Talk:Economic system/Archive 1

NPOV?
Still looks like we need to replace The division of economic systems section with something that references outside sources. Let's point to at least one outside scholar as the source of whatever categories we present as being "the most basic and general economic systems."

It seems that someone removed the "right wing" and "left wing" category strategy, so many of the comments and criticisms on this page no longer apply. -Chira 09:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * This division in right-wing, left-wing and centre is not right. It is expressing a distinctive point of view, while other point of views are possible as well. The American system is regarded as ultra right-wing according to half of Europe and a majority of the people in the 'underdeveloped' countries for instance. I think that these distinctions should be terminated. (See Neutral point of view)--Daanschr 12:27, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

List of systems
I think that at some point it should be moved to a separate article (List of economic systems is a redirect ATM). I expanded the current list, but I don't think that the division into left/right/other is the only possible (or the best), so if you want to add new lists of current systems, then please move it to the List... article.

At the moment we have a rather good definition of what economic system is (so we understand that welfare economics or feminist economics are NOT economic systems, right?). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:28, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Done. Moved the long list to another article. Please don't expand the list in this article, do it in the List of economic systems, ok? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 13:10, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Since the merge was annulled, I am moving content of Talk:List of economic systems here:

This article will try to: --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 13:09, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * list all possible economic systems by name
 * present all possible lists (cathegorisations) of economic systems

Rv/latest changes
Removed the others lists. If it is not right or left-wing, it is not to be mentioned in this list - please follow this simple rule. In case there is much confusion, we may have a list of some popular 'other' systems and explanations that they have both right and left wing variants (like coordinatorism and anarchy)

Rv/latest changes in the List by left-wing and right-wing:
 * Anarchism is not left wing, it has both right and left wing variants, therefore they should be listed in their sections
 * Anarchism, in its original form, was entirely left-wing. "Anarcho-capitalism" did not develop until the 1950's, and it is a branch of classical liberalism, not anarchism (despite the name).


 * brought back Market economy to the right wing system list, it is one of the most important items there.
 * Market economy is already mentioned in the first classification of systems. And, in any case, a market economy is not necessarily right-wing (think about market socialism, for example).

--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:05, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * removed Corporatism since it points to the same link as corporate capitalism ATM and the latter is better for the list
 * Ok, I agree with that one. I didn't notice the redirect when I first made my changes.

Problematic systems for the left and right wing list
In the right-left wing list ATM, but can be important later.


 * Feudalism - can it be argued as a right or left wing system at all?
 * Yes. The original "right-wing" were the supporters of feudalism in the revolutionary French Parliament. Compared to them, our present-day right-wing (the supporters of laissez-faire capitalism) were considered left. Therefore, feudalists would be Far Right by today's standards.


 * Parecon is a planned economy... but left or right wing?
 * Well... most supporters of Parecon say it is left-wing... and, for the record, it's not a planned economy (at least not in the usual sense).

--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:05, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Is Planned economy a left-wing system only? Coordinatorism is a type of a planned economy, and coordinatorism can exist in both righ and left wing variants, so it seems logical that planned economy is not only left-wing.
 * You are correct. Planned economy goes beyond left or right. And so does Market economy. They are very broad concepts.


 * And regarding "eco-capitalism", that's not an economic system in itself. It's not even a branch of capitalism. It is only a term describing the use of capitalist processes to achieve environmental goals (with more or less success).

To do
Section needing urgent expansion:

a) traditional systems - as in pre-capitalism ones - they are not well defined (as an economic system), and I am not sure if idelogies like mercantilism should be defined as systems? b) post-capitalism systems - various utopian and futurologist systems should be mentioned here c) red links: turbo-capitalism, corporate capitalism, and many others - whether they are synonims or little-known terms, we need to have at least a stub on them --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:28, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Capitalism, 'right wing' assertion
What is this crop about capitalism being "right wing"? RJII 20:54, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Choice of classification system
The division of all economies into market, mixed, planned and traditional seems rather flimsy. Where does this system of classification come from? Who has used this classification system is their work? Are there alternative classifications that might better help the reader understand?

I found an example NPOV article from Palomar College. I like how they conservatively limit their discussion of economic systems to concrete examples.

Perhaps we should find a more conservative, and less theoretical, classification system to outline economics. Categories such as "traditional" don't even begin to describe the diversity of economics in worldwide cultures throughout history, nor does it provide a useful framework to categorise economies.

