Talk:Economy of France/Archive 1

€12, not 12 €
This article uses French typographic/syntax conventions. The English way of writing a figure: "€12". Not "12 euros", not "12 €". SergioGeorgini (talk) 20:00, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Contradiction in this article
The article claims France is the 5th largest economy while the inset box claims it is the 7th largest. On further inspection this contradiction is due to the method of measurement, nominal versus PPP. It would be better to make this distinction explicit to avoid confusion. - A.Rod (21:55, 8 October 2005(UTC))
 * I agree; the table should be changed to 7th largest economy.

France is now the fifthe biggest economy of the world, ahead of the uk. See http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/abe2ffc4-c08b-11dc-b0b7-0000779fd2ac.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.181.119.147 (talk) 14:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Given the 2009 Euro exchange rate against Sterling and the Dollar, the 2006/2007 figures are grossly misleading. I am removing them. Alcon the Molossian

whats a 'hearthes'
3,500 wealthiest hearthes have seen their real revenue increase by 42,6% [4], while 90% of the total hearthes only saw an increase of 4,6%

is this supposed to mean family? this is not an english word, ive checked the dictionary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.143.155.251 (talk) 18:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

'Hearth' means home in English (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hearth). In this case it's probably a literal translation of the French word 'foyer'. The proper translation in this context would be 'household'. 66.130.156.84 (talk) 03:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Weapon industry and mideast
"In addition, external demand plays a big part in the growth of this sector: for example, France exports great quantities of weaponry to the Middle East."

Can we have statistics on this? The only recent strong clients in mideast for France are the United Arabs Emirates (Leclerc and Mirage 2000) and Saudi (Frigates) while France's important deals were too in South America, Europe and Asia lately (Scorpene subs to Chile, India and Malaysia; Frigates to Singapore and Taiwan, Eurocopter Tigers to Australia, electronics and Mirage 2000 to Greece). Matthieu (talk) 11:31, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

oil?
When did France quit producing oil? France, insofar as the textbook provided to the French students show, never really produced oil. We did produce coal, when it was a popular resource, but nowadays most of the non-oil energy in France is produced by means of atomic powerplants. I apologize, for my grasp of the Internet is insufficient for me to provide links to data con am the late in your world firming this; however, I am sure that there is some out there. I am merely not competent enough to prove this to you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.255.175.4 (talk) 23:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

FRANCE HAS OVERANKED THE UK AS WORLD'S 5TH ECONOMY !!!
According to the FINANCIAL TIME, the size of the British economy has slipped below that of France for the first time since 1999 thanks to the slide in the value of the pound.

The US, Japan, Germany, China and France all had larger economies than the UK in the third quarter of 2007 – and in 2006.

The figures represented a “political economic cataclysm” for Britain, said Martin Weale, the director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, who noted that the UK government often boasted of Britain’s being the fourth largest economy, and then the fifth largest when China overtook the UK in 2005.

The UK’s demotion to sixth place will put pressure on the government’s reputation for economic competence, particularly as it is Britain’s ancient rival, France, that is moving ahead.

Mr Weale said that, although the change in rank had no immediate effect on British living standards and the UK still had slightly higher gross domestic product per head, the falling exchange rate would crimp income growth compared with overall growth in economic output.

In 2006, the GDP of France was €1,792bn (£1,353bn) compared with £1,304bn for the UK. With sterling worth €1.47 on average in 2006, this put the UK economy comfortably 6.7 per cent ahead of the French economy.

But with sterling’s more than 10 per cent fall against the euro in the past six months to €1.32 to the pound, the UK’s economy in 2008 is now 4 per cent smaller than France.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/abe2ffc4-c08b-11dc-b0b7-0000779fd2ac.html

'''THANKS TO WIKIPEDIA TO UPDATE ITS DATA !!!

Frederick CARLES-FONT (carlesfjf@yahoo.com)''' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.66.9.250 (talk) 20:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

France's GDP (current prices) : $2,252 (2006)  $2,560 (2007) UK's GDP (current prices) : $2,402 (2006) $2,772 (2007) France's GDP PPP : $1,956 (2006) $2,046 (2007) UK's GDP PPP: $2,018 (2006) $2,137 (2007) —Preceding :unsigned comment added by :193.178.155.99 (talk) 14:44, :15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * According to IMF, here are a comparison between France and UK : (you can obtain this result on IMF's web site : http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/01/weodata/index.aspx)


 * brits people are really dramaqueen.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.70.90.135 (talk) 18:29, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * That data is from 2007, for the 2010 and 2011 ones, France surpassed Britain in term of GDP


 * 🇫🇷 France:	2,555,439 🇬🇧 United Kingdom: 2,258,565


 * The reference is cited below:

