies their reports, so they are reputable to cite for such information. Trailblazer101 (talk) 00:19, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Exactly. CBR is saying they're reprising their roles, not us. We're citing them. If CBR, a reliable source, considers that the costume designer's resume —another reliable source because it's related to the production and to their work directly— listing Cox and D'Onofrio is enough to confirm their appearance, then we can use it. As far as I know, this hasn't been removed from the resume, so it wasn't a mistake or a slip-up. —El Millo (talk) 00:55, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @Trailblazer101 @Facu-el Millo You said it yourselves that CBR were the ones that connected the dots and made the assumption that D'Onofrio and Cox's involvement meant that they were reprising their roles and somehow that equals a starring role and top billing over what Marvel has officially stated for the series. They could literally be cameo appearances, or they could even be playing different characters. Other actors have played multiple roles within the MCU: Paul Bettany, Gemma Chan, Mahershala Ali, etc. I'm not opposed to keeping the information in the article, but you all are still wrongly jumping to conclusions. There's no use in me pursuing an edit war though. I thought my edit provided a great compromise to reflect the actual facts of the situation. Even though I know the resume means that we will see these iconic characters again, we have to go about this properly and follow the guidelines of Wikipedia as discussed previously. The Status Quo for literally every single movie, project, etc. in the existence of cinema reflected on Wikipedia, the official cast are what is listed prior to trailers and the actual release. Why we are deviating from that for one project, I do not know. Respectably, I won't keep trying to undo your edits on this page, but hopefully others will read this conversation and form their own opinions rather than being stuck in their ways. TNstingray (talk) 14:17, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I completely agree. Echo should not be included for either of them CreecregofLife (talk) 14:28, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, CBR put the pieces together and said they are reprising their roles, so we can say as such, based on their independant confirmation. Generally, whenever actors' roles are confirmed for these MCU projects, they go with the cast listing, just like they do with the films. We do this for Secret Invasion right now, with Cheadle and Freeman, who are confirmed to be in that series but exact starring has not been stated, but sources state they are reprisals and since we know the roles and the sources say so, we include them in the cast list of known roles, with actors cast in unknown roles listed in prose. For Echo, we are not ignoring Marvel's official listing. As explain in an editor's note on the article, we have the cast list from Marvel, and then D'Onofrio and Cox listed. Do we know D'Onofrio and Cox are for sure starring, not at this moment, but it would be clunky to leave them in prose with their character descriptions there, especially since the confirmed starring actors with unknown roles are listed in prose. To imply that they may be playing other characters is original research and doesn't hold much, if any, weight here. We are not deviating from what other MCU articles have done in the past, as cases like NWH's and DS2's castings constituted many rumors but some actors were confirmed by sources (not from Marvel), even when their roles were only said to be expected by the same sources. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:25, 19 May 2022 (UTC)


 * @Trailblazer101 For the record, I also fully expect to see Kingpin and Daredevil in this show. My point in saying they could play other characters is that the resume CBR is discussing merely lists the actors' names, meaning there is an inherent jump in logic by both parties, even if it is correct. Regarding your Secret Invasion comparison, the guidelines for the MCU WikiProject address the process for cast lists:
 * As casting announcements begin, actors indicated to be (or possibly be) in starring roles are added to the cast section and infobox as the news is released. The order should generally be based on when actors are revealed, while a past billing block may be used as a temporary guide. Any additional news regarding supporting roles or actors in unspecified roles are added to a paragraph below the bulleted list, as well as excluded from the infobox.
 *  Once any official billings or press releases by Marvel Studios are released, characters are reordered per that billing.  Due note that this order should come from Marvel directly, as many news outlets, in reporting any news for the film, will create an arbitrary ordering at the bottom of, or within, their article.
 * Repeat steps 1 and 2 as needed as additional castings are revealed after a most recent full cast press release/billing, and then reorder when a new press release/billing is released
 * The last, and final reordering, should be done based on the billing on the release poster.
 * (MCUFILMCAST)
 * Before your respond "that is just for the films," MCUTVCAST states:
 * Marvel Television series generally follow the guidance as defined by WP:TVCAST for cast definition and order. For both Marvel Television and Marvel Studios series, "recurring" characters are usually defined as either 3 or 4 appearances.
 *  Marvel Studios are approaching their Disney+ series as if they are feature films  (see List of Marvel Cinematic Universe television series § Series approach and this source) in several ways, including how they credit actors for each episode.
 * In summary, the D'Onofrio and Cox leaks fell under #1 on the list above as actors indicated to be (or possible be) in starring roles. Now, we are at the point where #2 takes precedent, meaning they should not be listed in the Wikipedia cast lists until further confirmation. The leaks from the costume designer can be discussed in prose in the cast and casting section. I recognize this is likely a temporary change, but a needed one for Wikipedia to maintain consistency and reliability across all pages. I will await your response before making said changes, as I still do not want to engage in an edit war, and I appreciate this constructive discussion. TNstingray (talk) 18:34, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