I'd like to see "left" and "right" removed as well-- these words mean different things in different times and places. --Chira 08:39, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Definition? Redirected?
Where is the definition. I see that economy is redirected to this page....you must separate from expert and the layman view.. che 05:46, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Comparing economic systems
I do not believe that there is an article on Wikipedia which focuses on the task of comparing economic systems and the technical difficulties that arise from doing so. If anyone can find one, please point it out. Otherwise, we should seriously consider adding it as a topic in this article, or perhaps creating a separate related article.
 * I don't think we have an article on that topic. By all means, do register and help us create one.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 03:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Sincerity of socialist approach
Communists say that their aim is equitable distribution, but in the best-known, large-scale experiments such as USSR, that "stated aim" is so much at odds with the actual results as to lead critics to doubt the planners' sincerity. The well-known system of class privilege (see Nomenklatura) is clearly designed to strtify society into haves and have nots. --Uncle Ed 11:32, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Stalin dealt with the nomenklatura during the Great Purge, by trying to exterminate all of them. Stalin really hated clientalism. After the Second World War, the Nomenklatura had won and couldn't be overcome anymore by the real communists. So, you are not right.--Daanschr 12:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Œconomic System
Shouldn't this be spelt with a ligature?Cameron Nedland 22:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Technically yes, and I would argue that as well, but that would only confuse most people who don't know anything about economic systems, and most words are not spelled that way as well. If I had it my way, "Wikipedia" would have a ligature along with many, many other things. But alas, its the natural evolution of language whether you like it or not, and our goal here is to provide people with good reference material, not to confuse them. I'll add it as an alternate spelling in the introduction, though I feel like it'll be contested. — Kortaggio   Proclamations   Declarations  03:44, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

National Economy Model see: Haydar Baş???
I don't see anything new in his work. If no one objects, I will remove this part from the economic systems, and the link to H. Bas, since I can't allow non-English content on English pages. xeryus 16:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No objections? Gonna edit then that part. xeryus 23:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Bibliography: disputed deletion of reference
Related references in the article Bibliography were recently deleted as indicated here with the Edit summary: "Tricky link to spam - removed." The only non-deleted reference was:
 * Robert L. Heilbroner and Peter J. Boettke (2007). "Economic Systems". The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, v. 27.

The deletion was of 3 different sources for a virtually identical 1-paragraph entry. The 3 sources were: (2) makes (1) & (3) redundant. Conceivably the 3 references where one would be sufficient might give the false impression of trying to smuggle something untoward in with innocent references. Perhaps that is what the earlier Edit was getting at. I do agree with the earlier Edit on the need to guard against spam as provided in the Wiki guideline against spamming. But the EB link of (2) does not violate WP:SPAM guidelines. (If anyone disagrees, a precise citation of the appropriate section in WP:SPAM would be appreiated.) Accordingly I have restored (2) to References. It is a brief but excellent scholarly reference that that could be helpful to interested readers. --Thomasmeeks 03:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) "economic system," The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, v. 4 (in the so-called Micropaedia of shorter EB articles)
 * 2)  "economic system," Encyclopaedia Britannica online Concise Encyclopedia link
 * 3) "economic system," Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Encyclopedia (2000). p. 207.


 * If I click on the link to Britannica online I first get a commercial and a tricky pop up screen, with I can hardly remove. This is what I mean by a tricky link.... if you can hardly remove the pop up's. I expect external links not toplay those tricks with me. Maybe you don't care. Well I do. - Mdd 11:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for clarifying. I do care, and regularly avoid some linka  for the reasonn you indicated. If I had encountered the same thing, I probably would have had a different reaction.  My encounter was problem-free, no pop ups, not even no pop-up blocks indicated, and no back-up difficulties.  Whether the difference is a function of geography or operating systems is not obvious.  --Thomasmeeks 13:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I just checked it again... and I got this link, offering me a zeven days free tour in the Encyclopedia (with out pop-up this time). Only if I return to the article and click on the article some more then, the ten lines of the Britannica appear. Now if the link gives such a trouble I prefer to leave it.
 * If you think the Britannica article has a very valuable content, an other way is to put that content in this article, with a reference, without a hyperlink. I wonder prefer this, very much. - Mdd 14:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Regrettable. I still come up clean for article wiki link http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9363397 . I notice, though material in lower right side indicates blocking, presumably of pop-ups, which I take it is my faithful OS updates at work. I can list "economic system," Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Encyclopedia (2000). p. 207. I don't have immediate access to @007 EB, or I'd list it instead. It is hard to know how prevalent your problem is, but presumably those lacking pop-up blockers stay away from a lot of sites anyhow.  The rest may appreciate at least having opportunity to use convenient link.  I'll try to do as you said.  It would certainly be reasonable to remove that caused problem for some had nothing to offer beyond what was in the content of the current lead.  It is a good goal to work toward.  --Thomasmeeks 22:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm now on an other computer which runs VISTA and that link of your is a disaster!!!!!! It gave me about twenty popup's on my screen... in Holland. I don't know what the problem is, but you can do this. This is absolutely scary SPAM. - Mdd 23:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