Dirigisme
I noticed that dirigisme was attributed to left-wing governments. I thought that the RFR and UMP's predecessor whose name escapes me controlled the government until Mitterand came along. Can someone back me up?J1.grammar natz (talk) 01:44, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreed: the actual article on dirigisme has this to say, "Dirigisme flourished under the center-right governments of Charles de Gaulle and Georges Pompidou. In those times, the policy was viewed as a middle way between the American policy of little state involvement and the Soviet policy of total state control. In 1981, Socialist president François Mitterrand was elected, promising even more state enterprise in the economy; his government soon nationalised industries and banks. However, in 1983 the initial bad economic results forced the government to renounce dirigisme and start the era of rigueur ("rigour")" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charlietemps (talk • contribs) 13:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Scope of this article
I was wondering, how have the drop in tourism and the boycott of some French goods (wine etc.) affected France's economy during the war with Iraq? A lot? A little?Chessdude111 12:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Not at all, look at this http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4279.html. Actually It did not affected France's economy, France did take advantage of the Iraq's war.90.9.155.205 (talk) 15:34, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Chessdude, as you noted yourself, the boycott affected midly products such as food and drink, while as you can see on this article, the country economy is relying on aeronautics, chemistry and other high end products. The boycotters should have tryed to know France a little bit to be able to affect its economy effectively :) Atalante66 (talk) 09:13, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Is the content of this article specificly about metropolitan France, or the entirety of France? Thank you. &mdash; Instantnood 22:14, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * It should be global for all France. However, France's oversea possessions have low demographic weight and economic importance. (Most of them, as far as I know, are highly subsidized.) David.Monniaux 22:32, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nuclear weapon exports
Huh? "Exports great quantities of nuclear weapons?" Source please. -Will Beback 23:03, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 *  In addition, external demand plays a big part in the growth of this sector: for example, France exports great quantities of nuclear weapons and guns to the United States.


 * You can simply remove that, clearly some act of degradation on the page. Well, at least it was fun Atalante66 (talk) 09:15, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Just Curious Re Euro GDP figures
I am just interested as to why Frances GDP is represented in Euros when the international standard is the US Dollar. When one says GDP in terms of the common usage even in specialized economic circles it is taken to be that they are speaking of US dollars. China and Japan are great examples of countries reporting GDP in US Dollars. Im going to make a note to self to change it to US dollars, as this is what I can see to be the standard from the other articles on economy. That is unless someone gives me a justified reasoning behind keeping it in Euros. But it is like oil, you dont sell Oil in Euros, or Gold or anything else. Neither the IMF or the World Bank use anything but US dollars. It seems to be against all international convention. Personally I would say that this has been done by someone with a European nationalist sentament. But as someone who is in the field of economics and is thus a "expert" I find this bizzar. And no Im not American, but that doesnt matter this is about convention and being as accurate as possible. As far as I know the Government of Canada does not even publish its own GDP stats in Canadian dollars because the ammounts they give out match the USD ammounts. --Meanie 20:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC) I say put it in euro's, i will delete the figure in dollars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.130.243 (talk) 06:42, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * If I get time I will be re writing huge sections of this article to correct massive inaccuracies. For example the very citation used to support that French Unions are weak, says the exact opposite.  Someone has slanted this article to be all shine and glory on the French republic.  Totally deflecting that the immigrant population 10% or more has an unemployment rate in excess of 50%.  The entrenched social culture that prevents upward social mobility.  It would also be fair to denote that the 9.9% unemployement rate (CIA world factbook) is composed of the same individuals year after year because it is impossible to fire anyone.  Also to add that as someone in economics, if you eliminated these laws overnight unemployment would drop about 2% pts.  With a poverty rate that is less than the unemployment rate it means that government policies are encouraging unemployment.  My problem is this article shows ONLY the good, and not the Bad at the same time.  This makes France sound like a great place to live, when in reality unless you know someone or have money you cant even get a job at a corner store.  Not having the threat of being fired also hinders economic productivity.  So There is a lot that should be changed about this article to reflect reality.  It only has two sources.  I can bring in 10-15 reputable sources to support my position vs 1 for the status quo, which is in French in English Wiki.  (the language thing isnt a problem for myself but it is for anyone else trying to check it out.) --Meanie 20:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * And the GDP growth at the bottom is grossly exadurated. The real numbers are 2002 1.2%, 2003 0.2%, etc etc.  I dont have information on the last two years I have yet to find that this was just a simple search (the economist mag.  Its a third party non government source with a very high reputation amongst economists.) --Meanie 20:38, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Any of the peer-reviewed published studies on mobility show France to be one of the most mobile nations in the world - just behind the Nordics and far more mobile than the US/UK etc economies. I don't think we should just speculate that their economies are immobile on a gut feeling.  They are also the most productive major economy, as cited by Eurostat and the US' BLS foreign statistics.  I don't think we should take Meanie's advice and suggest France's economy harms these things when they are actually very productive and mobile.  In fact, I think the productivity and mobility statistics should be included.


