Talk:Ecological succession

Ecological diagram requested
Any ecology text should supply models for suitable diagrams (e.g. biomass accumulation graphs, nutrient retention, species richness etc)

Introduction streamlined
I remove the following bits from the introduction:

"Bacteria allows for the cycling of nutrients such as carbon, nitrogen and sulphu."

because it is completely out of context. Removing this part is more delicate, so I justify it below

The community begins with relatively few pioneering plants and animals and develops through increasing complexity until it becomes stable or self-perpetuating as a climax community. The "engine" of succession, the cause of ecosystem change, is the impact of established organisms upon their own environments. A consequence of living is the sometimes subtle and sometimes overt alteration of one's own environment.[1]

However, it makes several implicit assumptions on how succession proceeds. Firstly, not all organisms are plants and animals. Second, in secondary succession non-pioneering organisms may persist. To continue, I find innecessary the use of abstractions such as "engine" to explain the concept, which makes it obscure. Also, it is not true that every succession achieves a steady state (i.e. a climax), a simple example is a pulsed environemnt in which oscillations are continuosly observed. And finally, the last philosophical sentence makes again the explanation obscure. Since the next paragraph is a streamlined and neat explanation, I remove it. Conjugado (talk) 09:52, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2021 and 15 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): SpamwiseFamgee.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 20:03, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Moved addition
Part of this page was based on information once at an article called Vegetation succession''. The page history of this is now at Talk:Ecological succession/Page history.''

Moved the following idiosyncratic addition (it was also not integrated properly into article) from the main article. Addition is also full of external links to the author's website, rather than internal wikilinks to wikipedia articles which makes it look like a case of self-promotion. --Lexor 14:11, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Ecological succession as a derivative of the Second Law of Thermodynamics
addition by Folke Günther

Ecological succession is the spontaneous transformation of an ecosystem from a simple type (e.g. a grassland) into a complex type (ultimately: a tropical rainforest)

The process is driven by the Second Law of thermodynamics which is basic to any type of biological transformation.

Typical for a young (immature) ecosystem is:
 * parasitism
 * linear flows
 * low diversity
 * leakage
 * matter export
 * high excess production
 * low exergy consumption capacity

A typical example of this is a grassland or agricultural land

A mature ecosystem is characterized by
 * high diversity
 * mutualistic interactions (i.e. interactions that in some way or another is beneficial for both parts)
 * closed loops of nutrients
 * high exergy consumption capacity
 * all produced matter is consumed in the system

A typical example of this is a tropical rainforest, but other old forest ecosystems also approach this state.

A corollary of the above is that tropical rainforests do not provide oxygen, they breath it all up!

If an ecosystem is disturbed, it goes backwards in succession.

Looking at human-inhabited ecosystems then, the urban-agricultural system represent a young/immature system, while a self-sufficient village type represent a mature state.

For a closer discussion of this, see thermodynamics and ecosystems and related links.

Simple vs. Complex
If a tree falls in a forest, and no ecologist is there to see it, does it make a gap? Yes, and this gap will lead to an increase in diversity, in contrast to the generalisation made above in regards to the 2nd law. It has also made it more complex, if we use information theory to quantify complexity. Sucession will undo this disturbance, leading the ecosystem towards a less diverse and less complex state. Other examples point to different trajectories, but I am wary of the statement in the first paragraph that requires complexity to necessarily increase. Daniel Collins 19:44, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Seondary succession
I've just created a stub for Secondary succession, following a request at WP:AFC. I'm not a biologist though, so it would be good if someone knowledgeable about the subject could expand it. Also, it may be the case that this page covers the same subject better, so that a redirect may be more useful. Leithp (talk) 14:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)succession can be bad some times to

The wiki for stochastic
I read again the Stochastic page, (I put the wiki in for stachastic), and I think I see why the succession is not always predictable. I see the actions going according to these three Functions:
 * 1–the Environmental factors (including genetic factors).
 * 2–Time (occurs over finite, changing, periods), and can speed up, or slow.
 * 3–the Generations, (of all the involved species).

Michael,in the Sonoran Desert, Mmcannis 15:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Readability
Hey folks, I know this is an involved sophisticated topic in a specific field, but it's hard for the layperson to follow this article with all the terms of art used. If someone can make take a pass at slowing it down a bit for noobs, that would be loverly. jengod 22:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, also I think a few more citations would be helpful. I'm new here, not sure how much I can help, but there seem to be a lot of complex theories being discussed without reference before even the first citation. Missy Sunshine (talk) 20:27, 18 September 2010 (UTC) (Back again) This site has a good example of succession, in a freshwater environment. Might not be general enough, but it's a solid case study. Missy Sunshine (talk) 20:28, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Forest succession
Ecological succession is a very important topic for forest management. It is particularly connected to shade tolerance. One paragraph in the present article makes a short reference to it: "Many species are specialized to exploit disturbances. In forests of northeastern North America trees such as Betula papyrifera (White birch) and Prunus serotina (Black cherry) are particularly well-adapted to exploit large gaps in forest canopies, but are intolerant of shade and are eventually replaced by other (shade-tolerant) species in the absence of disturbances that create such gaps."

I think it would be positive to expand a little bit this content, and place it under a new heading with title Forest succession. If there are no objections, or better proposals I will proceed with this.--Auró (talk) 17:12, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Proper definition for "sere"
Can somebody who knows what they're talking about clarify on this page and on seral community whether "sere" is synonymous with "seral stage", or if it refers to the entire series of seral stages. I believe it's the latter, and thus the seral community and sere disambuigation  pages are wrong, but I'm not confident about this... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason75 (talk • contribs) 06:34, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Clements vs. Gleason
Since Clements’s theories appeared before Gleason's, I propose to change the title to "Gleason vs. Clements".--Auró (talk) 20:50, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

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Wiki Education assignment: Plant Ecology Winter 2023
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