New set of further reading and external links
I added a new set of further reading and external links, and I wrote the britannica link into the article. I hope your are satisfied. Your are lucky that that commercial Britannica link doesn't mess with your computer. But now we can leave this behind, and focuss on improving this article further. Good luck. - Mdd 13:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Serious addition. You made it look easy, but it sure didn't look that way to me.  How much better to be able to remove the references template, b/c it no longer applies than to submerge it (presumably b/c it is an unplesasnt reminder of a deficiency).  A happy ending. The main EB article is a gem too, but I have my hands full elsewhere for now. Still, it is a convenient ref for working into the article (with appropriate citations) at some point.  At this stage of the article, some idiosyncracy can be charming and useful, but there may come a point where informative descriptive content becomes more appropriate.  BW. P.S. I wonldn't touch current Edit, but sect. 1, 2nd para, 2nd line: arra[n]gement. --Thomasmeeks 18:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

You are right. It looks easy but it isn't. I am working in the WikiProject Systems to improve all kinds of systems related articles, and these basic articles are sometimes the hardest. It's often difficult to find good qoutes, but I have had some more exercise lately. I am not quite sure, what you are wanting to tell me about the "reference template"? - Mdd 18:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Where is national economy model? Prof Dr Haydar Baş? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.249.51.193 (talk) 21:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There is an article called Model (economics) -- Mdd (talk) 21:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I have added an illustration of a (Macro-)economic model at the start of the topic. It is necessary that such a model be shown in order to properly explain that the system has structure and to show of what it consists. I have also improved some of the descriptive material here. More work on this whole topic is needed because many of the explanations and their overall logic of presentation are unsatisfactory and vague. Macrocompassion (talk) 15:20, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Using sources
In the overview of this article I used the following text from the New Encyclopædia Britannica (2007) on economic systems.
 * Set of principles and techniques by which a society decides and organizes the ownership and allocation of economic resources.


 * At one extreme, usually called a free-enterprise system, all resources are privately owned. This system, following Adam Smith, is based on the belief that the common good is maximized when all members of society are allowed to pursue their rational self-interest. At the other extreme, usually called a pure-communist system, all resources are publicly owned. This system, following Karl Marx and Vladimir Ilich Lenin, is based on the belief that public ownership of the means of production and government control of every aspect of the economy are necessary to minimize inequalities of wealth and achieve other agreed-upon social objectives.

I just made it a little shorter and came up with:
 * Economic system is a set of principles and techniques by which a society decides and organizes the ownership and allocation of economic resources. At one extreme, following Adam Smith, usually called a free-enterprise system, where all resources are privately owned. At the other extreme, following Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin usually called a pure-communist system, where all resources are publicly owned. 

Now the quote is rewritten by Thomasmeeks to:
 * Economic system is a set of methods and rules by which a society decides and organizes the ownership and allocation of economic resources. At one extreme, production is carried in a private-enterprise system such that all resources are privately owned. It was described by Adam Smith as frequently promoting a social interest, although a only a private interest was intended. At the other extreme, following Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin is what is commonly called a pure-communist system, such that all resources are publicly owned with an intent of minimizing inequalities of wealth among other social objectives. 

The thing I want to discuss here, is the way of using sources. In the Netherlands it is kind of a rule that if you use a source, you use it in the most original form. So if the Brittanica states that: You are not going to rewritte this quote to: You don't start putting such a quote in you own words. There is the whole further article to comment and to give other interpretations. Now maybe in the US or UK this is not common? I would like to know.- Mdd 20:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Economic system is a set of principles and techniques
 * Economic system is a set of methods and rules


 * Well, as indicated in my Edit summary, the above quotation in the WP article quoted the first line from EB & didn't use quotation marks. I believe that quotation marks would have been in order to indicate a direct quotation.  Paraphrase is another way (the one I used), as suggested by Copyrights, last para. 2nd sent., which summarizes a suggestion in works like Kate L. Turabian's A Manual for Writers of Term Papers, Theses, and Dissertations (not on my bookshelf, so I can't give a page #).  I had access to the EB text cited.  It would have been remiss of me not to made the easy change to remedy what seemed to me a (happily small) problem (referred to in my first sentence).  On the practice referred to above, paraphrase does avoid the problem of possble copyright infringement.  But fair-use quotation is also certainly acceptable, where I believe that indication of a direct quotation is the less questionable (& more informative) practice. --Thomasmeeks 02:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