 * There are clearly many different economic views on the values of the French economic system and we should not litter this article with any speculation from a single view. Indeed, many French support a rigid employment system even if it adds a couple percent to unemployment.  It also encourages companies to invest in captial and increase productivity, and French demographics show labor will be much tighter in the future.  Job security contributes to their higher education and provides a mechanism to encourage high-skill development and long-term planning.


 * I understand your point Meanie, obviously, most writters are probably french/french lovers. However, as long as what they say is documented and about economy, I think its ok. Your points on the contrary are clearly oriented, and I guess you will have hard time to find documentation for most of them as they are clearly point of view. Among the points you righly highlight, are the GDP growth figures, which are waayyy too old. However I understand why nobody changed them for something more uptodate, as on those"interresting times", figures are everchanging. I do believe that 0% growth for 2012 and 0.3% for 2013 are more close to reality than those figures, but once more, I could find plenty of other estimates. By the way, I am french, have spent a couple of years at london then sacramento, and find that yes, France is a good place to live ;) Atalante66 (talk) 09:23, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

average net salary is obviously false and doesn't match the source provided...
average net salary is obviously false and doesn't match the source provided... with the source you provide it should be 21944/12 = 1828.6 EUR and not 3081 EUR

Thanks to update the data, it is very misleading as the number is more than 50% overvalued... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.83.42.135 (talk) 11:23, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

The "Ministere du travail (DARES)", has just published the data for 2010, average salary was 2082 euros, so around 2700 dollars.No idea how this ranks however. I have no idea what to talk about!!!!!!!!!! Atalante66 (talk) 09:40, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Number of millionaires
The English page says France would have 2.6 USD millionaires which seems way too much. The French page says the total amount of millionaires is 280 000 which is definitely more realistic — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.114.162.166 (talk) 23:40, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

You are speaking on the one hand about millionaires in dollars and on the other end in millionaires in euro. There seems to be indeed 2.6 millions millionaires in USD in France, around 1/11th of the population, according to the quoted Credit Suisse recent study, according to the same study, France is the 3rd country in the world in number, and millionaires are 3 times more frequent than in USA (number of millionaires per inhabitant), and way ahead of other european countries. I understand this is shocking in a country tagged as "socialist" by some medias Atalante66 (talk) 09:30, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The difference between euro and dollar is not that big. If there is 2.6 million US$-millionaires, I expect there to be at least close 2 million euro millionaires.


 * And I have no idea where you got that 1/11 figure. That would mean ther are under 30 million people in France. In fact there are over 60 million people. Correct ratio is about 1/24, or maybe even 1/25 by now.


 * Also, France is socialist, if you look what parties are in charge there. Quite capitalist economy, though, still. 82.141.67.208 (talk) 11:32, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

But, after looking Millionaire article, it says there were 2.9 million US$-millionaires in Europe in 2009. So, it is more than likely that 90 % are not in France. 82.141.67.208 (talk) 11:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Removed John Atkinson is a Fairy
Obviously does not belong. this is not correct way more people visit france

"As France is the second most popular touristic country in the world, after Spain". It's not what I'm reading here: http://www.bts.gov/publications/us_international_travel_and_transportation_trends/overview.html. "Still, the United States, with 51 million foreign resident visits, surpassed Spain to become the second-most visited country worldwide. In comparison, France accounted for the most international overnight visits, with 76 million in 2000 (USDOC ITA 2001d)". If nobody bring evidence of Spain being the most visited country, I'm gonna correct this mistake.

According to the Spanish National Institute of Statistics (Instituto Nacional de Estadística, INE), Spain was visited in 2000 by 74.461.889 visitors, from which 47.897.915 tourists were tourist, who are defined as the people who spend at least a night in the country. http://www.ine.es


 * I think that they meant to say that France is the most visited country in Europe, after Spain.

Hello, the mistake made here is indeed that the original author has compared total visitors in Spain to tourists in France. There are around 75-85 million tourists each year in France, and 45-55 millions tourists each year in Spain. Previous references are correct, they are just badly quoted. Atalante66 (talk) 09:10, 26 October 2012 (UTC) fereqrewerebuiyumhfdjyjrtyj — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.122.30.104 (talk) 20:01, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

"In 2010, among the top 1% of global wealth holders, 4,045 are French"
The above sentence is found in the article. There is no source for it and the number seems very dubious. The top 1% global wealth holders recoups about 70 million persons, and only 4,045 (0.0058%) of them are French? Thus placing France far below the world average? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.89.37.43 (talk) 04:21, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Very poor article
For such an important article, this is really poor. The dire grammar and linguistic mistakes suggest it has been vandalized by French people, and the content is just nationalistic swagger. You learn nothing from it about the actual state of the French economy. Needs a complete overhaul. 86.23.117.97 (talk) 00:20, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. 2.97.115.87 (talk) 22:04, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