"Echo" has wrapped filming, according to Alqua Cox
According to Alaqua Cox on her Instagram page, filming on Marvel Studios' Echo has wrapped filming: https://www.instagram.com/stories/alaquacox/2913688059918323266/. Is there any chance we can add this to the series' Wiki page? MarvelDisney20 (talk) 04:55, 27 August 2022 (UTC)


 * ✅ Added with a reputable source publication. Trailblazer101 (talk) 05:03, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Rardin as head writer
Variety is now saying in their D23 piece that Rardin and Dayre are co-head writers. I can't find any other site mentioning this (besides KFTV) but I wanted to let you know about it since you had added that from the KFTV article. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:52, 11 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the message and ping! I will say that this is a nice reassurance, although Variety has included stuff before that didn't pan out (ie Little for I Am Groot). I would say, that given they note Rardin and Dayre took over as head writer from the Cohens that it would be enough to include, though I think we may want to get thoughts from others on this, especially since Marvel's D23 articles don't mention any crew loglines. Trailblazer101 (talk) 04:42, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've been trying to check the Disney press sites to see if anything new came up. And I agree, if any other site mentions this (without linking back to Variety) I would put more stock in this being an actual change. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 14:36, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Rardin is listed as a co-executive producer which would suggest that she isn't a full head writer, and as far as I can tell Dayre hasn't mentioned her when talking about the series on social media which seems strange if they are working together. - adamstom97 (talk) 20:33, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I will note that the initial credits do eventually change, as we saw with Sana and Ms. Marvel. She was listed originally as a co-executive producer in Marvel's material and obviously ended up being a full EP. But yeah, the lack of mentions on social media is a bit telling. This all seems a bit curious, especially when we consider the Cohens were supposed to head this way back when. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:01, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

About 20th Television
Should we not mention that 20th Television's involvement on this series kinda seems like the first 20th Century-produced Marvel project since The New Mutants?

XSMan2016 (talk) 00:03, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's incorrect. I raised the issue on the MCU TV series talk page since the false claim affects other shows well as. It was kept because Production Weekly listed it but based on my experience they get a lot of things wrong especially things that haven't been independently confirmed or officially announced. They also used to claim Marvel Studios and Kevin Feige are involved in Kraven the Hunter and the other upcoming Sony Marvel movies. Once Echo comes out we'll settle this debate once and for all and remove these questionable 20th Television involvement from the MCU shows. Production studios are also usually included in the trailers. So, if the Echo trailer doesn't show 20th TV, that will also be a confirmation. — Starforce13  00:29, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * There is no evidence to disprove the accuracy of the information of 20th Television's involvement from the Production Weekly listing aside from prior unrelated listings being allegedly incorrect. The Sony stuff is a separate complicated situation. As per that talk discussion you brought up, there is support to use this information, especially based on other past discussions and edits on it. If you do strongly believe there is an issue, please feel free to ping relevant editors to further engage in conversation at the TV series talk page. I'd be more than happy to discuss it further. Trailblazer101 (talk) 04:17, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Look, guys. It's true that Production Weekly gets things wrong sometimes, but so do other reliable sources, and they've also been right in many cases. WP:VNT. If something is highly questionable, e.g. Marvel Studios' alleged involvement with Madame Web, then we can remove it. If we find out PW was wrong on something, we can remove it. If a more reliable source like a trade magazine disputes PW reporting, then we can remove it. Until one of those three things happens, there is no reason to remove 20th Television from this article.
 * Also, I don't think that's what XSMan2016 was asking in their initial post, they seem to be asking whether we should mention the fact that this is 20th Century Studios' first Marvel production since The New Mutants. First off, that's inaccurate, because 20th Television is a separate entity from 20th Century Studios. Secondly, that sounds trivial and probably doesn't warrant a mention. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:25, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I concur with InfiniteNexus here. Also, yes, 20th Television and 20th Century Studios are separate and any correlation to the 20th Century Marvel productions is entirely speculative or trivial and not noteworthy. Trailblazer101 (talk) 04:28, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The debate will be settled once and for all once Echo comes out and doesn't credit 20th Television... (or if PW finally decides to correct themselves). So, I'm willing to wait and let us spread this false information until then because that's the only way I can prove it's unreliable. — Starforce13  17:54, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I didn't need a whole lecture, just a "yes" or "no" would have been fine.
 * XSMan2016 (talk) 21:48, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Delay
Head writer Marion Dayre has stated on a podcast that this series would "probably" release about a year from now, around December 2023. I am not sure we can state that month as definitive given she seems unsure as to an official date, and given it is still quite early for one to be announced (even with the delay) as the other 2023 series have yet to receive official dates, as well. I do think we should label the release as "late 2023" until we have more information/clarification on this matter. Trailblazer101 (talk) 01:19, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Agreed. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:52, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Add Daredevil to related shows?
I’m thinking of slotting it in because of the apparent involvement of Cox and D’Onofrio.Aresef (talk) 03:55, 18 May 2022 (UTC)