A third opinion
The longer I look, the more I doubt either of us did a good job!? Maybe we could ask the WikiProject Economics or WikiProject Sociology for a third opinion? - Mdd 23:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Important note
I think that the very first sentence should be changed slightly. Instead of saying that consumer goods are the only goods produced, it is better to make things more thorough by stating that "wealth" is produced. An economic system is a system devoted to the production, distribution and sale of WEALTH.

The reason why this is important is because consumer goods are not the only goods produced in an eocnomic system. CAPITAL goods are produced no less than consumer goods. To ignore capital goods is to ignor the very source that advances an economic system.

I don't want to hear any BS about double counting, because it is NOT double counting. For it is possible for an economy to produce ONLY consumer goods (with people's bare hands), and still have a large GDP to the extent that the system has a currency by which to measure it. It is also possible for this country to have the SAME GDP if it produced more capital goods, and hence more consumer goods, if and only if the money supply remained the same. For whatever is produced, be it consumer goods or capital goods, the totality of goods produced and sold will reflect the quantity of money that exists in that economy.

Hence, by only focusing on consumer goods, we are ignoring what makes an economy "good" and what makes it "bad". Would you call a primitive society that produced everything by people's bare hands, yet sold these goods for money and thus have a positive GDP, would you call this primitive society an "economic system"? A "good" economy is one that produces lots of capital goods. If it produces lots of capital goods, then the amount of consumer goods will be all the higher as well. More capital goods is the foundation for rising prosperity and economic progress in an economic system.

As such, if we are going to define an economic system, we MUST include EVERYTHING that system produces. Economic systems produce capital goods fully as much as it produces consumer goods.

The easiesy way of seeing this truth is by imagining a corner of a city that is heavily industrialized, i.e. factories, plants, mines, etc. This part of the town can be labelled as a "micro" economic system, if you will. It also produces more capital goods than consumer goods. The key here is that would you call this part of the town NOT part of the economic system? It clearly is a part, but it simply produces more capital goods than consumer goods. The similarity of this part of the town with the rest of the country is that BOTH parts of the country produce WEALTH.

This is why WEALTH must be used instead of consumer goods. The fact that consumer goods are the "final" product is irrelevent, because an economic system DEPENDS on capital goods being produced. If no capital goods were produced, economic progress would be almost non-existent, and we would not call this system an "economic" system, for it is not PRODUCING using the division of labor. An economic system is a division of labour society, and capital goods are part of this division of labour, for some companies only manufacture capital goods.

In summary, by ignoring capital goods in this definition, we are ignoring a fundamental aspect of any economy, in fact it is probably the most important aspect! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Private Freedom (talk • contribs) 20:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

exchange / distribution
OK, this might be an over-technical point, or maybe not... I think that "distribution" covers "exchange", and that in principle an economic system can exist without "exchange" as it's commonly conceived. So I'd stick to just "distribution".Cretog8 (talk) 16:42, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Laissez-faire
for hands-off there should be a reference to Laissez-faire and probably a link to SubaruSVX (talk) 15:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

what is a "faflononomy"?
The third sentence of the article says: "In a given faflononomy, it is the systemic means by which problems of economics are addressed, ..." Will somebody please define "faflononomy" and include the definition (either immediately or by reference) in the article? Or find a substitute for that word? Marty39 (talk) 15:16, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I am under the impression that this is a non-exsting, made-up word. There is exactly one reference to it on Google - and that links to this article. Alas, I am unable to tease information out the system which change / who added this text. 77.25.66.48 (talk) 10:17, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, found the culprit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Economic_system&diff=prev&oldid=263673287 This is obviously vandalism, fixing. 77.25.66.48 (talk) 10:23, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Missing word (name of a system) in Overview?
There seems to be a word missing in the first paragraph of the 'Overview' section, as noted below. I suspect the word is "communism" but perhaps one of the original editors will confirm and correct the article?