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Recent Forbes article
@ User:Ericmarq15. A recent Forbes article states that the Indian economy had surpassed that of Britain. However, the article only uses the exchange rate on the 16 December 2016 as the basis to calculate an entire years worth of GDP. Official GDP figures are not calculated this way (IMF, World Bank etc), they take monthly average exchange rates to calculate GDP. Therefore, I think it best to avoid using the Forbes article in articles such as these, as it uses an incorrect and unconventional way to calculate GDP. Antiochus the Great (talk) 10:53, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree, and the same applies to Economy of the United Kingdom. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 13:24, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

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Discrepancies in the introduction
France and India both are 7th largest Economy in the world come on. New Figures of IMF are up link is given down below.France is the 7th largest Economy UK is the 6th largest and India is the 5th largest and just to be clear I am talking about Nominal GDP figure I've already made editing requests in the talk page of all related article.https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2019/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=76&pr.y=17&sy=2019&ey=2020&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=924%2C132%2C134%2C534%2C158%2C112%2C111&s=NGDPD&grp=0&a= DataCrusade1999 (talk) 06:00, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Wrong GDP for 2022
Gdp for France at the beginning of 2022 was 2936,70 trillion USD It has been confirmed by the Ministry of Economics that the GDP at the end of 2022 grew by 2.6 % by a simple calculation, you can find out that the gdp of France at the beginning of 2023 is 3.013 trillion USD. You can find this exact number on online articles.

So how can it be 2778 trillion USD ? please do correct it, now the page is locked. Because the current information indicates that France is in recession over the whole year of 2022 when its GDP actually increased by 2.6% Backwardsnap (talk) 14:39, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

An article for reference: https://business-cool.com/dico-eco/pib-france-2023/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Backwardsnap (talk • contribs) 15:46, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2023
PLEASE CHANGE NOMINAL GDP FROM 2.77 TRILLION USD TO 3.013 TRILLION USD. THIS 2.77 TRILLION IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG FRANCE HAD A GDP GROWTH OF 2.6% OVER THE YEAR OF 2022 (CONFIRMED BY THE FRENCH MINISTRY OF ECONOMICS. AS A MATTER OF FACT, PREVIOUS GDP AT THE START OF 2022 WAS 2.9367 TRILLION USD THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR CORRECTING!

REF : https://business-cool.com/dico-eco/pib-france-2023/ https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marches/la-croissance-du-pib-passera-de-26-en-2022-a-03-en-2023-selon-la-banque-de-france-1455174#:~:text=La%20hausse%20du%20produit%20int%C3%A9rieur,France%20publi%C3%A9%20samedi%2017%20d%C3%A9cembre. Backwardsnap (talk) 15:55, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Semi-protection-unlocked.svg Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. RudolfRed (talk) 19:53, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Stop correcting with a wrong GDP !!!
France had a confirmed growth of 2.6% over the year 2022 last year’s gdp was worth 2.936 trillion I don’t know if you’re comfortable with simple maths, but with a straightforward calculation of adding +2.6% to it, will get you to 3.013 trillion. You can also find this number in various articles online

Please stop spreading wrong information, or I’ll request a protection of this page

thank you Backwardsnap (talk) 16:22, 13 March 2023 (UTC)


 * "Business-cool", which you linked above, is not a reliable source.
 * Further, the figure for 2021 was 2.96 according to the IMF, and World Bank. But that's in current $, meaning that it takes the exchange rate into account. You can't just apply a GDP growth number to get the GDP for the next year.
 * Fact is, the 2022 GDP hasn't been calculated yet, and is an estimate by the IMF (published in October 2022, before the year was even over). So we should keep using the 2021 numbers for now. Unless there is previous consensus to use forecasts, which I doubt. DFlhb (talk) 09:11, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your explanation. I wasn’t aware of this taking the new $ rate into account thing. I think it’s more reasonable indeed to take the 2021 data then. The 2.6% growth is confirmed though, so we might be able to have the 2022 gdp soon. However, this 2.77 T figure was complete non sense and was probably part of an anti-France ideology which is common on the Internet nowadays. Thank you for actualising the data and for protecting this article.
 * Regards, Backwardsnap (talk) 12:32, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * For the record, the 2.77 number was the 2022 estimate from the IMF for "Gross domestic product, current prices", in dollars. The decline, despite GDP growth, was caused by fluctuations in exchange rates.
 * I'm frankly unsure why we denominate anything in dollars, since it's not like the euro is a fringe currency that no one would be familiar with. I think any currency that's in the IMF SDR basket (dollar, euro, yen, yuan, pound) should be given as-is without conversion, and $ equivalents could be used for more "fringe" currencies. DFlhb (talk) 16:22, 17 March 2023 (UTC)