 * With these MCU shows that always have crossover characters we should avoid including a list of them in the infobox, that isn't really what the parameter is for. We include a link to all the other MCU shows instead. The reason Hawkeye is also included for this show is because Echo is a direct spin-off from Hawkeye. - adamstom97 (talk) 04:43, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Thanks for responding. Aresef (talk) 13:48, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You mean any shows which is a spinoff of a previous show will be included in the relations part? Like Echo is spinoff of Hawkeye so it is related to Hawkeye but DD: BA is not a spinoff of Hawkeye so it is not included? JEDIMASTER2008 (talk) 07:17, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

First Marvel Studios series to release all of its episodes at once?
How do you define this line? I Am Groot technically released all episodes at once. (Define the words you used in explanations) JEDIMASTER2008 (talk) 11:51, 24 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I Am Groot is a series of short films which were not released under a singular "I Am Groot" television series but with each short as their own entry on Disney+, whereas Echo is a full-fledged television series. Trailblazer101 (talk) 13:41, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, now they are a sibgukar entry. Dies that affect this or...? BestDaysofMusic (talk) 15:07, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I Am Groot is still a series of shorts. How they are now collected on Disney+ does not change that fact. This is still the first Marvel Studios television series with this release strategy. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:20, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Delay II
disney+ japan released an updated release schedule for 2023 and it does not include Echo. any thoughts?223.233.27.215 (talk) 13:58, 30 December 2022 (UTC)


 * D23 reaffirmed Echo is releasing in 2023. We do not go by Disney's international sites as they have been wrong in the past. Rumors of delays have been swirling but nothing has been officially confirmed. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:34, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Just dropping this here to note that Echo was not include in Disney's Q2 earnings report of TV titles releasing later this year. I think this could be worth including if the series is confirmed to have been delayed. Trailblazer101 (talk) 04:05, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to play devil's advocate, not sure how accurate we should read into that seeing as Loki season 2 has a release that was announced well before August 9 (the day of the report) and it is listed under the "release dates not announced" section. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:28, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * As expected, this was debunked given the report was labeled "not exhaustive". - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:45, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

20th Television is no longer involved it seems...
I just read the production details and it seems Marvel is the sole production company. Let's wait and see if they'll still be involved with the Agatha, Daredevil, and Ironheart series though. Mattgelo (talk) 14:03, 18 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Another talk discussion on this is not needed at this time. We already hid the info in this article. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:42, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Episode titles
My apologies for adding the episode titles without a source, which is Hulu. TVBuff90 (talk) 02:53, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Individual articles
As we get closer to the series release, we should consider that it is possible each episode won't meet notability guidelines to warrant individual episodes because of the simultaneous drop. This was the case with all the Netflix series/seasons and none of those have individual episode articles. We can start draft obviously, and it's a different media landscape than when the Netflix shows released, but it's likely it will be a higher bar to clear notability for individual articles given we might not get enough episode specific production info or reviews to justify them. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:04, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Bumping this so the talk page appears on anyone's watchlist. No drafts have been created yet, but there are small bits in the article currently that can copy over to individual articles and there are references above in the Ref ideas template about the first episode Daredevil fight. But once again, notability will have a higher bar this time around to clear given the binge drop and how the media covers the series. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:59, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I missed your first message, but I was hesitant to do any draft prep due to the binge drop, so I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one thinking that. -- Zoo  Blazer  20:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It is quite possible the only episode that may meet the episode article requirements is only the first episode just like most TV series when they drop all episodes at the same time. — Young Forever (talk)   20:11, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think many episodes will pass notability given the simultaneous release, though the first episode might. As Marvel shifts their release strategy, not all episodes may be deserving of their own articles. Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:36, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Glad to see many regular watchers are on the same page. I may do some work in my personal sandboxes to see if after release any content comes out to warrant starting drafts, but I'm personally not in a rush to create the drafts (except maybe the first one as YoungForever noted). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:24, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Mh I don't think that we should have articles for the individual episodes of the serie. Imo, they are not notable itself (e.g., I cannot find any reliable review for "Chafa"). Redjedi23 (talk) 11:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Rotten Tomatoes only has episode-specific reviews from two websites but 80 reviews in total for the series, so definitely looks like we haven't ended up with enough episode-specific reviews to support episode articles unless we are able to pull out additional review details from season reviews. I was feeling that we should just stick with a series article for this one anyway, we should be able to get one really good article together for this series with all the episode production details combined. - adamstom97 (talk) 03:41, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Originally 8 or 6 episodes
The article quotes a Sneider article saying they shot 8 episodes originally and then did re-shoots and cut the series down to 5. Is any of that reliable? Other sources say they planned 6 episodes, but during the writing, were told to cut that down to 5. Bondegezou (talk) 20:13, 14 January 2024 (UTC)


 * What other sources? Sneider is a reliable WP:SME. Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:11, 7 February 2024 (UTC)