"At the other extreme, following Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin is what is commonly called [word missing here], such that all resources are publicly owned with intent of minimizing inequalities of wealth among other social objectives.[3]" Gnelson2 (talk) 19:53, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I was just coming to comment on that. In the section "Using sources" of this talk page the quote is complete, and it says "usually called a pure-communist system", so I'm writing that back into the main page. I don't know what how that got edited out, that's weird. PoisonedQuill (talk) 20:17, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

"Hands on/Hands off" OR and Capitalist bias
Is this dichotomy original to this article? Laissez faire capitalism is not "hands off", much less the currently ubiquitous state capitalism. "Let do" effectively means, let those who control society and production continue to do so. It is possible to imagine a material organization of production that would satisfy that term, with for example, an objective function such as maximizing the total productivity of labor, fulfillment of societal or personal needs, etc., but Capitalism certainly does not. Capitalism has the further accumulation and concentration of Capital as its sole objective. This is systemic/functional as opposed to intentional bias though I think. Capitalist thinking is so ingrained that conceptual absurdities like this come very naturally. It is particularly oblivious to real use value, sustainability of various sectors of production, non-monetizable values, externalities, etc., etc. So in this case the system which is specifically, thetically, and organically structured, tightly controlled by a set of grasping hands, so that all production flows to a class of accumulators, so that little or nothing is even conceivable outside this modality of production, the one which is most "handed", is precisely the one in which those hands become first "invisible" then non-present! 72.228.177.92 (talk) 07:38, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The actual dichotomy currently extant is one between forms of state capitalism manifested as various forms of oligarchial collectivism in which production is planned either bottom up but with the various winners of capitalist competition controlling their various owned sectors indepedently and no overall control except via the inherent class structure as in the West or top down with the same privatized sectors directed from the Commanding Heights by the state power as in China. "Hand On/Hands Off" would be an intellectual embarrassment if there weren't various excuses for it. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 13:59, 23 December 2010 (UTC)


 * As the article was tagged by others at the top for the issue above, I removed the material completely. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 16:08, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Modify the Main Title?
What is the difference between an "economic system" and an "economics system"? The former has been used throughout this article and it is confusing. The general subject being economics, it would be better if the latter expression be used. In my opinion such a system MUST have an associated model (or models). For that reason I have added one to the text which is used here to briefly mention/explain the "structure" of the system.

As I have noted above, this whole article needs to be better arranged from the point of logic. Certain sub-sections should be either given less importance or omitted (including the silly alternative reference to the system in Enclopedia Britannica!), whilst other significant aspects could be usefully added.

The following poem is not excatly what is needed but it does rather bring one into the modern expression of the use of the word "system". The author was Kenneth Boulding, (1910 - 1993).

A system is a big black box Of which we can't unlock the locks And all we can find out about Is what goes in and what comes out.

Perceiving input-output pairs, Related by parameters, Permits us, sometimes, to relate An input, output, and a state.

If this relation's good and stable Then to predict we may be able, But if this fails us heaven forbid! We'll be compelled to force the lid! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Macrocompassion (talk • contribs) 15:39, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

picture
How to make markets growing Wallymotor (talk) 22:58, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Anthropological point of view
This entire page should be redone from a more Anthropological point of view, it seems to focus too much on the current Capitalist/Communist divide of the present day. Traditional systems i.e. those of the Inuit, the Potlatch of the NA in the Northwest of North America and the Palace economics of the Ancient world. There needs to be a shift away from exploring this through the lens of sociology, and philosophy. 75.120.54.84 (talk)
 * Please expand article if you have referenced information. Note this article is particularly about economic systems. It sounds like you may have something to contribute to Ancient economic thought too. Jonpatterns (talk) 12:47, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Recent further reading addition
Recently the following was adding in Further reading-


 * economy of india.by satish choudhary 2015.p.p.189

It has since been removed, I wonder if it was referring to History of Medieval India? Jonpatterns (talk) 13:51, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

List of economic systems - revisited
The section Economic_system says it duplicates another article, which one? Options:


 * 1) List of economic systems - redirects to this article. Perhaps it could be split of to a separate simple list page.
 * 2) Outline of economics - it could be merged into the outline article.
 * 3) Economic system - most items on the list are already addressed in the articles itself. The duplicates could be removed and the remainders put in a section called 'Other economics systems'.
 * 4) List section is okay - remove duplicate tag
 * 5) Something else

Jonpatterns (talk) 15:23, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Moldova is currently a Marxist-Leninist Communist state?!


In the section "Type", why does this image show Moldova as a current Marxist-Leninist Communist state? It should be orange as a former one. Can someone fix this? Loraof (talk) 15:41, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Economic system
Economic system is a means in which a country decided to loose in production and distribution in goods and services however we have (3) three types. 1) capitalist (frees).                                                                                                                                                        2) socialist economic system (central system). 3) mixed economic system            Emmyuth (talk) 22:54, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

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